Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-11 Thread Andrew Harris

Tim,
if there's no sandwiches, I'm not going.

... ;-)

seriously though, I think you have a point, but I don't think your
approach will achieve anything. It's like howling at the developers of
IE because they were part of a team that brought us a dodgy browser.
There are many many good folk building websites at universities and
WANAU is one way that they can share their ideas... but, by and large,
these are not the people who hold the purse strings and call the shots
when it comes to developing big university systems, so there is no use
ranting at them and alienating them.

You condemn the Griffith page apparently on the basis of a URL that
contains unescaped ampersands. I know at Melbourne University, we have
had systems that simply would not recognise escaped ampersands in
links (haven't checked that one for a while), so we were forced to
leave links invalid. These are not little systems - to upgrade or
change vendor would cost many many millions of dollars.

Not valid and therefore, strictly speaking, not accessible. Still, I
couldn't be 100% certain, but I'd take a guess that no-one apart from
the validator cared or even noticed.

--
Andrew Harris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.woowoowoo.com


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-11 Thread Tim

Thanks Andrew for correcting me and you too Russ.

Was I ranting or being prejudiced against sandwiches as a metaphor for 
procrastination? The latter I thought. Sorry. I don't mind being 
alienated if a scape goat is required.


If there were a page of Aust uni reviews detailing errors in each one 
it would be a negative reinforcement and potential legal liability that 
the holders of the Uni budget will be forced to consider.


Not the old case of the forced to use unescaped ampersands!
When will they ever learn?  A page of reviews would help those of you 
forced to include invalid links in your html.


Your Melb Uni page validates nicely.

Tim

On 11/04/2007, at 3:05 PM, Andrew Harris wrote:


Tim,
if there's no sandwiches, I'm not going.

... ;-)

seriously though, I think you have a point, but I don't think your
approach will achieve anything. It's like howling at the developers of
IE because they were part of a team that brought us a dodgy browser.
There are many many good folk building websites at universities and
WANAU is one way that they can share their ideas... but, by and large,
these are not the people who hold the purse strings and call the shots
when it comes to developing big university systems, so there is no use
ranting at them and alienating them.

You condemn the Griffith page apparently on the basis of a URL that
contains unescaped ampersands. I know at Melbourne University, we have
had systems that simply would not recognise escaped ampersands in
links (haven't checked that one for a while), so we were forced to
leave links invalid. These are not little systems - to upgrade or
change vendor would cost many many millions of dollars.

Not valid and therefore, strictly speaking, not accessible. Still, I
couldn't be 100% certain, but I'd take a guess that no-one apart from
the validator cared or even noticed.

--
Andrew Harris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.woowoowoo.com


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-11 Thread Ben Buchanan

Hi Tim,

I'd say Universities are probably aware of the issues with their
sites, they just don't have a magic wand to wave to get everything
fixed. Universities have massive amounts of information to provide and
generally a minimal budget to provide it. Despite that, they are held
to very high standards and are a soft target for complaints.


What about a page on Australian Universities similar to
what I have done for aus.gov.au sites.


Australian Universities have in fact been surveyed before (eg.
http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw03/papers/alexander3/) and the results are
an excellent bargaining chip to promote accessibility issues
internally.

It needs to be a dispassionate review though. Trust me, screaming at
people over validation results won't get the results you want.

The Griffith site that you so casually dismiss over some unescaped
characters actually took a lot of work from a dedicated team. There
was no big budget and no CMS to help, but there were some 100,000+
files to manage and transition (through several iterations) from
tables+frames to semantic markup.

In such situations priorities are set. Perfect validation comes in as
a lower priority than, say, getting rid of framesets; adding visible
skip links; and adding display preference settings.


Wouldn't that be of practical value to shame Aust
universities not up to scratch, rather than chatting
and more sandwiches?


Perhaps you're underestimating the value of knowledge sharing
(chatting and sandwiches) to under-resourced university staff :)

People may not have the budget to buy huge IT solutions, but they can
go to WANAU and brainstorm with other people in the same boat. Frankly
just having other people to talk to can make all the difference, keeps
people enthused and working towards their goals.

Were the outcomes of the WANAU forum concrete and measurable? Some
were, some weren't. It's a valuable activity either way.

cheers,

Ben


--
--- http://www.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-11 Thread Katrina

Tim wrote:



Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004.

I can only add that as a university student of South Australia, I 
enrolled in and enjoyed Denise Wood's Accessible Interactive Media where 
all sorts of accessibility was included (eg. captions on video clips for 
the Internet, keyboard accessibility for Flash, etc.).


What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? Denise Wood is 
the South Australian representative of WANAU.


That's what she does :) She teaches uni students to be very careful in 
accessibility, not just in this specialised course, but in all courses 
she teaches.


