Re: [Zen] The BBC on Zen
Hi, Anthony If you like to have a good time thinking, take notice that old testament begins with Elohim. Elohim is the plural of Elohi (God). So, it begins by The Gods... Food for though With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:42 PM Subject: RE: [Zen] The BBC on Zen Bill, You say, I also have a belief that the experience of Buddha Mind is THE basic religious experience as described by most all religions - especially Christianity with which I am most familiar. Please give me good examples. Among those that run counter to the belief is Christian faith in personalized God, reward and punishment by that God, and his ability to 'absolve' sinners. Let alone the God described in the Old Testament, who ordered killing and torturing. Anthony --- On Sat, 4/12/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] The BBC on Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 4 December, 2010, 10:27 AM ED, My responses are embedded below: [ED] Bill, from whom did you first learn of the existence of two separate entities, 'zen' and 'Zen' (Zen Buddhism)? [Bill!] I discovered that myself, although I might have received a hint of this from my first teacher (Koryu Roshi) was a lay roshi from the Japanese Zen Buddhist Rinzai tradition who deemphasized the importance of taking vows. There are also a lot of references in traditional zen literature that could be interpreted to support this: 'If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him', tales of Buddhist scholars that burned their books after becoming enlightened, the constant use of everyday objects and activities rather than religious objects and activities by ancient zen masters when asked about Buddha Mind. Now of course I probably read into those what I want to hear to support my belief. I also have a belief that the experience of Buddha Mind is THE basic religious experience as described by most all religions - especially Christianity with which I am most familiar. If this experience is universal then it is not exclusively Buddhist. I think it is universal and it is just expressed in different cultures and societies using the language they have available. This is why I say Zen Buddhism is a Buddhist expression of zen. [ED]Are the centres established by Maezumi, Shunryu Suzuki, Joshu Sazaki and other Japanese Teachers 'zen' centers or 'Zen Buddhist' centers? [Bill!] The Zen Center of Los Angeles (ZCLA) established by Maezumi Roshi and the several satellite centers are Zen Buddhist centers. I can't speak to the other roshi's centers but I'd expect them to be Zen Buddhist centers. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5672 (20101203) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv!
Hi, Mayka Thanks a lot for the link. I am right now listening to it. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Maria Lopez To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv! Chris and Lluis: Thank you for such a sweet thought!. It brought a big smile on me. I paste here a video with Spanish subtittles created by myself with the chanting and practise of Metta sending energy to the 10 directions. Tibetan Photographs from this video were passed onto me by a young Tibetan gentleman who is not a monastic but lives in Tibet. I've found very beautiful this practise of Metta. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6aBQ5bHbg Lay back Members and enjoy sending energy to 10 directions!!! Mayka --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv! To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 21:38 I really enjoy interacting with the zen forum. It is entertaining and educational (in the old sense, to be led out of myself). I bow to the ten directions in gratitude. May the winds of this day find all of you well! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
Hi, Ed, Anthony To help the others you should be able. Without the oxygen mask, you could not help. Extrem: only an oxygen mask. Well, probably I will renounce to it on behalf of anyone that is in my heart ( (yes, attachement. But compassion is also attachement, as I understand) Any listizen have read Alfred Van Vogt books on Non-A worlds? He said a thing that I find relevant: the word is not the thing, although many (myslef included) think in terms of words, not things. You should trascend words. I equal it to trascend duality. Disclaimer: alfred got blind because he tried to cure his miopy looking at sun, as per a something that erases all dismissing mentions to it in internet prayed. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book ED, You say: Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone? My suggestion: fly to Dharamsala and ask Dalai Lama. (It is an essential mahayana teaching that you should help others before helping yourself.) Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:46 PM Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone? A mother who really cares for her child will put on her own oxygen mask first. On the other hand, The life of an enlightened being is like the shadow of a bird on water. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on other people before you have it on yourself. You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil is necessary. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv!
Hi, Chris I am used to 4 or a multiple of for directions of wind. 10? May you be so kind to explain which ones to an ignorant? With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ChrisAustinLane To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:38 PM Subject: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv! I really enjoy interacting with the zen forum. It is entertaining and educational (in the old sense, to be led out of myself). I bow to the ten directions in gratitude. May the winds of this day find all of you well! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
Re: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv!
