Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hello Margie, We can learn a lot from dogs. Our spouses and children don't come racing to the door to greet us when we get home. Dogs have unconditional love and they will forgive you and forget about all the negatives like accidently stepping on their tail. Dogs don't ever say good bye they just say hello with total devotion. I must admit I like dogs more then some people. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Chuck, Hahahaha! That was a good one. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Jody, Arf! wag, wag, wag! Edgar On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Jody W. Ianuzzi wrote: Hello Margie, We can learn a lot from dogs. Our spouses and children don't come racing to the door to greet us when we get home. Dogs have unconditional love and they will forgive you and forget about all the negatives like accidently stepping on their tail. Dogs don't ever say good bye they just say hello with total devotion. I must admit I like dogs more then some people. JODY
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hello Edgar, Is whoof, whoof whoof anything li,e moo, moo, mu? JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Bow Wow! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Morning Margie, Well that answers the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' What doesn't? :-) Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Mike- Yes :-) And perhaps animals don't need to be mindful in the same way that we do... Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, That's exactly how I see it too. I think you can no more get rid of desires/aversions than you can stop your kidneys producing urine :) I also think your quote addresses exactly what I stated about animals and zen. Mike. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi margie and all, I think my dog lives in the moment better then I do. she will sit and just be there without a past or a future, she just notices everything that is happening right now. JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
I also define moral as a code of conduct. It was that explained in a post to Jack Master. There must have been an linguistic error here from my side. And so I'll try again to explain it and be a little bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality is something moralistic. Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used can have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based in a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of real insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person who is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to others. In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic person is boring. But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the morality of others or society. A person with no moral values is a dangerous person. The Dalai Lama has his moral values. Gandhi had his moral values. Thich Nhat Hanh has his moral values. Martin Luther King Junior had his moral values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own moral values. A person without moral values is a person of not being trusted. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I define 'morals' as a code of conduct. This code can be very complex - as in Islamic Sharia Law or the Jewish Talmud; or can be fairly short as in the Old Testament's 10 Commandments or the Buddhist 5 Precepts; or can be very simple as in Jesus' teaching to 'Love one another'. More important to this discussion is whether morals are thought to be absolute or relative. Most religions (all?) believe the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore codes of conduct are ABSOLUTE. The code or list from which the 'correct' action can be derived should apply to ALL situations and most importantly to ALL people. What's right or wrong in all situations and for all people. This makes it easy to judge the conduct of both yourself and others. Since there are a lot of situations and a lot of people, most religion's codes of conduct are very complex. Zen's perspective on the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore the selection of a 'correct' action is RELATIVE. The 'correct' action depends the situation, and most importantly is determined by each individual for themselves. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right in a different situation. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right for someone else in the same situation. This makes it unnecessary to judge (after-the-fact) your own conduct since your actions were completely determined by the situation at the time of execution; and it is impossible (or at least useless) to try to judge the conduct of others. This also means that zen cannot ascribe to any formal code of conduct or morals. Hope this helps...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of roloro1557 Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:44 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Mayka- Morals are just a set of arbitrary rules imposed by society, culture, religion, etc. They are meaningless. They are empty concepts. And they differ hugely from culture to culture. This creates nothing but endless arguments about whose morals are right and whose are wrong. Real morality is just doing what you know is right, it really is that simple. Margie (roloro1557) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Mayaka, If, as you say, all these people have moral values then why is there so much suffering and strife in the world? I would say exactly because people have moral values, or rather, opposing moral values. For example, on issues such as abortion, drug use, age of consent, homosexuality etc who determines what is morally correct? Corrupt, rich, white, hypocritical, male politicians do. We need laws, but laws shouldn't reflect the moral values of only a very small group in society who also have vested interests. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 16:51:30 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen I also define moral as a code of conduct. It was that explained in a post to Jack Master. There must have been an linguistic error here from my side. And so I'll try again to explain it and be a little bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality is something moralistic. Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used can have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based in a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of real insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person who is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to others. In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic person is boring. But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the morality of others or society. A person with no moral values is a dangerous person. The Dalai Lama has his moral values. Gandhi had his moral values. Thich Nhat Hanh has his moral values. Martin Luther King Junior had his moral values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own moral values. A person without moral values is a person of not being trusted. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I define 'morals' as a code of conduct. This code can be very complex - as in Islamic Sharia Law or the Jewish Talmud; or can be fairly short as in the Old Testament's 10 Commandments or the Buddhist 5 Precepts; or can be very simple as in Jesus' teaching to 'Love one another'. More important to this discussion is whether morals are thought to be absolute or relative. Most religions (all?) believe the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore codes of conduct are ABSOLUTE. The code or list from which the 'correct' action can be derived should apply to ALL situations and most importantly to ALL people. What's right or wrong in all situations and for all people. This makes it easy to judge the conduct of both yourself and others. Since there are a lot of situations and a lot of people, most religion's codes of conduct are very complex. Zen's perspective on the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore the selection of a 'correct' action is RELATIVE. The 'correct' action depends the situation, and most importantly is determined by each individual for themselves. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right in a different situation. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right for someone else in the same situation. This makes it unnecessary to judge (after-the-fact) your own conduct since your actions were completely determined by the situation at the time of execution; and it is impossible (or at least useless) to try to judge the conduct of others. This also means that zen cannot ascribe to any formal code of conduct or morals. Hope this helps...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of roloro1557 Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Mayka- Morals are just a set of arbitrary rules imposed by society, culture, religion, etc. They are meaningless. They are empty concepts. And they differ hugely from culture to culture. This creates nothing but endless arguments about whose morals are right and whose are wrong. Real morality is just doing what you know is right, it really is that simple. Margie (roloro1557)
