Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mark: The form of a human being is not separated from planet earth. You're right and everything is impermanent including planet earth with all its continuous flowing of Miltie-different forms life. Humans being are another form of life manifested out of conditions. There is the earth in human beings as there is the fire, water, air and consciousness. I was not giving human attributes to earth though you seemed to perceive in that way. When one touches the emptiness of the form then one sees things with the eyes of the non eyes, the ears of the non earsit's in that way that one sees the non separation from any form and non form. What you call natural disasters happened much before human beings were manifested on Earth I just call evolution, change, impermanence. But disasters caused as a reaction of our planet earth by human beings abused to nature are very far of being natural disasters. Expressing in a poetic way or with metaphors the suffering of the earth caused by human abuse is not giving to Mother Earth human attributes at all but an expression of empathy towards towards planet earth. There is this really good teaching from TNH about interbeing that advices us to see everything in the light of interbeing. I took a cut from one of my geraniums and planted in a small pot. I looked at the little pot everyday. The more the little cut started to grow bigger and bigger, the less soil was left in the pot. The soil become the geraniums!. Mayka --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 0:40 Mayka - Over the 4 billion or so years that planet Earth has existed, life has come and gone many times. This infinitesimal grain of sand we call home has been heated by volcanoes and dust, frozen over, slammed into by even smaller rocks, and poisoned with oxygen. Each event was traumatic, and lethal to much if what lived here at the time. Nature was here before all that and will be here after. Some billions of years ago, a star exploded, causing a nearby cloud of dust and gas to coalesce into the sun, planets, and other detritus of our solar system. Nature was here before all that, and will be after. Some 4 billion years from now, our sun will swell into a red giant star, killing everything on Earth; destroying all terrestrial evidence that home sapiens ever existed. Nature was here before all that, and will be after. Giving human attributes to Nature is a serious error. Humanity is impermanent. Life comes and goes. Stars ignite. Stars burn out. Nature goes on. Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. Nature just is. On Oct 22, 2010 1:31 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris Wrote: Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. Mayka: Indeed Chris. Thanks. --- On Sat, 23/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 2:52 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill, Bad example. A better one is to compare zazen to eating your flight lice. It involves going to a restaurant and spend your easily earned Thai Baht. In other words, it requires dualistic effort at least in the beginning. Before you enjoy the Kau Pad Gong. So you are saying that the goal of zen is to reach 'just this', instead of just eating and sleeping. Anthony --- On Sun, 24/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 24 October, 2010, 11:04 AM Anthony, When you breathe do you have a goal? Is it to oxygenate your blood? You just breathe, so just BE. Don’t over-think things. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:22 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is perfect just the way it is. This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen practice might have? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, Can you say a little more about this matter? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Zen practice has no goals. Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Anthony, Nice try, but no cigar. Zen has no goals…so I am not saying that the ...goal of zen is to reach ‘just this’ [sic], instead of just eating and sleeping. When you are eating, eating is Just THIS! When you are sleeping, sleeping is Just THIS! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 3:27 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, Bad example. A better one is to compare zazen to eating your flight lice. It involves going to a restaurant and spend your easily earned Thai Baht. In other words, it requires dualistic effort at least in the beginning. Before you enjoy the Kau Pad Gong. So you are saying that the goal of zen is to reach 'just this', instead of just eating and sleeping. Anthony --- On Sun, 24/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 24 October, 2010, 11:04 AM Anthony, When you breathe do you have a goal? Is it to oxygenate your blood? You just breathe, so just BE. Don’t over-think things. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:22 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is perfect just the way it is. This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen practice might have? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, Can you say a little more about this matter? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Zen practice has no goals. Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5560 (20101024) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people and nature (despite what people might naturally think). Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Chris - I think you've rebutted your own statement. The separation from Nature is illusion, maya, etc. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris, I’ll second that! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ChrisAustinLane Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:53 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people and nature (despite what people might naturally think). Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Chris - I think you've rebutted your own statement. The separation from Nature is illusion, maya, etc. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Individual Email | Traditional __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Ed, Im not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen practice. Its not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is perfect just the way it is. This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen practice might have? Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, Can you say a little more about this matter? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Zen practice has no goals. Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mark, Chris and Bill, I fail to understand what the issue really is. To me, reality is reality, nature is nature, and people are people. --ED Definitions of reality: * world: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you; his world was shattered; we live in different worlds; for them demons were as much a part of reality as trees were * the state of being actual or real; the reality of his situation slowly dawned on him * the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be; businessmen have to face harsh realities * the quality possessed by something that is real Definitions of nature: * the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized; it is the nature of fire to burn; the true nature of jealousy * a causal agent creating and controlling things in the universe; the laws of nature; nature has seen to it that men are stronger than women * the natural physical world including plants and animals and landscapes etc.; they tried to preserve nature as they found it * the complex of emotional and intellectual attributes that determine a person's characteristic actions and reactions; it is his nature to help others * a particular type of thing; problems of this type are very difficult to solve; he's interested in trains and things of that nature; matters of a personal nature Definitions of people: * (plural) any group of human beings (men or women or children) collectively; old people; there were at least 200 people in the audience * citizenry: the body of citizens of a state or country; the Spanish people * fill with people; Stalin wanted to people the empty steppes * members of a family line; his people have been farmers for generations; are your people still alive? * furnish with people; The plains are sparsely populated * multitude: the common people generally; separate the warriors from the mass; power to the people --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Chris, I'll second that! Bill! I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people and nature (despite what people might naturally think). Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Chris - I think you've rebutted your own statement. The separation from Nature is illusion, maya, etc. On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill, Your point is loud and clear. Everything occurs by chance. No rules. No laws. No physical laws either. Would you dare to jump off a cliff to defy gravity (excuse me for raising the taboo again). But I can come to your rescue. In zen, you are demanded strongly to jump into an abyss. So, just this. Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 10:53 AM Anthony, Nature has no goals. Evolution has no goals. Zen practice has no goals. Your questions are the same as the koan-like children’s ditty I paraphrased a couple days ago. I'll quote it here in full: “Tell me why the stars do shine, Tell me why the ivy twines, Tell me why the sky’s so blue, And I will tell you just why I love you. Because God made the stars to shine, Because God made the ivy twine, Because God made the sky's so blue, Because God made you, that's why I love you.” I read 'because God made..' to mean 'because that's the way it is', or Just THIS! No goals, no expectations, just the way it is, Just THIS! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:32 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of nothing existing? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM Mark said: Nature has no goals The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and survival of living entities. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Chris - My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult, painful, and traumatic. Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments, it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature is. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5554 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill, I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is perfect just the way it is. This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen practice might have? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill, Can you say a little more about this matter? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Zen practice has no goals. Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Ed, I'll respond only to my comment which was in support of one of Chris' comments (not all of them). His comment and my response was: [Chris] I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people and nature... [Bill!] I'll second that! I support Chris' statement because of two reasons - one logical and one alogical*: Logically nature and people are not two different things. People are a subset of nature, as is everything else. To separate people from nature is setting up a perspective that people are in competition with or worse yet are in opposition to nature. A perspective such as this (as is the perspective of many environmentalists and all conservationists) is not an effective approach to deal with environmental issues. Alogically* (from a zen perspective) it is just another dualistic concept. It separates the One into Many: nature/people, self/other, good/bad, up/down. ...Bill! *alogical: WITHOUT logic, not bound by logic, not able to be measured by logic [I made up this word]. Contrast with 'illogical' which means NOT logical or the OPPOSITE of logical, which is not the meaning I want to convey since NOT itself is a logical operator. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5558 (20101023) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale – gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5553 (20101021) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill; Yes definitely vigorous is a most appropriate word as the sounds in this way don't come out with the same sound as when awareness is not there having as a result a separation between breath, body and mind. It's in that separation that attachment, blockage of energy, hysteria takes place for there is nothing to cuddle and take care, letting be expressed out. Mayka --- On Fri, 22/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 9:31 Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale – gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5553 (20101021) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent? Mayka, Yelling is just what it is - yelling. But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or many. Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience my compulsion to yell - but remain quiet. OR: Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their zenist worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their strong aversion to yells? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? Bill! Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique. Bill! That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
You missed the point again. And by the way, nature screams when something harms it. Have you ever hear the earth screams yet ?The social morals and social behaviours created by society have nothing to do with nature. If one is by the sea no one gets annoyed or disturbed by someone trying to get into water. Mayka --- On Fri, 22/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 15:38 Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent? Mayka, Yelling is just what it is - yelling. But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or many. Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience my compulsion to yell - but remain quiet. OR: Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their zenist worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their strong aversion to yells? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? Bill! Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique. Bill! That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: You missed the point again. What point have I missed again? And by the way, nature screams when something harms it. Yes, nature has every reason to scream: Who trusted God was love indeed And love Creation's final law Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw With ravine, shriek'd against his creed. Have you ever heard the earth screams yet? Not as distinctly or frequently as a person of advanced spiritual evolution and profound compassion as yourself. The social morals and social behaviours created by society have nothing to do with nature. Mayka The *intrinsic forces that guide human behaviors are no different than the forces in nature. _ED
