Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
Al Sparber wrote: ... then don't use an ancient DHTML menu that carries your links in a script file. Instead, use a modern menu that employs list-based markup and a script that visually and interactively enhances that markup, progressively and unobtrusively. Today's options in that area are many. Splurging every significant link in the site in a set of lists at the top of every page probably isn't ideal for the speed of the site, or its usability in browsers without JS (who wants to scroll through four screens of links on each page of a site)? Linking to category index pages is probably a better approach most of the time. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk Al Sparber wrote: ... then don't use an ancient DHTML menu that carries your links in a script file. Instead, use a modern menu that employs list-based markup and a script that visually and interactively enhances that markup, progressively and unobtrusively. Today's options in that area are many. Splurging every significant link in the site in a set of lists at the top of every page probably isn't ideal for the speed of the site, or its usability in browsers without JS (who wants to scroll through four screens of links on each page of a site)? Linking to category index pages is probably a better approach most of the time. I agree wholeheartedly. In the case of menu scripts we write, this is how we'd like to see folks who use our scripts deploy them: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm2/ug-examples/accessible/index.htm It's like those alcoholic beverage commercials where they end with a note to drink responsibly :-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] DHTML Menus
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus [snip] Take, for instance, a menu that depends on the user moving the mouse over the title to cause the menu to appear. Now approach it with a keyboard - there aren't any links (in their theoretical example) for the focus to go to, so the menu can't be used - even those the client supports JavaScript. Next approach it with a touch screen (on an iPhone for example). The client supports JS. The client can click. But the client can't hover the pointer over anything. It's broken again. Then there are other arguments again them: http://www.message.uk.com/index.php?page=81 [screen reader users] have no choice but to listen to the whole darn list I'm not sure the above argument is valid since it depends how the list items are hidden, as these two different examples show: - http://tjkdesign.com/articles/new_drop_down/ - http://tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/EK.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
From: Chris Dimmock chris.dimm...@gmail.com Q. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? A. 100% of search engine spiders. So if you don't want your site fully spidered. ... then don't use an ancient DHTML menu that carries your links in a script file. Instead, use a modern menu that employs list-based markup and a script that visually and interactively enhances that markup, progressively and unobtrusively. Today's options in that area are many. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
Q. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? A. 100% of search engine spiders. So if you don't want your site fully spidered. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
Kristine Cummins wrote: I’ve recently seen some arguments against the use of DHTML menus for accessibility issues. How much is this an issue…. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? Any other thoughts on the topic? DHTML menus is a very vague term. The tool doesn't matter so much as what you do with it. A menu which used JavaScript to change the background colour of the menu item when pointed at would qualify as a DHTML menu. It would be an inefficient way to do something that could be more easily achieved with CSS, but the term would still apply. I'm going to assume you are talking about drop down menus. It is entirely possible to create something that works without JavaScript progressively enhances (although there are some arguments about whether drop down menus are an 'enhancement' on websites, see below) when it is. It is also possible to create things that not only fail to work when JS isn't available, but sometimes fail to work when it is. Take, for instance, a menu that depends on the user moving the mouse over the title to cause the menu to appear. Now approach it with a keyboard - there aren't any links (in their theoretical example) for the focus to go to, so the menu can't be used - even those the client supports JavaScript. Next approach it with a touch screen (on an iPhone for example). The client supports JS. The client can click. But the client can't hover the pointer over anything. It's broken again. Then there are other arguments again them: http://www.message.uk.com/index.php?page=81 -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] DHTML Menus
Kristine, This link might provide some guidance (although query whether respondents to the survey were typical web users rather than experts): http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp Regards, Grant Bailey -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kristine Cummins Sent: Wednesday, 18 February 2009 6:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] DHTML Menus I've recently seen some arguments against the use of DHTML menus for accessibility issues. How much is this an issue.. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? Any other thoughts on the topic? Thanks, Kristine *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Kristine Cummins wrote: I've recently seen some arguments against the use of DHTML menus for accessibility issues. How much is this an issue.. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? Any other thoughts on the topic? It's hard to tell, but I have seen estimates from 10% to 20%. Because of the almost universal pop-up blockers, inconsiderate sites are using JavaScript to bypass them. This is likely to lead more people to turn off JS. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com = Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] DHTML Menus
From: Kristine Cummins des...@kristinecummins.com I've recently seen some arguments against the use of DHTML menus for accessibility issues. How much is this an issue.. What is the percentage of population that does not have javascript enabled? Any other thoughts on the topic? My thoughts have always leaned towards using them as an enhanced form of navigation that supplements a well-designed site, while not requiring that they be used as the sole means of navigation. Making this decision eliminates the need for Rube Goldberg-esque attempts at providing keyboard support and other means that try to emulate OS UI conventions, while always falling short. I would also recommend against using so-called pure CSS multi-level menus, such as Suckerfish as they are often more of an accessibility and usability problem than anything else. A visual illustration would be this mini test site: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm2/ug-examples/accessible/index.htm -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com The Finest Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/pop The Ultimate DW Menu System *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
