Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is not reality. On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.comwrote: *I'm not an illusion. The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me. * --- On *Thu, 4/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net* wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 0:09 Aren't we all! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Nov 3, 2010, at 16:17, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. Anthony --- On *Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org * wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.comhttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM Ed, My comments are embedded below: [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not an experience, it is an illusion. o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion. o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? [Bill!] An illusion. [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these have a spiritual significance. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5586 (20101102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a massive illusion. --- On Thu, 4/11/10, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 10:03 I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is not reality. On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: I'm not an illusion. The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me. --- On Thu, 4/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 0:09 Aren't we all! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Nov 3, 2010, at 16:17, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. Anthony --- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM Ed, My comments are embedded below: [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not an experience, it is an illusion. o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion. o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? [Bill!] An illusion. [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these have a spiritual significance. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5586 (20101102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a massive illusion. --M M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? --E I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is not reality. --C Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursive mind. One would be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'. --E I'm not an illusion. The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me. --M Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What about the good in you? Is it illusory too? --E Aren't we all! --C We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as illusory. For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are illusory are acts of faith. --E Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. --A Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill that way? --E
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: Wouldn't be more practical and much more of a shortcut looking into yourself and see what is there?. Why do you want to know what is in me and not what is in you?. I don't understand very well your question: is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? . It sounds a nonsense question. A kind of entanglement of words and concepts. This is what one gets when depends upon the wikipedia dictionary and other definitions sources but not as much as within resources. Repeating what you hear won't do the trick either. Mayka --- On Thu, 4/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 15:46 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a massive illusion. --M M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? --E I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is not reality. --C Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursive mind. One would be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'. --E I'm not an illusion. The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me. --M Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What about the good in you? Is it illusory too? --E Aren't we all! --C We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as illusory. For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are illusory are acts of faith. --E Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. --A Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill that way? --E
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, I am sorry about that. The contents and the intent of my questions are not clearly stated, and so I withdraw the questions. I am quite certain this issue will raise its head again in the near future. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Wouldn't be more practical and much more of a shortcut looking into yourself and see what is there?. Why do you want to know what is in me and not what is in you?. I don't understand very well your question: is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? It sounds a nonsense question. kind of entanglement of words and concepts. This is what one gets when depends upon the wikipedia dictionary and other definitions sources but not as much as within resources. Repeating what you hear won't do the trick either. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@ wrote: Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a massive illusion. --M M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? --E I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is not reality. --C Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursive mind. One would be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'. --E I'm not an illusion. The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me. --M Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What about the good in you? Is it illusory too? --E Aren't we all! --C We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as illusory. For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are illusory are acts of faith. --E Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. --A Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill that way? --E
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. Anthony --- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM Ed, My comments are embedded below: [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not an experience, it is an illusion. o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion. o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? [Bill!] An illusion. [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these have a spiritual significance. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5586 (20101102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Anthony, For once I agree with you! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:18 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant. Anthony --- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM Ed, My comments are embedded below: [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not an experience, it is an illusion. o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion. o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? [Bill!] An illusion. [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these have a spiritual significance. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5586 (20101102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5589 (20101103) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Related phrases: work experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:work+experiencedefl=ensa=\ Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAQQowMoAAexperience rating http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:experience+ratingdefl=ens\ a=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAUQowMoAQuser experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:user+experiencedefl=ensa=\ Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAYQowMoAgout of body experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:out+of+body+experiencedefl\ =ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAcQowMoAwoutofbody experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:outofbody+experiencedefl=e\ nsa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAgQowMoBAnear death experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:near+death+experiencedefl=\ ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAkQowMoBQneardeath experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:neardeath+experiencedefl=e\ nsa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAoQowMoBgexperience points http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:experience+pointsdefl=ens\ a=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAsQowMoBwjimi hendrix experience http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:jimi+hendrix+experiencedef\ l=ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAwQowMoCA Definitions of experience on the Web: * go or live through; We had many trials to go through; he saw action in Viet Nam * know: have firsthand knowledge of states, situations, emotions, or sensations; I know the feeling!; have you ever known hunger?; I have lived a kind of hell when I was a drug addict; The holocaust survivors have lived a nightmare; I lived through two divorces * go through (mental or physical states or experiences); get an idea; experience vertigo; get nauseous; receive injuries; have a feeling * the accumulation of knowledge or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities; a man of experience; experience is the best teacher * feel: undergo an emotional sensation or be in a particular state of mind; She felt resentful; He felt regret * have: undergo; The stocks had a fast run-up * an event as apprehended; a surprising experience; that painful experience certainly got our attention wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\ 3Fs%3Dexperiencesa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CBYQpAMoAAusg=AFQj\ CNFSg0kV5pL_-F2as_Jr-2x4230giw * Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience aligns it closely with the concept of experiment. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiencesa=\ Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CBcQpAMoAQusg=AFQjCNF6uh8qq2GG8pWzTL9i\ sh-R6MW1hQ Bill wrote: [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not based on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience. Bill, Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, [Bill! from an earlier post] Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING. It will save you, your friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings. [Ed} That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory conceptions, feelings and experiences.) [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not based on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience. ...Bill!
