Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
Great discussion here, I'm pretty sure that it isn't the purpose of the list, but i think it`s important to discuss organization methods. Like said below, we're so busy most of the time dealing with what is given to us (a third of the time, or whatever) and also actually DOING stuff, that we don't take the time to step back and think outside of the box on what's really needed to sort the mess of our lives. I, for one, am still searching for my ultimate system, and have, in the past, written drafts/specs of an ideal organization software. Those drafts are availiable at: http://notariussystem.blogspot.com/ My most recent post (the only recent post, that is) offers a good abstract of what i'm searching for. If anyone is interested enough, please take a look on it. As time goes, i plan to detail it further. Cheers, -Paulo On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Luis Roca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith I'm not getting a sense that your sincerely happy for me. Maybe I'm just a little insecure. I don't know but this is neither the time or the place for that discussion. : ) Scott responded to this but since you directed it at me it's only fair that I give you an answer. I N-E-V-E-R said I use or would suggest to use Yojimbo as a total GTD tool. There is NO total GTD tool, not OmniFocus, not Things, not kGTD, not Entourage, etc. You're right Yojimbo is part of my system (the archive). That's all any piece of software can hope to be, a part of a complete system. This is repeated throughout the book beginning in the preface. There are people on this list that use Yojimbo as their primary process and review tool within their daily GTDing. I'm honestly not sure how effective it can be over a long period of time but I'd love to hear more about it. Everything else ends up in the *correct* folder. There is such a thing as the *correct* folder as there are such things as objective hierarchies -- ones which capture real relationships between things. You can think of genus-species groupings in biology, or project-file groupings in your work. Where such groupings exist, a hierarchical file structure has real value, but they take some thinking about to be stable/valuable-- which is why the profession of 'librarian' exists for one. Carlton, You make excellent points and I find it interesting that you're using Yojimbo as an inbox where you go back to identify/process the information at a later date. It's much different than how I use it and seems like a solid system. You hit at the initial point that I was trying to make which was the importance of the initial identification process of a digital asset. I do have to respectfully disagree with the idea of a *correct* folder. I'm not saying it doesn't exist or can't be part of a larger organizational system. I just think this method can easily (and often does) break down when a second user is introduced to the system. Everyone on this list has probably had the uncomfortable sensation of starting a new job and being welcomed with a new folder structure to learn. Your'e at the mercy of whoever decided on the file and folder naming structure (Who may not even be with the company anymore). Tags,notes/comments, saved searches, etc. offer a solution that tech savy librarians and information architects have been promoting recently. (*See : Ambient Findability by Peter Morville and Keeping Found Things Found by William Jones) Anyone and everyone can name an item without stepping on your coworker or boss' toes. You name an item in a meaningful way to you, and others get to do the same. A new employee can find a file in a shorter period of time and without having to shamefully ask her cubicle mate when searching for file 03.5248-Financials.doc that's buried in a seven level folder structure on the external corporate database. I've read that the average professional spends a third of their week looking for information that they have previously encountered! So as well as folders have worked for some people, more fluid systems need to be put in place for the rest of us. I've helped turn this into exactly what I didn't want - The Continuing Saga of Nested Folders - It ends here! : ) Luis -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
I do have to respectfully disagree with the idea of a *correct* folder. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist or can’t be part of a larger organizational system. I just think this method can easily (and often does) break down when a second user is introduced to the system. Within the context of Yojimbo this argument has no meaning. Yojimbo isn't a shared program so we are free to put things - or tag them - however we choose - unless you are suggesting that two people are sharing a single account. And that is a recipe for all kinds of disasters. But let me go further. I really fail to see how tags are any better in the context of your argument. Whether I am tagging or filing in folders, if someone new is added to the mix they have to learn the system. Both Yojimbo and the Finder fail miserably when it comes to tags in this respect - neither provide a convenient way to see a master list of tags AND the files associated with them. (At least Yojimbo gives me a master list in Preferences but then I have to close Preferences and search on a couple tags.) When I open a folder I can see a group of files that are (at least in my case) named descriptively and color coded. But since the Finder and Yojimbo don't make it easy to both browse tags AND the files associated with them, I don't think tags are superior to folders. Give Yojimbo an interface similar to Leap which DOES provide a list of tags and immediate feedback on the files with that tag and your argument takes on greater force. But not now. As far as I can see, Tags have two major advantages over folders (1) I can give one file a multitude of tags whereas I can (conveniently)put a file in only one folder and (2) a tagged file is virtually hierarchical whereas a file inside a nested folder is physically hierarchical. The advantage is that I can quickly and easily change the tagged files hierarchy by changing my search criteria but a file in nested folders has to be physically moved. These advantages are nothing to be sneezed at but I'd also argue that one of the reasons