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Margie, I fully agree. But it is easier said than done. regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:27 AM Hello Anthony- I think you are hurting yourself unnecessarily with this line of thought Anthony. I'm sorry for that, I don't like to see people suffer. Again, a look into history will show you that there is NOTHING that can ensure peace. Lots and lots of things have been tried through the ages and peace has never come. It is very ironic, people are willing to go to war, to kill and be killed over whose morality is the right one. It's a hard pill to swallow, I know, but the plain truth is that peace isn't the nature of most human beings. Or most human beings cannot see their buddha-nature. The only thing left is to create a peaceful place within yourself. There are many ways to do that, zazen, other forms of meditation, certain therapies, etc. I don't think anyone can find peace in the world without finding it within themselves first. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you#39;ve always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Margie, I am poor at knowing other peoples experience. But Bill's words sounds like the zen literature I read--to be ruminated. I don't have to curry favor with him. I don't want to err on the wrong side either. To be on the safe side, I would say he is deeper the woman in the first stall in the fish market.. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 9:18 AM Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] . [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:Zen_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ yahoo. com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you#39;ve always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
hehehe!!! I didn't realice about the misspelling!. But it came a very funny word. Thanks for the correction Edgar! Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mayka, Mind dull ness? Don't you mean Mind full ness? Very funny misspelling Mr. Freud! Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:59 PM, Mayka wrote: The single word you're looking for is perhaps mindullness? Just wonder Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, BillSmart@ wrote: Anthony, I'll be happy to give you a single word that describes 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil': Mu! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ wrote: From: roloro1557 roloro1557@ Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony, I am as deep as a mirror...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:53 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Margie, I am poor at knowing other peoples experience. But Bill's words sounds like the zen literature I read--to be ruminated. I don't have to curry favor with him. I don't want to err on the wrong side either. To be on the safe side, I would say he is deeper the woman in the first stall in the fish market. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 9:18 AM Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] . [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:Zen_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ yahoo. com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now! __ NOD32 3505 (20081008) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Edgar and Margie, I am fine at this moment, not really suffering a lot. Meanwhile I am scared by stories of suffering. If you think the best way is not to think about suffering, just 'think' about the present, I can say nothing more. Edgar, with your scientific approach, please read carefully the nderf, then tell me they are all bullshiting. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:37 PM Anthony and Margie, Anthony, would it help if you knew that the great all loving all powerful mother of the universe has you in her arms loving you at every moment including right now? She does. It's called being alive in her arms You just simply need to experience it. And make that the essence of your experience in every moment :-) Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:27 PM, roloro1557 wrote: Hello Anthony- I think you are hurting yourself unnecessarily with this line of thought Anthony. I'm sorry for that, I don't like to see people suffer. Again, a look into history will show you that there is NOTHING that can ensure peace. Lots and lots of things have been tried through the ages and peace has never come. It is very ironic, people are willing to go to war, to kill and be killed over whose morality is the right one. It's a hard pill to swallow, I know, but the plain truth is that peace isn't the nature of most human beings. Or most human beings cannot see their buddha-nature. The only thing left is to create a peaceful place within yourself. There are many ways to do that, zazen, other forms of meditation, certain therapies, etc. I don't think anyone can find peace in the world without finding it within themselves first. Margie (roloro1557) --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony and Margie, Anthony, would it help if you knew that the great all loving all powerful mother of the universe has you in her arms loving you at every moment including right now? She does. It's called being alive in her arms You just simply need to experience it. And make that the essence of your experience in every moment :-) Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:27 PM, roloro1557 wrote: Hello Anthony- I think you are hurting yourself unnecessarily with this line of thought Anthony. I'm sorry for that, I don't like to see people suffer. Again, a look into history will show you that there is NOTHING that can ensure peace. Lots and lots of things have been tried through the ages and peace has never come. It is very ironic, people are willing to go to war, to kill and be killed over whose morality is the right one. It's a hard pill to swallow, I know, but the plain truth is that peace isn't the nature of most human beings. Or most human beings cannot see their buddha-nature. The only thing left is to create a peaceful place within yourself. There are many ways to do that, zazen, other forms of meditation, certain therapies, etc. I don't think anyone can find peace in the world without finding it within themselves first. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Bill, When one realizes the essential non-separation of all things, that they are all expressions of the same basic substance and interconnected flow, that separation into discrete things is an illusion, then one naturally acts compassionately towards all things which sometimes includes protecting some things against destruction by other things. Those actions are somewhat arbitrary based on where one's center is relative to the other things, where one's center is in the flow, in which local eddies in the flow. By so acting, action is in accord with the flow of Tao. One freely expresses the local forces of the flow of Tao. That is active Zen. Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 11:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I define 'morals' as a code of conduct. This code can be very complex - as in Islamic Sharia Law or the Jewish Talmud; or can be fairly short as in the Old Testament's 10 Commandments or the Buddhist 5 Precepts; or can be very simple as in Jesus' teaching to 'Love one another'. More important to this discussion is whether morals are thought to be absolute or relative. Most religions (all?) believe the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore codes of conduct are ABSOLUTE. The code or list from which the 'correct' action can be derived should apply to ALL situations and most importantly to ALL people. What's right or wrong in all situations and for all people. This makes it easy to judge the conduct of both yourself and others. Since there are a lot of situations and a lot of people, most religion's codes of conduct are very complex. Zen's perspective on the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore the selection of a 'correct' action is RELATIVE. The 'correct' action depends the situation, and most importantly is determined by each individual for themselves. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right in a different situation. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right for someone else in the same situation. This makes it unnecessary to judge (after-the-fact) your own conduct since your actions were completely determined by the situation at the time of execution; and it is impossible (or at least useless) to try to judge the conduct of others. This also means that zen cannot ascribe to any formal code of conduct or morals. Hope this helps...Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of roloro1557 Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:44 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Mayka- Morals are just a set of arbitrary rules imposed by society, culture, religion, etc. They are meaningless. They are empty concepts. And they differ hugely from culture to culture. This creates nothing but endless arguments about whose morals are right and whose are wrong. Real morality is just doing what you know is right, it really is that simple. Margie (roloro1557)
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Margie and Anthony, Margie is correct. There are no such comparisons in Zen, no black belt rankings. Zen is not something 'in' a person, or that a person can 'have'. Zen is simply the way the entire universe actually is. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and dancing in tune with the Uni-Verse. Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:18 PM, roloro1557 wrote: Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557)
