Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Jim Brown]

On 6/9/2021 11:25 AM, Michael Pittaro wrote:

Intel provides tools to do the feature identification for you.  See:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/05607/boards-and-kits/desktop-boards.html 


The second choice in this link told me that all my active Thinkpads, the 
oldest being about 2012-23 vintage, have AVX capability. It took about 
two minutes per machine to download and run it.


73, Jim K9YC







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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Reino Talarmo]

>I looked into what I’m running here and found it is a Gen 1 i7 2.67GHz from 
>Intel.  Basically says no features on the Intel site, and no mention of AVX or 
>similar on that processor.

Hi Gary,

You need to dig out the number after "i7-". That tells the actual capabilities 
of the CPU. I got a feeling that the numbers below 1000 means no AVX support, 
but higher numbers may also not support. So you need to check it on Intel web 
page.

73, Reino OH3mA



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Gary McDuffie]

Bill,

I looked into what I’m running here and found it is a Gen 1 i7 2.67GHz from 
Intel.  Basically says no features on the Intel site, and no mention of AVX or 
similar on that processor.

Gary - AG0N

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Bill Somerville]

On 09/06/2021 00:38, Bill Somerville wrote:

Hi all WSJT-X users,

we are looking into some performance enhancements that will take 
advantage of some parallel processing features of modern CPU 
architectures. In order to gauge how much backwards compatibility for 
older CPUs we will have to implement it would help to know who is 
using such older processors. Please don't turn this thread in to a 
mine is better than yours conversation, all I need to know is who or 
how many of you are using the older CPU architectures. Note that this 
applies to MS Windows, Intel Linux, and Intel macOS users, it is about 
CPUs not operating systems.


The technology we will use is called AVX and that is present on all 
Intel CPUs branded Core i3/i5/i7/i9 (circa 2010 to present), it is 
also present on AMD CPUs since the Jaguar or Puma based CPU models 
(some late Athlon-II CPUs, all Zen based CPUs, including Ryzen) circa 
2013 to present.


Notably Intel CPUs branded Celeron, Pentium, or Atom do not support 
the AVX technology.


So in summary, look up your CPU and if it **does not support AVX** 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions) then let me 
know.


73
Bill
G4WJS. 


Hi all,

thanks for all those who took the time to check their systems and report 
those without AVX support. That has helped to get a broad picture of the 
numbers with older CPUs that pre-date this feature. Not unsurprisingly a 
significant proportion lack AVX, this is almost certainly due to systems 
being acquired second-hand, repurposed from other uses, or kept for 
extended periods as they are more than adequate for the average shack 
PC.  Some have suggested that we should not abandon owners of these 
older PCs, don't worry as that has never been the intention of this 
exercise, here is some background that should help to clarify what may 
happen.


The MAP65 application, as of WSJT-X v2.5.0 RC1 has been updated to 
decode Q65 signals, this is because we feel certain that Q65 is superior 
for EME use on all bands and the prior JT65 decoding ability will be 
superseded by Q65. The MAP65 decoder is able to decode many signals 
across a wide pass-band, and also implements polarization diversity with 
suitably equipped stations. Automatic linear drift compensation has also 
been added to compensate for less well specified stations. This all 
requires a lot of signal processing effort, but users expect signals to 
be decoded in the short interval between the end of transmission and the 
start of the next period (note with EME the path delay means that up to 
2 1/2 seconds of that interval is lost compared with terrestrial paths). 
The first use of hand coded micro-optimizations using AVX instructions 
on suitable CPUs will be aimed at getting Q65 decodes done faster in 
MAP65. Because the Q65 decoder is shared by WSJT-X and MAP65, the same 
optimizations will be there for WSJT-X Q65 users. None of this is 
particularly relevant to the survey of CPUs done here as I am sure that 
PC costs are such a small part of the typical EME station investment 
that users will find a way to upgrade their PCs if necessary.


