Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Just a note that most users don't know that you can use enter to submit. But they'll be darned surprised when they're used to a site that overrides that behaviour and then go out into the wild wild web. But yes, in this particular scenario (intranet type app, replicating a specific data entry mode from access), I'd also agree that it's fine (maybe adding a note in a help/about page could also be of use). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
I would advise your client against this behaviour as it will not only cause user confusion but also conflicts with the default behaviour of the form. Darren On 27/02/07, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick Can't offer you technical help Nick, however I think it is your duty to tell your client this is a terrible idea. The behaviour they describe is useless (already fulfilled by the tab button), and their desire to have the enter button perform the same function is completely irrational. Even if they find it better to use the enter key, no-one else will expect this. Indeed it is incredibly counter-intuitive because everybody who uses a keyboard will have very strong notions about what these key buttons' functions are. To ask them to remap them for your site on whimsy is suicidal. And besides, what would replace the enter key? Tab? If you go ahead with this for whatever reasons, I suggest a JavaScript alert on pageload that warns the user as to the fundamental breach of convention that runs on your pages. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
On 27 Feb 2007, at 12:38:19, Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. I would say that the main issue is that the Enter key is used to submit a form. When I fill in a form, I usually Tab from field to field and, when at the end, hit Enter to submit it. There's no way I would be pleased to find the expected behaviour was broken. The implication is that I would be expected to actually move my hands away from the keyboard to use the mouse to submit the form, which is downright annoying. On the other hand, if this is an intranet or extranet app with a limited user base, you might be able to get away with it. But as a general rule, changing the standard behaviour of the browser is an appallingly bad idea. If they insist on doing it that way, the best approach is probable to attach an onkeypress handler to the form in the onload event, or some suitable ondomcontentloaded event if the page is heavy with graphics. The event handler should be able to work out which element had the focus when the enter key was pressed, and work out which field to move focus to. Then it has to cancel the default action (i.e. submitting the form) - this works differently cross-browser, so check out existing libraries for preventDefault to make sure you cover all the cases. By the way, what happens if one hits Enter when the focus is on a checkbox or radio button? In particular, with a set of radio buttons, would it move focus to the next button in the group, or would it move to the next control that wasn't a member of the group? Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Hi! Nick Fitzsimons: I would say that the main issue is that the Enter key is used to submit a form. When I fill in a form, I usually Tab from field to field and, when at the end, hit Enter to submit it. There's no way I would be pleased to find the expected behaviour was broken. The implication is that I would be expected to actually move my hands away from the keyboard to use the mouse to submit the form, which is downright annoying. You could implement this so that when pressing the Enter key in the last form field, the focus moves to the submit button. But it won't work any good with multiple submit buttons, of course. And it's better not to change the Enter key behavoiur in the first place :-) /AndersN *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick I have to agree with Darren and Barney, it is an astoundingly anti- user proposal, as you present it. But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Hi! Nick Roper: A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. If your customer wants to avoid that users submit the form by mistake by pressing the Enter key, you could add a confirm dialog to the form submit event. /AndersN *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
On 2/27/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about the fact that many data entry programs use enter to move between fields? It is actually quite common in very heavy data-centric applications. Yes, but the convention in browsers is still to use the tab key. Besides, in browsers you can press shift + tab (or w/e the Mac equivalent is) to move backwards... how will this be done with enter? shift + enter? Does your client even know that you can tab through form fields? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Many thanks to all for the feedback so far. The general consensus certainly seems to be that use of the Enter key is not a good idea, and I totally accept the reasons put forward. Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. I probably should have made all this clearer in my original post. Would the group consider the request more reasonable in these circumstances - perhaps if it is made clear that this is non-standard behaviour that should only be introduced on the non-public areas, or are there still strong reasons for avoiding? If so, then I'm quite happy to tell the client. Nick Chris Williams wrote: How about the fact that many data entry programs use enter to move between fields? It is actually quite common in very heavy data-centric applications. *From: *Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Subject: *Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