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Mayka, Mind dull ness? Don't you mean Mind full ness? Very funny misspelling Mr. Freud! Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:59 PM, Mayka wrote: The single word you're looking for is perhaps mindullness? Just wonder Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, I'll be happy to give you a single word that describes 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil': Mu! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Mayka, I think we might have a misunderstanding here. My point is that how do we reconcile two opposing moral values when both sides believe their view is morally correct and the other side's is immoral? In my mind, moral values are culturally relative and there is no absolute morally correct position. For example, is killing a healthy newborn child moral or immoral? Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 23:18:51 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hello Mike; What are you doing? Moral Values are not exactly the same as moralistic values. It seems to me that the only who understood that were the gays from Yale University!. A shame they're not on this website to ask them for a little support here. What you're describing are sick moralistic values. Did I not say before that moral is a double razor?. In the mind clean and pure as an innocent childlike, moral values are also clean. In a more poluted mind moral values are sick. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayaka, If, as you say, all these people have moral values then why is there so much suffering and strife in the world? I would say exactly because people have moral values, or rather, opposing moral values. For example, on issues such as abortion, drug use, age of consent, homosexuality etc who determines what is morally correct? Corrupt, rich, white, hypocritical, male politicians do. We need laws, but laws shouldn't reflect the moral values of only a very small group in society who also have vested interests. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 16:51:30 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen I also define moral as a code of conduct. It was that explained in a post to Jack Master. There must have been an linguistic error here from my side. And so I'll try again to explain it and be a little bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality is something moralistic. Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used can have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based in a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of real insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person who is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to others. In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic person is boring. But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the morality of others or society. A person with no moral values is a dangerous person. The Dalai Lama has his moral values. Gandhi had his moral values. Thich Nhat Hanh has his moral values. Martin Luther King Junior had his moral values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own moral values. A person without moral values is a person of not being trusted. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, BillSmart@ .. wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I define 'morals' as a code of conduct. This code can be very complex - as in Islamic Sharia Law or the Jewish Talmud; or can be fairly short as in the Old Testament's 10 Commandments or the Buddhist 5 Precepts; or can be very simple as in Jesus' teaching to 'Love one another'. More important to this discussion is whether morals are thought to be absolute or relative. Most religions (all?) believe the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore codes of conduct are ABSOLUTE. The code or list from which the 'correct' action can be derived should apply to ALL situations and most importantly to ALL people. What's right or wrong in all situations and for all people. This makes it easy to judge the conduct of both yourself and others. Since there are a lot of situations and a lot of people, most religion's codes of conduct are very complex. Zen's perspective on the discrimination between right and wrong and therefore the selection of a 'correct' action is RELATIVE. The 'correct' action depends the situation, and most importantly is determined by each individual for themselves. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right in a different situation. What's right for you in a certain situation might not be right for someone else in the same situation. This makes it unnecessary to judge (after-the-fact) your own conduct since your actions were completely determined by the situation at the time of execution; and it is impossible (or at least useless) to try to judge the conduct of others. This also means that zen cannot ascribe
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Morning Margie, Well that answers the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' What doesn't? :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, roloro1557 wrote: Morning Edgar, Not only that, but I see people doing zen (or getting done by zen) all the time who are obviously not zennists. Watch a mother and her child, or someone really into their work, or children. I used to do a lot of babysitting for friends of mine. Once when I was sitting with little Eddie my music teacher dropped by with some notes for me. It was winter and very cold out. I asked my teacher to stay for a hot cup of tea. Eddie asked for lemonade, and I asked him if he wanted ice. He said Yes. My teacher said, It's wintertime, cold outside, why do you want ice? Eddie replied very matter-of-factly, It's not wintertime in my cup. Perhaps it was one of those things where you had to be there, but it's one of the most zen things I've ever seen. Zen is everywhere, all the time. You never know where and when it will turn up. Animals are eloquent zennists, without ever sitting zazen or reading books of quotes of old Chinese masters. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Margie and Anthony, Margie is correct. There are no such comparisons in Zen, no black belt rankings. Zen is not something 'in' a person, or that a person can 'have'. Zen is simply the way the entire universe actually is. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and dancing in tune with the Uni-Verse. Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Edgar, Does a cow have Buddha nature? Mike. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 1:18:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Morning Margie, Well that answers the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' What doesn't? :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, roloro1557 wrote: Morning Edgar, Not only that, but I see people doing zen (or getting done by zen) all the time who are obviously not zennists. Watch a mother and her child, or someone really into their work, or children. I used to do a lot of babysitting for friends of mine. Once when I was sitting with little Eddie my music teacher dropped by with some notes for me. It was winter and very cold out. I asked my teacher to stay for a hot cup of tea. Eddie asked for lemonade, and I asked him if he wanted ice. He said Yes. My teacher said, It's wintertime, cold outside, why do you want ice? Eddie replied very matter-of-factly, It's not wintertime in my cup. Perhaps it was one of those things where you had to be there, but it's one of the most zen things I've ever seen. Zen is everywhere, all the time. You never know where and when it will turn up. Animals are eloquent zennists, without ever sitting zazen or reading books of quotes of old Chinese masters. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Margie and Anthony, Margie is correct. There are no such comparisons in Zen, no black belt rankings. Zen is not something 'in' a person, or that a person can 'have'. Zen is simply the way the entire universe actually is. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and dancing in tune with the Uni-Verse. Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Bill, There is no mirror to wipe the dust from! Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, I am as deep as a mirror...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:53 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Margie, I am poor at knowing other peoples experience. But Bill's words sounds like the zen literature I read--to be ruminated. I don't have to curry favor with him. I don't want to err on the wrong side either. To be on the safe side, I would say he is deeper the woman in the first stall in the fish market. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 9:18 AM Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] . [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:Zen_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ yahoo. com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now! __ NOD32 3505 (20081008) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, Hmm, I can appreciate the sentiment but I can't really agree that Animals are eloquent zennists. We may often observe animals appearing to 'be in the moment', but zen is also about how to live and die mindfully. For instance, we can also observe animals cowering fearfully from certain situations (aversion) and also acting instictively/behaviourally from out of basic desires (eg, snapping at other animals that get in their way). I think animals can make excellent teachers of zen, but not because they are living zen. Mike.