So why did I ask the question about AVX? Once we start using AVX for 
some parts of WSJT-X it makes sense to find other opportunities for 
similar hand coded micro-optimizations elsewhere in out code base, not 
only that but once implemented we may well choose to increase the 
decoding depth of other decoders by taking advantage of such performance 
gains. The net effect would be that those with AVX equipped PCs will see 
faster and deeper decoding, those with older PCs will see the same extra 
depth but overall decoding will take longer than before. My aim was to 
judge what proportion of users might suffer this speed degradation 
versus those that will see both faster and deeper decoding.


To reassure those that may have misunderstood, there is no intention to 
exclude users from the latest WSJT-X enhancements just because they have 
older CPUs. We would implement AVX implementations of critical 
algorithms alongside their current linear implementations and the choice 
of which to use would be made at runtime according to the available CPU 
features. Note exactly this already happens in the FFT library we use 
called FFTW3, so WSJT-X and MAP65 users have always had AVX specific 
algorithm implementations for FFT calculations if the CPU they run on 
supports them. We are investigating coding other critical algorithms in 
a similar fashion. Notwithstanding that, we also have no intention of 
dropping support for ARM CPU architectures like the Raspberry Pi, yet we 
have no intention of similar hand coded micro-optimizations for that 
platform since the required tools do not exist, so for that platform our 
linear implementations would still be used, just like on non-AVX Intel 
or AMD CPUs.


73
Bill
G4WJS.



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Bob McCormick]

All of the current systems at NC1I support AVX.  We're upgrading the portable 
DXpedition station and will make sure that supports it as well.

Bob W1QA


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Alan]

I broadly agree, but conversely a fair number of people seem to like 
keeping classic cars going as a hobby, sometimes rather older than a Model T!


However, AVX practical usage dates from 2011 and 10 year old machines (W7 
era) are still viable for some people, since for simple use they can be 
good enough.


The number of replies here with non AVX machines also seems to confirm such 
older or more limited hardware machines are in regular use within the hobby.


I do hope AVX can be used for those of us with capable processors, but also 
hope that those without can also continue unaffected, at least until non 
AVX machines aren't commonly viable in hobby use.


Alan G0TLK
On 10 June 2021 21:16:03 Jim Brown  wrote:


On 6/10/2021 2:02 AM, Alan wrote:

I agree up to a point, but this is a hobby and older kit is often in
service for long periods to keep financial cost down.


It's unlikely that anyone would drive a Model T thinking it was a
suitable vehicle on today's roadways. A 15 year old computer, even a
very good one, is the modern equivalent.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Jim Brown]

On 6/10/2021 2:02 AM, Alan wrote:
I agree up to a point, but this is a hobby and older kit is often in 
service for long periods to keep financial cost down.


It's unlikely that anyone would drive a Model T thinking it was a 
suitable vehicle on today's roadways. A 15 year old computer, even a 
very good one, is the modern equivalent.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Bob McCormick]

For Windows based systems - sysinternals utility to display all facets:

Microsoft Coreinfo v3.52
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/coreinfo

Extract either coreinfo (32-bit) or coreinfo64 (64-bit) from the zip file.
Run in command prompt ... a * indicates the feature is present, a - not present.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Serge Szpilfogel]

Hi Bill my processor is AMD Phenom II X6 Thuban on window 7 & it does not 
support AVX according to Google.
Serge VE1KG

-Original Message-
From: Bill Somerville  
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2021 20:22
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for 
WSJT-X

On 09/06/2021 21:15, Andrew Neumeier via wsjt-devel wrote:


Using a Athlon II 450 triple core.  No AVX support, according to what I 
have been able to learn about the processor specs. Seems that support may have 
started just after this cpu.  

73,
Andy, ka2uqw


Hi Andy,

that's correct, it was launched in 2010 and AMD did not include AVX until about 
2013.

73
Bill
G4WJS.





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Richard Shaw
> Not exactly what I meant. We (Fedora Linux) can only assume certain
> processor facilities can be "assumed" when targeting a specific platform
> (x86_64, i686, s390x, ppc, aarch64, etc.). Which is separate from my desire
> to take advantage of them.
> 
> It's a bit more complicated, but it is possible to detect and use these
> features at runtime.