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, My comments are embedded below: [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view to clarify its meaning: Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences? o A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience? [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not an experience, it is an illusion. o Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam? [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion. o A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam? [Bill!] An illusion. [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these have a spiritual significance. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5586 (20101102) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED; I understand. Sitting down by oneself requires to have a very strong will. It doesn't come easy to me either. In fact still need from my sangha once a week sitting down with them in order to keep daily discipline. I take my hat to everyone here in the forum who can do this by themselves alone. It's not a good idea to sit down having an expectation of some kind as for instance the one you are pointing out: realising Buddha Nature. There is no realisation of Buddha Nature. That is a notion. There is interconnection, a sense of non separation with the rest of life. If I would be having a purpose when I sit down, the flow of the present moment would be completely loose. It's in that flow that many miracles occur. I'm afraid not be very good to explain. This is why I encourage you to try yourself. Amongst many benefits there is the one of enhancement of the health and well being not just in me but also my surroundings. Mind that this is just my personal experience and not necessarily anybody else experience. Mayka --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 0:06 Mayka, Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha Nature. Why do you do zazen? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Why don't you do zazen? Mayka Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, We are flogging a dead horse. From *my* perspective there is no difference between what you (and Bill and others) say, and what I say. The difference is one of deep orientation: You and Bill and others are (unconsciously) steeped in the fixated and contentious Western Judeo-Christian mind-sets of right/wrong and 'only one way'. I used to be like that too four decades ago, but without any effort on my part, this rigid mind-set began to fall away, thanks to my exposure to Buddhism, Zen, Eastern perspectives and other thing, and I have little difficulty reconciling seemingly conflicting positions. Since we do not seem to be able to communicate, I may limit my comments and responses - provided I possess the will power to do so. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; I understand. Sitting down by oneself requires to have a very strong will. It doesn't come easy to me either. In fact still need from my sangha once a week sitting down with them in order to keep daily discipline. I take my hat to everyone here in the forum who can do this by themselves alone. It's not a good idea to sit down having an expectation of some kind as for instance the one you are pointing out: realising Buddha Nature. There is no realisation of Buddha Nature. That is a notion. There is interconnection, a sense of non separation with the rest of life. If I would be having a purpose when I sit down, the flow of the present moment would be completely loose. It's in that flow that many miracles occur. I'm afraid not be very good to explain. This is why I encourage you to try yourself. Amongst many benefits there is the one of enhancement of the health and well being not just in me but also my surroundings. Mind that this is just my personal experience and not necessarily anybody else experience.Mayka Mayka, Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha Nature. Why do you do zazen? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Why don't you do zazen? Mayka Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, I regard everything you, I, Mayka, I and others say as 'illusory', but one has to do *something* to pass the time of day before the grim reaper arrives. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, those feelings you got reading books on Buddhism are only illusions. You'll eventually need to drop the attachments you have to these. Bill!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory conceptions, feelings and experiences.) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING. It will save your friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings. Bill!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Do you sit at all? If yes, do you sit alone or with a group? On the average, for how many hours per day do you sit? Does your sitting help you control your emotionality? Does it assist you in developing humility, or cultivating a sensitivity to others' feelings? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Your intelectual sounds pretty thirsty and hungry. Could it be a cause for you to feel so frustated? . Point of sitting down: to stop the mental bzzz!!! Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?. Mayka --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 14:07 Mayka, Do you sit at all? If yes, do you sit alone or with a group? On the average, for how many hours per day do you sit? Does your sitting help you control your emotionality? Does it assist you in developing humility, or cultivating a sensitivity to others' feelings? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Your intelectual sounds pretty thirsty and hungry. Could it be a cause for you to feel so frustated? . Point of sitting down: to stop the mental bzzz!!! Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, The 'experience' of answering the questions will be be your reward. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
He he...Good try!. But not. --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 16:10 Mayka, The 'experience' of answering the questions will be be your reward. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?. Mayka
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, I got them on the website. Anthony --- On Mon, 1/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 11:15 AM Anthony, I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you. How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do you go to the website? I’ll look into it. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill, This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for that? Anthony --- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, [Bill! from an earlier post] Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING. It will save you, your friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings. [Ed} That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory conceptions, feelings and experiences.) [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not based on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Anthony, I also got some duplicates via email If you see another one let me know immediately. Thanks…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 5:46 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill, I got them on the website. Anthony --- On Mon, 1/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 11:15 AM Anthony, I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you. How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do you go to the website? I’ll look into it. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill, This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for that? Anthony --- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
[Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post. Perhaps that was a badword. What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the onlything you have. When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape,you have that experience. When you read someone's else's account of tastinga grape, you experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do notexperience tasting a grape. Both the experience of tasting a grape and theexperience of reading about tasting a grape have equal value in and ofthemselves I felt weird reading the word 'value', this explains it, clearly. siska -Original Message- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:01:17 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed} When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinic [sic] wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. If that's so, then I disagree with you - at least that's not why I read. I read to gain knowledge. I read the same reason I am on this forum and why I discuss things with other people. I want to hear about their experience, what they think and what they believe. This does not 'awaken' my Buddha Mind. In fact if anything these intellectual activities might serve to further obscure it. That would happen if I started forming attachments to what I'm reading or have read. To manifest Buddha Mind I only have to DO nothing, I just have to BE. [Ed] One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with them, no? [Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post. Perhaps that was a bad word. What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the only thing you have. When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape, you have that experience. When you read someone's else's account of tasting a grape, you experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do not experience tasting a grape. Both the experience of tasting a grape and the experience of reading about tasting a grape have equal value in and of themselves. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. Bill, And, what is the signifance of this (personally-experienced) difference? There is absolutely the experience of reading. That's yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That's the goal of good writing, to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don'tknow swimming. Read 'know' in the prior sentence as 'experience'. Experience is what's important, not just 'knowing'. One's experience is important to whom and why? Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. And what does one conclude from that? Experience is living. Is that the way it 'should' be for everyone - or do they have a choice? Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece, in my opinion. OK, it's a subjective personal truth. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. ...Bill! Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to themselves? So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else? --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 31, 2010, at 7:42, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to themselves? I certainly do not seem to; sometimes I know what is important to me, sometimes even that is mysterious. I have had very poor results to directly shift the priorities of my living. Fortunately, what i think/feel is important is not that important. What I do is what is important to me, and I have much more luck, say picking up a piece of paper on the floor and tossing it in the recycle bin than I do have in becoming a person that finds cleanliness important. Too many arguments with various thoughts and remembered emotions there, but i can pick up one item. So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else? Well, we are all one.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed] When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. [ED] No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be. I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten. Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys' books on the Buddha's Teachings. That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to themselves? I certainly do not seem to; sometimes I know what is important to me, sometimes even that is mysterious. I have had very poor results to directly shift the priorities of my living. Fortunately, what i think/feel is important is not that important. What I do is what is important to me, and I have much more luck, say picking up a piece of paper on the floor and tossing it in the recycle bin than I do have in becoming a person that finds cleanliness important. Too many arguments with various thoughts and remembered emotions there, but i can pick up one item. In any intant it is impossible to tell for certain whether a person is acting from his own free will, what his motivations are, or what unconscious fixations, compulsions and programs are driving him. Nevertheless, in our society today, we tend to grant people the autonomy to do their own thing and arrive at their own insights in the fullness of time. So, what if they are 'attached'?What business is that of anyone else? Well, we are all one. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane We are all one what? The Buddha did say: Work out your own salvation with diligence. Thanks, ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes expressed humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good intentions. Mayka: What kind of brutal truthfulness are you refering to?. Sincerely don't know what are you talking about. --- On Sat, 30/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 16:39 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Thanks ED. I appreciate your kind words and understanding. Mayka, thanks to you too; I feel happy too now that we are attempting to communicate with each other. Your tolerance says a lot of good about you. The explanation maybe a lot simpler than 'tolerance': It may be more like 'indifference', as generally speaking, with men at least, the entire emotional/endocrine system tends to wind down and mellow with age. However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from temperamental tantrums specially when real communication shades away. It's fair that you know this about me so that you don't get by surprise and in nappies! Mayka Don't worry, Mayka, just the be way you are: Your spontaneity, fullness of feeling and truthfulness bring life to this forum. Thanks, ED PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes expressed humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good intentions. Bill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I see a person merely expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like.Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka --- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 19:32 Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka --- On Sat, 30/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 16:01 Mayka said: You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations appearing in the body and in the mind. Mayka, How can a person ever be certain that he/she is not possessed by an attachment or an aversion? Would not others, and epecially one's own guide (zen, spiritual or pychological) be more reliable judges of one's state of evolution? Thank you, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote: Hi Siska: My experience of sitting down varies from day to day, different periods of my life, of the yearThe only think that is alike is having the awareness of the in and out breathing as the anchor that unites my body and mind as one. It's also alike the acknowledgement of all senses working at high speed. You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations appearing in the body and in the mind. Thanks for your sharing. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED: What's Buddha mind?. What do you mean by buddha mind are for my own pleasure?. Is it a new dharma am not aware of from the complementary lote different strokes for different folks?. Mayka --- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 20:18 Mayka, So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: What's Buddha mind?. What do you mean by buddha mind are for my own pleasure?. Is it a new dharma am not aware of from the complementary lote different strokes for different folks?. Mayka Mayka, So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure? --EDED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones,Ã or to humanity in general? --ED ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for that? Anthony --- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