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Muuu! :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:21 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Edgar, Does a cow have Buddha nature? Mike. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 1:18:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Morning Margie, Well that answers the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' What doesn't? :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, roloro1557 wrote: Morning Edgar, Not only that, but I see people doing zen (or getting done by zen) all the time who are obviously not zennists. Watch a mother and her child, or someone really into their work, or children. I used to do a lot of babysitting for friends of mine. Once when I was sitting with little Eddie my music teacher dropped by with some notes for me. It was winter and very cold out. I asked my teacher to stay for a hot cup of tea. Eddie asked for lemonade, and I asked him if he wanted ice. He said Yes. My teacher said, It's wintertime, cold outside, why do you want ice? Eddie replied very matter-of-factly, It's not wintertime in my cup. Perhaps it was one of those things where you had to be there, but it's one of the most zen things I've ever seen. Zen is everywhere, all the time. You never know where and when it will turn up. Animals are eloquent zennists, without ever sitting zazen or reading books of quotes of old Chinese masters. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Margie and Anthony, Margie is correct. There are no such comparisons in Zen, no black belt rankings. Zen is not something 'in' a person, or that a person can 'have'. Zen is simply the way the entire universe actually is. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and dancing in tune with the Uni-Verse. Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Well, M! works better, but you got the idea! An oldie but a goodie (the joke, that is..). Mike :) - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 2:07:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Muuu! :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:21 PM, mike brown wrote: Hi Edgar, Does a cow have Buddha nature? Mike. - Original Message From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 1:18:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Morning Margie, Well that answers the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' What doesn't? :-) Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, roloro1557 wrote: Morning Edgar, Not only that, but I see people doing zen (or getting done by zen) all the time who are obviously not zennists. Watch a mother and her child, or someone really into their work, or children. I used to do a lot of babysitting for friends of mine. Once when I was sitting with little Eddie my music teacher dropped by with some notes for me. It was winter and very cold out. I asked my teacher to stay for a hot cup of tea. Eddie asked for lemonade, and I asked him if he wanted ice. He said Yes. My teacher said, It's wintertime, cold outside, why do you want ice? Eddie replied very matter-of-factly, It's not wintertime in my cup. Perhaps it was one of those things where you had to be there, but it's one of the most zen things I've ever seen. Zen is everywhere, all the time. You never know where and when it will turn up. Animals are eloquent zennists, without ever sitting zazen or reading books of quotes of old Chinese masters. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Margie and Anthony, Margie is correct. There are no such comparisons in Zen, no black belt rankings. Zen is not something 'in' a person, or that a person can 'have'. Zen is simply the way the entire universe actually is. It's just a matter of looking and seeing and dancing in tune with the Uni-Verse. Edgar
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Good question Mike but it doesn't correspond to me anwer to it but yourself have to answer that question. Go very deeply into it and you'll see that your moral values will answer that for you. I don't believe in killing. I support no killing in the world. Does it come this due to moral values?. I don't think so. It comes by sensitivity. For instance, I became a vegetarian when a was a teenager because I couldn't handle or accept the way animals were treated when taken to manslaughter. I was the first vegetarian of the History of my town. Every body laughed at me and made sometimes unpleasant jokes about me being a vegetarian. Do you really think that I was guided by the standard morality?. Certainly not. They were all eat meaters and didn't care about cruelty over animals!. I was guided by myself moral values. I don't know whether you've had read the biography of Martin Luther King Junior. But if you had then you can observe that first Martin at the same time of receiving education, he also observes around. Later on he becomes very strong and very solid in his moral values. Once he absorved all that knowledge, information, observation, reflection, direct experience his own moral values. Moral values are just a pure guide. It's the same with the precepts or mindfullness Trainings from TNH. Are not things to be followed literally but to be developed by oneself sensitivity and open mind. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, I think we might have a misunderstanding here. My point is that how do we reconcile two opposing moral values when both sides believe their view is morally correct and the other side's is immoral? In my mind, moral values are culturally relative and there is no absolute morally correct position. For example, is killing a healthy newborn child moral or immoral? Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 23:18:51 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hello Mike; What are you doing? Moral Values are not exactly the same as moralistic values. It seems to me that the only who understood that were the gays from Yale University!. A shame they're not on this website to ask them for a little support here. What you're describing are sick moralistic values. Did I not say before that moral is a double razor?. In the mind clean and pure as an innocent childlike, moral values are also clean. In a more poluted mind moral values are sick. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayaka, If, as you say, all these people have moral values then why is there so much suffering and strife in the world? I would say exactly because people have moral values, or rather, opposing moral values. For example, on issues such as abortion, drug use, age of consent, homosexuality etc who determines what is morally correct? Corrupt, rich, white, hypocritical, male politicians do. We need laws, but laws shouldn't reflect the moral values of only a very small group in society who also have vested interests. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 16:51:30 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen I also define moral as a code of conduct. It was that explained in a post to Jack Master. There must have been an linguistic error here from my side. And so I'll try again to explain it and be a little bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality is something moralistic. Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used can have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based in a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of real insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person who is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to others. In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic person is boring. But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the morality of others or society. A person with no moral values is a dangerous person. The Dalai Lama has his moral values. Gandhi had his moral values. Thich Nhat Hanh has his moral values. Martin Luther King Junior had his moral values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own moral values. A person without moral values is a person of not being trusted. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, BillSmart@ .. wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I define 'morals