I would be interested in that as well for Debian.

Christoph DF7CB


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[alan2]

Hopefully it will be, but as I said just something to check!

Alan G0TLK

On 10/06/2021 10:00, Reino Talarmo wrote:


Hi Alan,

The AVX performs decoding calculation four or eight times faster than 
the same calculation without it. If the decoding level is the same, 
then the 30% higher current usage once every 15 s would use about one 
third of power or less. Of course you may wish to apply a better 
decoding as it will be available. Well, my calculation is a bit 
optimistic as decoding is not alone AVX type calculation and on that 
part there is no relevant difference. We should remember that in our 
application the current consumption is a small part of total time so 
it is not a high duty cycle. My bet is that difference in total power 
consumption is minor.


73, Reino OH3mA

*Lähettäjä:*Alan [mailto:al...@alangroups.plus.com]
*Lähetetty:* 10 June 2021 10:02
*Vastaanottaja:* WSJT software development 

*Aihe:* Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being 
used for WSJT-X


My main concern is battery life when out portable.

While I agree cooling design should be OK, on older machines typically 
in use there will almost certainly be performance degradation due to 
dirt!   If their CPU is hit hard on a high duty cycle will they be 
OK?  Only the machine user will know how it performs under such loads.


Thermal cycling is another consideration, again duty cycle dependent.

My query is therefore how the load increase occurs, in particular the 
length of time it lasts and how frequent it will be. Hopefully no 
problem but just some things to check.


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device

On 9 June 2021 22:49:58 Richard Shaw > wrote:


On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:33 PM Alan mailto:al...@alangroups.plus.com>> wrote:

With 30% extra CPU power consumption those running on battery
power might want to think twice about use of these extensions,
and some on mains power might also not want to add additional
thermal stress and/or electricity consumption, if it's drawn
for any length of time?

The cooling for your processor should be designed to handle the
maximum TDP of the processor, if not, then you've got a much
bigger problem. I would make an exception for laptop processors
since they have very limited cooling but they should throttle
anyway. Either case, it shouldn't be a problem.

When there are test builds available I'll check if there's any
noticeable increase in power draw. I have a very nice UPS that
gives me the current draw in watts.

Thanks,

Richard

KF5OIM

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Alan]

I agree up to a point, but this is a hobby and older kit is often in 
service for long periods to keep financial cost down.  Some people may also 
be concerned with sustainability and environmental costs, others less so.


Two source branches would be a maintenance nightmare.  It shouldn't be hard 
to test for the extensions and set a flag accordingly.  New code or maybe 
new modes that must use AVX could then simply check the flag and pop up a 
box to say CPU upgrade needed?


Anyway, getting off topic.

Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device
On 9 June 2021 23:13:23 Jeff Stillinger via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:



Hi Bill,

I know this is not exactly the suggestion that you may want to consider,
but, I would feel remiss if I didn't mention it.  The development team
has a difficult choice to make.   I can empathize with people vs.
technology.

If you are trying to please the most people.  I would suggest another
source branch.  One for those with AVX and one for those without AVX.
You could get a little fancy and detect it during the configure portion
of the build and make it invisible to the end user.   Each source build
then is optimized for the builders CPU.

If you are looking to push the technology forward, then it would be
using AVX and those with processors that don't support it will simply
have to upgrade.  Being backwards compatible is nice to a degree, but
going back 8-10 years is excessive.   We are talking Intel processors
that are over 11 years old and AMD processors that are 8 years old.
Bet nobody has a phone that is 11 years old. I would fully support and
press for moving the technology forward.



On 6/8/21 6:38 PM, Bill Somerville wrote:

Hi all WSJT-X users,

we are looking into some performance enhancements that will take
advantage of some parallel processing features of modern CPU
architectures. In order to gauge how much backwards compatibility for
older CPUs we will have to implement it would help to know who is
using such older processors. Please don't turn this thread in to a
mine is better than yours conversation, all I need to know is who or
how many of you are using the older CPU architectures. Note that this
applies to MS Windows, Intel Linux, and Intel macOS users, it is about
CPUs not operating systems.