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, and a world-changing triumph. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale – gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5553 (20101021) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5553 (20101021) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris said: ... giving your all for something other than your self, ... Generally all human actions are directed toward the interests of self and groups we identify with. But you assert that child-birth with its blood, sweat and tears is an exception to the universal self-centered focus of humans (and animals and plants, etc.)? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, and a world-changing triumph. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris - My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult, painful, and traumatic. Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments, it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature is. On Oct 22, 2010 9:13 AM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, and a world-changing triumph. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mayka, I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale – gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:38, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: No! That is just adding mental activity on top of the impulse to yell. If you are unsure about the yelling, breath, wait, and see if the right action becomes more obvious. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris, The higlighted portion of my post below was not intended as a recommendation, but as a (sort-of) koan to contemplate. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote: Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:38, ED seacrofter...@... /group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pscQyGQKYgNYdW95QGPvvib_vPCqA4Bd9dv2UUBznu\ bSJ4DN_3bLYgT2Eg1rTHMrldgW3yWHzJ9kbbp3tJY wrote: Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: No! That is just adding mental activity on top of the impulse to yell. If you are unsure about the yelling, breath, wait, and see if the right action becomes more obvious. === --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter...@... wrote: Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent? Mayka, Yelling is just what it is - yelling. But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or many. Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience my compulsion to yell - but remain quiet. OR: Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their zenist worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their strong aversion to yells? --ED
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mark said: Nature has no goals The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and survival of living entities. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Chris - My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult, painful, and traumatic. Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments, it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature is.
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of nothing existing? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM Mark said: Nature has no goals The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and survival of living entities. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Chris - My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult, painful, and traumatic. Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments, it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature is.
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mayka - Over the 4 billion or so years that planet Earth has existed, life has come and gone many times. This infinitesimal grain of sand we call home has been heated by volcanoes and dust, frozen over, slammed into by even smaller rocks, and poisoned with oxygen. Each event was traumatic, and lethal to much if what lived here at the time. Nature was here before all that and will be here after. Some billions of years ago, a star exploded, causing a nearby cloud of dust and gas to coalesce into the sun, planets, and other detritus of our solar system. Nature was here before all that, and will be after. Some 4 billion years from now, our sun will swell into a red giant star, killing everything on Earth; destroying all terrestrial evidence that home sapiens ever existed. Nature was here before all that, and will be after. Giving human attributes to Nature is a serious error. Humanity is impermanent. Life comes and goes. Stars ignite. Stars burn out. Nature goes on. Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. Nature just is. On Oct 22, 2010 1:31 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 10:19, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not complain, since nature does not have have any attachments to how things should be. Nature neither accepts nor rejects what is. Nature just is. This division of things into nature and not-nature is something we clever humans do as a part of our natural thinking. The people around me do actually complain a certain amount, relatively naturally as far as I can tell. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Anthony, Nature has no goals. Evolution has no goals. Zen practice has no goals. Your questions are the same as the koan-like children’s ditty I paraphrased a couple days ago. I'll quote it here in full: “Tell me why the stars do shine, Tell me why the ivy twines, Tell me why the sky’s so blue, And I will tell you just why I love you. Because God made the stars to shine, Because God made the ivy twine, Because God made the sky's so blue, Because God made you, that's why I love you.” I read 'because God made..' to mean 'because that's the way it is', or Just THIS! No goals, no expectations, just the way it is, Just THIS! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:32 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of nothing existing? Anthony --- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM Mark said: Nature has no goals The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and survival of living entities. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote: Chris - My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult, painful, and traumatic. Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments, it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature is. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5554 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5556 (20101022) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Chris - I think you've rebutted your own statement. The separation from Nature is illusion, maya, etc. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.netwrote: Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote: Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care. People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers. And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill, Can you say a little more about this matter? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Zen practice has no goals. Bill!
