RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
Anthony, We've had what you could call modern morality for at least 2,000 years. We've surely had some sense of morality much, much longer than that. What good has that done for us? How long are you willing to wait? How long are you willing to ask the African people to wait you talked about

[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread roloro1557
Hi Mike- --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your email. As always you write very eloquently. I haven't read that in Alan Watts, but I think he's absolutely correct. How many non-Buddhist Zen practitioners do you know who look really good on

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
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[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread roloro1557
Hi All- Just to let you know, I have had the same problem periodically. Margie (roloro1557) ---Bill wrote: P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark,

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
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Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Mayka (again!), Ah, interdependant co-origination! If you can understand this then you understand Buddhism (in a 'not knowing' kinda way!). And here we have the crux of the problem (as I see it) between Bill! and Edgar. Edgar, I imagine, would argue that we can follow the 'rules' of

RE: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
. . . The way to do is be. Lao Tzu OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Margie,   There is a flaw in the story. The Buddhist monk should read Jainist monk. Stepping on a frog unwittingly is not considered as breaking a buddhist precept, But in Jain, it does.   You see, Buddhism is more liberal.   Regards, Anthony --- On Wed, 15/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
. - - FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . The way to do is be. Lao Tzu OldWomansZenChronic les.blogspot. com __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com Get your preferred Email

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
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Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Hi Mike,   I am not yet convinced, and I don't think I can do it myself. So I need help. You cannot do everything on your own. Things second hand may be useful.   Regards, Anthony --- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen]

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread roloro1557
What can I say...I took a shot... Un-dead frogs and pissed-off eggplants - very zen! Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...but the next night he dreamed that hundreds of eggplants came to him demanding his life, and they were REALLY PISSED!

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Hi Bill, I have no essential disagreement with your statements below as you do seem to agree that you find it useful to follow the rules of causality when dealing with other people. Thus you do agree that those rules govern the realm of illusion, which of course is proven by your many

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Hi Bill,   It makes sense to start to alleviate my suffering by getting rid of my attachments. I will treat this seriously.   On the other hand, I am not going to join a political group. You must have noticed in the country you live, Chamlong is a leader of the opposition. I don't understand

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,   You are right that the 'modern morality' has not done much good. What should we do? Do we give it up completely? Or replace it with something else?   Regards, Anthony --- On Wed, 15/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE:

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Hi Mike,   I am waiting to be convinced that without morality we can still live in peace.   Regards, Anthony --- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date:

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Margie, Thanks for your email. As always you write very eloquently. I haven't read that in Alan Watts, but I think he's absolutely correct. How many non-Buddhist Zen practitioners do you know who look really good on paper, but if they get a toothache or are criticised their whole 'house of

RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization. I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Margie (and Bill), What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world (the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an eggplant but a squashed frog and kept changing every time he looked

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Bill!, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish in a bucket full of holes.. Mike. - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:23:45 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Bill, I don't think our causality discussion is OT at all. The true nature of things is exactly what Zen is about. Until we understand that there is no Zen. Zen is not about avoiding reality by sitting forever in zazen. Zen is about living day to day in the real world of things seen in

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Endymion
and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.. http://www.eset. com _ _ _ _ Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Haha! I wonder how many of us we would meet in a bar this evening? I'll put my hand up! Mike. - Original Message From: Mark Perew [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 17:52:12 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Anthony, I'm afraid you're going to have to convince yourself. Morality gleaned vicariously or from second-hand sources has no depth, no lasting power, is fickle and therefore not valid. As Buddha said, be your own guiding lamp. Mike. - Original Message From: Anthony Wu [EMAIL

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3523 (20081015) Information __ This message

[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread roloro1557
Hi Mike, My understanding is that zen is not a philosophy (intellect) nor a religion (psychology). It's something else, in a category by itself. As someone not unfamiliar with both philosophy and religion, I agree. I agree with you about intellectual head candy, and I think a little goes a long

[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
How will the fish get to market? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike and Mark, Zen without Buddhism is like a fish without a bicycle...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
Edgar, I have to admit, I was pulling for you on this one. Although I may not have grasped the full meaning of all of the posts, It seems to me the jist of it was full of zen. Especially zen buddhism where we acknowledge that we are here as a result of causality. Don't we? We may not

[Zen] Re: Dog Zen

2008-10-15 Thread Karin
Anthony Wu Peasants own dogs not as pets, but as working animals to guard the houses and herd sheep. Do you like to eat dogs and cats?? Are they tasty? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Karin
Anthony Wu There is a flaw in the story. The Buddhist monk should read Jainist monk. Stepping on a frog unwittingly is not considered as breaking a buddhist precept Get your story straight! You sound like a real faker! First you fake your satori, now you fake a story, what next? fake orgasms?

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
Edgar, Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I think you have really topped off your arguement. I have to say though, I was preparing a post very similar to this, you just beat me to the punch!