It's not my client... it is Nick's. I'm just saying that for decades, heavy data entry programs have used enter to move between fields, and yes, shift-enter to move back. If they are converting an existing app to use a browser, the client may well prefer to change the app, not the 100 users... which users may NEVER use the browser/computer for anything other than this app. -Original Message- From: Christian Montoya Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields Yes, but the convention in browsers is still to use the tab key. Besides, in browsers you can press shift + tab (or w/e the Mac equivalent is) to move backwards... how will this be done with enter? shift + enter? Does your client even know that you can tab through form fields? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
You're gonna shoot yourself in the foot if you go one step further without diving as deep as possible into answering the question why does he want this? If you're making something that looks like a web form on a web page to be accessed by web users, then it's pretty clearly folley - a short test with some users will bear this out. Do it in front of your insistent client and he'll have a hard time disagreeing with you. If you're making something that looks like a tax-form wizard on an interactive/business application that just happens to be delivered via a browser and is targeted at people with 30 years of data-entry experience, then the same test will reveal that having their form submit when they hit enter (instead of moving between data fields) will be a terrible usability burden. Know thy user as thy self =) Either way you'll have a difficult time overiding the default behavior of a browser, so you better count on needing javascript enabled (and a healthy testing budget) to develop this behavior. When you get down to it, it's not that hard to implement with some keypress listeners. The idea about a confirmation dialog (while not-efficient) seemed a good one, when used as part of a smooth degredation scheme. /bd On 2/27/07, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick I have to agree with Darren and Barney, it is an astoundingly anti-user proposal, as you present it. But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
This is actually the kind of scenario I expected you to describe (and I didn't mean to sound as snide as my fascinated comment looks). It would seem to turn on the client's/users preferences and expectations. If as Chris notes users may NEVER use the browser/ computer for anything other than this app then you might be best off going with the Enter key option. I would discuss with the client, and if possible a representative user or three, the various trade offs: Browser default behavior vs. legacy app behavior Cost of implementation vs cost of teaching new user behavior etc. It may for instance be cheaper to retrain the existing user base than to train each new future user, especially as it is probable that more future users will be used to web forms in general... Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. On Feb 27, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the feedback so far. The general consensus certainly seems to be that use of the Enter key is not a good idea, and I totally accept the reasons put forward. Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. I probably should have made all this clearer in my original post. Would the group consider the request more reasonable in these circumstances - perhaps if it is made clear that this is non- standard behaviour that should only be introduced on the non-public areas, or are there still strong reasons for avoiding? If so, then I'm quite happy to tell the client. Nick Chris Williams wrote: How about the fact that many data entry programs use enter to move between fields? It is actually quite common in very heavy data- centric applications. - --- *From: *Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Subject: *Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
At the risk of taking this completely OT, I might ask those of you who are incredulous of the use of the enter key to move between fields to take a look at the number keypad way over on the right hand side of a full-sized keyboard. Notice the enter key there? Imagine yourself keying in numbers all day and ask yourself if the tab key (at the exact opposite end of the keyboard) or the enter key (merely a pinky finger away) is the most efficient way to move between fields... Finally, imagine flipping through the pile of data to enter with your left hand, keying with your right hand, and you have your answer: a very efficient (albeit stunningly boring) way to work. -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
On 27 Feb 2007, at 18:49:34, Nick Roper wrote: Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. This is, in fact, one of the few cases when it can be worth doing this. Have a look at http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/tests/javascript/entertest.html which should do something similar to what you want. Some notes: 0. It uses a window.onload handler, so that would need to be integrated with any existing/later code. 1. It uses DOM Level 0 event handler properties, rather than mucking about with attachEvent/addEventHandler and so forth. 2. This assumes (in the window.onload handler) that the form has an id attribute of testForm; change that as needed. 3. It also assumes that every text input has an id attribute; note that these must be unique (within the page). 4. It only sets event handling for text input fields (input type=text); you can remove or modify the check in the function getInputFieldIds if you want, though I haven't tested across browsers what will happen with other kinds of input field. 5. It tries to avoid creating closures over DOM elements, in order to prevent memory leaks, particularly in IE. (As to whether or not it succeeds...) 