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to ponder on for the day :) And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away from their context (sort of thing). Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 4:36 PM Rose: Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the experience that is in front of you. Means to have an open mind. Means that one is not a narrow mind. It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one. Nothing new can be learnt. New experiences in that way are not welcome. It doesn't seem to me that that is your case. You actually seem to be quite an open mind person. If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting . One could also do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting. But it will be one and no one else who has to see into that. Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting. To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience of the practice. I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article backs up continusly himself/herself with the use of science, pompous names, professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his readers to whatever he wants to convert them. This is called religious manipulation. Have I answer what you were asking?. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51 Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an unattainable one. Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill: Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent inhale – gasping for breath. This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5549 (20101020) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Bill: You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated. Good point. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:45 Rose, My understanding is the same as Mayka’s. Being non-reactive does not mean being passive. Popular terms that are similar are ‘go with the flow’ or ‘follow the Tao’. I personally think non-reactive is actually not a good descriptive term. You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:36 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Rose: Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the experience that is in front of you. Means to have an open mind. Means that one is not a narrow mind. It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one. Nothing new can be learnt. New experiences in that way are not welcome. It doesn't seem to me that that is your case. You actually seem to be quite an open mind person. If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting . One could also do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting. But it will be one and no one else who has to see into that. Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting. To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience of the practice. I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article backs up continusly himself/herself with the use of science, pompous names, professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his readers to whatever he wants to convert them. This is called religious manipulation. Have I answer what you were asking?. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51 Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an unattainable one. Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010 By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Rose: That point made is actually incomplete as I should have said: When the mind is closed on its own ideas, preconceived concepts and so onNothing new can get into and nothing old can be let go out.In the same way that the of in and out breathing. We breathe in a new air get into our lungs and we breathe out and let the old breathe to get out. We don't hold onto the breath we breathe in and the one we let out. If we'll be holding wouldn't be possible to live. Or the waves of the sea they coming and going. They splash over the object they find on their way to the rocks, the sand and then retry back to be just water. And new waves come doing the same over and over. And all these is the natural rhythm of life. And so is with our mind when we let it be opened. You are going to hear lots and lots of talking about mindfulness. I did that myself in the past till I realised that I wasn't walking the talk. So stopped to talk too much about mindfulness. However, there are times in which I have to talk about it. Specially if I see someone giving an incorrect transmission of this teaching. This is my responsibility as I was given this specific direct teaching by TNH himself and for several times!!!. So when I had to talk about it I make very clear that I'm not always a mindful person etc. So in this way people don't feel too disappointed afterwards and still they can keep nourishing their mindfulness. The idea of practising mindfulness in a hospital is a good idea if the monastics from TNH were involved on it. And even like that I'm not sure if would work out because it takes years of practice to keep into that kind of continuos concentration of what is going in and out oneselves. Anyway, one of the very first things TNH kept warning us many years ago was never to try to convert to anyone and instead allow the person to approach by himself or herself the dharma. He used to make clear that doing differently would have make from this dharma another religion in which one is converted into and that this dharma wasn't a religion but a way of living. Real mindfulness doesn't need to sell itself to anyone, or make use of scientific propaganda or any other kind because when a person is mindful everyone can see, sense, touch it. If one wants to learn really well what is this mindfulness about then one has to go to the real source of this teaching and that is TNH and his monastics. Attending a retreat with them. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 10:26 Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to ponder on for the day :) And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away from their context (sort of thing). Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 4:36 PM Rose: Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the experience that is in front of you. Means to have an open mind. Means that one is not a narrow mind. It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one. Nothing new can be learnt. New experiences in that way are not welcome. It doesn't seem to me that that is your case. You actually seem to be quite an open mind person. If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting . One could also do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting. But it will be one and no one else who has to see into that. Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting. To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience of the practice. I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article backs up continusly himself/herself with the use of science, pompous names, professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his readers to whatever he wants to convert them. This is called religious manipulation. Have I answer what you were asking?. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
The reactive react so that the non-reactive may better exhibit their spontaneity. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated. Bill!
