Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-10 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stephen Stagg wrote:

And how, pray tell, would a screen reader know - based on a series of 
presentational rules - what the meaning of a made-up tag soup is?


The same way that they would with normal HTML, by reading the XML, and 
the stylesheet and guessing,  if an element has the font-weight:bold

element, then it should be emboldened.


Wrong. Screen readers do not look at the CSS and try to guesstimate what 
is a heading, what's a paragraph, what's a list, etc.



Screen-Reader hints are still presentational devices.


Screen readers look at the structure of the document, which is clearly 
defined as it's standardised in the HTML specification.



I believe (tho haven't
checked) that there are a whole load of CSS properties to do with 
controlling assistive-technologies output.


There are aural stylesheets, which only give hints about how to present 
something aurally. They do not define purpose or role of the elements 
they refer to, and THAT is what counts.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-10 Thread Stephen Stagg


On 10 Feb 2006, at 19:14, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Stephen Stagg wrote:

And how, pray tell, would a screen reader know - based on a  
series of presentational rules - what the meaning of a made-up  
tag soup is?
The same way that they would with normal HTML, by reading the XML,  
and the stylesheet and guessing,  if an element has the font- 
weight:bold

element, then it should be emboldened.


Wrong. Screen readers do not look at the CSS and try to guesstimate  
what is a heading, what's a paragraph, what's a list, etc.


Not wrong actually, Good screen-readers DO read the CSS to work out  
various things, incuding to see if someting has a display:hidden.  I  
do acknowledge that this is an area that would have to be developed  
in screen-readers but that does not invalidate the idea.



Screen-Reader hints are still presentational devices.


Screen readers look at the structure of the document, which is  
clearly defined as it's standardised in the HTML specification.


And they PRESENT it to someone with visual impairment, The  
presentational properties should be set in the presentational layer



I believe (tho haven't
checked) that there are a whole load of CSS properties to do with  
controlling assistive-technologies output.


There are aural stylesheets, which only give hints about how to  
present something aurally. They do not define purpose or role of  
the elements they refer to, and THAT is what counts.


As is said, I wasn't sure about the exact nature of the aural  
stylesheets.  Thanks for the info, Perhaps this is something that  
could be developed to improve the designers' control over output to  
screen-readers? no?



--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-10 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stephen Stagg wrote:

Screen readers look at the structure of the document, which is clearly 
defined as it's standardised in the HTML specification.


And they PRESENT it to someone with visual impairment, The 
presentational properties should be set in the presentational layer


So by your logic we could even have stuck with using font 
size=+3This is a heading/font as screen readers could theoretically 
just have picked that up and magically deduced it's a heading...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-10 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
generic XML + CSS would be meaningless without some third technology 
that defines semantics (a DTD, XBL, etc)


Neither a DTD nor XBL define document semantics at all.  A DTD only 
defines the document syntax and structure.  XBL is only a binding 
language for attaching behaviour to an element, it doesn't define 
semantics either.


The closest thing there is for describing semantics is the XML 
namespace, but even then it only loosely associates the elements with 
the semantics defined in the relevant specification (if one exists).


See this post for an interesting discussion of why DTDs don't define 
semantics.

http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.text.sgml/msg/c3e53dee2c152a81?output=gplain

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Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stephen Stagg wrote:

I understand that this is already possible in most modern browsers but 
it will never be used or properly implemented unless HTML is dropped as 
a language.  Worried about screen-readers? I don't see why, the 
screen-readers would have to parse the CSS to find clues about how to 
read the content, but then modern ones already do.  :)


And how, pray tell, would a screen reader know - based on a series of 
presentational rules - what the meaning of a made-up tag soup is?


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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