Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Bill, There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion are multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others impossible as they are artifacts of our existence in human form. I'm surprised that you accept anything as 'not illusion' based on past discussions, but if

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Anthony, I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life? I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time,

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Bill, The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009,

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Chris, I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:14 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, This is a very good point! Please forgive me for butting in, but... It was a samurai's duty to be prepared for the fight. I'm not sure of how many samurai's were

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling

[Zen] ZEN MEDITATION

2009-01-15 Thread atul_i_gandhi
dear sir, thanks for co operation Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu -  A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog That's not funny, that's sick. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
billsm...@... OUCH! What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 So, what were your Zen qualifications again? You read some books? You visited some temples? Reading zen books was always a great pleasure for me. There are lots of great zen books, the older ones seem to be the best, IMHO, though I have not been reading a lot of them in the past ten

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that causes Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms. I can relate to that, because

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Chris, But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:54 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions.

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Edgar Owen Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. That is kind of

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 I practiced zazen at the zen temples of New York City, Miami (now gone), Madrid, Paris, and Rome. In Paris, I had the great privilege to go there on several occasions at the temple of Taisen Deshimaru. ...it really looked like a very living (and positive) community. ...I cannot

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 accountability is important to me and I think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally subjective bullshit. To whom should we be accountable? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
You're funny! fitness4u2163 wrote: That is kind of limited. What happens when you get old and did not save any money your entire life? What is Buddha Nature going to tell you? Rob a bank? Pull a pension out of your ass?? Buddha Nature is over-rated and I think that Zen needs to grow up and

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,   I am satisfied with your answer regarding your possible reaction to violence. But not as concerns your statement that there is no rule in the world. I can give you some:   Rule No.1: there are Newton's laws and all other nonsense in physics for the material world.   Rule No.2: Bill

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Chris,   I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Al,   If you talk like that to a mahayana fan, he will be very upset. But it will be another thing, if you ask him to walk the talk.   Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To:

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Anthony, Was it mental suffering or physical pain? An important distinction is to be made. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: Chris, I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
? __ NOD32 3768 (20090115) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning'

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Edgar, First of all, I personally wouldn't use a samurai as an example of someone acting in accordance with Buddha Nature, but I know that is the idealized and romanticized mythos that is popular today. To answer your question: yes, a samurai (or anyone else) who prepares for a particular

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Edgar, I believe direct experiences are real. These include sensory sensations and emotions. I believe intellectualizing creates illusions. This includes concepts and all discrimination (dualism). As far as a brick dropping on my foot I believe: - I don't know whether the brick is real or an

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Physical pain was obvious. Whether mental was also present I don't know.   Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:22 AM

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Chris,   There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked

[Zen] ROLL CALL

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
If you are still alive, please reply to this post. Pursuant to the Yahoo terms of service it is time for spring cleaning of the membership and we have to delete the deceased members. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are

Re: [Zen] ROLL CALL

2009-01-15 Thread mescala283
I am alive and lurking Mike In a message dated 1/15/2009 11:13:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, fitness1...@yahoo.com writes: If you are still alive, please reply to this post. Pursuant to the Yahoo terms of service it is time for spring cleaning of the membership and we have

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Anthony, I respect your thoughts on this. As I said, I want to believe in karma. I do believe in the reincarnation of our life force. I think that many lives before me have brought me to this point, on the path to buddhahood. Perhaps to be experienced in this lifetime. I have done good to

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Hi Al, why do you say unfortunately? what do you have in mind? JM fitness4u2163 wrote: Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that causes Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system.

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 wrote: Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. Let's here it for generalizations! Denigrating other's beliefs and showing just how mis-guided they are makes me

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a