[Zen] Re: Dog Zen

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
Karin, What about you? Choke on any fur-balls lately? Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Karin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Wu Peasants own dogs not as pets, but as working animals to guard the houses and herd sheep. Do you like to eat dogs and cats?? Are they tasty?

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Hi Chris, I'm essentially in agreement with your post and thanks for letting us know you do find the discussion on topic. The world of phenomena is consistently causal - at least for sane people. But we do ultimately have to realize that that world is illusory in the sense that it is a

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Chris, Glad to hear we are of one mind! Best, Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 3:47 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I think you have really topped off your arguement. I have

Re: [Zen] Re: Dog Zen

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Absolutely not, Karin. Especially after I heard dogs in a cage howl sadly, when they knew they were being butchered one by one by a cruel man, so that his customers could enjoy the tasty dog meat. That happened in China, not infrequently in that country of the Six Patriarch Huineng.   Regards,

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Anthony. What can't you do by yourself? Mike. - Original Message From: Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:15:43 Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality Hi Mike, I am not yet convinced, and I don't think I

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Karin,   You call me a faker? Good. Or do you refer to Margie? No, Don't. I will assume full responsibility. I will defend Margie(no kidding). What is wrong in faking satori, or faking orgasm? Whether Margie's satori or orgasm is real or not, when you like it, it will be real one day. Like in

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Bill!, To be perfectly honest with you, I don't see the topic of causality to be off topic at all - just annoying because it's going to go around and around (and around) in circles ad infinitum. I think both you and Edgar are correct in what you say about the topic. The only difference is

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,   To put it in simple bloody English, I cannot convince myself that a world without morality is still as peaceful as we have law and order.   You can say a certain kind of morality is wrong. OK, what is your right morality? Make revolution and overthrow the old one and establish a new

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Edgar, When we first practice kata we're taught step by step: left arm block, followed by right hand strike, followed by right arm block etc.etc. When we master (we never truly do, of course) the kata, there is no distinction from the first move to the last - it's all one move. I think this

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember why he was going to the market anyway. Most probably does his shopping via the internet. Mike - Original Message From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Anthony, Ok, I'm waiting. When are you going to put it in simple bloody English? Mike - Original Message From: Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 7:59:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality Mike, To put it

Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Edgar, My comment is written below: What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world (the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an eggplant but a squashed frog and kept changing every

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
If that is not simple enough. Here we go:   I cannot do anything on my own. I need your help.   Regards Anthony --- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date:

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Mike, Nonsense! Are you a fish? Then why do my koi come over to me when I approach to feed them 24 hours later, or for that matter after an entire winter of no food. Don't underestimate the mind of a fish. Fish are sentient and have Buddha nature as do all beings, except apparently some

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Anthony, I'm not sure what I can help you with. You seem to be going through a period of soul-searching and asking yourself questions relating to morality, how to achieve world peace and various questions relating to religion. We all do. No-one else can piss for you and no-one else can give

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:24:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Edgar, Good to see you've finally come around to my way of thinking then :) Mike. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 9:21:41 Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality Hi Mike, That sounds like what I just said

Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread Edgar Owen
OK MIke, you've convinced me. You are a fish! You have fish nature and have achieved koi satori! :-) Edgar On Oct 15, 2008, at 8:41 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. - Original Message

Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Thank you , Mike.   Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 8:38 AM Hi Anthony, I'm not sure what I can

[Zen] TRIM YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!

2008-10-15 Thread Mac A. Roni
When you respond to emails/posts, please trim the part that you are NOT responding too, and just respond under the pertinent part that you are responding too. That makes it easier to follow what your responding to. It also makes it easier to read these posts when they are not a mile long and

[Zen] Zen Whore

2008-10-15 Thread Camila Diehl
I hope I am not too late to respond, YO SOY UNA GRANDE PUTA ZEN!!! I am a whore too!! I am still working, but now I see my friends on the nights when my husband is working overnights or is out of town. The extra money really helps, especially with this economy. It is not really prostitution,

Re: [Zen] Causality

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Edgar, I've been saying it since I began posting here.. 5 years ago! Mike - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 10:33:25 Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality Yes, but I said it before you did! :-) Edgar

[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
Hi Mike, Ohhh Nooo! Not the 'NET'! Now, what was I just thinking? Nevermind, hey this worm sure does look tasty. Worm on a string! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chris, Fish only have a 3 second memory so he probably wouldn't remember

RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
You can take the fish to the market. It's all up to you...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cid830 Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:51 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense

RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

2008-10-15 Thread BillSmart
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Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread mike brown
Hi Bill!, How long does it take the fish to go nowhere? Mike - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 13:53:58 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense

[Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness

2008-10-15 Thread cid830
Ha! ROFLOL ROFLOL ROFLOL! Aaaag, I did it again! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Edgar, They've probably come to check out the 'new guy' they think they've never seen before.. Current Book Discussion: