Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 15:59, Lachlan Hardy wrote: Apparently every version of Windows Media Player from WMP7 will play .mov files [1], except that they is not associated with the player by default. According to http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q316992#30 , Only QuickTime files version 2.0 or earlier can be played in Windows Media Player. Later versions of QuickTime require the proprietary Apple QuickTime Player. QuickTime is now up to what, 5? 6? There must be at least some benefits of these newer file formats that would be lost if the older format was used... If you want *run-on-everything-out-of-the-box* compatibility, avoid QuickTime... go with some generic MPEG or AVI standard. Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the senders consent. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way. Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by the contents of this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
On 9/12/04 10:59 PM Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: I didn't download QT for testing (seriously, register to download? As if) but I scoured their site. The best info I could get was here [2]. You don't have to register. Clear the checkmarks and don't enter your name, etc. The download will begin. Why are some folks so biased against Quicktime when it's the best?! And it's an open standard! What more do you want! A free streaming QT server? It's available! Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Sheri German wrote: Just remember to add a link to download the free QT plugin, and you'll be good to go. But then you get folks like me who refuse to install QT because it is annoying (although not quite as bad as RealPlayer). If I come across a site that only uses .mov files, I simply leave. I don't know what the figures are on people with those kind of preferences. I don't suppose there are very many of us, but I know a few I've never had to provide video online, but surely you can just use one of the generic video file types that every player recognises? Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Lachlan Hardy wrote: I've never had to provide video online, but surely you can just use one of the generic video file types that every player recognises? I just knew that was going to get me in trouble... Unless I'm mistaken, there are many video players that can play MOV files (just as it's not just MS' Media Player that can play AVI). What generic video file types do you mean? I could only think of MPEG, off the top of my head... I had thought of that, AVI and AU I'm bound to get shot down by someone who has actually done this in practice, but I did some quick research anyway Apparently every version of Windows Media Player from WMP7 will play .mov files [1], except that they is not associated with the player by default. Nor are they listed in the File Types menu. In fact I can't find any indication of compatibility. However I just checked and it works with .mov files, and .qt files as well. Makes me feel a tad silly about missing all those downloads for the last few years It also plays .au, .snd, .mpg, .mpeg and .ivf (and other lesser known video types, and of course the WM family) I didn't download QT for testing (seriously, register to download? As if) but I scoured their site. The best info I could get was here [2]. So, common video file types playable in both Windows Media Player and QuickTime Player are .au, .avi, .mpeg, .mov, .qt (NOTE: these are only video file types. I haven't compared audio types) Apple do not specify any compatibility with any of the WM family. I remember reading somewhere that QT doesn't play .wmv files etc. Most of you can probably check that pretty easily yourself Of course, then it depends whether you are downloading the files or playing them in the browser. Because I still can't play .mov files via the browser as I don't have the correct plugin Hope that helpful to someone Cheers, Lachlan [1] http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q316992 [2] http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/specifications.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Vicki, One quick question about Quicktime - my colleague said Quicktime is a Bad Idea because the file sizes are big and it doesn't have a big installed base... is this a good enough reason not to use it? Does one sacrifice accessibility for some for the convenience of most? (Which also could be categorised as accessibility too?) When it comes to the crunch, is Flash a better alternative? *Can* you stream Flash content without the Flash server? QuickTime's installed base is not as large as Flash's, that is true. Yet it could be as high as 80% of PC users (and, of course, 100% of Mac users). Apple claims that 250 million copies of QuickTime 6 have been downloaded in the less than two years since its release, and many more copies are installed with games, with iTunes and via other means - digital camera software, for example. (HP is about to install QuickTime on every PC it ships.) In the following article it appears that QuickTime is almost equally placed with Windows Media for penetration of the streaming media market. This is not, probably, very helpful, because QuickTime does much more than play streamed media, and most people would have a mix of players on their systems. http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/06/11/streaming/index.php So your colleague is not correct. QuickTime's installed base is huge. The question is, of course, is it large enough for you? One thing that does make QuickTime a good choice from the web standards point of view is that it plays the MPEG-4 standard. (This is, to some extent, academic, though, if you want to broadcast files as QuickTime movies with text captioning.) Disability software like JAWS needs special installation, so installing software for special needs is nothing new. You just need to know whether this would