Thanks, Chris I did not consider up and down... Anthony, you see, very low IQ... :-) With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ChrisAustinLane To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv! I was mixing metaphors there. 10 directions is traditional in zen sutras for all the world. (north, south, east, west, ne, se, nw, sw up and d I am at a beach along California highway 1, a windy beautiful place. The winds of the world flow all along without discrimination, and sending thanks from this windy brisk day to all you all over the world it seemed an appropriate image. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lanem Sent from a cell phone On Nov 25, 2010, at 13:42, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: Hi, Chris I am used to 4 or a multiple of for directions of wind. 10? May you be so kind to explain which ones to an ignorant? With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ChrisAustinLane To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:38 PM Subject: [Zen] Thanks for an engaging listserv! I really enjoy interacting with the zen forum. It is entertaining and educational (in the old sense, to be led out of myself). I bow to the ten directions in gratitude. May the winds of this day find all of you well! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Many thanks, Anthony As far as I understand Buddhism, only different ways. Any of them would be the appropiate for me. Just trying to find it. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices Lluis, Probably both Emperor Akbhar and the Sixth Patriarch Huinent were dislexic, and both were very intelligent as well. They have a lot in common. The Sixth Patriarch Huineng does not belong to any Tibetan lineages such as represented by Naropa, Tilopa etc. Huineng belongs to the lineage initiated by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who came to China to start the zen school. Some compare Tibetan Tantrism to color TV, while zen, black and white TV. If you can enjoy the simplicity of a black and white TV, welcome to zen. Otherwise a color TV is more colorful. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 5:34 AM Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
Hi, all Not zen, just meaning -Beleiving is the confirmation that we do not know. If you know, you do not beleive, you *know* -As my teacher in inorganic chemistry said we can talk a lot, but no ones knows what is over the roof. He is Jesuit. Theology apart of chemistry Besides, I beleive in reincarnation.. But, who cares? Soon or later we will know who is right. No one is inmortal. Well, if the solipsim theory is avoided(you should beleive that things you see are real, that is not just a dream...) Even in maths there are things that by definition are (well, *are*) With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Kristy McClain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book Anthony, I don't have, or really need a theory. I do not believe we had previous incarnations. In my heart, I think that when we die, we simply die. After that, we exist in the memories of those who knew us when we were alive. Perhaps that is my type of karma. We all have a profound ability to shape the lives of others. We help mold future events with our choices, decisions and our behavior, while we are alive now. That is where history is written. For me, this is where zen practice can guide us. Have a great week Kristy --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:06 PM Kristy, I think you are saying you are an agnostic. Many are the same. Deep in my heart, I hold the same point of view. However, in the absence of a better theory, I believe karma is the best belief. Can you propose a better alternative? Anthony --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 5:42 AM Anthony, I don't think you are wrong at all about this. I'm not a Catholic, but the Pope has a lot more to answer for , in addition to what you point out. I think my point to Ed was that all of these beliefs and scriptures are the products of mortal mankind. I understand that religious leaders believe they are the direct words of God, but that does not make that true. It also does not negate the possibility that there is a God. I don't know that I believe there is, but I also don't know that there isn't. I'd like to believe that God is compassion for all things. Perhaps God is reflected in how we treat each other. I would like to think that a belief like that would bring out the best we each can offer, though I know that isn't always so. Clearly, history points that out. I think I'm saying that its time to take responsibility for our own behavior, individually and collectively, in order to solve problems and prevent repeating the miseries of the past. Using God as a shield or a sword in such events is the fault of mankind, but not necessarily the fault of God. Kristy --- On Sun, 11/21/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 2:09 PM Kristy, The problem is the Pope still thinks the Old Testament, which is full of horrifying stories, is part of Christianity. If I am wrong, please point it out. Anthony --- On Sun, 21/11/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 10:20 AM Ed, I certainly respect your position on this, but after looking at the link you gave, I have a queston... If the Bible and other events were recorded by mortal humans, how can you be certain these accounts are the divine intentions of God? Could they reflect mankind trying to understand the world around
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Bill Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist. But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard before. So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar. Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. Just the language (or just this) The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated. Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not for you. You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), or you feel not. No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there. Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness With best wishes Lluís P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish Rana Charco Chop! would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least) - Original Message - From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, I'm not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that describe action. That's a given. What I'm saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not restricted by grammar. In the example phrases I used below: 'Hungry!' and 'Fire!', YOU are the one who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell 'Fire!' or 'Duck!' you will first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally reconstruct and augment the sound to 'I have observed a fire and want to be sure you are aware of it.' Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind: ORIGINAL JAPANESE Furu ike ya kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto (Basho) DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION There once was a curious frog Who sat by a pond on a log And, to see what resulted, In the pond catapulted With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks) MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION Into the ancient pond A frog jumps Water's sound! (D.T. Suzuki) BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION pond frog plop! (James Kirkup) Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'. The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'. The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to 'understand' language. 'Understand' always means 'impose a logical structure'. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lluís Mendieta Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi, Bill Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry! Fire! has also one, it : It is in fire! (although could be also there is a fire! and that would be impersonal, I suppose) Uggh! Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french On vende . Se vende botellas (se venden botellas is a pasiva refleja, not a true impersonal That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat) Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:39 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, In the example I used 'Hungry?' you are correct that the subject (you) is implied probably because it is a question. How about 'Hungry!'; or better yet 'Fire!'?. In the case of 'Fire!' there is no subject/object
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Dear Anthony Thanks for info! Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, Conversational Japanese is not that hard, but the written language will require life effort. Standard Tibetan is not tonal, but some of their dialects are. They are interesting, but not much use. Anthony --- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 6:02 AM Hi, Anthony Being not too long ago in Japan, and speaking spanish (among others), I could say that japanese is not that hard for a spanish speaker: sounds are easy to recognize. Not being tonal is also a plus for us. Tones are hard to understand for anyone that have never heard those. Other would be writting... :-( I have heard also tibetan, but in ceremonies, so, not sure if easy for me or not... With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas ED, North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute majority Chinese population, which have been influenced by Central Asian Conquerers that brought in genetic and language elements. So the language tend to be multisyllables. In contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with complicated tonal systems, like Thai. It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and Japanese. The latter is probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan. Anthony --- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM Bill, If one looks at the family tree of population groups based on genetic distance (in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), one notices that: S. Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos are closely related, belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'. On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai probably orginate from: The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and characteristics indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled with much influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the neighbouring pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced primarily by Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from China, and southern India. Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities of Muslims (4.6%), Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. Thai Theravada Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks receiving a number of government benefits, such as free use of the public transportation infrastructure. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Anthony, Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao. It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix. Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also have a lot of Indian qualities. And physically I think the people that look the closest to Thais are Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Good point But, where come from the citizens of Atlantis and from which planet come the Ancient Astronauts? :-) Quite curious to hear theories. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:00 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Ed and Lluis, Maybe the Basques are direct descendents of the Ancient Astronauts, or survivors of Atlantis. What do you think? .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:50 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Ed Thanks for map They forget the basques... Hi Lluis, The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been fully resolved yet. From wiki: Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the spread of Indo-European languages there. It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they already spoke Basque in that time. The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the large Indo-European language family. Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of cultural transmission.[19] Theories about Basque origins The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a pre-Indo-European population of Europe. DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result of DNA analysis, ...there is a general scientific consensus that the Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic and genetic evidence... Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably 45,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from West Asia. Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are not related genetically a) something is missing in study b) language has nothing to do with population origin Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical. I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans are completely related and different form neigbourgs. Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables. A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, that could show a very distorted image of reality. Would be like to see world through a small hole. With best wishes Lluís __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5619 (20101114) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5619 (20101114) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Ed Sorry for my poor english I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for that, hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom. And probably population origin in Asia Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come here as invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin) I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe very well wrong, Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:33 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Lluis, 'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of languages. See chart below. With best wishes, --ED http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, are rather speculative. The theory of the Nostratic languages, which combines Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the Basque-Chinese connection. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Ed Well, I am at lost in what you mind I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. (so, roots in east). But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-) With best wishes Lluís Hi Lluis, Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, depending on their roles in the sentence. Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages spoken around the Baltic Sea. The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language Wist best wishes, --ED Hi, Bill I beg to differ in two non zen questions -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied. The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in english. -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the relationship within family. With best wishes Lluís Anthony, I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy. For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being casual in your speech. I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put more importance on personal relationships than time. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Ed Thanks for map They forget the basques... Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are not related genetically a) something is missing in study b) language has nothing to do with population origin Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical. I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans are completely related and different form neigbourgs. Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables. A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, that could show a very distorted image of reality. Would be like to see world through a small hole. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:41 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Genetic map of Europe http://bigthink.com/ideas/21358 Two observations spring to mind immediately: the fact that most populations overlap so intimately with their neighbours. And that Finland doesn't. The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they were at one time a very small population, preserving its genetic idiosyncrasies as it expanded. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Ed Sorry for my poor english I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for that, hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom. And probably population origin in Asia Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come here as invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin) I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe very well wrong, Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. With best wishes Lluís
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Ed I know, I know Having myself basque blood (my family name is basque), I searched all the theories that appear and go.. Last I have heard related basque to georgian. The link with kelts I think is discarded at present. Also the relationship to georgian... Will see... With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:50 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Ed Thanks for map They forget the basques... Hi Lluis, The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been fully resolved yet. From wiki: Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the spread of Indo-European languages there. It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they already spoke Basque in that time. The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the large Indo-European language family. Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of cultural transmission.[19] Theories about Basque origins The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a pre-Indo-European population of Europe. DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result of DNA analysis, ...there is a general scientific consensus that the Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic and genetic evidence... Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably 45,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from West Asia. Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are not related genetically a) something is missing in study b) language has nothing to do with population origin Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical. I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans are completely related and different form neigbourgs. Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables. A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, that could show a very distorted image of reality. Would be like to see world through a small hole. With best wishes Lluís
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Ed Agreed. As was said, I do not rely too much in such statistics, As I said before, another genetic map related irish, bristish, basques and catalans. Just take the cut in the multidimension surface you need and you could get whatever you wish (among some limits...That could be very broad) With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:14 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Ed Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are not related genetically a) something is missing in study b) language has nothing to do with population origin With best wishes, Lluis Hi Lluis, a) There is almost always something missing from any hypothesis concerning language origins. b) Language has much to do with population origins, but there are other factors too, like conquests, migrations, bottlenecks, etc., etc. With best wishes --ED Note (1): Hungarian language Closeup view of a Hungarian keyboard Alphabet õ û cs · dz · dzs · gy ly · ny · sz · ty · zs Grammar Noun phrases · Verbs T-V distinction History Sound correspondences with other Uralic languages Other features Phonetics and phonology Vowel harmony Orthography (Old Hungarian script) Hungarian names Tongue-twisters Hungarian and English Hungarian pronunciation of English English words from Hungarian Regulatory body v . d . e Hungarian (magyar nyelv) is a Uralic language in the Ugric language group, distantly related to Finnish, Estonian and a number of other minority languages spoken in the Baltic states and northern European Russia eastward into central Siberia. Finno-Ugric languages are not related to the Indo-European languages that dominate Europe but have acquired loan words from them. Note (2) Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages spoken around the Baltic Sea. Finnish demonstrates an affiliation with the Uralic languages in several respects including: a.. Shared morphology: ... a.. Shared basic vocabulary displaying regular sound correspondences with the other Uralic languages. Several theories exist