Actually, she is really good at it :)

Kat


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Michael Wood

WANAU has been an invaluable leader in promoting accessibility issues in
policies within Universities for some years now. Their site used to be
self-explanatory. Haven't been involved for some time but they are very
deserving of your help - very practical pioneers on this issue.
Michael

Michael Wood
Repository Manager
La Trobe University Library Bundoora VIC 3086 Australia
ph: +61 3 9479 5173
fax: +61 3 9479 3018
mob: +61 402 969 863
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 4/11/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...

*http://www.wanau.org/site.html*

They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in online
teaching at UQ where I work, and we've been asked to help ... :)

I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any
feedback!

Cheers
Susie

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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Lucien Stals
I haven't heard of them, but I'd certainly be interested in finding out more 
about them.

I work at Swinburne Uni (in Melbourne), and I'm pushing for more accessibility 
within the sites I'm responsible for.

Feel free to email me off the mailing list if need be.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Thanks,

Lucien.

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


 On 11/04/2007 at 9:41 am, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...
 
 http://www.wanau.org/site.html 
 
 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in online
 teaching at UQ where I work, and we¹ve been asked to help ... :)
 
 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any feedback!
 
 Cheers
 Susie
 
 
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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Adeline Yaw




Hi Susie, 

I haven't heard of this group before but I have gone through the
website and it looks like something that's needed esp. among
Universities.
I am definitely interested in attending the Sydney event in May.

Sydney Uni are actually having a web forum this afternoon for all CMS
users and I will definitely mention this site and at least
get people on board the mailing list.

-- 


signature 10.8.06
Best regards,
Adeline Yaw

Administrative Assistant 
Centre for Physical Activity
 Health
Level 2, Medical Foundation Building,
K25 
University of Sydney NSW 2006
t: +61 2 9036 3193 | f: +61 2 9036
3184
www.cpah.health.usyd.edu.au






Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:

  WANAU - anyone heard of them?
  Web Accessibility Network for Australian
Universities ...
  
  http://www.wanau.org/site.html 
  
They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in
online teaching at UQ where I work, and weve been asked to help ... :)
  
I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any
feedback!
  
Cheers
Susie
  
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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Tim

On 11/04/2007, at 9:41 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:


Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...

http://www.wanau.org/site.html

 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in 
online teaching at UQ where I work, and we’ve been asked to help ... 
:)


 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any 
feedback!


 Cheers
 Susie
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Don't be conned Susie,

Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004.
Where was it held last year? Who attended last year?

I bet they are selling training courses, seen in links to a business 
case on the W3C site..
Funny that they are from RMIT yet there is no action at their own 
University. Multiple page errors. Fix your own Uni pages first.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmit.edu.au%2F

They do have a few different stylesheets, but the changes between them 
are minor colour changes.
I thought Dey Alexander was working with Vision Australia who to me 
seem to accept low government standards to get training contracts from 
AGIMO.


Following  Maquire v Sydney Olympics, who does any legal advocation for 
the blind apart from myself?
This group may want to sell you training contracts. 
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html#visaust


Bloody hell I work hard on testing Australian sites including 
Universities who should know better, what is WANAU, what have they 
done. With a few dollars funding I could review all Australian 
Universities and have a reference page showing those who fail and why, 
what else do you need, fund me to complete a review of University 
webpages and forget the talkfest.


Australian sites are in a bad way, few Universities know what 
accessibility is.

http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html
ANU fails
RMIT fails
Sydney Fail
Swinburne fails

I have done dozens reviews of Australian government websites and 
advocated a legal position to HREOC. what has WANAU done apart from 
make a few webpages?


Yours Faithfully

Tim Anderson
The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Tim

Pioneers,

Not in making their own sites accessible.
Don't make me laugh.

Tim

On 11/04/2007, at 10:02 AM, Michael Wood wrote:

WANAU has been an invaluable leader in promoting accessibility issues 
in policies within Universities for some years now. Their site used to 
be self-explanatory. Haven't been involved for some time but they are 
very deserving of your help - very practical pioneers on this issue.

Michael

Michael Wood           
Repository Manager     
La Trobe University Library Bundoora VIC 3086 Australia
ph: +61 3 9479 5173
fax: +61 3 9479 3018
mob: +61 402 969 863
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 4/11/07, Susie Gardner-Brown  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Web 
Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...


 http://www.wanau.org/site.html

 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in 
online teaching at UQ where I work, and we've been asked to help ... 
:)


 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any 
feedback!


 Cheers
 Susie

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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Ben Buchanan

Hi Susie,


 Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...
 http://www.wanau.org/site.html
 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in online
teaching at UQ where I work, and we've been asked to help ... :)
 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any
feedback!