The technology we will use is called AVX and that is present on all
Intel CPUs branded Core i3/i5/i7/i9 (circa 2010 to present), it is
also present on AMD CPUs since the Jaguar or Puma based CPU models
(some late Athlon-II CPUs, all Zen based CPUs, including Ryzen) circa
2013 to present.

Notably Intel CPUs branded Celeron, Pentium, or Atom do not support
the AVX technology.

So in summary, look up your CPU and if it **does not support AVX**
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions) then let me
know.

73
Bill
G4WJS.



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--
Jeff Stillinger - KB6IBB KB6IBB Laboratories Wylie, Texas - United
States http://kb6ibb-15.ham-radio-op.net/Ham-Radio/


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Reino Talarmo]

Hi Alan,

The AVX performs decoding calculation four or eight times faster than the
same calculation without it. If the decoding level is the same, then the 30%
higher current usage once every 15 s would use about one third of power or
less. Of course you may wish to apply a better decoding as it will be
available. Well, my calculation is a bit optimistic as decoding is not alone
AVX type calculation and on that part there is no relevant difference. We
should remember that in our application the current consumption is a small
part of total time so it is not a high duty cycle. My bet is that difference
in total power consumption is minor.

 

73, Reino OH3mA

 

Lähettäjä: Alan [mailto:al...@alangroups.plus.com] 
Lähetetty: 10 June 2021 10:02
Vastaanottaja: WSJT software development 
Aihe: Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for
WSJT-X

 

My main concern is battery life when out portable.

 

While I agree cooling design should be OK, on older machines typically in
use there will almost certainly be performance degradation due to dirt!   If
their CPU is hit hard on a high duty cycle will they be OK?  Only the
machine user will know how it performs under such loads.

 

Thermal cycling is another consideration, again duty cycle dependent.

 

My query is therefore how the load increase occurs, in particular the length
of time it lasts and how frequent it will be.  Hopefully no problem but just
some things to check.

 

Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device

 

On 9 June 2021 22:49:58 Richard Shaw mailto:hobbes1...@gmail.com> > wrote:

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:33 PM Alan mailto:al...@alangroups.plus.com> > wrote:

With 30% extra CPU power consumption those running on battery power might
want to think twice about use of these extensions, and some on mains power
might also not want to add additional thermal stress and/or electricity
consumption, if it's drawn for any length of time?

 

The cooling for your processor should be designed to handle the maximum TDP
of the processor, if not, then you've got a much bigger problem. I would
make an exception for laptop processors since they have very limited cooling
but they should throttle anyway. Either case, it shouldn't be a problem. 

 

When there are test builds available I'll check if there's any noticeable
increase in power draw. I have a very nice UPS that gives me the current
draw in watts.

 

Thanks,

Richard

KF5OIM 

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Call for information about PC systems being used for WSJT-X

[Alan]

My main concern is battery life when out portable.

While I agree cooling design should be OK, on older machines typically in 
use there will almost certainly be performance degradation due to dirt!   
If their CPU is hit hard on a high duty cycle will they be OK?  Only the 
machine user will know how it performs under such loads.


Thermal cycling is another consideration, again duty cycle dependent.

My query is therefore how the load increase occurs, in particular the 
length of time it lasts and how frequent it will be.  Hopefully no problem 
but just some things to check.


Alan G0TLK, sent from my mobile device
On 9 June 2021 22:49:58 Richard Shaw  wrote:

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:33 PM Alan  wrote:

With 30% extra CPU power consumption those running on battery power might 
want to think twice about use of these extensions, and some on mains power 
might also not want to add additional thermal stress and/or electricity 
consumption, if it's drawn for any length of time?


The cooling for your processor should be designed to handle the maximum TDP 
of the processor, if not, then you've got a much bigger problem. I would 
make an exception for laptop processors since they have very limited 
cooling but they should throttle anyway. Either case, it shouldn't be a 
problem.


When there are test builds available I'll check if there's any noticeable 
increase in power draw. I have a very nice UPS that gives me the current 
draw in watts.


Thanks,
Richard
KF5OIM
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