Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

FYI...a reboot seems to have solved this problem so it's not an ALC overshoot 
in my situation.ANAN 100 + Virtual Audio Cable,
Recording via audacity now looks rock solid where it was all over the place 
before.  I also have VoiceMeter Banana installed so if this happens again going 
to uninstall that.  But from what I can tell it wasn't doing anything (i.e. 
never opened it).

I'm doing a lot of testing right now with a new flrig backend for hamlib (much 
improved) but don't see how that could mess with the audio chain.
And completely at a loss for what in the audio chain could be doing to cause 
this behavior.  Seems there should be only two layers before Audacity sees the 
loopback.  WSJT-X and the virtual audio channel.  
Hmmm...wondering if this setting has something to do with it...going to change 
this do "do nothing".RIght now I don't see any effect but what the heck...


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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Bill Somerville]

On 06/04/2018 10:05, Bill Somerville wrote:
As an aside I suspect that may have this ALC overshoot issue without 
knowing about it because their power output meters on their rigs or 
externally are not able to respond fast enough to register it.


Sorry, typo there, should be:

As an aside I suspect that *many* have this ALC overshoot issue without 
knowing about it because their power output meters on their rigs or 
externally are not able to respond fast enough to register it.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Bill Somerville]

On 06/04/2018 05:38, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
Your picture didn't come through.  But I did another collection using 
Audacity via WASAPI and don't see it now.
The reason I looked was an apparent power jump on my wattmeter at the 
start of the transmission.
Now that I'm watching via WASAPI I don't see the power jump anymore.  
Quit Audacity and the power jump comes back.
Getting very irregular behavior.  That starting amplitude sometimes 
come in at 0.5V, sometimes at 0.1, sometimes at 1.0 -- can't quite 
find a repeatable pattern.  I guess I'd like to record directly from 
WSJT-X to see if there's a comparison to be had.
And a friend of mine with an IC7300 was seeing the same thing on his 
rig too.  Plus others have now chimed in and said they see the power 
jump too.  Could it be random?  What determines the level of the preamble?



Hi Mike,

Steve's image came through here as an attachment without issue. It was a 
perfect constant envelope trace with a clean start up, which is exactly 
what I would expect. I'm also sure that if he looked at the first few 
cycles it would show the tone sinusoid starting exactly at zero 
amplitude and raising cleanly to full amplitude.


Many rigs suffer ALC overshoot after initial switch to Tx mode, some 
Icoms are particularly prone but almost all rigs suffer. The Icom 
IC-7300 has menu settings to adjust the timing between switching to Tx 
and modulation starting, I assume by adding some delay into it's Tx DSP. 
Also anyone using transmitter VOX or an interface like the SignaLink USB 
that is effectively VOX should be careful to check that their rig does 
not overshoot it's output power as any ALC circuit has some loop delay 
and cannot stabilize instantly. For rigs that suffer badly, particularly 
when an external PA might be vulnerable to excessive drive power spikes; 
one solution might be to reduce the audio input to control power rather 
than any power control on the rig itself.


As an aside I suspect that may have this ALC overshoot issue without 
knowing about it because their power output meters on their rigs or 
externally are not able to respond fast enough to register it.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Bill Somerville]

On 06/04/2018 04:37, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
I captured the output from WSJT-X via the VoiceMeter Banana port to my 
SDR (ANAN 100).

So it's an exact digital copy of what WSJT-X is producing.

Mike


HI Mike,

I can tell you for sure that trace is not an exact digital copy of what 
WSJT-X synthesizes. I would guess that you are seeing a signal that has 
some processing applied, maybe speech processing, maybe ALC.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Your picture didn't come through.  But I did another collection using Audacity 
via WASAPI and don't see it now.The reason I looked was an apparent power jump 
on my wattmeter at the start of the transmission.Now that I'm watching via 
WASAPI I don't see the power jump anymore.  Quit Audacity and the power jump 
comes back.Getting very irregular behavior.  That starting amplitude sometimes 
come in at 0.5V, sometimes at 0.1, sometimes at 1.0 -- can't quite find a 
repeatable pattern.  I guess I'd like to record directly from WSJT-X to see if 
there's a comparison to be had.
And a friend of mine with an IC7300 was seeing the same thing on his rig too.  
Plus others have now chimed in and said they see the power jump too.  Could it 
be random?  What determines the level of the preamble?





 

On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 9:08:53 PM CDT, Steven Franke 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Mike, 
I don’t see any evidence of problems when I look at the WSJT-X Tx audio 
directly. I’ve attached a screen shot showing my recording of the Tx audio. I 
captured this audio by routing the WSJT-X TX audio through SoundFlower (an 
audio loopback device) and into the Audacity sound editor on my OS X machine. 
This plot shows about 700ms of audio.  
Steve k9an


On Apr 5, 2018, at 10:43 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:
I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.
The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  beginning 
of the audio.
At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many people 
have RF problems when Tx starts.
<1522968118900blob.jpg>
de Mike W9MDB

 

<1522968118900blob.jpg>--
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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Gene Marsh]

WSJT-X or your sound card?  