6. It makes no assumptions about the number of elements in the form, nor about the form of the element ids, other than that they exist and are unique within the page. 7. It doesn't set any handler on the last field; this means that, when Enter is pressed in that field, the form is submitted. The last can be changed to switch focus to a submit button if the test in getInputFields is modified and the button comes after the other fields, as is usually the case. The script would be better off in a separate file rather than being in the page, but it's just a quick demo :-) Tested in Firefox 1.5.0.10/Mac, Safari 2.0.4/Mac and IE6/Win. HTH, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Very many thanks indeed to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and to Nick F and others who have contributed examples. I have a meeting with the client next week and will make sure that the various points that have been raised are discussed and considered before making any decisions. I'm going to be away for a couple of days now, so will follow up on any further posts when I'm back. Thanks again. Nick Roper Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 27 Feb 2007, at 18:49:34, Nick Roper wrote: Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. This is, in fact, one of the few cases when it can be worth doing this. Have a look at http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/tests/javascript/entertest.html which should do something similar to what you want. Some notes: 0. It uses a window.onload handler, so that would need to be integrated with any existing/later code. 1. It uses DOM Level 0 event handler properties, rather than mucking about with attachEvent/addEventHandler and so forth. 2. This assumes (in the window.onload handler) that the form has an id attribute of testForm; change that as needed. 3. It also assumes that every text input has an id attribute; note that these must be unique (within the page). 4. It only sets event handling for text input fields (input type=text); you can remove or modify the check in the function getInputFieldIds if you want, though I haven't tested across browsers what will happen with other kinds of input field. 5. It tries to avoid creating closures over DOM elements, in order to prevent memory leaks, particularly in IE. (As to whether or not it succeeds...) 6. It makes no assumptions about the number of elements in the form, nor about the form of the element ids, other than that they exist and are unique within the page. 7. It doesn't set any handler on the last field; this means that, when Enter is pressed in that field, the form is submitted. The last can be changed to switch focus to a submit button if the test in getInputFields is modified and the button comes after the other fields, as is usually the case. The script would be better off in a separate file rather than being in the page, but it's just a quick demo :-) Tested in Firefox 1.5.0.10/Mac, Safari 2.0.4/Mac and IE6/Win. HTH, Nick. --Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Nick, Data-centric applications also usually allow you to use the arrow keys to navigate around a form, this behavior could fairly easily be replicated with a bit of careful planning. I don't think that Access forms support that but it would be a nice exchange, loose the enter in exchange for arrows. Cheers, Steve. Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the feedback so far. The general consensus certainly seems to be that use of the Enter key is not a good idea, and I totally accept the reasons put forward. Just to clarify things a bit, this is indeed and intra/extranet based application. In fact the project is to convert an existing Access database application to a web-based PHP/MySQL application that can be accessed remotely via a secure login. A few admin users will be able to enter update data via forms, whilst others will be able to select/view information and reports. It would only be the admin users that would possibly have the facility to use the Enter key - which is what they do with the current system. As Chris points out, the use of the Enter key is quite common in data-centric applications (which this is) and the users are used to using the Enter key for that purpose. I probably should have made all this clearer in my original post. Would the group consider the request more reasonable in these circumstances - perhaps if it is made clear that this is non-standard behaviour that should only be introduced on the non-public areas, or are there still strong reasons for avoiding? If so, then I'm quite happy to tell the client. Nick Chris Williams wrote: How about the fact that many data entry programs use enter to move between fields? It is actually quite common in very heavy data-centric applications. *From: *Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Subject: *Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Just a note that most users don't know that you can use enter to submit. Brian Duchek wrote: You're gonna shoot yourself in the foot if you go one step further without diving as deep as possible into answering the question why does he want this? If you're making something that looks like a web form on a web page to be accessed by web users, then it's pretty clearly folley - a short test with some users will bear this out. Do it in front of your insistent client and he'll have a hard time disagreeing with you. If you're making something that looks like a tax-form wizard on an interactive/business application that just happens to be delivered via a browser and is targeted at people with 30 years of data-entry experience, then the same test will reveal that having their form submit when they hit enter (instead of moving between data fields) will be a terrible usability burden. Know thy user as thy self =) Either way you'll have a difficult time overiding the default behavior of a browser, so you better count on needing javascript enabled (and a healthy testing budget) to develop this behavior. When you get down to it, it's not that hard to implement with some keypress listeners. The idea about a confirmation dialog (while not-efficient) seemed a good one, when used as part of a smooth degredation scheme. /bd On 2/27/07, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick I have to agree with Darren and Barney, it is an astoundingly anti-user proposal, as you present it. But perhaps your customer has some convincing rationale for wanting to do this? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to hear it. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
