RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread Rowan Smith
I reckon this discussion is relevant here too. 

The one I'm struggling with at the moment is a form with Select Gender M /
F. It's a government web site so I'm trying to be careful.

Checkboxes are inappropriate. I could use a select with M and F but then
what for unspecified or don't want to answer or I just ignored that
question? Also, whatever is chosen takes 2 clicks. Unchecked radio buttons
are a very usable choice, you hit one or the other or neither and move on.
Mike said ...it is sometimes invalid communications/user interface to have
one and only one 'checked' item at all times.   I said, and still hold to
the view, that sometimes a form has to be presented with none of the radio
buttons 'checked'. I agree.

The standard (the HTML spec) says that's OK, and that's how we want it to
work for usability. All good.

But RFC1866 says the user agent should make the choice - user agent must
check the first radio button of the set initially. So some
standards-compliant browser is going to over-ride my standards-compliant
form and check one of the radio buttons? Isn't this a conflict between the
standards for UI and User Agent?



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Horner
Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 5:25 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

That's the relevance to standards - i.e. that if it's only standard if 
there is a default radio button and never valid if none of them are 
'checked' then the standard is wrong and ought to be changed.

I heartily agree, Mike.

Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread John Allsopp

I reckon this discussion is relevant here too.
The one I'm struggling with at the moment is a form with Select Gender 
M /
F. It's a government web site so I'm trying to be careful.

Checkboxes are inappropriate. I could use a select with M and F but 
then
what for unspecified or don't want to answer or I just ignored 
that
question? Also, whatever is chosen takes 2 clicks. Unchecked radio 
buttons
are a very usable choice, you hit one or the other or neither and move 
on.
Mike said ...it is sometimes invalid communications/user interface to 
have
one and only one 'checked' item at all times.   I said, and still hold 
to
the view, that sometimes a form has to be presented with none of the 
radio
buttons 'checked'. I agree.
What happens in this scenario
I check a radio button
Then I think, no, I don't want to check any of them
How do I uncheck the radio button checked without setting one of the 
others in the same group?

Reset the whole form?
So now, by supposedly giving me the option of not making a choice, you 
force me to make a choice.

Radio button groups exist for precisely the situation where there is 
one and only one option that must be chosen. That's how they have 
always worked.
The web has enough trouble with people inventing their own buttons, 
styling scrollbars with Microsoft's CSS like scrollbar style 
abominations, inventing their own scrollbars (why does every flash site 
have to do that?).

The UI conventions of the desktop have been around for a generation 
now. They represent the baseline of user expectations about how an 
interface should look, and work. Their appearance and behavior are 
burned deep into the unconscious of all computer users. Let's not keep 
reinventing the wheel.

HTML and the platforms on which our browsers run provide perfectly good 
UI widgets and behaviours that users are used to.

Now to try to be useful
In this scenario
The one I'm struggling with at the moment is a form with Select Gender 
M /
F. It's a government web site so I'm trying to be careful.

Checkboxes are inappropriate. I could use a select with M and F but 
then
what for unspecified or don't want to answer or I just ignored 
that
question? Also, whatever is chosen takes 2 clicks.
Yes, checkboxes are not appropriate, as there should be at most one 
answer. Two checkboxes could allow 2 answers.

What is wrong with a popup menu, the initial option being No answer 
and the other options Male and Female?

The UI itself tells them they need not answer. If you had radio 
buttons, you'd need a label that said you do not have to answer this 
question and then you have to hope the user sees it (whereas in the 
popup menu case, they see it while making the choice.)

And we also avoid the problem of them checking a radio button then not 
being able to uncheck it.

They also need only click once.
So it seems that in this case the popup menu is superior to misusing 
radio buttons.

John


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Horner
Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 5:25 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
That's the relevance to standards - i.e. that if it's only standard if
there is a default radio button and never valid if none of them are
'checked' then the standard is wrong and ought to be changed.
I heartily agree, Mike.

Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread Pringle, Ron

 Radio button groups exist for precisely the situation where there is 
 one and only one option that must be chosen. That's how they have 
 always worked.

