RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-19 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

 

I’m sorry my remarks were rational.  I’ll try to remedy that next time…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Bill,

 

Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an 
asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well,  over there.

 

The rest of your remarks below are very rational.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM

  

Anthony,

If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that 
wouldn’t bother me.

I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual 
laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not 
possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc…   It is possible 
to have concepts (illusions) about them.

…Bill!

  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

  


Bill,

 

Your statement below is contradictory:

- You know there are no spiritual truths.

- You don't know whether there are spiritual truths.

 

anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM 

  

Anthony,

I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual 
truths.  

…Bill! 

  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

  


ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM 

  



Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony

 



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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-19 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
Does killing the Buddha resolve the problem of whether you should jump off the 
precipice, or turn back to avoid killing your self?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 19/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 6:50 AM


  





 
Anthony,
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him . 
signifies:  
[Zen is] a special transmission outside of the scriptures,
No reliance on words and letters,
A direct pointing to the heart/mind of man,
And the realization of enlightenment.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,
  
 It is OK whatever you say. However, if I follow you, am I free to kill, rob 
 and loot?
  
 It is OK to kill buddha, Socrates or Mao Zedong. But when I stand on the 
 brink of a precipice, what do I do?
 
 Anthony









RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-19 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
So, I see you heading for the asylum. Maybe you already had a glimpse of what 
it is like. Is it fun? Can I join you there?
 
Anthony
 
PS, Seung Sahn says he is a lunatic, The difference is he can control when and 
where he gets in and out of the madness, while those at an asylum cannot. I 
hope you will find an improved place.

--- On Tue, 19/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 5:02 PM


  





Anthony,
 
I’m sorry my remarks were rational.  I’ll try to remedy that next time…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  








Bill,

 

Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an 
asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well,  over there.

 

The rest of your remarks below are very rational.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM

  



Anthony,
If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that 
wouldn’t bother me.
I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual 
laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not 
possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc…   It is possible 
to have concepts (illusions) about them.
…Bill!
  


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
  
  





Bill,

 

Your statement below is contradictory:

- You know there are no spiritual truths.

- You don't know whether there are spiritual truths.

 

anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM 

  



Anthony,
I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual 
truths.  
…Bill! 
  


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
  
  




ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM 

  




Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony

 


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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-19 Thread mike brown
Bill!
Been away from the computer for a while so haven't had chance to respond to a 
few posts. If I make it out to Thailand I'd be honoured to catch up with you 
and 
shoot the breeze. I've bought tickets for Bali and India, but I'm holding back 
on the Nepal (Himalayas) and SE Asia leg of the journey until I finalize a few 
things. I'll let you know in due course. Thanks again!
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
Your agnostic position is as much as to take a position of no position, at 
least for the time being. Are you waiting for it to be proven by science? But 
is the scientific proof final? Once Newton was consifered final, until Einstein 
appeared.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 9:26 AM


  





ED: do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true
conceptions
or not.

Anthony: I don't know either. But any better theory?

ED: I cannot see how anyone could hold a position different from mine.
Can you?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 I don't know either. But any better theory? The alternatives:

 - No retribution (materialistic view). So go killing, robbing and
raping.
 - Don't do that, or God will punish you.
 - Maybe you will get away, if you have good luck. Every thing by
chance.
 - If you are destined to be lucky, you do what you like. If not,
better watch out. Nobody can change luck. Not even God.

 What is your view?

 Anthony

 Anthony,

 karma: the effects of a person's actions that determine his destiny in
 his next incarnation

 truth: a fact that has been verified

 I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true
conceptions
 or not.

 --ED

  ED,

  Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution?

  Anthony










Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread Anthony Wu
Kristy,
 
It is easy to make them go on the same road. Just repeat the Mantra: you are 
illusion, you are illusion...
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:09 AM


  








 
*bows*
 
I doubt they would be on the same road in the first place. Maybe Socrates and 
Nietzche.  But then, I have a lot of reading undone.  k 





--- On Sun, 10/17/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 5:42 PM


 Anthony, 



As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED/Bill,
 
 In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I 
 don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a 
 precipice, I had better know better.
 
 Anthony

 









Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread Anthony Wu
Easier said than done. The best way to kill all discursive thinking is to 
become a zombie.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 9:40 AM


  





Anthony,

Kill all discursive thinking, one female German zen master (who had the
Inka of a well-known Japanese Zen master), sugggested to me in a sesshin
Dokusan some three decades ago.

--ED

PS: She was as strict as a Prussian General, and commanded us not to
move at all - even when our noses were dripping. (Sit, Fido, sit! ;-))

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill?

 Anthony

 Anthony,
 As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road,
kill both.
 --ED

  ED/Bill,
 
  In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I
know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I
stand on a precipice, I had better know better.
 
  Anthony










[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread ED



Anthony,




Anthony,

My position is: The data required to determine the truth or falsity of
karma/retribution or rebirth is not currently available (and will never
be available.)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 Your agnostic position is as much as to take a position of no
position, at least for the time being.

 Anthony



  ED: I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true
conceptions or not.




RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an 
asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well,  over there.
 
The rest of your remarks below are very rational.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM


  





Anthony,
If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that 
wouldn’t bother me.
I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual 
laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not 
possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc…   It is possible 
to have concepts (illusions) about them.
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  








Bill,

 

Your statement below is contradictory:

- You know there are no spiritual truths.

- You don't know whether there are spiritual truths.

 

anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM

  



Anthony,
I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual 
truths.  
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
  
  




ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM

  




Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony

 


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database 5538 (20101016) __

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http://www.eset.com 
  

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
  

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 




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database 5540 (20101017) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
http://www.eset.com

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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
It is OK whatever you say. However, if I follow you, am I free to kill, rob and 
loot?
 
It is OK to kill buddha, Socrates or Mao Zedong. But when I stand on the brink 
of a precipice, what do I do?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 19/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 6:05 AM


  




 
Anthony,
 

Anthony,
My position is: The data required to determine the truth or falsity of 
karma/retribution or rebirth is not currently available (and will never be 
available.)
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,
 Your agnostic position is as much as to take a position of no position, at 
least for the time being. 
 Anthony
 
  ED: I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true 
  conceptions or not.









[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-18 Thread ED




Anthony,

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him .

signifies:

[Zen is] a special transmission outside of the scriptures,

No reliance on words and letters,

A direct pointing to the heart/mind of man,

And the realization of enlightenment.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 It is OK whatever you say. However, if I follow you, am I free to
kill, rob and loot?

 It is OK to kill buddha, Socrates or Mao Zedong. But when I stand on
the brink of a precipice, what do I do?

 Anthony




RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

I would call myself an ‘agnostic’.

The roots of the word are ‘a’, which means ‘without’ (like ‘amoral’), and 
‘gnosis’ which means ‘knowledge of spiritual truths’.  So an ‘agnostic’ would 
be someone ‘ has no knowledge of spiritual truths’ – and that description fits 
me to a tee.

More commonly it is used to mean someone who believes that spiritual truths 
(like whether or not God exists) are unknowable.  I’d agree with that 
definition also, but not because of the usual reason – the belief that 
spiritual truths exist, but are unknowable to humans.  I believe spiritual 
truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths.  Spirits, 
spirituality, etc.., are all illusory.

There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS!

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM

  



Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony

 





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database 5538 (20101016) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

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database 5538 (20101016) __

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com



RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

All these qualities you assigned to me are also available to all comrades…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 4:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Bill,

That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny 
karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying 
bribes without compunction.

Anthony

--- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM

  

Mike,

I gave you incorrect information.  The map is on the CONTACT Page.  Click the 
small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location 
marked with a red star…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  

Mike,

I live in the province of Phetchabun.  See my personal website 
www.billsmart.com.  There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the 
location.  It’s a long way from Koh Chang.

Keep in touch.  I have no idea what I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even 
where I’ll be, but chances are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun.

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
mike brown
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  

Bill!,

 

Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around 
the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been 
to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always end up in Ko 
Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if 
you don't mind me asking)?

 

Mike

 



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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Maria Lopez
Very good answer Bill!.  I like the most the expression comrades..Hehehe...!!!

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 10:05


  





Anthony,
All these qualities you assigned to me are also available to all comrades…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 4:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  







Bill,

That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny 
karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying 
bribes without compunction.