be a requirement you would like to make for the 20% or so of users who may not have it. As to the issue of file size, it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are talking about sound or video, file sizes are going to be large-ish no matter what delivery mechanism you use. QuickTime does not suffer in comparison with anything else in this regard. One of the beauties of QuickTime is that you can send media as fast start movies. These will (while indicating that they are downloading with a waiting screen) start playing once enough of the movie/sound-track has downloaded to play right to the end. It means you can place any size movie in a web page and know that it will play, without the need for a streaming server. (To see what I mean, go to Apple's movie trailer site and try one of the movies: http://www.quicktime.com ) And if you do want to use the QT streaming server, it is free (and open source). http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/streaming/ (Apple's version of it comes with Apple servers, which are proprietory, of course.) Hope this helps! -Hugh Todd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Hi Vicki :-) I just joined too, and this looks like a great list. I actually use both Flash video and QT video, depending on the audience and purpose. If I already have a Flash site in place, I just add Flash video to the site. If it is not a Flash site to begin with, I tend to use QuickTime. I use QuickTime in the fast start mode that Hugh suggests, and find that most people can access the movies fairly quickly. If you don't have the QT RTSP streaming server, you'll still get a nice incremental download that begins to play once enough of the file has downloaded to a temp file on the visitor's computer. If you consider that two of the biggest online movie tutorial subscription series use QT, you'll realize that the installed base is good enough for high visibility commerce. (lynda.com and vtc.com) Just remember to add a link to download the free QT plugin, and you'll be good to go. Sheri On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:50 AM, Hugh Todd wrote: Vicki, One quick question about Quicktime - my colleague said Quicktime is a Bad Idea because the file sizes are big and it doesn't have a big installed base... is this a good enough reason not to use it? Does one sacrifice accessibility for some for the convenience of most? (Which also could be categorised as accessibility too?) When it comes to the crunch, is Flash a better alternative? *Can* you stream Flash content without the Flash server? QuickTime's installed base is not as large as Flash's, that is true. Yet it could be as high as 80% of PC users (and, of course, 100% of Mac users). Apple claims that 250 million copies of QuickTime 6 have been downloaded in the less than two years since its release, and many more copies are installed with games, with iTunes and via other means - digital camera software, for example. (HP is about to install QuickTime on every PC it ships.) In the following article it appears that QuickTime is almost equally placed with Windows Media for penetration of the streaming media market. This is not, probably, very helpful, because QuickTime does much more than play streamed media, and most people would have a mix of players on their systems. http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/06/11/streaming/index.php So your colleague is not correct. QuickTime's installed base is huge. The question is, of course, is it large enough for you? One thing that does make QuickTime a good choice from the web standards point of view is that it plays the MPEG-4 standard. (This is, to some extent, academic, though, if you want to broadcast files as QuickTime movies with text captioning.) Disability software like JAWS needs special installation, so installing software for special needs is nothing new. You just need to know whether this would be a requirement you would like to make for the 20% or so of users who may not have it. As to the issue of file size, it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are talking about sound or video, file sizes are going to be large-ish no matter what delivery mechanism you use. QuickTime does not suffer in comparison with anything else in this regard. One of the beauties of QuickTime is that you can send media as fast start movies. These will (while indicating that they are downloading with a waiting screen) start playing once enough of the movie/sound-track has downloaded to play right to the end. It means you can place any size movie in a web page and know that it will play, without the need for a streaming server. (To see what I mean, go to Apple's movie trailer site and try one of the movies: http://www.quicktime.com ) And if you do want to use the QT streaming server, it is free (and open source). http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/streaming/ (Apple's version of it comes with Apple servers, which are proprietory, of course.) Hope this helps! -Hugh Todd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
One quick question about Quicktime - my colleague said Quicktime is a Bad Idea because the file sizes are big and it doesn't have a big installed base... is this a good enough reason not to use it? Vicki That's an opinion from a distinctly Windows perspective. It would be interesting to see your colleagues stats about this. Of course, WMV and the other MS formats will be more prolific as they are pre installed on most Intel/AMD boxes sold in the shops. I personally can't see a difference between the two formats in file size. When you are on a broadband connection a couple of megs here and there doesn't matter. Of course that differs for dial-up users in the bush but in that case a media file may not be the best choice, a plain text alternative might be better. If you run a *nix OS (like a Linux distro or Mac OSX) there are some good open source media players available - such as Xine [1] (and related