John hit the nail on the head. If you come to a situation where you're
attempting to use radio buttons and the above does not apply, then you need
something other than radio buttons. Radio buttons are like on/off light
switches. The light switch is either on or its off.

1. If you're in a situation where you want a default value checked, but want
to allow the user to deselect it without inserting another value, use a
check box.

2. If you want a default value checked, but want to allow the user to
alternately choose a different value (up to four choices), then use a radio
button. More than four choices, use a select menu.

While it appears that the standards allow you to NOT assign a default value
to a radio button set, I'd say this is non-intuitive from a user experience
standpoint. Plus, a value will be chosen by the browser anyhow, if I'm
reading the previous posts correctly.

So in this specific situation, where the user is allowed to choose male,
female or no answer, number 2 above seems to be the most applicable. And
seeing as they are allowed to not specify gender, I would default to no
answer. Even if they might have provided an answer and simply forgot to,
you've signified that the answer is not important/relevant, so it shouldn't
make any difference to you if they willingly chose to specify gender or not.

HTH

Regards,
Ron
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread Mike Foskett

Ron, 

I agree with your summary except for More than four choices, use a select 
menu.

Surely it is better to show as many options as possible at the same time?
Stating four as a reasonable limit seems a little low.

Although with select inputs I would state Selects with less than 5 options 
should be coded as radio buttons it does not mean quite the same thing.



If anyone has a little spare time I'd appreciate comments / corrections on a 
proposed set of Accessible and usable form guidelines I've compiled: 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/ there's 17 of them so 
far. This has been a WIP since September.

I'm hoping to gain further clarity from this discussion over how best to define 
radio inputs and boolean choices.



mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
 





-Original Message-
From: Pringle, Ron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 February 2005 15:00
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)



 Radio button groups exist for precisely the situation where there is
 one and only one option that must be chosen. That's how they have 
 always worked.

John hit the nail on the head. If you come to a situation where you're 
attempting to use radio buttons and the above does not apply, then you need 
something other than radio buttons. Radio buttons are like on/off light 
switches. The light switch is either on or its off.

1. If you're in a situation where you want a default value checked, but want to 
allow the user to deselect it without inserting another value, use a check box.

2. If you want a default value checked, but want to allow the user to 
alternately choose a different value (up to four choices), then use a radio 
button. More than four choices, use a select menu.

While it appears that the standards allow you to NOT assign a default value to 
a radio button set, I'd say this is non-intuitive from a user experience 
standpoint. Plus, a value will be chosen by the browser anyhow, if I'm reading 
the previous posts correctly.

So in this specific situation, where the user is allowed to choose male, female 
or no answer, number 2 above seems to be the most applicable. And seeing as 
they are allowed to not specify gender, I would default to no answer. Even if 
they might have provided an answer and simply forgot to, you've signified that 
the answer is not important/relevant, so it shouldn't make any difference to 
you if they willingly chose to specify gender or not.

HTH

Regards,
Ron
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread Chris W. Parker
John Horner mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:06 PM said:

   1) Three radio buttons, one of them pre-selected for the value
 nothing or incorrect input -- the user is encouraged to select
 one of the other two and an error given by the script if they don't
 
   2) A select menu, with one option pre-selected for nothing as
 above. 
 
 The first seems kind of illogical to me, and the users will be more
 used to the second.

I decided to go with #2. The options being, -, Home, and Agency.



Chris.
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-02 Thread Chris Blown
On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 21:35, John Allsopp wrote:
 The UI conventions of the desktop have been around for a generation 
 now. They represent the baseline of user expectations about how an 
 interface should look, and work. Their appearance and behaviour are 
 burned deep into the unconscious of all computer users. Let's not keep 
 reinventing the wheel.

Well said John. This kind of mentality is the key to creating intuitive
interfaces that everyone can easily understand and use.

On the other hand, you could copy some of these..

Interface Hall of Shame
http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm

Regards
Chris Blown



  

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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Iain Gardiner
I think it's the good old checked=checked attribute that you add in your
default radio button's code.

HTH

Iain

--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris W. Parker
Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)


Hello,

Not sure if this is off topic or not, but let me know if it is.