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Mayka, Good for you! I was a strict vegetarian for 15 years and still eat minimal meat as possible. Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Mayka wrote: Good question Mike but it doesn't correspond to me anwer to it but yourself have to answer that question. Go very deeply into it and you'll see that your moral values will answer that for you. I don't believe in killing. I support no killing in the world. Does it come this due to moral values?. I don't think so. It comes by sensitivity. For instance, I became a vegetarian when a was a teenager because I couldn't handle or accept the way animals were treated when taken to manslaughter. I was the first vegetarian of the History of my town. Every body laughed at me and made sometimes unpleasant jokes about me being a vegetarian. Do you really think that I was guided by the standard morality?. Certainly not. They were all eat meaters and didn't care about cruelty over animals!. I was guided by myself moral values. I don't know whether you've had read the biography of Martin Luther King Junior. But if you had then you can observe that first Martin at the same time of receiving education, he also observes around. Later on he becomes very strong and very solid in his moral values. Once he absorved all that knowledge, information, observation, reflection, direct experience his own moral values. Moral values are just a pure guide. It's the same with the precepts or mindfullness Trainings from TNH. Are not things to be followed literally but to be developed by oneself sensitivity and open mind. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka, I think we might have a misunderstanding here. My point is that how do we reconcile two opposing moral values when both sides believe their view is morally correct and the other side's is immoral? In my mind, moral values are culturally relative and there is no absolute morally correct position. For example, is killing a healthy newborn child moral or immoral? Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 23:18:51 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hello Mike; What are you doing? Moral Values are not exactly the same as moralistic values. It seems to me that the only who understood that were the gays from Yale University!. A shame they're not on this website to ask them for a little support here. What you're describing are sick moralistic values. Did I not say before that moral is a double razor?. In the mind clean and pure as an innocent childlike, moral values are also clean. In a more poluted mind moral values are sick. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Mayaka, If, as you say, all these people have moral values then why is there so much suffering and strife in the world? I would say exactly because people have moral values, or rather, opposing moral values. For example, on issues such as abortion, drug use, age of consent, homosexuality etc who determines what is morally correct? Corrupt, rich, white, hypocritical, male politicians do. We need laws, but laws shouldn't reflect the moral values of only a very small group in society who also have vested interests. Mike. - Original Message From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 16:51:30 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen I also define moral as a code of conduct. It was that explained in a post to Jack Master. There must have been an linguistic error here from my side. And so I'll try again to explain it and be a little bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality is something moralistic. Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used can have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based in a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of real insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person who is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to others. In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic person is boring. But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the morality of others or society. A person with no moral values is a dangerous person. The Dalai Lama has his moral values. Gandhi had his moral values. Thich Nhat Hanh has his moral values. Martin Luther King Junior had his moral values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own moral values. A person without moral values is a person of not being trusted. Thanks for posting Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, BillSmart@ .. wrote: Makya, My view of morals is the same as Margie's. I
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Correction: there is a mirror, but no dust to wipe. Anthony --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 12:24 AM Bill, There is no mirror to wipe the dust from! Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] org wrote: Anthony, I am as deep as a mirror...Bill! From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:53 PM To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Margie, I am poor at knowing other peoples experience. But Bill's words sounds like the zen literature I read--to be ruminated. I don't have to curry favor with him. I don't want to err on the wrong side either. To be on the safe side, I would say he is deeper the woman in the first stall in the fish market.. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 9:18 AM Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] . [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:Zen_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ yahoo. com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) _ _ _ _ Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now! __ NOD32 3505 (20081008) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you#39;ve always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Anthony- Yes, going by his posts here in the forum, Bill is wise and smart and fair. I like Bill too, he's a marvelous cook wink I was trying to get you to look into your assumptions about yourself and other people. . . Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Margie, I am poor at knowing other peoples experience. But Bill's words sounds like the zen literature I read--to be ruminated. I don't have to curry favor with him. I don't want to err on the wrong side either. To be on the safe side, I would say he is deeper the woman in the first stall in the fish market.. Regards, Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