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Rose, The dualistic conception of open-mindedness/closed-mindedness is a meaningless, illusory/delusory fixation of our religio-cultural mind-set. For instance, is it the Supreme Ayatollah, the Pope or the Grand Rabbi of Yahoo groups who will infallibly pronounce on who is which (open-minded or closed-minded) on the Zen Forum? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote: Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to ponder on for the day :) And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away from their context (sort of thing). Rose
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Trying to grasp something ED? --- On Thu, 21/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 18:36 Rose, The dualistic conception of open-mindedness/closed-mindedness is a meaningless, illusory/delusory fixation of our religio-cultural mind-set. For instance, is it the Supreme Ayatollah, the Pope or the Grand Rabbi of Yahoo groups who will infallibly pronounce on who is which (open-minded or closed-minded) on the Zen Forum? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote: Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to ponder on for the day :) And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away from their context (sort of thing). Rose
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
ED and all: I'd like to share an experience. I've been having physiotherapy for a very severe case left frozen shoulder once a week with no interruptions since August 2009. My physiotherapist is brilliant. We work really well together because we do that as a non separation from the left shoulder. Slowly, slowly my left shoulder gains more and more movement. It's a hard work we both do in togetherness. As he can see that there is a very slow but very clear improvement each week I go to him, he feels a great encouragement to keep helping me. He has faith in me and I have faith in his method. However, my physiotherapist takes a holiday break from time to time. During that breaks he takes there is another physiotherapist who takes his place. The physiotherapist who takes his place it seems to be one of those who has received that hospital mindful training over hear somewhere but lacking of the real experience and therefore death already. and she kept telling to one to breathe as a kind of letany rosary chanting mantra she learnt. And of course that was leading her to a nonsense physiotherapy session with a descompased moviments of the body and the breath. I had to kindly ask her to stop and let me do the work of the breath in harmony with the moviments of the body by myself as I was already familiar with breathing . But she didn't seem to be very agreable with that. And finally had to cut her off by saying, I'm a zen buddhist practicioner and is unluckily you can show me how to breathe so please stop it or I'm going away. You're are harming my body.And she finally stopped. Just to name how risky is to bring mindfulness to hospitals. I rather have my weekly physiotherapist who is not into anything and does the work beautifully because he listens to my body while the other one didn't!. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 7:48 Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for me, significant. Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation. Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it is delivered. But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or ineffective? Not necessarily. Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one does in the world as spiritual practice. Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up with? Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why wait years, when simple instructions for distress
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practice Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for me, significant. Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation. Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it is delivered. But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or ineffective? Not necessarily. Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one does in the world as spiritual practice. Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up with? Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term practitioners. Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness skills can be learned and behaviors changed? Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not want to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice, or be trained to teach mindfulness meditation. Therefore, it may be more desirable and practical in clinical settings to deliver a CBT-like mindfulness skill set rather than teach meditation In light of all these benefits, what do we lose in clinical practice when we allow instruction of vipassana/mindfulness meditation to fall into disfavor or become outmoded? The following list is my best guess at an answer to this question: 1.The long and short term stress-reducing physical effects of meditation 2.The plethora of profoundly, positive neural changes evidenced in the brains of long term vipassana/Tibetan Buddhist meditators 3.The deep emotional healing that comes from metta/forgiveness/compassion meditation practices 4.The benefits of setting aside time in our busy lives for silence, meditation and contemplation
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for me, significant. Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation. Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it is delivered. But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or ineffective? Not necessarily. Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one does in the world as spiritual practice. Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up with? Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term practitioners. Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness skills can be learned and behaviors changed? Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not want to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an unattainable one. Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for me, significant. Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation. Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it is delivered. But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or ineffective? Not necessarily. Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one does in the world as spiritual practice. Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up with? Years
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