I'm wondering what the suggested default state of a group of radio buttons
is? Let me use a current, specific example.

In a form I'm writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current options
are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what type of
mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've got neither option
being defaulted to. I know that radio buttons should have exactly one option
chosen at all times, but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a third
option of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the other.

How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet and have the options
default to one of the options (both options will probably be chosen an equal
amount of times, as has been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go to
a drop down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 'Agency'


Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris.
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Iain Gardiner
Oops, sorry I didn't really read your question thoroughly.  Surely an e-mail
address will be either a personal or a business address.  Personally I'd set
the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely option.

Iain

--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris W. Parker
Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)


Hello,

Not sure if this is off topic or not, but let me know if it is.

I'm wondering what the suggested default state of a group of radio buttons
is? Let me use a current, specific example.

In a form I'm writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current options
are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what type of
mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've got neither option
being defaulted to. I know that radio buttons should have exactly one option
chosen at all times, but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a third
option of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the other.

How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet and have the options
default to one of the options (both options will probably be chosen an equal
amount of times, as has been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go to
a drop down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 'Agency'


Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris.
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Chris W. Parker
Iain Gardiner mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:04 PM said:

 Oops, sorry I didn't really read your question thoroughly.  Surely an
 e-mail address will be either a personal or a business address. 
 Personally I'd set the default to personal as this seems to me the
 most likely option.

By mailing address I meant: postal mail. And by both options will
probably be chosen an equal amount of times, as has been the case in the
past I meant: Neither option is generally chosen more than the other.



Chris.
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Rowan Smith
I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is never there. Likewise, pre-set a control 
to option A and I'm equally likely to want option B. 

IMHO pre-setting options for the user (unless they're VERY obvious) is like 
making assumptions about them.

That said, RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is optional but then says At all times, 
exactly one of the radio buttons in a set is checked. If none of the INPUT 
elements of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED', then the user agent 
must check the first radio button of the set initially.

Does anybody know why one button has to be checked at all times in a 
circumstance like Chris referred to?

Thanks
Rowan



Quoting Iain Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Oops, sorry I didn't really read your question thoroughly. Surely an
 e-mail
 address will be either a personal or a business address. Personally I'd
 set
 the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely option.
 
 Iain
 
 --
 Iain Gardiner
 http://www.firelightning.com
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chris W. Parker
 Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
 
 
 Hello,
 
 Not sure if this is off topic or not, but let me know if it is.
 
 I'm wondering what the suggested default state of a group of radio
 buttons
 is? Let me use a current, specific example.
 
 In a form I'm writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current
 options
 are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what
 type of
 mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've got neither
 option
 being defaulted to. I know that radio buttons should have exactly one
 option
 chosen at all times, but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a
 third
 option of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the other.
 
 How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet and have the options
 default to one of the options (both options will probably be chosen an
 equal
 amount of times, as has been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go
 to
 a drop down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 'Agency'
 
 
 Your feedback is appreciated.
 
 Chris.
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 The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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 ** 
 The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Mike Kear
With radio buttons, no value is passed to the form's action page unless one
of the options is selected. This will normally cause an error in
the processing page unless special consideration is given to this
possibility.Normally if there are radio buttons on the form, it is
best to ensure that at least one option is
selected.CheersMike KearAFP Webworks Pty
LtdWindsor, NSW, Australiahttp://afpwebworks.comIndustrial
strength coldfusion, .asp, .asp.net, php hosting from A$15/month