WANAU has been around for a few years now and the forums are great. Of
course I may be biased since I ran the 2005 forum at Griffith ;)

Basically WANAU is there to connect university-based web professionals
and allow knowledge sharing, events, etc. Universities have
accessibility challenges which often require different approaches than
those encountered in the commercial sector; so WANAU provides a great
way to get people together to discuss the issues.

Well worth being involved if you're a web professional at a uni! :)

cheers,

Ben

--
--- http://www.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Tim

What are the forums great for? Sandwiches and a chat!
What is the concrete result of the forums?
For example did Griffith Uni gain anything from the 2005 sandwich fest.
It does not appear there was any benefit to Griffith Uni students.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.griffith.edu.au%2F

Tim

On 11/04/2007, at 11:54 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote:


Hi Susie,


 Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...
 http://www.wanau.org/site.html
 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in 
online

teaching at UQ where I work, and we've been asked to help ... :)
 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any
feedback!


WANAU has been around for a few years now and the forums are great. Of
course I may be biased since I ran the 2005 forum at Griffith ;)

Basically WANAU is there to connect university-based web professionals
and allow knowledge sharing, events, etc. Universities have
accessibility challenges which often require different approaches than
those encountered in the commercial sector; so WANAU provides a great
way to get people together to discuss the issues.

Well worth being involved if you're a web professional at a uni! :)

cheers,

Ben

--
--- http://www.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Susie Gardner-Brown
Thanks everyone for your responses! I'd never heard of them before - they
obviously haven't had a presence at UQ to date.

Looks like I (and my department) will be getting involved, which is great!

Cheers
susie


On 11/4/07 11:54 AM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Susie,
 
  Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...
  http://www.wanau.org/site.html
  They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in online
 teaching at UQ where I work, and we've been asked to help ... :)
  I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any
 feedback!
 
 WANAU has been around for a few years now and the forums are great. Of
 course I may be biased since I ran the 2005 forum at Griffith ;)
 
 Basically WANAU is there to connect university-based web professionals
 and allow knowledge sharing, events, etc. Universities have
 accessibility challenges which often require different approaches than
 those encountered in the commercial sector; so WANAU provides a great
 way to get people together to discuss the issues.
 
 Well worth being involved if you're a web professional at a uni! :)
 
 cheers,
 
 Ben



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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Jonathan O'Donnell

Hi Tim

The Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities (WANAU) is  
a volunteer group with no formal structure (that I know of), much  
like Web Standards Group.  It seeks to promote Web accessibility  
within Australian universities.


They run a mailing list [1], forums at universities [2] and generally  
have a 'birds of a feather' meeting at OZeWAI [3] and possibly other  
conferences, like AusWeb.
WANAU is not from RMIT, although WANAU's 2007 Victorian forum was  
held at RMIT. [4] I helped organise it and I chaired it.  It was well  
attended, with almost 100 people attending from most (if not all)  
Victorian universities.  People seemed to like it.


WANAU do not sell training courses.  They don't sell anything, actually.

Dey Alexander is an independent consultant. [5]  She used to work for  
Monash University.  She probably has worked with Vision Australia in  
the past. She has completed one review of Australian university Web  
sites, similar to what you describe [6], and is currently undertaking  
a second, to update the findings of the first review.  The results  
will be presented this year at AusWeb. [7]


[1] WANAU mailing list: http://www.wanau.org/list.html
[2] WANAU forums: http://www.wanau.org/forums2007/
[3] OZeWAI conference: http://www.ozewai.org/
[4]	2007 Victorian WANAU forum: http://www.wanau.org/forums2007/ 
melbourne.html

[5] Dey Alexander Consulting: http://www.deyalexander.com/
[6]	Alexander Dey, 30 Jan 2004, How Accessible Are Australian  
University Web Sites?, Ariadne 38,  http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/ 
issue38/web-watch/

[7] AusWeb: http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/

--
Jonathan O'Donnell
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://purl.nla.gov.au/net/jod
+61 4 2575 5829


On 11/04/2007, at 11:38 AM, Tim wrote:



On 11/04/2007, at 9:41 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:


Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...

http://www.wanau.org/site.html

 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in  
online teaching at UQ where I work, and we’ve been asked to  
help ... :)


 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in  
any feedback!


 Cheers
 Susie
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Don't be conned Susie,

Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004.
Where was it held last year? Who attended last year?

I bet they are selling training courses, seen in links to a  
business case on the W3C site..
Funny that they are from RMIT yet there is no action at their own  
University. Multiple page errors. Fix your own Uni pages first.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmit.edu.au%2F

They do have a few different stylesheets, but the changes between  
them are minor colour changes.
I thought Dey Alexander was working with Vision Australia who to me  
seem to accept low government standards to get training contracts  
from AGIMO.