as to the geographic origin of Finnish and the other Uralic languages, but the most widely held view is that they originated as a Proto-Uralic language somewhere in the boreal forest belt around the Ural Mountains region and/or the bend of the middle Volga. The strong case for Proto-Uralic is supported by common vocabulary with regularities in sound correspondences, as well as by the fact that the Uralic languages have many similarities in structure and grammar. The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns. Note (3) The relationship between Fuinnish and Hungarian languagges http://www.histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Anthony Being not too long ago in Japan, and speaking spanish (among others), I could say that japanese is not that hard for a spanish speaker: sounds are easy to recognize. Not being tonal is also a plus for us. Tones are hard to understand for anyone that have never heard those. Other would be writting... :-( I have heard also tibetan, but in ceremonies, so, not sure if easy for me or not... With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas ED, North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute majority Chinese population, which have been influenced by Central Asian Conquerers that brought in genetic and language elements. So the language tend to be multisyllables. In contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with complicated tonal systems, like Thai. It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and Japanese. The latter is probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan. Anthony --- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM Bill, If one looks at the family tree of population groups based on genetic distance (in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), one notices that: S. Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos are closely related, belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'. On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai probably orginate from: The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and characteristics indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled with much influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the neighbouring pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced primarily by Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from China, and southern India. Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities of Muslims (4.6%), Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. Thai Theravada Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks receiving a number of government benefits, such as free use of the public transportation infrastructure. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Anthony, Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao. It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix. Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also have a lot of Indian qualities. And physically I think the people that look the closest to Thais are Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Bill I beg to differ in two non zen questions -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied. The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in english. -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the relationship within family. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Anthony, I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy. For example, I could ask you: 'Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by saying: 'Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being casual in your speech. I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put more importance on personal relationships than time. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Ed Well, I am at lost in what you mind I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. (so, roots in east). But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-) With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 7:56 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, depending on their roles in the sentence. Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages spoken around the Baltic Sea. The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Bill I beg to differ in two non zen questions -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied. The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in english. -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the relationship within family. With best wishes Lluís Anthony, I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy. For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being casual in your speech. I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put more importance on personal relationships than time. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Anthony Just an ignorant, but what I have read about tantra practices of sex and eating meat, were accompanied with a disclaimer: the sex and eating meat were done as such in non inner circles. In the inner circles, was a metaphoric,or as you want to call it, thing. In this way, nothing that could not be done in a monastery. Would be like the catholic comunion: people are eating the flesh and blood of Christ under the form of a piece of bread. They were not cannibals. I also remember to have read that in the moment of climax the perception of reality could be glimpsed. Maybe like the mini satory in Zen. Could be. Could be not, I could not say. We depend in hormons, chemistry could play games... Even if that sounds too close to solipsism Books were from i belived where serious sources. But as I said, I am an ignorant. I have not a teacher, and the stay in a buddhist community in Catalonia raised me some (well, a lot) questions. So With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Kristy, I appreciate your candor and enjoy your stories. I understand you had an eventless nde, but colorful sex experiences. You should be satisfied. Why should you question dharma, scriptures and the meaning of exitence? I know sex climax, LSD and ndes are all different, hard to compare. Forgetting how a senior runner should perform for the time being, my original question is how Tantra reconcile sexuality and Buddhism (LSD and nde are not yet in the game). I am not against sex, as long as it is carried out in an appropriate place, including an 'orgyhouse'. But it is a different matter when it is performed in a monastry. Anthony --- On Mon, 8/11/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 8 November, 2010, 6:25 AM Hi Anthony, You bring up a good point. I will say that while the particular experience I shared was fairly athletic in the physical sensations, I don't necessarily think that age or disability precludes this same inner intensity and, for lack of a better word, 'peak ' experience. Similarly, senior runners often complete marathons and experience the same endorphin highs as the younger participants. In those events, they are likely a result of physiology more so than spirit, but you understand my point. We all know that a major key to eroticism is between our ears, not our legs. I shared that particular experience because it was so very intense, yet it was not something born from practice, preparation or love. To the contrary. I met this man through mutual friends years ago. While there was an immediate physical attraction, I felt initially very intimidated by his career/ education and background. I thought he would be very judgemental of me, and I feel inadequate by comparison. Since we had no prior contact, and I had no reason to believe this would lead anywhere, I just decided to be gracious, but very down-to-earth and honest about myself. I was going to school in Palo Alto, and he lived in Newport Beach. When we met again in L.A. a few weeks later, this just 'happened'. Neither of us really knew how to handle it afterwards. I'm not sure I agree that a similar experience can be induced by-- say a drug like LSD. Yes-- hallucinogenics have induced some amazing altered states, but, I am doubtful they are the same. Not better nor worse, but different. Having had a near-death experience, I cannot report anything like I read in the books. I dunno-- I don't personally believe there is a 'recipe' that can be followed, learned, practiced or guided towards, so that one can experience this state of bliss / nirvana / enlightment / god-source and the like. It is, in fact, my total life experience that does make me question the dharma, the scriptures, the psycho-biology of the meaning of existence. Its not a zero-sum game. At this point in my life, I think there are different paths for each of us. Enjoy your eve.. Kristy --- On Sun, 11/7/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 2:12 PM Kristy, I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not so
Re: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory
Hi, Ed How you could be sure that an experience is not an illussion? A mirage is an illussion, and you experience it. Even in maths, all constructs rely in a set of axiomas, that by definition, could not be proven. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:53 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory Ed, Everything you think about is illusory. Illusions are illusory. Interpretations are illusory. Doctrines are illusory. Philosophical traditions are illusory. Everything you experience is reality. Reality is not illusory. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 11:44 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Reality in Buddhism not necessarily illusory Reality in Buddhism is not necessarily illusory, but it does have a diverse set of contrasting interpretations. See below. --ED Buddhism evolved a variety of doctrinal/philosophical traditions, each with its own ideas of reality. The Buddha promoted experience over theorizing. According to Karel Werner, Experience is ... the path most elaborated in early Buddhism. The doctrine on the other hand was kept low. The Buddha avoided doctrinal formulations concerning the final reality as much as possible in order to prevent his followers from resting content with minor achievements on the path in which the absence of the final experience could be substituted by conceptual understanding of the doctrine or by religious faith, a situation which sometimes occurs, in both varieties, in the context of Hindu systems of doctrine.[4] The Mahayana developed those statements he did make into an extensive, diverse set of sometimes contrasting descriptions of reality as it really is.[5] The Theravada school teaches that there is no universal personal god. The world as we know it does not have its origin in a primordial being such as Brahman or the Abrahamic God. What we see is only a product of transitory factors of existence, which depend functionally upon each other. 'The Buddha is said to have said: The world exists because of causal actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft. (Sutta-Nipata 654)[4] The word 'illusion' is frequently associated with Buddhism and the nature of reality. Some interpretations of Buddhism teach that reality is a coin with two sides: impermanence or anicca and the not-self characteristic or anatta, referred to as emptiness in some Mahayana schools. Above excerpts are from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism : __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5595 (20101105) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5595 (20101105) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Thanks, Anthony With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, I think the key difference between Amitabha and zen is that the former relies on 'others', while the latter, on yourself. These two are both nice and peaceful. Anthony --- On Thu, 4/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 11:46 PM Hi, Anthony Thanks for answer. Well, I am not the best to answer your question, bercause my knowledge of Zen is very, very superficial. Certainly I think that Mahayana stresses more in compassion, but being all following the teachings of the historical buddha, differences would be minor. The branch that cultivates Amithaba buddha, is considered Zen or is Mahayana? With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hello Lluis, Nice to have you on the forum. Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and zen are all in the same family. We are also going through 'globalization', so exchanges of ideas are inevitable. Mahayana particularly stresses compassion. That is the key Bodhisatva's idea. Do you think zen is lacking in compassion? If somebody says that, I would have difficulty in opposing. Anthony --- On Wed, 3/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 5:24 AM Good evening to all Just a new member, that feels buddhist, albeit in Mahayana or Tantrayana, not exactly Zen In Buddhism, as I understand, nothing is ones personal. All is for all sentient beings. Compassion is not a badge. Is what we should feel, as we need as a whole We all should reach nirvana. And no one will be free when still any sentient being has not reached nirvana. Or so I have understood. And I know that is hard, specially for me that I am not native english speaker, to verbalize such concepts Boddhishatva will explain... Anyway, my best wihes to all and my special wishes to the moderator who invited me (sorry, still tied to mundane things) And,as I learned in other forum, peace With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Bill wrote: [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. That definition satisfies me. Bill, Bill, Bill, The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts. However, questions come to mind (as usual): o Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and natural aspect of human nature? o Is not sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it none other than a stipulation that a person not possess genes for autism? o And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way? o For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus war-widows caused by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, Ed, Ed… I posted