- Original Message From:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: "wsg@webstandardsgroup.org"
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Default state of
radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)Date: 01/02/05 20:56I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is never
there. Likewise, pre-set a controlto option A and I'm equally likely to
want option B.IMHO pre-setting options for the user (unless they're
VERY obvious) is likemaking assumptions about them.That said,
RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is optional but then says "At all times,exactly
one of the radio buttons in a set is checked. If none of the
INPUTelements of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED',
then the user agentmust check the first radio button of the set
initially."Does anybody know why one button has to be checked "at
all times" in acircumstance like Chris referred
to?ThanksRowanQuoting Iain Gardiner
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oops, sorry I didn't really read
your question thoroughly. Surely an e-mail address will be
either a personal or a business address. Personally I'd set
the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely
option. Iain -- Iain
Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris W.
Parker Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe
OT?) Hello, Not sure if this is off
topic or not, but let me know if it is. I'm wondering what
the suggested default state of a group of radio buttons is?
Let me use a current, specific example. In a form I'm
writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current options
are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what
type of mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've
got neither option being defaulted to. I know that radio
buttons should have exactly one option chosen at all times,
but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a third option
of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the
other. How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet
and have the options default to one of the options (both options
will probably be chosen an equal amount of times, as has
been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go to a drop
down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3.
'Agency' Your feedback is
appreciated. Chris.
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discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Wybrow, Mark



Or pass hidden parameters onto the action page ... these 
then can be over ridden if the radio is selected

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike 
  KearSent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 2:51 AMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio 
  buttons. (Maybe OT?)
  With radio buttons, no value is passed to the form's action page 
  unless one of the options is selected. This will normally cause an 
  error in the processing page unless special consideration is given to this 
  possibility.Normally if there are radio buttons on the form, it is 
  best to ensure that at least one option is 
  selected.CheersMike KearAFP Webworks Pty LtdWindsor, 
  NSW, Australiahttp://afpwebworks.comIndustrial strength coldfusion, 
  .asp, .asp.net, php hosting from A$15/month
  
- Original Message From: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: "wsg@webstandardsgroup.org" 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Default state of 
radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)Date: 01/02/05 20:56I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is never 
there. Likewise, pre-set a controlto option A and I'm equally likely to 
want option B.IMHO pre-setting options for the user (unless they're 
VERY obvious) is likemaking assumptions about them.That said, 
RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is optional but then says "At all times,exactly 
one of the radio buttons in a set is checked. If none of the 
INPUTelements of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED', 
then the user agentmust check the first radio button of the set 
initially."Does anybody know why one button has to be checked "at 
all times" in acircumstance like Chris referred 
to?ThanksRowanQuoting Iain Gardiner 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oops, sorry I didn't really read 
your question thoroughly. Surely an e-mail address will be 
either a personal or a business address. Personally I'd set 
the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely 
option. Iain -- Iain 
Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com 
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris W. 
Parker Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe 
OT?) Hello, Not sure if this is off 
topic or not, but let me know if it is. I'm wondering what 
the suggested default state of a group of radio buttons is? 
Let me use a current, specific example. In a form I'm 
writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current options 
are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what 
type of mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've 
got neither option being defaulted to. I know that radio 
buttons should have exactly one option chosen at all times, 
but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a third option 
of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the 
other. How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet 
and have the options default to one of the options (both options 
will probably be chosen an equal amount of times, as has 
been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go to a drop 
down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 
'Agency' Your feedback is 
appreciated. Chris. 
 ** The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help 
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**  The 
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some hints on posting to the list  getting 
help**Message 
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Michael Cordover
IIRC though, while RFC 1866 says exactly one the checked attribute
is optional in W3C guidelines.

HTML 4.01 (and thus also the XHTML 1 series) state:
[http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#radio]
If no radio button in a set sharing the same control name is
initially on, user agent behavior for choosing which control is
initially on is undefined.

So if you leave them both undefined, some UAs will select the first,
some will select neither.  I can't see many doing anything else.  It's
not standards aversion and I can't see why that's not ok.  HTML4.01
spec goes on to say that authors should ensure one is selected by
default but I'm not sure why you need consistant behavior in this
case.

If worst comes to worst, just have whichever one comes first in the
page checked=checked.  You'll be inconveniancing roughly half the
people no matter which is checked by default.  If neither are then
it's the same inconvenience for everyone.

I guess I'm saying that I'd consider this a moot point - check
whichever you'd like and the user will deal with it.