frontends [2]) and Mplayer [3]. Both play media files regardless of format as long as the correct codecs are installed on the system. I can happily play WMV, ASF, AVI, MOV, QT, MPG2 3 and 4 etc etc in the same player. Both have closed captioning support and they are open source. So whether the manufacturers player for their format is installed or not on a system is a null argument in this regard. As an aside there is a very interesting project at CSIRO (the Australian Government science and research organisation) called Annodex http://www.annodex.net/. It combines a media format with an XML based markup language called CMML. Very interesting reading. [1] http://xinehq.de/index.php/features [2]http://xinehq.de/index.php/releases [3] http://www.mplayerhq.hu http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML-single/en/MPlayer.html#subosd HTH James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
You may find some of this information helpful: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility#multimedia Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Russ linked to it before, but: http://joeclark.org/access/captioning/bpoc/ is worth a read. For video, you may consider using Magpie http://www.google.com/search?q=magpie+video+captioning For audio, a full transcript should be enough (as a separate document). Patrick Vicki Berry wrote: Hi all, I have a client who wants some audio-visual content on his site. He wants to stream interviews etc like a radio channel - but not live, at this point. There will also be some video clips. (All of these will be downloadable, and not play automatically.) The client represents a local govt agency I have made him aware of accessibility issues and he is keen to comply. That's a double bonus for me, as a hearing-impaired person - I might actually get to find out what is being said! :-) So... what's the best way to caption audio content? Is it possible (or practical) to do it in real time? And if so, what format should be used for the audio file and how do I set about adding captions? Or is a text alternative considered acceptable? How is video content usually made accessible? I don't recall ever seeing video on the web that's been accessible to *me*... though there's been some nice Breeze presentations sent to me from Macromedia that work really well. (The cost of Breeze means it's not an option here.) I believe Flash does real-time captioning etc - is the Flash server required for this? (That's not an option either.) And do sight-impaired people have problems with video content even when it is captioned? What other disabilities do I need to consider when it comes to video content? Sorry for all the questions. I guess I know most of the you musts but now it's a matter of finding out the hows. :-) Vicki. :-) Perth, Western Australia. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
This will be the best place to start: http://www.joeclark.org/access/captioning/bpoc/ Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st On 7/9/04 5:00 PM, Vicki Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There will also be some video clips Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st Ph: 02 9570 9875 Mobile: 0419 350 760 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.accessibility1st.com.au Blog: http://www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be privileged and confidential, and are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please REPLY TO the SENDER to advise the error AND then DELETE the e-mail from your system. Any views expressed in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of our organisation. Our organisation does not represent or warrant that the attached files are free from computer viruses or other defects. The user assumes all responsibility for any loss or damage resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files. In any event, the liability to our organisation is limited to either the resupply of the attached files or the cost of having the attached files resupplied ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Vicki, If QuickTime is acceptable as a delivery medium, you can either: 1. incorporate closed captioning via a text track or 2. play images (or Flash) of text within the audio/video window. (Either in its own space or over the top of a movie [Flash images are better for the latter].) For more info, see the QuickTime Developers page on the Apple site. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/tools_tips/tutorials/ (in particular the Text Tracks tutorial) -Hugh Todd The only tool you would need for this would be QuickTime Pro, available (as a key to unlock its powers) online from Apple. So... what's the best way to caption audio content? How is video content usually made accessible? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Hi all, The DRC's videos are done using a Flash front-end. Quite liked the method and currently recommending it. http://www.drc-gb.org/citizenship/talkvideos/index.asp mike 2k:)2 marqueeblink http://www.webSemantics.co.uk /marquee/blink -Original Message- From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 September 2004 08:29 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content Vicki, If QuickTime is acceptable as a delivery medium, you can either: 1. incorporate closed captioning via a text track or 2. play images (or Flash) of text within the audio/video window. (Either in its own space or over the top of a movie [Flash images are better for the latter].) For more info, see the QuickTime Developers page on the Apple site. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/tools_tips/tutorials/ (in particular the Text Tracks tutorial) -Hugh Todd The only tool you would need for this would be QuickTime Pro, available (as a key to unlock its powers) online from Apple. So... what's the best way to caption audio content? How is video content usually made accessible? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
