Re: [WSG] nav element

2011-11-22 Thread Phil Archer

Hi Frances,

I think you might be missing some of the semantics. I might include a 
list in a page, such as a list of references, or a friend list where 
each friend was linked to their public profile - but those aren't 
navigation links. The nav / element tells search engines etc. what 
this list of links is for.


Dunno if that makes sense,

Phil.

On 22/11/2011 14:32, Frances de Waal wrote:

Hi,

Working with the semantical HTML5 elements I keep feeling aversion to the extra 
elements I am producing. Like the nav element, using it as a container for a 
menu in an list does not feel as an advantage, I never needed a container for 
the list before. I trained myself in keeping the code as clean and small as 
possible and now I am simply creating more elements.

How about a nav element containing just links? I can think of answer myself 
like that a nav element may also contain a header, or contain paragraph with 
links inside the text. So this could lead to the conclusion that (with keeping 
in mind to never use an element unless you need it) that I should only use the 
nav element in such cases, and that a nav element around a simple list is not 
adding anything to it but creating more code.

Anyone having any thoughts on this?

Bye,
Frances

www.waalweb.nl
www.smartscripts.nl
Zelfstudiehandboek Websites Ontwikkelen met HTML, CSS en Dreamweaver
WaalWeb | Halfweg, Noord-Holland | KvK 34350833



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http://www.w3.org/egov/

http://philarcher.org
@philarcher1


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Re: [WSG] nav element

2011-11-22 Thread David Hucklesby

On 11/22/11 6:32 AM, Frances de Waal wrote:

Hi,

Working with the semantical HTML5 elements I keep feeling aversion
to the extra elements I am producing. Like the nav element, using it
as a container for a menu in an list does not feel as an advantage,
I never needed a container for the list before. I trained myself in
keeping the code as clean and small as possible and now I am simply
creating more elements.

How about a nav element containing just links? I can think of answer
myself like that a nav element may also contain a header, or contain
paragraph with links inside the text. So this could lead to the
conclusion that (with keeping in mind to never use an element unless
you need it) that I should only use the nav element in such cases,
and that a nav element around a simple list is not adding anything
to it but creating more code.

Anyone having any thoughts on this?



FWIW - I also include a heading element inside the nav element (or
div class=nav ). This is for the benefit of non-visual agents, or
for cases where CSS is not applied. (Go naked day ???)

example:
nav
  h2Site Navigation/h2
  ul
 lia href=??Home/a/li
 ...
  /ul
/nav

This heading is not needed where convention dictates the purpose of the
links - as in the case of a menu bar, for example. So it can be moved
off screen or otherwise visually hidden, but available to screen readers
etc.

HTH.
--
Cordially,
David


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Re: [WSG] nav element

2011-11-22 Thread Frances de Waal
Hi Phil,

Yes, you are right, and screenreaders have the opportunity to skip the nav, for 
instance. It is just that when I work with this I keep having the feeling it is 
a bit overdone and I keep looking for some logic to simplify things. So I 
wonder how others deal with this, maybe something I didn't think of...?

Frances 

Op 22 nov 2011, om 16:16 heeft Phil Archer het volgende geschreven:

 Hi Frances,
 
 I think you might be missing some of the semantics. I might include a list in 
 a page, such as a list of references, or a friend list where each friend was 
 linked to their public profile - but those aren't navigation links. The nav 
 / element tells search engines etc. what this list of links is for.
 
 Dunno if that makes sense,
 
 Phil.
 
 On 22/11/2011 14:32, Frances de Waal wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Working with the semantical HTML5 elements I keep feeling aversion to the 
 extra elements I am producing. Like the nav element, using it as a container 
 for a menu in an list does not feel as an advantage, I never needed a 
 container for the list before. I trained myself in keeping the code as clean 
 and small as possible and now I am simply creating more elements.
 
 How about a nav element containing just links? I can think of answer myself 
 like that a nav element may also contain a header, or contain paragraph with 
 links inside the text. So this could lead to the conclusion that (with 
 keeping in mind to never use an element unless you need it) that I should 
 only use the nav element in such cases, and that a nav element around a 
 simple list is not adding anything to it but creating more code.
 
 Anyone having any thoughts on this?
 
 Bye,
 Frances
 
 www.waalweb.nl
 www.smartscripts.nl
 Zelfstudiehandboek Websites Ontwikkelen met HTML, CSS en Dreamweaver
 WaalWeb | Halfweg, Noord-Holland | KvK 34350833
 
 
 
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 Phil Archer
 W3C eGovernment
 http://www.w3.org/egov/
 
 http://philarcher.org
 @philarcher1
 
 
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Re: [WSG] nav element

2011-11-22 Thread Frances de Waal
Thank you, David, good to know, I am afraid this is an example of what made me 
pose this question :). Suppose time will solve it all!

Frances 


Op 22 nov 2011, om 16:52 heeft David Hucklesby het volgende geschreven:

 On 11/22/11 6:32 AM, Frances de Waal wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Working with the semantical HTML5 elements I keep feeling aversion
 to the extra elements I am producing. Like the nav element, using it
 as a container for a menu in an list does not feel as an advantage,
 I never needed a container for the list before. I trained myself in
 keeping the code as clean and small as possible and now I am simply
 creating more elements.
 
 How about a nav element containing just links? I can think of answer
 myself like that a nav element may also contain a header, or contain
 paragraph with links inside the text. So this could lead to the
 conclusion that (with keeping in mind to never use an element unless
 you need it) that I should only use the nav element in such cases,
 and that a nav element around a simple list is not adding anything
 to it but creating more code.
 
 Anyone having any thoughts on this?
 
 
 FWIW - I also include a heading element inside the nav element (or
 div class=nav ). This is for the benefit of non-visual agents, or
 for cases where CSS is not applied. (Go naked day ???)
 
 example:
 nav
  h2Site Navigation/h2
  ul
 lia href=??Home/a/li
 ...
  /ul
 /nav
 
 This heading is not needed where convention dictates the purpose of the
 links - as in the case of a menu bar, for example. So it can be moved
 off screen or otherwise visually hidden, but available to screen readers
 etc.
 
 HTH.
 -- 
 Cordially,
 David
 
 
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Re: [WSG] nav element

2011-11-22 Thread Hassan Schroeder

On 11/22/11 6:32 AM, Frances de Waal wrote:


,,,  and that a nav element around a simple
list is not adding anything to it but creating more code.


Of course it's adding something: semantics beyond that of a generic
list, which provides no metadata about what it contains.

Personally, I say it's worth adding a tag for that. YMMV.

--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
http://about.me/hassanschroeder
twitter: @hassan
  dream.  code.


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