Regards,

mjec


On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:54:31 +1100, Wybrow, Mark
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 Or pass hidden parameters onto the action page ... these then can be over
 ridden if the radio is selected
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mike Kear
 Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 2:51 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
 
  
 With radio buttons, no value is passed to the form's action page unless one
 of the options is selected.   This will normally cause an error in the
 processing page unless special consideration is given to this possibility.
 
 Normally if there are radio buttons on the form, it is best to ensure that
 at least one option is selected. 
 
 Cheers
 Mike Kear
 AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
 Windsor, NSW, Australia
 http://afpwebworks.com
 Industrial strength coldfusion, .asp, .asp.net, php hosting from A$15/month
  
  
 - Original Message 
 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
 Date: 01/02/05 20:56
 
 
 I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is never there. Likewise, pre-set a
 control
 to option A and I'm equally likely to want option B.
 
 IMHO pre-setting options for the user (unless they're VERY obvious) is like
 making assumptions about them.
 
 That said, RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is optional but then says At all times,
 exactly one of the radio buttons in a set is checked. If none of the INPUT
 elements of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED', then the user agent
 must check the first radio button of the set initially.
 
 Does anybody know why one button has to be checked at all times in a
 circumstance like Chris referred to?
 
 Thanks
 Rowan
 
 
 
 Quoting Iain Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  Oops, sorry I didn't really read your question thoroughly. Surely an
  e-mail
  address will be either a personal or a business address. Personally I'd
  set
  the default to personal as this seems to me the most likely option.
 
  Iain
 
  --
  Iain Gardiner
  http://www.firelightning.com
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Chris W. Parker
  Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
 
 
  Hello,
 
  Not sure if this is off topic or not, but let me know if it is.
 
  I'm wondering what the suggested default state of a group of radio
  buttons
  is? Let me use a current, specific example.
 
  In a form I'm writing I have one set of radio buttons. The current
  options
  are 'Home', or 'Agency'. The radio button is meant to designate what
  type of
  mailing address the customer has provided. Right now I've got neither
  option
  being defaulted to. I know that radio buttons should have exactly one
  option
  chosen at all times, but in this case it doesn't make sense to add a
  third
  option of 'None', or have the group default to one option or the other.
 
  How should I handle this? Should I bite the bullet and have the options
  default to one of the options (both options will probably be chosen an
  equal
  amount of times, as has been the case in the past)? Or maybe I should go
  to
  a drop down list with three options? 1. '-', 2. 'Home', 3. 'Agency'
 
 
  Your feedback is appreciated.
 
  Chris.
   **
  The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Chris W. Parker
Michael Cordover mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 2:51 PM said:

 IIRC though, while RFC 1866 says exactly one the checked attribute
 is optional in W3C guidelines.

[snip]

 I guess I'm saying that I'd consider this a moot point - check
 whichever you'd like and the user will deal with it.

Sounds good to me. Thanks!



Chris.
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Mike Kear
There are reasons why you might not want to select a 'default' on radio
buttons. It can distort your data.For example, if you have
option 1 checked as the default, and a user forgets to choose one of
the options, they're selecting option 1 anyway. This may be erroneous
data. (Or it may not matter in which case, do whatever you like). For
example in a survey, if youindicate any default answers, you are
automatically slanting the results, and if someone doesnt make a choice to a
question, they wont get a warning popup, instead they will have a selection
of your default entered. How will you know which of the results are
where users have selected option 1, and which are where they have forgotten
to give an answer at all?That's not to say you shouldn't use default
answers. I'm saying you shouldn't always use defaults just
because the 'normal' practice is to do so. If the radio button
gathers important data, another practice could well be to offer no defaults,
but instead show a warning or some kind if the user doesnt select one or the
other and force them to choose before you process the rest of the
form.CheersMike KearAFP Webworks Pty LtdWindsor, NSW,
Australia Http://afpwebworks.comIndustrial Strength hosting -
coldfusion, .asp, .asp.net, php from AUD$15/month