73 de W8NET Gene
3905 Century Club Master #47
Portage County Amateur Radio Service (PCARS) since 2008
ARRL A-1 Op

> On Apr 5, 2018, at 11:37 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> I captured the output from WSJT-X via the VoiceMeter Banana port to my SDR 
> (ANAN 100).
> So it's an exact digital copy of what WSJT-X is producing.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 6:11:58 PM CDT, Bill Somerville 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 05/04/2018 23:43, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
>> I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.
>> 
>> The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  
>> beginning of the audio.
>> 
>> At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many 
>> people have RF problems when Tx starts.
>> 
>> 
>> de Mike W9MDB
>> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> what are we looking at here, how did you capture the audio you showed a plot 
> of?
> 
> 73
> Bill
> G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

I captured the output from WSJT-X via the VoiceMeter Banana port to my SDR 
(ANAN 100).So it's an exact digital copy of what WSJT-X is producing.
Mike



 

On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 6:11:58 PM CDT, Bill Somerville 
 wrote:  
 
  On 05/04/2018 23:43, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
  I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings. 
  The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  
beginning of the audio. 
  At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many people 
have RF problems when Tx starts. 
  
  de Mike W9MDB
   

 
Hi Mike,
 
what are we looking at here, how did you capture the audio you showed a plot of?
 
73
 Bill
 G4WJS.
 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Steven Franke]

Hi Mike, 

I don’t see any evidence of problems when I look at the WSJT-X Tx audio 
directly. I’ve attached a screen shot showing my recording of the Tx audio. I 
captured this audio by routing the WSJT-X TX audio through SoundFlower (an 
audio loopback device) and into the Audacity sound editor on my OS X machine. 
This plot shows about 700ms of audio.  

Steve k9an


> On Apr 5, 2018, at 10:43 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.
> 
> The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  
> beginning of the audio.
> 
> At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many people 
> have RF problems when Tx starts.
> 
> <1522968118900blob.jpg>
> de Mike W9MDB
> 
> 
> 
> <1522968118900blob.jpg>--
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! 
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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Ed Wilson via wsjt-devel]

I guess this is why I did not see a power increase since I have never changed 
the default delay of 0.2 sec. I also used the “eyeball” method of observing the 
signal in the time domain rather than an oscilloscope, so I probably missed the 
initial spike in power.

> On Apr 5, 2018, at 6:43 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.
> 
> The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  
> beginning of the audio.
> 
> At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many people 
> have RF problems when Tx starts.
> 
> <1522968118900blob.jpg>
> de Mike W9MDB
> 
> 
> 
> <1522968118900blob.jpg>
> --
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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Bill Somerville]

On 05/04/2018 23:43, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.

The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  
beginning of the audio.


At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many 
people have RF problems when Tx starts.


Inline image
de Mike W9MDB


Hi Mike,

what are we looking at here, how did you capture the audio you showed a 
plot of?


73
Bill
G4WJS.

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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

I found that this is related to the Tx delay settings.
The lower the Tx delay setting (< 0.2) the more max amplitude at the  beginning 
of the audio.
At 0.2 there's just a small portion but this may help explain why many people 
have RF problems when Tx starts.

de Mike W9MDB

 

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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[Ed Wilson via wsjt-devel]

I built r8603 this morning and in a limited amount of operating FT8 on 80 and 
30 meters, the output power seems to be rock solid. I run a Flex-6700 but that, 
of course, should not matter..
Ed, K0KC
k0kc@arrl.nethttp://k0kc.us/ 

On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 1:09:29 PM EDT, rjai...@gmail.com 
 wrote:  
 
 I thought it was just me, but yes I also see this.
RiaN2RJ
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 1:01 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
 wrote:

Running R8603 and seeing a power level that seems too high at start of 
transmission (both Tune and standard messages on FT8).This is about 50% more 
power than the rest of the signal being transmitted.Is this intentional?




de Mike W9MDB


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Re: [wsjt-devel] r8603 power at qso start

[rjai...@gmail.com]

I thought it was just me, but yes I also see this.

Ria
N2RJ

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 1:01 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel <
wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Running R8603 and seeing a power level that seems too high at start of
> transmission (both Tune and standard messages on FT8).
> This is about 50% more power than the rest of the signal being transmitted.
> Is this intentional?
>
> [image: Inline image]
>
>
> de Mike W9MDB
>
>
> 
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