ED, Your highlighted words have awakened my non-wisdom mind. Do you mean you already knew Buddhism and zen before reading Christmas Humphrey and Alan Watts. Only you forgot them, but were again reminded by the two authors. You are a prophet. Anthony --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 12:23 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed] When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. [ED] No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be. I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten. Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys' books on the Buddha's Teachings. That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka/ED, I know the value. A local pear costs you a yuan (15c). But one from Spain will have to be paid for, after the high counter-veiling duty, with $2. Anthony --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 3:40 AM ED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka --- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 19:32 Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
yess. --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 4:18 AM Mayka, So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering peaches from Spain. I didn't waste time asking him the value of the peaches. I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious fruits. Mayka Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha Nature. Why do you do zazen? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Why don't you do zazen? Mayka Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Anthony, No. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, Your highlighted words have awakened my non-wisdom mind. Do you mean you already knew Buddhism and zen before reading Christmas Humphrey and Alan Watts. Only you forgot them, but were again reminded by the two authors. You are a prophet. Anthony --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, BillSmart@ wrote: Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed] When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. [ED] No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be. I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten. Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys' books on the Buddha's Teachings. That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Responses below. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 31, 2010, at 9:47, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: Nevertheless, in our society today, we tend to grant people the autonomy to do their own thing and arrive at their own insights in the fullness of time. So you are saying we should grant people their autonomy, that seems fine. Your original statement I took as to be saying we should let people choose their own priorities, which i find To be difficult as priorities are not really knobs to be tuned so much as emergent phenomena. Honestly, in my experience one big factor in what the people around me work on is what I work on. When I work on listening intently to people, I find the world much more focused on hearing what I have to say. And when I work on trying to have people see the benefits of sitting, then I create a little anti-Zen backlash in the people around me. So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else? Well, we are all one. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane We are all one what? Excellent koan! The Buddha did say: Work out your own salvation with diligence. We are, pretty much.
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING. It will save your friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings. Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 2:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Mayka, Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or to humanity in general? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED: Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here. No much point to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it look like. Mayka __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5580 (20101031) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5580 (20101031) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, My answers are embedded below: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. And, what is the signifance of this (personally-experienced) difference? [Bill!] I already addressed this in a follow-on companion post. There is only personal experience. What other kind could there be? There is absolutely the experience of reading. That's yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That's the goal of good writing, to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don'tknow swimming. Read 'know' in the prior sentence as 'experience'. Experience is what's important, not just 'knowing'. One's experience is important to whom and why? [Bill!] Maybe important gives the wrong impression. How about Experiences are real. Knowing is illusory.? You can decide for yourself whether know the difference is important. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. And what does one conclude from that? [Bill!] One concludes that knowing is illusory. Experience is living. Is that the way it 'should' be for everyone - or do they have a choice? [Bill!] That is the way it is for me. Others have a choice to recognize this or deny it. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece, in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. OK, it's a subjective personal truth. [Bill!] Yes, an observation based on personal experience. Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to themselves? [Bill!] Yes, of course. People can think its important to cut themselves or torture animals. Its their choice. So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else? [Bill!] It isnt specifically anyone elses business, unless of course they are asking you for advise or their attachments infringe on the life of others like if theyre attached to the concept of God or Allah and persecute people who dont share their attachment. Helping the former and resolving issues with the latter may include trying to help them become aware of their attachments. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5580 (20101031) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, In my opinion, and its only my opinion, those feelings you got reading books on Buddhism are only illusions. You'll eventually need to drop the attachments you have to these. Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 11:23 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed] When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. [ED] No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be. I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten. Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys' books on the Buddha's Teachings. That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5580 (20101031) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5580 (20101031) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Anthony, I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you. How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do you go to the website? I’ll look into it. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill, This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for that? Anthony --- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Thanks ED. I appreciate your kind words and understanding. Your tolerance says a lot of good about you. However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from temperamental tantrums specially when real communication shades away. It's fair that you know this about me so that you don't get by surprise and in nappies!. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 15:10 Mill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you.