www.nderf.org Regards, Anthony --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 1:16 AM Anthony, Give me the nderf link again and I'll take a look. Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Edgar and Margie, I am fine at this moment, not really suffering a lot. Meanwhile I am scared by stories of suffering. If you think the best way is not to think about suffering, just 'think' about the present, I can say nothing more. Edgar, with your scientific approach, please read carefully the nderf, then tell me they are all bullshiting. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:37 PM Anthony and Margie, Anthony, would it help if you knew that the great all loving all powerful mother of the universe has you in her arms loving you at every moment including right now? She does. It's called being alive in her arms You just simply need to experience it. And make that the essence of your experience in every moment :-) Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:27 PM, roloro1557 wrote: Hello Anthony- I think you are hurting yourself unnecessarily with this line of thought Anthony. I'm sorry for that, I don't like to see people suffer. Again, a look into history will show you that there is NOTHING that can ensure peace. Lots and lots of things have been tried through the ages and peace has never come. It is very ironic, people are willing to go to war, to kill and be killed over whose morality is the right one. It's a hard pill to swallow, I know, but the plain truth is that peace isn't the nature of most human beings. Or most human beings cannot see their buddha-nature. The only thing left is to create a peaceful place within yourself. There are many ways to do that, zazen, other forms of meditation, certain therapies, etc. I don't think anyone can find peace in the world without finding it within themselves first. Margie (roloro1557) --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony Try cool new emoticons, skins, plus more space for friends. Download Yahoo! Messenger Singapore now. New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Anthony- I think the best way is to concentrate on what's happening right here, right now. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Edgar and Margie, I am fine at this moment, not really suffering a lot. Meanwhile I am scared by stories of suffering. If you think the best way is not to think about suffering, just 'think' about the present, I can say nothing more. Edgar, with your scientific approach, please read carefully the nderf, then tell me they are all bullshiting. Regards, Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, This escapist approach is a good idea (no joke). Why not live in a fool's paradise (please note I am not sarcastic). It is one way to be happy. Should we forget about our own present and possible future suffering, and that of other people? Please don't be offended. Regards, Anthony --- On Fri, 10/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 6:54 AM Hi Anthony- I think the best way is to concentrate on what's happening right here, right now. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Edgar and Margie, I am fine at this moment, not really suffering a lot. Meanwhile I am scared by stories of suffering. If you think the best way is not to think about suffering, just 'think' about the present, I can say nothing more. Edgar, with your scientific approach, please read carefully the nderf, then tell me they are all bullshiting. Regards, Anthony Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Anthony, I'm not offended. But you are like a dog chasing it's own tail. The discussion is beginning to wear me out. You keep asking the same questions over and over again. You are not satisfied with any of the answers you get and at the same time seem unwilling to find your own answers. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, This escapist approach is a good idea (no joke). Why not live in a fool's paradise (please note I am not sarcastic). It is one way to be happy. Should we forget about our own present and possible future suffering, and that of other people? Please don't be offended. Regards, Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, That's exactly how I see it too. I think you can no more get rid of desires/aversions than you can stop your kidneys producing urine :) I also think your quote addresses exactly what I stated about animals and zen. Mike. - Original Message From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 8:20:54 Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Mike- R.H. Blyth: Zen does not mean not fearing; it means not fearing to fear. I think your understanding is more colored by Buddhism than mine. Which is wonderful and fine and terrific. You have your zen and I have my zen and it's OK. My understanding of it has never been that one should get rid of aversions and desires, but rather one should understand them for what they are- clouds passing over the face of the moon. One should be mindful about them rather than simply acting on them. That is- one needn't always pay attention to them, certainly one needn't always act on them. Acknowledge them and let them go. Don't give them any energy. Like magic they just disappear! ;-) Being without desires and aversions seems inhuman to me, and zen is about being FULLY human. But that's just the way I see it- Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ ... wrote: Hi Margie, Hmm, I can appreciate the sentiment but I can't really agree that Animals are eloquent zennists. We may often observe animals appearing to 'be in the moment', but zen is also about how to live and die mindfully. For instance, we can also observe animals cowering fearfully from certain situations (aversion) and also acting instictively/ behaviourally from out of basic desires (eg, snapping at other animals that get in their way). I think animals can make excellent teachers of zen, but not because they are living zen. Mike.
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony, I went to the nderf home page and looked around. It didn't take me long to see the 'scientists' were the same ones selling 'spiritual necklaces and jewelry'. At that point I left having found no actual scientific studies. BTW, even if there were good scientific evidence of people viewing from outside their body (i've actually had that kind of nde myself once in Japan) that would say nothing about persistence of consciousness after death since there was no death yet at that point. Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:50 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: www.nderf.org Regards, Anthony --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 1:16 AM Anthony, Give me the nderf link again and I'll take a look. Edgar On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Edgar and Margie, I am fine at this moment, not really suffering a lot. Meanwhile I am scared by stories of suffering. If you think the best way is not to think about suffering, just 'think' about the present, I can say nothing more. Edgar, with your scientific approach, please read carefully the nderf, then tell me they are all bullshiting. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net wrote: From: Edgar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:37 PM Anthony and Margie, Anthony, would it help if you knew that the great all loving all powerful mother of the universe has you in her arms loving you at every moment including right now? She does. It's called being alive in her arms You just simply need to experience it. And make that the essence of your experience in every moment :-) Edgar On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:27 PM, roloro1557 wrote: Hello Anthony- I think you are hurting yourself unnecessarily with this line of thought Anthony. I'm sorry for that, I don't like to see people suffer. Again, a look into history will show you that there is NOTHING that can ensure peace. Lots and lots of things have been tried through the ages and peace has never come. It is very ironic, people are willing to go to war, to kill and be killed over whose morality is the right one. It's a hard pill to swallow, I know, but the plain truth is that peace isn't the nature of most human beings. Or most human beings cannot see their buddha-nature. The only thing left is to create a peaceful place within yourself. There are many ways to do that, zazen, other forms of meditation, certain therapies, etc. I don't think anyone can find peace in the world without finding it within themselves first. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony Try cool new emoticons, skins, plus more space for friends. Download Yahoo! Messenger Singapore now. Is digital camera better than film camera? Compare both on Yahoo Answers!