Anthony

--- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM

  


Mike,
I gave you incorrect information.  The map is on the CONTACT Page.  Click the 
small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location 
marked with a red star…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  




Mike,
I live in the province of Phetchabun.  See my personal website 
www.billsmart.com.  There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the 
location.  It’s a long way from Koh Chang.
Keep in touch.  I have no idea what I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even 
where I’ll be, but chances are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun.
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
mike brown
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  




Bill!,
 
Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around 
the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been 
to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always end up in Ko 
Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if 
you don't mind me asking)?
 
Mike
 


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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


Bill,

Next question: What sort of agnostic is one?

--ED



Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief /wiki/Belief
that it is impossible for humans /wiki/Human  to know
/wiki/Knowledge  whether or not any deities /wiki/Deity  exist. It
is a broader view than weak agnosticism /wiki/Weak_agnosticism , which
states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but
not necessarily unknowable.

Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological
/wiki/Epistemology  grounds that humans can only experience the
natural world and thus cannot know about anything which may exist
outside it, including deities. One criticism is that this justification
is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively supernatural
/wiki/Supernatural  beings, but to support such a view one must have
at least some knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is,
as the natural world can be explained by science, the defining feature
of any deity must be supernatural.

Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief
(depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be
reconciled with theism /wiki/Theism  (as in fideism /wiki/Fideism )
or weak atheism /wiki/Weak_atheism  (as in agnostic atheism
/wiki/Agnostic_atheism ). However, it cannot be reconciled with strong
atheism /wiki/Strong_atheism , as strong atheism makes a positive
assertion that God does not exist, without the possibility that God may
exist and just be unknowable.

The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as
militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't
either.



RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

One is a single agnostic.  Two would be a pair of agnostics.  Three or more
would be a gaggle of agnostics.

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 6:40 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Bill,

Next question: What sort of agnostic is one?

--ED

 

Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief that it is
impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a
broader view than weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or
nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable.

Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological grounds that
humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know about
anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is
that this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively
supernatural beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some
knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural
world can be explained by science, the defining feature of any deity must be
supernatural.

Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief
(depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be
reconciled with theism (as in fideism) or weak atheism (as in agnostic
atheism). However, it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism, as strong
atheism makes a positive assertion that God does not exist, without the
possibility that God may exist and just be unknowable.

The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as
militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't
either.





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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


truth: a fact that has been verified; a conformity to reality or
actuality;

knowledge: cognition - the psychological result of perception and
learning and reasoning

belief: any cognitive content held as true



Bill,

There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS!

Is this a personal truth, a universal truth, or the truth according to
zen?

Thanks,

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS!

  Bill!






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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 10:50 AM


  





Anthony,

I *am* a non-believer in the Abrahmic (Jewish-Christian-Islamic)
God-conception.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be
tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will
summon a jihad.

 Anthony

 Anthony,

 I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and

 the supernatural are concerned.

 --ED

  Bill,

 

  That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star),
because

 you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the

 Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 

  Anthony











Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
According to Google, 
Sceptic: doubter close to non-believer.
Agnostic: doubter not believing or non-believing.
 
Based on the definition, are you the former or the latter?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 11:03 AM


  





Anthony, I think not. 
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1
 --ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED, 
 Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic.
 Anthony









RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Your statement below is contradictory:
- You know there are no spiritual truths.
- You don't know whether there are spiritual truths.
 
anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM


  





Anthony,
I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual 
truths.  
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  







ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM

  



Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony
 




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database 5538 (20101016) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
ED/Bill,

In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I 
don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a 
precipice, I had better know better.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:39 PM







 



  



  
  
  
Bill,
Next question: What sort of agnostic is one?
--ED
 
Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible 
for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a broader view than 
weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or nonexistence of any 
deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable.
Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological grounds that 
humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know about 
anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is that 
this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively 
supernatural beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some 
knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural world 
can be explained by science, the defining feature of any deity must be 
supernatural.
Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief 
(depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be reconciled 
with theism (as in fideism) or weak atheism (as in agnostic atheism). However, 
it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism, as strong atheism makes a positive 
assertion that God does not exist, without the possibility that God may exist 
and just be unknowable.
The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as militant 
agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't either.



 





 



  







RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
Stalin says, 'one agnostic shakes the world, but a million agnostics are just a 
statistic.'

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 9:00 PM







 



  



  
  
  







Ed, 

One is a single agnostic.  Two would be a pair of
agnostics.  Three or more would be a gaggle of agnostics. 

…Bill! 

   







From:
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED

Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 6:40 PM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church. 





   

   









Bill, 

Next question: What sort of agnostic is one? 

--ED 

  

Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief
that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities
exist. It is a broader view than weak agnosticism,
which states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but
not necessarily unknowable. 

Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological
grounds that humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know
about anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is
that this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively 
supernatural
beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some knowledge of the
nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural world can be explained
by science, the defining feature of any deity must be supernatural. 

Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief
(depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it
may be reconciled with theism (as in fideism) or weak
atheism (as in agnostic atheism).
However, it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism,
as strong atheism makes a positive assertion that God does not exist, without
the possibility that God may exist and just be unknowable. 

The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as
militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you
don't either. 





 







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database 5539 (20101017) __



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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





 





 



  







[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED



Anthony,

karma: the effects of a person's actions that determine his destiny in
his next incarnation

truth: a fact that has been verified

I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true conceptions
or not.


--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution?

 Anthony








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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


Anthony,

Skeptic or agnostic with respect to what conceptions:

God, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic-God, rebirth, karma, after-life, other
dimensions of existence like heaveny worlds and hell worlds,
non-physical entities like angels, ... ?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 According to Google,
 Sceptic: doubter close to non-believer.
 Agnostic: doubter not believing or non-believing.

 Based on the definition, are you the former or the latter?

 Anthony








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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


Anthony,

As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill
both.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED/Bill,

 In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I
know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I
stand on a precipice, I had better know better.

 Anthony






[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED




To Stalin, a million of anything were just a statistic.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Stalin says, 'one agnostic shakes the world, but a million agnostics
are just a statistic.'

 Anthony







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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


Bill,

Your assertions exemplify the simplicity, parsimony, clarity and
straighforwardness that one might expect from a person who has steeped
himelf in zen practice.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed,

 One is a single agnostic. Two would be a pair of agnostics. Three or
more
 would be a gaggle of agnostics.

 .Bill!








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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,

When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill?

Anthony

--- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 7:42 AM







 



  



  
  
  
Anthony,
As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED/Bill,
 
 In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I 
 don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a 
 precipice, I had better know better.
 
 Anthony

 



 





 



  







[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED




ED: do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true
conceptions
or not.

Anthony: I don't know either. But any better theory?

ED: I cannot see how anyone could hold a position different from mine.
Can you?



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 I don't know either. But any better theory? The alternatives:

 - No retribution (materialistic view). So go killing, robbing and
raping.
 - Don't do that, or God will punish you.
 - Maybe you will get away, if you have good luck. Every thing by
chance.
 - If you are destined to be lucky, you do what you like. If not,
better watch out. Nobody can change luck. Not even God.

 What is your view?

 Anthony




 Anthony,

 karma: the effects of a person's actions that determine his destiny in
 his next incarnation

 truth: a fact that has been verified

 I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true
conceptions
 or not.

 --ED



  ED,

  Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution?

  Anthony







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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED


Anthony,

Kill all discursive thinking, one female German zen master (who had the
Inka of a well-known Japanese Zen master), sugggested to me in a sesshin
Dokusan some three decades ago.

--ED

PS: She was as strict as a Prussian General, and commanded us not to
move at all - even when our noses were dripping. (Sit, Fido, sit! ;-))



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill?

 Anthony



 Anthony,
 As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road,
kill both.
 --ED


  ED/Bill,
 
  In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I
know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I
stand on a precipice, I had better know better.
 
  Anthony







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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread Kristy McClain
 
*bows*
 
I doubt they would be on the same road in the first place. Maybe Socrates and 
Nietzche.  But then, I have a lot of reading undone.  k 







--- On Sun, 10/17/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 5:42 PM


 Anthony,



As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED/Bill,
 
 In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I 
 don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a 
 precipice, I had better know better.
 
 Anthony

 







  

RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that 
wouldn’t bother me.

I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual 
laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not 
possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc…   It is possible 
to have concepts (illusions) about them.

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Bill,

 

Your statement below is contradictory:

- You know there are no spiritual truths.

- You don't know whether there are spiritual truths.

 

anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM

  

Anthony,

I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual 
truths.  

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

  


ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM

  



Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony

 



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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

I believe it is all three.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 10:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  



truth: a fact that has been verified; a conformity to reality or
actuality;

knowledge: cognition - the psychological result of perception and
learning and reasoning

belief: any cognitive content held as true

Bill,

There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS!

Is this a personal truth, a universal truth, or the truth according to
zen?

Thanks,

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ,
billsm...@... wrote:

 There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS!

 Bill!





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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-17 Thread ED



Anthony,

Let go of discursive thinking, one female German zen master (who had the
Inka of a well-known Japanese Zen master), sugggested to me in Dokusan
at a sesshin, some three decades ago.

--ED

PS: She was as strict as a Prussian General, and commanded us not to
move at all - even when our noses were dripping. (Sit, Fido, sit! ;-))



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=COpz7W_9t_1WbLz5RJUliq_25tenENt3ZHTirGX57q\
n1uVihMoEt2awOHq3XlzuHoa9-vBRdaIKal8D4AdSB63g , Anthony Wu wu...@...
wrote:

 ED,

 When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill?

 Anthony



 Anthony,
 As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road,
kill both.
 --ED


  ED/Bill,
 
  In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I
know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I
stand on a precipice, I had better know better.
 
  Anthony






RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,

That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny 
karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying 
bribes without compunction.

Anthony

--- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM







 



  



  
  
  







Mike, 

I gave you incorrect information.  The map is on the
CONTACT Page.  Click the small map on that page and a larger one will
appear with my home location marked with a red star…Bill! 

   







From:
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
billsm...@hhs1963.org

Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church. 





   

   









Mike, 

I live in the province of Phetchabun.
 See my personal website www.billsmart.com. 
There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location.  It’s a
long way from Koh Chang. 

Keep in touch.  I have no idea what
I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I’ll be, but chances
are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun. 

…Bill! 

  





From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown

Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church. 





  

 
 









Bill!, 

  

Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be
around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've
been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always end
up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you
live (if you don't mind me asking)? 

  

Mike 



  







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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread ED


Anthony,

I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and
the supernatural are concerned.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because
you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the
Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 Anthony






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,

Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. 
If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM







 



  



  
  
  



Anthony,



I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and

the supernatural are concerned.



--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:



 Bill,



 That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because

you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the

Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.



 Anthony






 





 



  







[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread ED


Anthony,

I *am* a non-believer in the Abrahmic (Jewish-Christian-Islamic)
God-conception.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be
tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will
summon a jihad.

 Anthony


 Anthony,

 I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and

 the supernatural are concerned.

 --ED


  Bill,

 

  That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star),
because

 you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the

 Party, enjoying bribes without compunction.

 

  Anthony








Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread ED


Anthony, I think not.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0\
CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=\
0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1

http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0\
CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=\
0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1

  --ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,
 Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic.
 Anthony




[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-16 Thread ED



Anthony, I think not.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3AagnosticbtnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3AagnosticbtnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3AskepticbtnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3AskepticbtnG=Search

  --ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,
 Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic.
 Anthony







RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread BillSmart
Mike,

When are you coming to Thailand, and where will you be?

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mike brown
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:38 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church.

 

  

Kristy,

 

I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall)
and the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places
(ramen, okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality
for those of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting
bowed to for ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for
sumo wrestlers who are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the
minute*, drinking in public is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling
on trains at 11pm and *safe* etc etc. And the women.. oh my god, the
women... Yep, won't be leaving any time soon (although I'm going to Bali,
India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 months!).

 

Mike

 





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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread mike brown
Bill!,
 
Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around 
the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been 
to 
Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always end up in Ko 
Chang 
- one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you 
don't mind me asking)?
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread mike brown
Kristy,

It's certainly a strange situation here regarding the US-Japanese relationship. 
Here's a country that had 2 atomic bombs dropped on it in living memory, yet 
young people go around adopting the fashion of the country that did the bombing 
(eg, wearing 'I love the USA' baseball caps etc).