that folders and nested folders have worked for so long isn't just a matter of habit but also because human beings are spacial thinkers. Folders provide a spacial context - tags don't. Thankfully Yojimbo provides an easy means to export data. My solution at present is quite workable, though I wish I didn't have this added step. I collect and tag in Yojimbo. When I'm ready to start arranging my collection - because I am a spacial thinker - I export the data by tagged collections and import it into DevonThink Pro. And here's an irony for you - having imported the data into DTP - I don't use nested folders - I simply import the data into folders just as they were exported by tags. Since DevonThink Professional lets me have multiple databases, I can use un-nested folders. The biggest reason I find a need for nested folders in Yojimbo is because everything is all jumbled together in one huge library. -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
Luis, On 3 May 2008, at 15:40, Luis Roca wrote: I do have to respectfully disagree with the idea of a *correct* folder. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist or can’t be part of a larger organizational system. I just think this method can easily (and often does) break down when a second user is introduced to the system. There's a reason that *correct* has *quotes*. :-) You are of course right that hierarchical systems can and do (often) breakdown. I'd argue that that is because they are arrived at too quickly. In order to be stable they must pick out real relationships and groupings. (I should have emphasised this.) Just examine the history of zoology or botany for plenty of examples. (Is a whale a fish?, and all that...) Also, I didn't realise Yojimbo was a multi-user product. :-) (*See : “Ambient Findability” by Peter Morville and “Keeping Found Things Found” by William Jones) Thanks for the reference. I'll check it out. May I suggest Aristotle's Categories in an attempt for balance. BTW, I am a big fan of tagging -- for all number of reasons -- and, even when things are in their *correct* folder, how do I locate things? Spotlight of course. :-) Have a good weekend. Regards, Carlton -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
Perfect. I find tagging and fast searching are the only features I need (though there are some bugs with search). I chose Yojimbo because it *didn't* have a cluttered hierarchy of folders. I use the same model of tag-and-search for GMail, Expression Media and even my Mac -- I have no dock, I just use Spotlight to launch my apps. I find, for me, this is definitely the most productive and reliable way for GTD. thanks, brian On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Luis Roca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lorin and Kenneth identified the real issue very well. I think a lot of the discomfort with not having nested folders is due to a habit of putting off properly identifying an item. We keep bringing up the book Getting Things Done but the idea of nested folders and multiple library databases are in stark contrast to the very first steps of GTD. Folders poorly identify information. At best they just create more inboxes. Because you haven't properly identified the specific item you will waste more time searching six weeks down the road when you need to produce a receipt, or email the photo of your family eating pizza in Times Square to your sister. Tagging is a far more fluid way to identify something at the very moment it enters your system. Folders don't address how a group of individuals identify with a piece of information. You may remember the photo by the name of the 'Pizzeria'. Your wife may remember it by 'Times Square'. Your kids might type a search for 'extra cheese'. Do none of those make sense to you? They don't have to. They only need to be meaningful to the person searching for the information at that point in time. Anyone and everyone at home and at work can identify information any way they want without stepping on someone else's toes or creating numerous folders and versions of the same file. This is why I find it a little strange whenever someone posts a need to limit the tags they use. Why? Yojimbo is a simple, transparent, semantic based information archiving and retrieving application. It implements a contemporary view of organization. Continue to use nested folders if you must. I would strongly recommend beginning a trasition to a semantic based organizational system. Have a great weekend everyone! Luis -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
Perhaps there's a context within which the paragraph below explains how tags are superior to folders but it eludes me. I'm not arguing that tags don't have value and aren't at times more valuable than folders, but this paragraph doesn't explain it to me. Folders don’t address how a group of individuals identify with a piece of information. You may remember the photo by the name of the ‘Pizzeria’. Your wife may remember it by ‘Times Square’. Your kids might type a search for ‘extra cheese’. Do none of those make sense to you? They don’t have to. They only need to be meaningful to the person searching for the information at that point in time. Anyone and everyone at home and at work can identify information any way they want without stepping on someone else’s toes or creating numerous folders and versions of the same file. This is why I find it a little strange whenever someone posts a need to limit the tags they use. Why? -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