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill; I apologise. I over-reacted and missed out the joke! Mayka --- On Sat, 30/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 3:32 Mayka, Yes, all of this is on a public forum. I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can have a go and participate. Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike. Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12 Mayka, My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me. If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says. All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed about it. ...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5573 (20101028
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
JMJM; There is a way of relenting the form of the words making them come out as a manifestation of Buddha, Jesus, god, Ala, Krishna, universal energy of the heart... and that is the one of, breathing we are online!. I've been having under observation myself reactions while posting to the web. I have noticed that when posting gets massive and try to read and answer them all... I start to lost all sense of synchronisation with the universe. After the second post or the third or the fourththe active mind replaces the universal energy for mental activity. I have also noticed that as soon as that is brought to the awareness plane, I stop all activity and take a break to breath in awareness for as long as it takes to restore back the energy of the practise. Afterewards I'm OK again. This simple way is beneficial alone the taming of the ego. Taking care of it. As a result the outcome brings benefit to everyone. It's a continuous taming of the ego. Thanks for the opportunity of sharing. Mayka --- On Sat, 30/10/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 0:45 Indeed, ED. The label for these conditions is Delusion. As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into form, which is emptiness. So are every word posted and discussed here, including every alphabet that I am typing at the moment Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi All, In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells us where to go or what to do. Some teachers are like a mirror, it reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up. Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits. It all depends on the I' at that moment in life. This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions. That's life. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote: On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal given in the game of life. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska -Original Message- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially in the beginning, I found it really interesting
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka said: You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations appearing in the body and in the mind. Mayka, How can a person ever be certain that he/she is not possessed by an attachment or an aversion? Would not others, and epecially one's own guide (zen, spiritual or pychological) be more reliable judges of one's state of evolution? Thank you, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote: Hi Siska: My experience of sitting down varies from day to day, different periods of my life, of the yearThe only think that is alike is having the awareness of the in and out breathing as the anchor that unites my body and mind as one. It's also alike the acknowledgement of all senses working at high speed. You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations appearing in the body and in the mind. Thanks for your sharing. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote: You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. Bill, When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no? I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with them, no? --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Thanks ED. I appreciate your kind words and understanding. Mayka, thanks to you too; I feel happy too now that we are attempting to communicate with each other. Your tolerance says a lot of good about you. The explanation maybe a lot simpler than 'tolerance': It may be more like 'indifference', as generally speaking, with men at least, the entire emotional/endocrine system tends to wind down and mellow with age. However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from temperamental tantrums specially when real communication shades away. It's fair that you know this about me so that you don't get by surprise and in nappies! Mayka Don't worry, Mayka, just the be way you are: Your spontaneity, fullness of feeling and truthfulness bring life to this forum. Thanks, ED PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes expressed humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good intentions. Bill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I see a person merely expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --Mayka
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Dear Mayka, Indeed. When we reach a level, where we could be able to differentiate our mental construct from true heart, our intentions could be directly touching the heart of others. Otherwise, we could be just indulging our ego in the reincarnation of the relativities of logic and words. Nonetheless, we still need to remind ourselves that all words, from everyone including Buddha, are emptiness by nature. The key word is by nature. Thank you for your sharing. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 10/30/2010 4:58 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: /JMJM;/ / / /There is a way of relenting the form of the words making them come out as a manifestation of Buddha, Jesus, god, Ala, Krishna, universal energy of the heart... and that is the one of, breathing we are online!./ / / /I've been having under observation myself reactions while posting to the web. I have noticed that when posting gets massive and try to read and answer them all... I start to lost all sense of synchronisation with the universe. After the second post or the third or the fourththe active mind replaces the universal energy for mental activity. I have also noticed that as soon as that is brought to the awareness plane, I stop all activity and take a break to breath in awareness / /for as long as it takes to restore back the energy of the practise. Afterewards I'm OK again.This simple way is beneficial alone the taming of the ego. Taking care of it. As a result the outcome brings benefit to everyone.It's a continuous taming of the ego. / // /Thanks for the opportunity of sharing./ /Mayka/ --- On *Sat, 30/10/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 0:45 Indeed, ED. The label for these conditions is Delusion. As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into form, which is emptiness. So are every word posted and discussed here, including every alphabet that I am typing at the moment Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi All, In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells us where to go or what to do. Some teachers are like a mirror, it reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up. Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits. It all depends on the I' at that moment in life. This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions. That's life. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote: On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal given in the game of life. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
When I read a lot of Zen Enlightenment stuff, I find my sitting is then filled up with what i label Zen thoughts - thoughts that attempt to portray themselves as wisdom or as good Zen experiences. I personally find those to be even more obscuring than the non-Zen thoughts about various imagined harms that others have prepared for me, so I generally take their appearance to be a signal to read less and sit more. I haven't ever tried a month of no reading (tho I am scrupulous to not bring books on a sesshin), and in fact the enlightenment story in the Three Pillars of Zen where this (childless) couple went on a word fast leaves a continuing sense of horror in me. In the midst of confusion and chaos, that's it for me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:14, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote: You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. Bill, When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no? I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with them, no? --ED