Following  Maquire v Sydney Olympics, who does any legal advocation  
for the blind apart from myself?
This group may want to sell you training contracts. http:// 
www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html#visaust


Bloody hell I work hard on testing Australian sites including  
Universities who should know better, what is WANAU, what have they  
done. With a few dollars funding I could review all Australian  
Universities and have a reference page showing those who fail and  
why, what else do you need, fund me to complete a review of  
University webpages and forget the talkfest.


Australian sites are in a bad way, few Universities know what  
accessibility is.

http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html
ANU fails
RMIT fails
Sydney Fail
Swinburne fails

I have done dozens reviews of Australian government websites and  
advocated a legal position to HREOC. what has WANAU done apart from  
make a few webpages?


Yours Faithfully

Tim Anderson
The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

2007-04-10 Thread Tim

Thanks Jonathan,

They don't sell anything is a good sign, Please pardon my cynical 
impatience for action.
I believe that the only real magic is taking action to promote or even 
legally (1992 DDA) force change.


Shame them and name them, show their validation errors and 
accessibility flaws.
Just don't have too many cucumber sandwiches chatting is my cynical 
view.
For example See my review of the AGIMO award winning sites, a cucumber 
sandwich festival.


My review of Australian UK and USA sites does differ from others?
1) It never finishes and is always being updated.
2) It is a longitudinal study exposing W3C flaws with links anyone can 
follow to detail the errors.

3) It details errors and accessibility features that could be used

What about a page on Australian Universities similar to what I have 
done for aus.gov.au sites.


Wouldn't that be of practical value to shame Aust universities not up 
to scratch, rather than chatting and more sandwiches?
Not just a study which concludes things are not up to scratch, but a 
page detailing errors and improvement which could be made.
Tell me a page on Australian university reviews like my other reviews 
is not needed but more sandwiches are.


Australian government web sites
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html
USA sites
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/USAweb.html
UK sites
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/UKweb.html
Results
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/Results.html
Study  design
http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/WebSurvey.html

Bring academic studies into the real internet world, make them 
available over the web, with suggestions and W3C validation links, help 
the Universities with constructive criticism. No more sandwiches.


Tim

On 11/04/2007, at 12:32 PM, Jonathan O'Donnell wrote:


Hi Tim

The Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities (WANAU) is a 
volunteer group with no formal structure (that I know of), much like 
Web Standards Group.  It seeks to promote Web accessibility within 
Australian universities.


They run a mailing list [1], forums at universities [2] and generally 
have a 'birds of a feather' meeting at OZeWAI [3] and possibly other 
conferences, like AusWeb.
WANAU is not from RMIT, although WANAU's 2007 Victorian forum was held 
at RMIT. [4] I helped organise it and I chaired it.  It was well 
attended, with almost 100 people attending from most (if not all) 
Victorian universities.  People seemed to like it.


WANAU do not sell training courses.  They don't sell anything, 
actually.


Dey Alexander is an independent consultant. [5]  She used to work for 
Monash University.  She probably has worked with Vision Australia in 
the past. She has completed one review of Australian university Web 
sites, similar to what you describe [6], and is currently undertaking 
a second, to update the findings of the first review.  The results 
will be presented this year at AusWeb. [7]


[1] WANAU mailing list: http://www.wanau.org/list.html
[2] WANAU forums: http://www.wanau.org/forums2007/
[3] OZeWAI conference: http://www.ozewai.org/
[4]	2007 Victorian WANAU forum: 
http://www.wanau.org/forums2007/melbourne.html

[5] Dey Alexander Consulting: http://www.deyalexander.com/
[6]	Alexander Dey, 30 Jan 2004, How Accessible Are Australian 
University Web Sites?, Ariadne 38,  
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue38/web-watch/

[7] AusWeb: http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/

--
Jonathan O'Donnell
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://purl.nla.gov.au/net/jod
+61 4 2575 5829


On 11/04/2007, at 11:38 AM, Tim wrote:



On 11/04/2007, at 9:41 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:


Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...

http://www.wanau.org/site.html

 They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in 
online teaching at UQ where I work, and we’ve been asked to help ... 
:)


 I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any 
feedback!


 Cheers
 Susie
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Don't be conned Susie,

Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004.
Where was it held last year? Who attended last year?

I bet they are selling training courses, seen in links to a business 
case on the W3C site..
Funny that they are from RMIT yet there is no action at their own 
University. Multiple page errors. Fix your own Uni pages first.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmit.edu.au%2F

They do have a few different stylesheets, but the changes between 
them are minor colour changes.
I thought Dey Alexander was working with Vision Australia who to me 
seem to accept low government standards to get training contracts 
from AGIMO.