My teacher spoke of neither pushing away the moment nor grabbing onto the moment. Life flows through us peacefully. But many practitioners and neurologists emphasize that it is not not getting upset but recovering quickly and with awareness that is key. Irritants pop up from time to time. To leave them as just irritants and not have the whole body/mind get flooded with irritation is the pleasant state. Rocks are not reactive. That isn't so hard. To be aware and not reactive, that is our calling as humans. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:21, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practice Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010 By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for me, significant. Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation. Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it is delivered. But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or ineffective? Not necessarily. Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one does in the world as spiritual practice. Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up with? Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term practitioners. Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness skills can be learned and behaviors changed? Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not want to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice, or be trained to teach mindfulness meditation. Therefore, it may be more desirable and practical in clinical settings to deliver a CBT-like
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Rose: Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the experience that is in front of you. Means to have an open mind. Means that one is not a narrow mind. It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one. Nothing new can be learnt. New experiences in that way are not welcome. It doesn't seem to me that that is your case. You actually seem to be quite an open mind person. If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting . One could also do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting. But it will be one and no one else who has to see into that. Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting. To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience of the practice. I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article backs up continusly himself/herself with the use of science, pompous names, professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his readers to whatever he wants to convert them. This is called religious manipulation. Have I answer what you were asking?. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51 Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an unattainable one. Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010By 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of the presentation time
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Rose, All teachers and Eastern traditions, and now Western psychologists/pychotherapitsts are essentially saying the same things about meditation: o Two of the principal causes of human suffering are a strong desire and grasping for what we like and a strong aversion to, fear of, hate for, criticim of and emoting over what we don't like. o These two passions can roil, stress and debilitate the mind on an ongoing basis. o The objective of meditation is to deprogram the mind from this habitual, stressful push/pull activity. o Meditation addresses this problem in a mini-timeslice of formal meditation as follows: o In meditation, one's mind is regarded as the open, clear, sky. Thoughts, feelings, sensations, and perceptions are like clouds floating by in this clear blue sky. o One watches the clouds float by without comment, without judgment, without reactivity and without grasping at or pushing away. o (In meditation, one keeps a still body in order to minimize cloud formation.) o Gradually, after much practice, the frequency of cloud appearance will decline. o Eventually, one will have little difficulty entering the clear-sky state in meditation. o It is advisable not to engage in mind-disturbing activities when out of the formal meditation state as that would tend to dissipate the clear-sky state. o Eventually the open, clear-mind state, with minimal to no grasping/aversion will begin to extend itself to the between-formal-meditation periods. o Eventually one becomes the seamless buddha-mind of just here and now. o (And, behind the scenes, beyond one's awareness, all this effort is being recorded in neural changes.) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote: This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practice Rose
Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. Science is another human activity. I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time.
RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
Rose, My understanding is the same as Mayka’s. Being non-reactive does not mean being passive. Popular terms that are similar are ‘go with the flow’ or ‘follow the Tao’. I personally think non-reactive is actually not a good descriptive term. You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:36 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? Rose: Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the experience that is in front of you. Means to have an open mind. Means that one is not a narrow mind. It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one. Nothing new can be learnt. New experiences in that way are not welcome. It doesn't seem to me that that is your case. You actually seem to be quite an open mind person. If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting . One could also do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting.But it will be one and no one else who has to see into that. Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting. To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience of the practice. I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article backs up continusly himself/herself with the use of science, pompous names, professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his readers to whatever he wants to convert them. This is called religious manipulation. Have I answer what you were asking?. Mayka --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51 Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an unattainable one. Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM Empathy, care for a patient, altruism, love, compassion has always been in very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to all high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei and catholic church (or at least they were) . The real mystery here is once again in the heart. And no matter who embodies that heart. Nothing at all is possible without the heart. If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise Rose --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set October 7, 2010 By http://www.4u-2.com/author/admin/ 4u Articles As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. Interestingly