On May 2, 2008, at 9:49 AM, david wrote: Perhaps there's a context within which the paragraph below explains how tags are superior to folders but it eludes me. I'm not arguing that tags don't have value and aren't at times more valuable than folders, but this paragraph doesn't explain it to me. Yes, I agree with David. There are cases where tagging works nicely, and I'm actually satisfied with that in Yojimbo. But in other cases, I prefer the visual aid of being able to see a hierarchical structure of my data. This particularly holds true whenever I do lots of browsing or manual reviewing of the information. That's one of the reasons I prefer OmniFocus for implementing GTD. Yojimbo's strengths lie elsewhere. Hierarchical structures (nested folders) are certainly *not* in stark contrast to the very first steps of GTD! After all, placing an item in a folder is essentially a way to tag it with a bit of information for later retrieval. The advantage of true tagging is that it allows you to apply *multiple* bits of information to an item. However, the disadvantage is that tagging is a higher-level cognitive function, requiring more thought to recall and assign a variety of tag names. This is often a distraction from the primary task at hand and leads to inefficiency. That's exactly why I *avoid* tagging my items as I add them to Yojimbo. I can always return later to further tag them if I feel it's necessary, but usually I simply rely on content searches, which makes organizational method virtually irrelevant anyway. Tagging and hierarchical structures are both just tools to organize your data. Neither is a an end all, be all solution. Sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes you need a screw driver. Use the right tool for the job. For random data collection and storage in Yojimbo, tagging works nicely. -Dennis PS - The idea of tagging being a high-level cognitive function is similar to Tog's research on mouse vs. keyboard. Read more at: http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
On May 2, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Luis Roca wrote: Lorin and Kenneth identified the real issue very well. I think a lot of the discomfort with not having nested folders is due to a habit of putting off properly identifying an item. We keep bringing up the book “Getting Things Done” but the idea of nested folders and multiple library databases are in stark contrast to the very first steps of GTD. Folders poorly identify information. At best they just create more inboxes. Because you haven’t properly identified the specific item you will waste more time searching six weeks down the road when you need to produce a receipt, or email the photo of your family eating pizza in Times Square to your sister. Tagging is a far more fluid way to identify something at the very moment it enters your system. Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is perfect for your way of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think that everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our data in physical divisions. And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital junk drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to fit into the GTD principles. Keith -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
HEAR HEAR! On May 2, 2008, at 18:19, Scott J. Lopez wrote: No one said Yojimbo is a GTD tool, but apparently people use it for that given the number of posts that reference it. There are several Mac programs specifically for GTD actually, should anyone want them (search versiontracker.com). As for someone being pompous isn't it a little pompous for all the people saying that Yojimbo _has to have_ XXX feature or the program is worthless/useless/they won't buy it. As I've pointed out in a previous post, there is a trial period (thank you Bare Bones) with using Yojimbo. If it doesn't fit your needs, move on, but whining on this list I won't buy it because it doesn't have XXX is pretty bad. I can understand why BB won't respond to feature request emails any more with an attitude like that. Yojimbo obviously has all the features Bare Bone wanted to put into it, if someone wants something different they could write it up themselves. Now I didn't mean to turn this into a flame war, but I'm pretty tired of hearing people complain Yojimbo won't make coffee, clean up after the dog, and turn down their beds at night. This is supposed to be a support list, a place to share with each other how we use Yojimbo, tips and tricks, etc. On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Keith Ledbetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is perfect for your way of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think that everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our data in physical divisions. And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital junk drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to fit into the GTD principles. Keith -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
Personally, along as it's civil, I think a bit of heated debate is all good fun - livens things up a bit! :o) T. On 2 May 2008, at 23:19, Scott J. Lopez wrote: No one said Yojimbo is a GTD tool, but apparently people use it for that given the number of posts that reference it. There are several Mac programs specifically for GTD actually, should anyone want them (search versiontracker.com). As for someone being pompous isn't it a little pompous for all the people saying that Yojimbo _has to have_ XXX feature or the program is worthless/useless/they won't buy it. As I've pointed out in a previous post, there is a trial period (thank you Bare Bones) with using Yojimbo. If it doesn't fit your needs, move on, but whining on this list I won't buy it because it doesn't have XXX is pretty bad. I can understand why BB won't respond to feature request emails any more with an attitude like that. Yojimbo obviously has all the features Bare Bone wanted to put into it, if someone wants something different they could write it up themselves. Now I didn't mean to turn this into a flame war, but I'm pretty tired of hearing people complain Yojimbo won't make coffee, clean up after the dog, and turn down their beds at night. This is supposed to be a support list, a place to share with each other how we use Yojimbo, tips and tricks, etc. On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Keith Ledbetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is perfect for your way of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think that everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our data in physical divisions. And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital junk drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to fit into the GTD principles. Keith -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list yojimbo-talk@barebones.com. To unsubscribe, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List archives: http://www.listsearch.com/yojimbotalk.lasso Have a feature request, or not sure if the software's working correctly? Please send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