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska _ From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, My responses are embedded below: [Ed} When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no? [Bill!] I assume by 'intrinic [sic] wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 'Original Mind'. If that's so, then I disagree with you - at least that's not why I read. I read to gain knowledge. I read the same reason I am on this forum and why I discuss things with other people. I want to hear about their experience, what they think and what they believe. This does not 'awaken' my Buddha Mind. In fact if anything these intellectual activities might serve to further obscure it. That would happen if I started forming attachments to what I'm reading or have read. To manifest Buddha Mind I only have to DO nothing, I just have to BE. [Ed] One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with them, no? [Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post. Perhaps that was a bad word. What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the only thing you have. When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape, you have that experience. When you read someone's else's account of tasting a grape, you experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do not experience tasting a grape. Both the experience of tasting a grape and the experience of reading about tasting a grape have equal value in and of themselves. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska _ From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with you that thoughts about zen can be the most bothersome. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ChrisAustinLane Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 12:55 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question When I read a lot of Zen Enlightenment stuff, I find my sitting is then filled up with what i label Zen thoughts - thoughts that attempt to portray themselves as wisdom or as good Zen experiences. I personally find those to be even more obscuring than the non-Zen thoughts about various imagined harms that others have prepared for me, so I generally take their appearance to be a signal to read less and sit more. I haven't ever tried a month of no reading (tho I am scrupulous to not bring books on a sesshin), and in fact the enlightenment story in the Three Pillars of Zen where this (childless) couple went on a word fast leaves a continuing sense of horror in me. In the midst of confusion and chaos, that's it for me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:14, ED seacrofter...@! yahoo.com mailto:seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote: You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. Bill, When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no? I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with them, no? --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska _ From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and only reading about it. There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior sentence as ‘experience’. Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Hi Bill, I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's In essence, aren't they the same? siska _ From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are being described differently due to this different backgrounds. To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings. which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do the job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to uncover all the layers there Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen. Nice talking to you Feeling's mutual :-) siska --- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 21:12 Siska: Reading books is educative. Nothing wrong about reading. A different matter is how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind of ultimate truth and things like that. For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of that kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to the real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react as very offended. So the reading in this case was useless as it added more new notions into that person mind. Everything in life is there available to all of us, it depends upon us how do we use it. That is our choice. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the subject you mention : The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment?. This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings. which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5573 (20101028) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5573 (20101028) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi Mayka, This is the first zen forum I ever joined, but I've been in other groups (which is not zen) and saw these people there. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness? I think it'd be easier to describe with example. During sitting, sometimes we feel pain. As I am being aware of the pain, I don't see it as the body which is in pain or the mind which is 'feeling' the pain. I was then being aware of the physical sensations and the mind's reactions towards the sensations. It does not make sense to separate the two, or there would not be this thing called pain. And when there is 'no mind' or no reaction towards the physical sensations, then I don't know what to call it. Something like it. How is it in zazen? How do you be aware in your sitting? siska -Original Message- From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:42:38 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are being described differently due to this different backgrounds. To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings. which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me. If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says. All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed about it. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5573 (20101028) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, In a previous post you wrote: [Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are being described differently due to this different backgrounds. To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings. which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Yes, sometimes
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill: Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can have a go and participate. Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike. Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12 Mayka, My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me. If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says. All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed about it. ...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5573 (20101028) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen. At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Zen is all about face to face teaching. The writing is just entertainment. Without the practice in non-dual action, the words tend to hide the simple truth. I am not talking about the sort of satori experience Bill, but sitting with no goal is non-dual action. Repeat it and eventually even one as obtuse as myself notices that non-dual action is commonplace, the very scaffold of living. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal given in the game of life. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi JMJM, Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi All, In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells us where to go or what to do. Some teachers are like a mirror, it reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up. Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits. It all depends on the I' at that moment in life. This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions. That's life. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote: On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal given in the game of life. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=8uo-ET8lo1HhwhEMgq7nYgt6uMd-zAe0x9R1jUVCSH\ hEug1t9U4O9vA9JNhBbiuR5dhuao3pbrhrWwlCbXcK3dk16I68Aw , ChrisAustinLane ch...@... /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=J0gJum0sFWXwFqvFb4w2TwiNhr4goXM2sOUPdAqG-b\ FE8XW5oBbn7HQYaKqrFVLczIXCfQ wrote: At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 29, 2010, at 14:34, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself. In acting, one is not fooling one's self. In thinking, one cannot be sure. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Indeed, ED. The label for these conditions is Delusion. As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into form, which is emptiness. So are every word posted and discussed here, including every alphabet that I am typing at the moment Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi All, In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells us where to go or what to do. Some teachers are like a mirror, it reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up. Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits. It all depends on the I' at that moment in life. This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions. That's life. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote: On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal given in the game of life. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=8uo-ET8lo1HhwhEMgq7nYgt6uMd-zAe0x9R1jUVCSHhEug1t9U4O9vA9JNhBbiuR5dhuao3pbrhrWwlCbXcK3dk16I68Aw, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, Don't worry about the snake's legs, worry about the snake's powerful body.Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:14 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, Don't worry about the snake's legs, worry about the snake's fangs.Mill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:11 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Mill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com image001.gifimage002.gif
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Yes, all of this is on a public forum. I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can have a go and participate. Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike. Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12 Mayka, My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me. If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says. All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed about it. ...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com http://de.mc862
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, Yes, all of this is on a public forum. I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can have a go and participate. Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike. Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12 Mayka, My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me. If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says. All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed about it. ...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Bill: Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels release. I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all that is irrelevant. Mayka --- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08 See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com http://de.mc862
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
I agree with Chris that a teacher, if not absolutely essential, is very highly desirable.Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ChrisAustinLane Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 12:12 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com wrote: Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen. At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not me. Zen is all about face to face teaching. The writing is just entertainment. Without the practice in non-dual action, the words tend to hide the simple truth. I am not talking about the sort of satori experience Bill, but sitting with no goal is non-dual action. Repeat it and eventually even one as obtuse as myself notices that non-dual action is commonplace, the very scaffold of living. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, What 'WHOOP-ASS'? I see no 'WHOOP ASS'. I see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do. Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand of me not to communicate with her. --ED PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and neither did I. See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote: Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you.
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mike, Would I be leaving the bar all in one piece? :-( --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! ED;Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring.Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment.I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go.Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska: Reading books is educative. Nothing wrong about reading. A different matter is how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind of ultimate truth and things like that. For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of that kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to the real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react as very offended. So the reading in this case was useless as it added more new notions into that person mind. Everything in life is there available to all of us, it depends upon us how do we use it. That is our choice. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the subject you mention : The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment?. This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings. which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do the job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to uncover all the layers there Nice talking to you Mayka -- On Thu, 28/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 5:49 Mayka, What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. Perhaps not a wise thing to do? I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as illusions). When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very similar to me. This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher needed in Zen either :-) thanks for this discussions! If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-) siska From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 +0100 (BST) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down? If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20 Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After all, what do I do
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't mean to harm you. --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local bars : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, If you want to get around Bill's block on my posts, let me know. At least I can refer you to those Chinese surfers who are expert in avoiding government's blockage. Anthony --- On Thu, 28/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 11:25 AM Siska, You are Buddha. If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to hungry dogs.' Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him. Anthony --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM Hi Ed, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! :-) I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you pronounce it? From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5566 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mike, I don't see the connection between the British Army and orgyhouse studies. Is it along the same line as my idea that gentlemen and sinners are synonyms? Anthony --- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 7:23 PM Anthony, You said something about learning together in an 'orgy-house'.. I'm ex-British Army, so I already hold an honourary Ph.D in 'Orgy-House Studies'. Mike
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05 Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi Ed, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! :-) I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you pronounce it? From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? siska -Original Message- From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to hungry dogs.' Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him. Anthony --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM Hi Ed, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! :-) I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you pronounce it? From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