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Thanks, Ed With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:04 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Not Zen. Mahayana/Vajrayana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amit%C4%81bha --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, LluÃs Mendieta lme...@... wrote: Hi, Anthony Thanks for answer. Well, I am not the best to answer your question, bercause my knowledge of Zen is very, very superficial. Certainly I think that Mahayana stresses more in compassion, but being all following the teachings of the historical buddha, differences would be minor. The branch that cultivates Amithaba buddha, is considered Zen or is Mahayana? With best wishes LluÃs
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Anthony Thanks for answer. Well, I am not the best to answer your question, bercause my knowledge of Zen is very, very superficial. Certainly I think that Mahayana stresses more in compassion, but being all following the teachings of the historical buddha, differences would be minor. The branch that cultivates Amithaba buddha, is considered Zen or is Mahayana? With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hello Lluis, Nice to have you on the forum. Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and zen are all in the same family. We are also going through 'globalization', so exchanges of ideas are inevitable. Mahayana particularly stresses compassion. That is the key Bodhisatva's idea. Do you think zen is lacking in compassion? If somebody says that, I would have difficulty in opposing. Anthony --- On Wed, 3/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 5:24 AM Good evening to all Just a new member, that feels buddhist, albeit in Mahayana or Tantrayana, not exactly Zen In Buddhism, as I understand, nothing is ones personal. All is for all sentient beings. Compassion is not a badge. Is what we should feel, as we need as a whole We all should reach nirvana. And no one will be free when still any sentient being has not reached nirvana. Or so I have understood. And I know that is hard, specially for me that I am not native english speaker, to verbalize such concepts Boddhishatva will explain... Anyway, my best wihes to all and my special wishes to the moderator who invited me (sorry, still tied to mundane things) And,as I learned in other forum, peace With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Bill wrote: [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. That definition satisfies me. Bill, Bill, Bill, The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts. However, questions come to mind (as usual): o Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and natural aspect of human nature? o Is not sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it none other than a stipulation that a person not possess genes for autism? o And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way? o For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus war-widows caused by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, Ed, Ed… I posted a quote attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas: I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it. You then asked: [Ed] Wherein do you perceive any intelligence or wisdom in St. Augustine's preference? [Bill!] I don't perceive any intelligence in St. Aquinas' statement above. I do however perceive a lot of wisdom. I perceive the wisdom in his stated preference for experience over knowledge. [Ed] What does St. Augustine mean by 'compassion'? [Bill!] I don't know and I don't care. The meaning of compassion is not important in the quote, in fact the quote itself says that. You can substitute any word you want for 'compassion' in his quote and the wisdom will still be there. [Ed] What do you understand 'compassion' to be? [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. That definition satisfies me. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi, Mayka Thanks for welcome Lluís is my real name, and yes, I am from Catalunya With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Maria Lopez To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hello Lluis: Welcome to the zen forum. is Lluis your real name or it's a nickname you have adopted to participate in this forum. Are you from Catalunya?. Mayka --- On Tue, 2/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 2 November, 2010, 21:24 Good evening to all Just a new member, that feels buddhist, albeit in Mahayana or Tantrayana, not exactly Zen In Buddhism, as I understand, nothing is ones personal. All is for all sentient beings. Compassion is not a badge. Is what we should feel, as we need as a whole We all should reach nirvana. And no one will be free when still any sentient being has not reached nirvana. Or so I have understood. And I know that is hard, specially for me that I am not native english speaker, to verbalize such concepts Boddhishatva will explain... Anyway, my best wihes to all and my special wishes to the moderator who invited me (sorry, still tied to mundane things) And,as I learned in other forum, peace With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: ED To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Bill wrote: [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. That definition satisfies me. Bill, Bill, Bill, The definition is consonant with ones I have seen in Buddhist texts. However, questions come to mind (as usual): o Is possessing 'compassion' a badge of merit, or is it a normal and natural aspect of human nature? o Is not sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it none other than a stipulation that a person not possess genes for autism? o And when we do experience compassion, is it not usually selectively directed toward persons we feel connected to in some way? o For instance, do we feel compassion for the million-plus war-widows caused by the US/UK/Australian invasion of Iraq? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, Ed, Ed… I posted a quote attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas: I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it. You then asked: [Ed] Wherein do you perceive any intelligence or wisdom in St. Augustine's preference? [Bill!] I don't perceive any intelligence in St. Aquinas' statement above. I do however perceive a lot of wisdom. I perceive the wisdom in his stated preference for experience over knowledge. [Ed] What does St. Augustine mean by 'compassion'? [Bill!] I don't know and I don't care. The meaning of compassion is not important in the quote, in fact the quote itself says that. You can substitute any word you want for 'compassion' in his quote and the wisdom will still be there. [Ed] What do you understand 'compassion' to be? [Bill!] I understand 'compassion' to mean 'to be aware of the feelings of others'. Merriam-Webster Online defines it as sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it. That definition satisfies me. ...Bill!