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 6:21 AM Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hello Anthony- How does morality contribute to peace? Look into history, and ask yourself, how does morality contribute to peace? Isn't the result exactly the opposite? Morality creates turmoil because then people start arguing about which morality should be the rule. Wars have been fought over this, lots of them. I really think it's an important question for you. How does morality contribute to peace? Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Â If there is peace without morality, I will live with it. I just don't like turmoil. I can forget about right or wrong. Because the latter would normally leads to endless argument with different standards. Â Regards, Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, Then change my term from morality to peaceality or whatever that can ensure peace. I am also opposed to manmade standards of morality, which, like you say lead to endless arguments and struggles. In order to maintain peace, you need something to go by. I have trouble accepting 'just it'. Or Buddha nature, which not everybody follows. You can say everybody has Buddha nature, but when it comes to performance, the opposite is frequently true. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:26 AM Hello Anthony- How does morality contribute to peace? Look into history, and ask yourself, how does morality contribute to peace? Isn't the result exactly the opposite? Morality creates turmoil because then people start arguing about which morality should be the rule. Wars have been fought over this, lots of them. I really think it's an important question for you. How does morality contribute to peace? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Â If there is peace without morality, I will live with it. I just don't like turmoil. I can forget about right or wrong. Because the latter would normally leads to endless argument with different standards. Â Regards, Anthony New Email names for you! Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi anthony; I can understand your troubles since English is not my first language. what is your Mother tongue language?. however, since moral is a latin word borrewed by anglo first and later on by Americans, I'd like to ask you not to use it in a superficial manner. If you mean morality as something you have realice within yourself, then you're safe. But if that is something you've just heard with no direct experience or realization of the meaning within yourself...Then you might be better dropping. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka,  By morality I mean in general whatever can give us peace. My English is not good enough to differentiate between morality and moralistic.  Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:23 AM What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: Hi Margie, àIf there is peace without morality, I will live with it. I just don't like turmoil. I can forget about right or wrong. Because the latter would normally leads to endless argument with different standards. àRegards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ ... wrote: From: roloro1557 roloro1557@ ... Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 6:44 AM Hello Anthony, But you haven't answered my question - I'll try to phrase it more precisely: Why is morality such an important issue for you personally? What is it that you seek peace from? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: Hi Margie, ÃâàDo you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. ÃâàRegards, Anthony Expand your social network today - Yahoo! Singapore Search. http://sg.search. yahoo.com/ search? p=social+networking +sitescs= bzfr=fp- top Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Mayka, My mother tongue is Chinese. I have been travelling around speaking different languages and dialects, ending up with nothing I am fluent with. I have no problems dropping the word morality. But what do you say so that peace can be maintained? If you say in zen you don't have to say anything, then I agree to keep silent. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:03 AM Hi anthony; I can understand your troubles since English is not my first language. what is your Mother tongue language?. however, since moral is a latin word borrewed by anglo first and later on by Americans, I'd like to ask you not to use it in a superficial manner. If you mean morality as something you have realice within yourself, then you're safe. But if that is something you've just heard with no direct experience or realization of the meaning within yourself...Then you might be better dropping. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka,  By morality I mean in general whatever can give us peace. My English is not good enough to differentiate between morality and moralistic.  Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, Mayka flordeloto@ ... wrote: From: Mayka flordeloto@ ... Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 7:23 AM What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: Hi Margie,  If there is peace without morality, I will live with it. I just don't like turmoil. I can forget about right or wrong. Because the latter would normally leads to endless argument with different standards.  Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 roloro1557@ ... wrote: From: roloro1557 roloro1557@ ... Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 6:44 AM Hello Anthony, But you haven't answered my question - I'll try to phrase it more precisely: Why is morality such an important issue for you personally? What is it that you seek peace from? Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: Hi Margie,  Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality.  Regards, Anthony Expand your social network today - Yahoo! Singapore Search. http://sg.search. yahoo.com/ search? p=social+networking +sitescs= bzfr=fp- top Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. com http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/ __ Tired of visiting multiple sites for showtimes? Yahoo! Movies is all you need http://sg.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie, Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ ... wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 5:29 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 6:21 AM Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:15 AM Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 5:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 6:21 AM Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) _ _ _ _ New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony, I'll be happy to give you a single word that describes 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil': Mu! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie! If this is yor way of understandign no wonder you feel so rebelious about morals and morality!. I would react in the same way as you! -- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Margie again; I thought you already explained!: By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka- I'm not sure what you mean, could you please explain further? Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: Hi Margie! If this is yor way of understandign no wonder you feel so rebelious about morals and morality!. I would react in the same way as you! -- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, roloro1557 roloro1557@ wrote: Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Excuse me Anthony, but how do you know Bill has something deeper? Deeper than whom? Me? You? Edgar? Ghandi? Sean Connery? Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates? Martin Luther King? Your next door neighbor? The woman in the 3rd stall at the fish market? My dog? How is it that you know so well what other people's experience is? Do you have psychic powers? How do you know? Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Like I said, you have something deeper. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, Anthony, if you really feel that way, it's not the world that's in turmoil. It's you. Just sit. That's where you'll find peace..Bill! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Hi Margie, Do you want to find the world in turmoil? Show me how to live in the world in peace without any kind of morality. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] com wrote: Dear Macaroni, Why is morality such an important issue for you? Margie (roloro1557) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Margie; You may be right and wonder if there might be a linguistic or insight proble here. I'd rather not to repeat mysel again and the word of moral was already explained previously in a post to Jackson Master in my way of understanding. Moral is a latin word by the way which derives from moralis or something like that. This gives me enough confident to discuss about it. And as for morality...I'm not sure but in English is sound like an adjective. It sounds also to me as the way you are interpretating the adjective for moralistic which means the ones who say what they hear but not go deep intolike a kind of death moral or in decay...which many follow but not many know the real meaning...A narrow way of real morality. I don't know. Please, you tell me. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mayka- I think there is a communication problem, perhaps caused by our different languages. I still don't understand what you mean... Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: Hi Margie again; I thought you already explained!: By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