- Original Message From:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: "wsg@webstandardsgroup.org"
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Default state of
radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)Date: 01/02/05 22:53IIRC though, while RFC 1866 says "exactly one"
the checked attributeis optional in W3C guidelines.HTML 4.01
(and thus also the XHTML 1 series)
state:[http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#radio]If
no radio button in a set sharing the same control name isinitially "on",
user agent behavior for choosing which control isinitially "on" is
undefined.So if you leave them both undefined, some UAs will
select the first,some will select neither. I can't see many doing
anything else. It'snot standards aversion and I can't see why that's not
ok. HTML4.01spec goes on to say that authors should ensure one is
selected bydefault but I'm not sure why you need consistant behavior in
thiscase.If worst comes to worst, just have whichever one comes
first in thepage checked="checked". You'll be "inconveniancing" roughly
half thepeople no matter which is checked by default. If neither are
thenit's the same "inconvenience" for everyone.I guess I'm
saying that I'd consider this a moot point - checkwhichever you'd like
and the user will deal with it.Regards,mjecOn
Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:54:31 +1100, Wybrow,
Mark[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or pass
hidden parameters onto the action page ... these then can be over
ridden if the radio is selected
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Kear
Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 2:51 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe
OT?) With radio buttons, no value is passed to the
form's action page unless one of the options is selected. This will
normally cause an error in the processing page unless special
consideration is given to this possibility. Normally if
there are radio buttons on the form, it is best to ensure that at
least one option is selected. Cheers Mike
Kear AFP Webworks Pty Ltd Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com Industrial strength
coldfusion, .asp, .asp.net, php hosting from
A$15/month - Original Message
 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: "wsg@webstandardsgroup.org" wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?) Date:
01/02/05 20:56 I think this is like FAQs - my FAQ is
never there. Likewise, pre-set a control to option A and I'm
equally likely to want option B. IMHO pre-setting options
for the user (unless they're VERY obvious) is like making
assumptions about them. That said, RFC1866 says 'CHECKED' is
optional but then says "At all times, exactly one of the radio
buttons in a set is checked. If none of the INPUT elements
of a set of radio buttons specifies 'CHECKED', then the user agent
must check the first radio button of the set initially."
Does anybody know why one button has to be checked "at all times" in
a circumstance like Chris referred to?
Thanks Rowan Quoting Iain Gardiner
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:  Oops, sorry I didn't
really read your question thoroughly. Surely an  e-mail
 address will be either a personal or a business address. Personally
I'd  set  the default to personal as this seems to
me the most likely option.   Iain
  --  Iain Gardiner 
http://www.firelightning.com 
  -Original Message-  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On  Behalf Of Chris W.
Parker  Sent: 01 February 2005 19:12  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
   Hello,   Not su

Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Kornel Lesinski
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:24:35 -, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For example in a survey, if you indicate any default answers, you are  
automatically slanting the results, and if someone doesnt make a choice  
to a question, they wont get a warning popup, instead they will have a  
selection of your default entered. How will you know which of the  
results are where users have selected option 1, and which are where they  
have forgotten to give an answer at all?
Good surveys need don't know/prefer not to answer for every question and
that might be a good default.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
http://browsehappy.pl
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
I'm a bit baffled by this question -- in a way it's not about CSS or 
HTML or standards at all.

If you want to get good data from your form, and you have two radio 
buttons, then neither should be checked by default. Your CGI script 
or whatever should do the checking and return the form with you must 
select a button to proceed.

But should the browser really auto-select radio buttons for the user 
if none is selected? That seems like a very strange decision to me, 
and wouldn't allow your script to check the form as above.

So that argues that you should use a different kind of control, for 
instance a SELECT menu. The value of none can be the default, and 
your script can chuck an error if it sees none submitted.

   Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Mike Kear
Perhaps, Kornel, but in that case how to you tell the difference between
responses where people preferred not to say/didn't know (i.e. an answer to
the question), and where people didn't answer the question or didnt notice
it?There are cases where a default is a bad thing, and you need to
be able to handle forms with no answer, rather than providing a
default. In another example, providing a default may slant
your responses in favour of the default, because respondents think that's
the answer you're wanting. Ever-obliging they tend to give the answer
they think the questioner wants.--CheersMike
KearWindsor, NSW, AustraliaCertified Advanced ColdFusion
DeveloperAFP Webworkshttp://afpwebworks.comColdFusion, PHP, ASP,
ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month

- Original Message Good surveys need "don't know/prefer not to
answer" for every question andthat might be a good
default.--regards, Kornel LesiƱskihttp://browsehappy.pl


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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Allsopp
John,
If you want to get good data from your form, and you have two radio 
buttons, then neither should be checked by default. Your CGI script or 
whatever should do the checking and return the form with you must 
select a button to proceed.
the difference between a radio button set and checkboxes is (going way 
back to Mac UI guidelines in the 80s) is that a radio button group 
always has a value, and the values are mutually exclusive (you can't 
check two radio buttons in the same group), whereas checkboxes in a 
group can all be on, all be off, or any combination of on and off. It's 
a long time since I have done some intensive forms work, but IIRC, 
browsers generally managed this for you if you set up your radio button 
sets properly.

I know, its strictly off topic, but its about conventions, which are a 
kind of standard

john
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
At 11:36 AM +1100 2/2/05, John Allsopp wrote:
John,
the difference between a radio button set and checkboxes is (going 
way back to Mac UI guidelines in the 80s) is that a radio button 
group always has a value
[snip -- I did know the difference between checkboxes and radio buttons!]
If you're saying that a set of radio two or more buttons must always 
be shown with at least one pre-selected, i.e. as soon as the page 
loads, one is already selected, then there are only two options for 
the original poster to get good information from their form:

 1) Three radio buttons, one of them pre-selected for the value 
nothing or incorrect input -- the user is encouraged to select 
one of the other two and an error given by the script if they don't

 2) A select menu, with one option pre-selected for nothing as above.
The first seems kind of illogical to me, and the users will be more 
used to the second.

   Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Allsopp
John,
[snip -- I did know the difference between checkboxes and radio 
buttons!]
I was almost certain you did :-)
If you're saying that a set of radio two or more buttons must always 
be shown with at least one pre-selected, i.e. as soon as the page 
loads, one is already selected, then there are only two options for 
the original poster to get good information from their form:
Well, by convention, that is what radio buttons should do.
 1) Three radio buttons, one of them pre-selected for the value 
nothing or incorrect input -- the user is encouraged to select one 
of the other two and an error given by the script if they don't

 2) A select menu, with one option pre-selected for nothing as above.
If there are 4 or fewer responses, that is where radio buttons have 
traditionally been recommended. For more, popup menus.

I'd suggest a radio button with no response or some such, which is 
selected, and then the other two

The first seems kind of illogical to me, and the users will be more 
used to the second.
Given this limitation of radio buttons, I wonder why it has not turned 
up in UI discussion much. I've never seen it as an issue before 
(althoough I do see it as one in this instance)

j
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Chris Blown
I hesitantly suggest a good place for this discussion would be on Justin
French's Interface list.

http://lists.indent.com.au/mailman/listinfo/interface

Cheers
Chris Blown



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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread Mike Kear
Well I got involved in it because (i thought) someone said at the beginning
of this thread that it was only valid markup if a set of radio buttons had
one and only one 'checked' item.My point was that regardless of the
validity of the code, it is sometimes invalid communications/user interface
to have one and only one 'checked' item at all times. I said,
and still hold to the view, that sometimes a form has to be presented with
none of the radio buttons 'checked'.That's the relevance to
standards - i.e. that if it's only standard if there is a default radio
button and never valid if none of them are 'checked' then the standard is
wrong and ought to be changed.CheersMike KearWindsor,
NSW, AustraliaCertified Advanced ColdFusion DeveloperAFP
Webworkshttp://afpwebworks.comColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting
from AUD$15/month

- Original Message From:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: "WSG"
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Default state of
radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)Date: 02/02/05 03:56I hesitantly suggest a good place for this
discussion would be on JustinFrench's Interface list.http://lists.indent.com.au/mailman/listinfo/interfaceCheersChris
Blown


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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
That's the relevance to standards - i.e. that if it's only standard 
if there is a default radio button and never valid if none of them 
are 'checked' then the standard is wrong and ought to be changed.
I heartily agree, Mike.

   Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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