Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
You're right; innerHTML is much, much, MUCH faster to execute (see http:// www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html for numbers). It's also quicker to code and to implement. However it leaves you with less handles on the elements you're inserting, and 'feels' wrong (in the same way that sometimes a big table is the easiest way to centre content, but doesn't feel right), standards-wise. I'm a big fan of JS libraries. I use Prototype (and Script.aculo.us) and YUI quite a lot as the basis of a lot of my larger JS-based sites. The advantage of YUI isn't so much its ability to maintain strong standards, but its very strong cross-browser compatibility (so if you use Yahoo.DOM, you're getting a standard DOM across every browser; as with events, etc.). Prototype's biggest strength is its ability to keep common functions short and simple in your own code files. I can perform complex AJAX throughout a webapp with maybe three lines of JS (plenty of PHP, mind you). I've never really tried jQuery, because it's been marketed wrong for me. I've been using Javascript since ~1998 and have been doing things with it the old way (when everyone declared their variables on a global scope and functions were all called on the onclick, onmouseover events explicitly in code, and when anything fancy was called DHTML). I've spent the years since then developing my syntax and thinking to keep in line with the industry, and am comfortable with the syntax people have come to associate with new Javascript (Object notation, DOM manipulation, etc.). jQuery is marketed as a way to change JS syntax significantly (with a view to greater speed, marketed as a sort of Rails on the client side), which would mean a massive change for someone who already has four different programming/ scripting languages to flick between on a daily basis (not counting HTML and CSS syntax). I've heard only good things from people starting out with JS though. Cheers, Kit *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:23:04 +1000, Kit Grose wrote: [...] I'm a big fan of JS libraries. I use Prototype (and Script.aculo.us) and YUI quite a lot as the basis of a lot of my larger JS-based sites. The advantage of YUI isn't so much its ability to maintain strong standards, but its very strong cross-browser compatibility (so if you use Yahoo.DOM, you're getting a standard DOM across every browser; as with events, etc.). Prototype's biggest strength is its ability to keep common functions short and simple in your own code files. I can perform complex AJAX throughout a webapp with maybe three lines of JS (plenty of PHP, mind you). I've never really tried jQuery, because it's been marketed wrong for me. I've been using Javascript since ~1998 and have been doing things with it the old way (when everyone declared their variables on a global scope and functions were all called on the onclick, onmouseover events explicitly in code, and when anything fancy was called DHTML). I've spent the years since then developing my syntax and thinking to keep in line with the industry, and am comfortable with the syntax people have come to associate with new Javascript (Object notation, DOM manipulation, etc.). jQuery is marketed as a way to change JS syntax significantly (with a view to greater speed, marketed as a sort of Rails on the client side), which would mean a massive change for someone who already has four different programming/ scripting languages to flick between on a daily basis (not counting HTML and CSS syntax). I've heard only good things from people starting out with JS though. Just chiming in here to say that I think all of Kit's comments are right on the money. I was initially very attracted to jQuery because I am much more familiar with CSS syntax than JavaScript/ECMAScript. However, using it does not make me a better scripter, while YUI simply gives me cross-browser routines where I need them, so I can make better choices of technique as I learn the language. Protoype etc. I have yet to learn, but I understand the same thing is true. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? On 13/10/2007, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? If you want to absolutely follow standards, make sure you don't use any methods that wrap innerHTML. jQuery has one but it also has a bunch of methods that use the proper DOM methods (appendElement, removeElement, etc) so stick to the proper DOM methods and you will be fine. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Foss http://www.almostanything.com.au http://www.waterfallweb.net http://last.fm/user/rockyshark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? It's not an official W3C DOM method. When you fill the content of an element with innerHTML, the browser will render it but as far as I can remember, the content doesn't really exist properly within the DOM. The proper DOM methods, such as append, remove, etc. do build up the DOM properly. In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object. Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. * of the FACT. I can't write e-mails in the morning... -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even _use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up, before any possible JS modifications. Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their validation states based on JS interaction? :Dan Dorman *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Dan Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even _use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up, before any possible JS modifications. Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their validation states based on JS interaction? You are correct. But Simon was also talking about standards compliance, which includes using DOM standards. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object. In a way, but... Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. (I might well be talking out of my backside here in which case, feel free to shoot me down in flames...) IIRC the innerHTML methods are significantly faster than W3C DOM methods in current mainstream browsers. In most cases it won't make a lot of difference, but if you're pushing a large amount of data around the page, it can be very helpful. I'm not saying you should use innerHTML exclusively -- In most cases I still turn to W3C DOM methods. Sometimes though, IE will slow right down, and innerHTML can be a good way of extracting a bit more speed from it. -- Olly http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Hi Simon, jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I assume the same is true of YUI. - Andrew Ingram Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? *I LOVE those little green lights. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 12/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? JavaScript libraries do not by themselves put errors in your CSS or HTML, only you - the user - can do that. :) If you consider WCAG a web standard, then you need to make sure that your page is still accessible when scripts are turned off (or words to that effect). Read our article that Alfonso linked to for an example of how jQuery can be applied. -- Matthew Pennell // m: 07904 432123 // www.thewatchmakerproject.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Hi Simon,, I was just reading a very interesting article regarding jQuery: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/jquery_crash_course/ probably you can get some more information from there. Alfonso Catron On 10/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Simon, jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I assume the same is true of YUI. - Andrew Ingram Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? *I LOVE those little green lights. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 12/10/2007, Maarten stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not true. YUI is much more then a Javascript library, and it outputting alot of HTML and CSS could (possibly!) make it break your valid pages. My point was that YUI doesn't output any HTML on its own - it only does what you tell it to do. -- Matthew Pennell // m: 07904 432123 // www.thewatchmakerproject.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? If you want to absolutely follow standards, make sure you don't use any methods that wrap innerHTML. jQuery has one but it also has a bunch of methods that use the proper DOM methods (appendElement, removeElement, etc) so stick to the proper DOM methods and you will be fine. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
I haven't tried Yahoo's library, but jQuery is just great. I only use it lightly (getting DOM elements, applying classes etc), but its been very nice to work with so far. No code issues. Joseph R. B. Taylor - Sites by Joe, LLC Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design Phone: (609) 335-3076 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Simon, jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I assume the same is true of YUI. - Andrew Ingram Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? *I LOVE those little green lights. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 12/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? JavaScript libraries do not by themselves put errors in your CSS or HTML, only you - the user - can do that. :) Not true. YUI is much more then a Javascript library, and it outputting alot of HTML and CSS could (possibly!) make it break your valid pages. I am using YUI, its very nice, but i've only been using it for some small things and I did not yet validate them, and even if I had, it would not be a guarantee for other parts of the library. It *is* tested in alot of browsers for compatibility, which is maybe even more important then standards compliance (sorry...). regards, Maarten If you consider WCAG a web standard, then you need to make sure that your page is still accessible when scripts are turned off (or words to that effect). Read our article that Alfonso linked to for an example of how jQuery can be applied. -- Matthew Pennell // m: 07904 432123 // www.thewatchmakerproject.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Can you comment on Ext JS ? http://extjs.com/ I'd been wanting to know how it measure up with standards but thought this is not a place to ask, but where is the better place to get a better answer regarding standards? :) tee On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:56 AM, Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