The single word you're looking for is perhaps mindullness? Just wonder Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony, I'll be happy to give you a single word that describes 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil': Mu! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen Hi Margie, Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! __ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Zen --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Margie, Â Then find me a different word that better describe 'how to maintain peace and avoid turmoil'. Â Regards, Anthony --- On Thu, 9/10/08, roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: roloro1557 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 9 October, 2008, 8:07 AM Hi Mayka- By morals and morality I mean an imposed set of definitions of right and wrong and correlative rules for human behavior. Examples would be the christian 10 commandments, the buddhist precepts, etc. Moralistic is of morals or morality. Margie (roloro1557) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Mayka flordeloto@ ... wrote: What is your way of understanding morality?. Do you mean morality or moralistic?. Could you clarify? Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Mayka- Morals are just a set of arbitrary rules imposed by society, culture, religion, etc. They are meaningless. They are empty concepts. And they differ hugely from culture to culture. This creates nothing but endless arguments about whose morals are right and whose are wrong. Real morality is just doing what you know is right, it really is that simple. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Margie; You may be right and wonder if there might be a linguistic or insight proble here. I'd rather not to repeat mysel again and the word of moral was already explained previously in a post to Jackson Master in my way of understanding. Moral is a latin word by the way which derives from moralis or something like that. This gives me enough confident to discuss about it. And as for morality...I'm not sure but in English is sound like an adjective. It sounds also to me as the way you are interpretating the adjective for moralistic which means the ones who say what they hear but not go deep intolike a kind of death moral or in decay...which many follow but not many know the real meaning...A narrow way of real morality. I don't know. Please, you tell me. Mayka Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Anthony, You are an atheist who is an evil ego-maniac? Sincerely, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, Â I am one of them. Â Regards, Anthony --- On Mon, 6/10/08, cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 11:25 AM --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Karin tortillera77@ ... wrote: Most Atheists who are evil ego-maniacs are men. Really? Please name some of them for me. Was that a scientific study? An informal poll? Thank You, Chris Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist.Download it now! http://sg.toolbar.yahoo.com/ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Chris, I am a non-atheist that is also an ego-maniac. I hesitate to add a qualification of 'evil'. Regards, Anthony --- On Wed, 8/10/08, cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: cid830 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 2:22 AM Anthony, You are an atheist who is an evil ego-maniac? Sincerely, Chris --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Anthony Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, Â I am one of them. Â Regards, Anthony --- On Mon, 6/10/08, cid830 summitjags@ ... wrote: From: cid830 summitjags@ ... Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and Zen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 11:25 AM --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Karin tortillera77@ ... wrote: Most Atheists who are evil ego-maniacs are men. Really? Please name some of them for me. Was that a scientific study? An informal poll? Thank You, Chris Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist.Download it now! http://sg.toolbar. yahoo.com/ Try cool new emoticons, skins, plus more space for friends. Download Yahoo! Messenger Singapore now! http://sg.messenger.yahoo.com
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you need a purpose to guide your actions, or you need a promise of reward or threat of retribution to convince you not to kill, burn, steal, or rape, try Christianity or one of the many other religions that provide you with an external daddy that will tell you what to do and punish you if you don't. So if you are a child you will know right from wrong just by doing zazen? Basically you are arguing that Zen has no morality, and you get morality from Christianity? So if the world was Zen only it would be an amoral world where nobody would teach any kind of morals because morals are not necessary or enlightened? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Mac A. Roni, I'll respond to your recent post line by line, but first I want to make sure we're both talking about the same thing when we talk about the ability to determine right from wrong. It appears you use the term 'morality' for that, and so do I. I define 'morality' the same way it is defined by Wikitionary: 'The ability to distinguish good and evil or right and wrong, right or good conduct; Motivation based on ideas of right and wrong.' So, if you have a different concept of these terms, let me know and read no further. Otherwise my responses to your post are below: So if you are a child you will know right from wrong just by doing zazen? If you are a child (or anyone else no matter what age) you will NOT learn right from wrong by doing zazen. You learn right from wrong through teachings and examples from a external sources - like your parents, big sisters or brothers, friends, neighbors, teachers - and maybe even by going to a Christian Bible-study class, a Jewish yeshiva or a Islamic madrassa. Basically you are arguing that Zen has no morality,... Correct. Zen rejects dualistic thinking which would include the dualism of labeling an act right or wrong, moral or immoral. ...and you get morality from Christianity? Correct, and also from most other religions and other external sources like the examples cited above. So if the world was Zen only it would be an amoral world where nobody would teach any kind of morals because morals are not necessary or enlightened? Correct. You used the correct term - amoral which is defined by Wikionary as 'being neither moral nor immoral; not believing in or caring for morality and immorality'. For a person possessing a pasta pseudonym you're pretty perceptive! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Hi Al, For me zen does give me everything I want. Most definitely I don't want to die sitting on a cushion - I want to die with my boots on as the old saying goes. I don't believe in heaven or nirvana, anyway even if I did I would not want to go to heaven or nirvana unless everyone and all life could also go. Margie (roloro1557) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you willing to die sitting on a cushion just saying this is it? No Heaven for you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms?? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
Zen is to be Free from Want! Who is willing to die, where ever they are? If you truly experience your being, at one with the NOW, your Heaven is here. You can't worry about what will happen after you die, because who REALLY knows? Later, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you willing to die sitting on a cushion just saying this is it? No Heaven for you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms?? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/