My advice is that you should be careful in choosing your teacher. Test him first. Some Tantric teacher will ask you to jump from the top of a seven story building to try your loyalty. More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark that if you see him chasing a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty. Anthony --- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 1:01 AM Siska: I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down? If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20 Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-) siska From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05 Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hi Ed, By here, I meant Jakarta, Indonesia :-) There are zen groups here and zen retreats. But I've attended the teacher's talk and I don't feel he's quite 'there' yet. But then, as someone in this forum put it, that is just the way *I* experienced this teacher. I don't know. siska -Original Message- From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:36:54 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. Hi siska, by here do you mean the Zen Forum, the US, the West or this plane of existence? As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here.You appear to be eating your cake and having it too! ;-) After all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-)siska That's a great koan for us all. --ED Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Siska, You are Buddha. If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to hungry dogs.' Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him. Anthony --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM Hi Ed, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! :-) I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you pronounce it? From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5566 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Mayka, What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. Perhaps not a wise thing to do? I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as illusions). When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very similar to me. This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher needed in Zen either :-) thanks for this discussions! If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-) siska -Original Message- From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down? If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20 Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-) siska From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05 Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark that if you see him chasing a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty It's none of my business if he likes chasing a young girl, I don't care ;-) -Original Message- From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:21:05 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question My advice is that you should be careful in choosing your teacher. Test him first. Some Tantric teacher will ask you to jump from the top of a seven story building to try your loyalty. More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark that if you see him chasing a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty. Anthony --- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 1:01 AM Siska: I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down? If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20 Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-) siska From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05 Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
LOL! Thanks for the offer Bill, I can see you are a very good and responsible moderator. siska -Original Message- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:25:33 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, You are Buddha. If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska, The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to hungry dogs.' Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him. Anthony --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM Hi Ed, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! :-) I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you pronounce it? From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? siska From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) Hello siska, The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything - and even the worst! I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google: [define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara] I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-) --ED siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5566 (20101027)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5569 (20101027)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Ed, This is a good example of ‘a can of whoop-ass’! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 8:08 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5562 (20101025) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5564 (20101026) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÃ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Bill, That's an illusory red-neck perspective. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Ed, This is a good example of 'a can of whoop-ass! Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=xWZxIe_-uLCmWDoLxQEQ_vMs7bzcEvQwAYb2nfGs1N\ X57o27Mcir-Ks1vhXKL8fs9RX9NW9n2lW5eBiCFu8v [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=xWZxIe_-uLCmWDoLxQEQ_vMs7bzcEvQwAYb2nfGs1N\ X57o27Mcir-Ks1vhXKL8fs9RX9NW9n2lW5eBiCFu8v ] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@... /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=xuWnjILoFotWWQUcPpTyq_2mZUXqaIZTaWfOsPgsN7\ salWi7sKMheTzlHBCza4vlG1KIkYfkAiP5I4sK2ac wrote: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=xWZxIe_-uLCmWDoLxQEQ_vMs7bzcEvQwAYb2nfGs1N\ X57o27Mcir-Ks1vhXKL8fs9RX9NW9n2lW5eBiCFu8v , Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Anthony: Sinners are in minority. . The word sinner has been changed for unmindful and applies both genres. Before there was a private confession and now we confess in the Internet forums . And in some of them the moderators give even a zen, buddhist or whatever absolution!. The same doggy with a different collar. Mayka --- On Tue, 26/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 8:58 Mayka, Is it? I thougt sinners and gentlemen are synonyms. Anthony --- On Tue, 26/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 7:31 AM Anthony: He he...!. What a laugh, Senor being translated as a Sinner. This maybe because the N from word SENOR should have a wave line on the top which I can't have because my keyboard is British. Senor means : Sir, Mister. But in English translation with this sentence it may go better gentleman. so the sentence says: I'm under the impression that this gentleman suffers from depression Mayka --- On Tue, 26/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 0:11 Mayka, My translation is: I am under the impression that you sinner suffer from depression. Anthony --- On Tue, 26/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 7:05 AM Me da la impresion que este senor sufre de depresion. --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 0:01 Mayka, I am (to you) whatever you experience me to be in the moment - and vice versa. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Why the reading of your statement sounds in my ears as lacking of reality in you and as it was something in decay? Just wonder... Mayka Mayka, Fools learn through their own foolishness; wise women and men learn from the foolishnes of fools. --ED
RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
...And I don't even have a little remorse for it!. --- On Tue, 26/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 15:58 Ed, This is a good example of ‘a can of whoop-ass’! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 8:08 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!! --- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ED; Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. Are you speaking from experience? :-) I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment. I hear you. But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both better let it go. Mayka Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance. --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5562 (20101025) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5564 (20101026) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events.. siska -Original Message- From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!