My travels are purely hedonistic and have nothing to do with either Zen or my 
job (teaching English). Anything I learn on my travels regarding understanding 
women and how to chat them up will be a bonus ; )

Mike   





From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 15 October, 2010 8:02:10
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Hi Mike,

The westernized diet is the  worst export the USA has given  Japan , and the 
world.  I've heard it said, (though don't know if its true), that  Japanese 
people  envy  all things American, and work hard to adopt our lifestyle.   
Seems 
odd, as  our eating habits on  a per capia basis, has us as the fattest, most 
sedentary, with the highest chronic health complaints of  all.  Childhood 
obesity, ADD /ADHD. pre-diabetes and more  is passed onto our youth.  Japanese 
people have traditionally had among the highest life expectancy rates in the 
world.  Copying us  is simply self-destructive.    Enough on that rant..except 
to add that if what you say here is true, it is us who need to copy them.

It sounds like you have an exciting adventure coming up.  Are you travelling  
for work, or is this some kind of buddhist /zen -related pilgrimage;)  Perhaps 
a  tantra-training to better enjoy all those lovely women;)  


Kristy



--- On Thu, 10/14/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 5:38 AM


  
Kristy,

I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) 
and 
the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, 
okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those 
of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for 
ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers 
who 
are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in public 
is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and *safe* 
etc 
etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving any time 
soon 
(although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 
months!).

Mike
 




  

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread ED



Could it be the influence of the cause-and-effect worldview of Buddhism
on Japanese culture versus a confident: We totally blameless
innocent-victims, they the evil ones view of reality?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Kristy,

 It's certainly a strange situation here regarding the US-Japanese
relationship.
 Here's a country that had 2 atomic bombs dropped on it in living
memory, yet
 young people go around adopting the fashion of the country that
did the bombing
 (eg, wearing 'I love the USA' baseball caps etc).

 Mike




Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread Kristy McClain
Hi Mike,







 
It's certainly a strange situation here regarding the US-Japanese relationship. 
Here's a country that had 2 atomic bombs dropped on it in living memory, yet 
young people go around adopting the fashion of the country that did the bombing 
(eg, wearing 'I love the USA' baseball caps etc).
 
Yep-- very couner-intuitive from that perspective.
 
My travels are purely hedonistic and have nothing to do with either Zen or my 
job (teaching English). Anything I learn on my travels regarding understanding 
women and how to chat them up will be a bonus ; )
 
Well then, may your adventure yield many fruits.  Sounds fun.. 
 
Have a great weekend.. k
 
 


  

RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread BillSmart
Mike,

I live in the province of Phetchabun.  See my personal website
www.billsmart.com.  There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the
location.  It's a long way from Koh Chang.

Keep in touch.  I have no idea what I'll be doing in Feb next year, or even
where I'll be, but chances are good I'll be at my home in Phetchabun.

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mike brown
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church.

 

  

Bill!,

 

Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be
around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas).
I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always
end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts
do you live (if you don't mind me asking)?

 

Mike

 





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database 5535 (20101015) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

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database 5535 (20101015) __

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-15 Thread BillSmart
Mike,

I gave you incorrect information.  The map is on the CONTACT Page.  Click
the small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home
location marked with a red star.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church.

 

  

Mike,

I live in the province of Phetchabun.  See my personal website
www.billsmart.com.  There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the
location.  It's a long way from Koh Chang.

Keep in touch.  I have no idea what I'll be doing in Feb next year, or even
where I'll be, but chances are good I'll be at my home in Phetchabun.

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mike brown
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your
church.

 

  

Bill!,

 

Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be
around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas).
I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people.  Always
end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts
do you live (if you don't mind me asking)?

 

Mike

 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5535 (20101015) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5535 (20101015) __

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5535 (20101015) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5535 (20101015) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-14 Thread mike brown
Kristy,
 
I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) and 
the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, 
okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those 
of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for 
ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers 
who 
are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in public 
is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and *safe* 
etc 
etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving any time 
soon 
(although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 months!).
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-14 Thread Kristy McClain
Hi Mike,
 
The westernized diet is the  worst export the USA has given  Japan , and the 
world.  I've heard it said, (though don't know if its true), that  Japanese 
people  envy  all things American, and work hard to adopt our lifestyle.   
Seems odd, as  our eating habits on  a per capia basis, has us as the fattest, 
most sedentary, with the highest chronic health complaints of  all.  Childhood 
obesity, ADD /ADHD. pre-diabetes and more  is passed onto our youth.  Japanese 
people have traditionally had among the highest life expectancy rates in the 
world.  Copying us  is simply self-destructive.    Enough on that rant..except 
to add that if what you say here is true, it is us who need to copy them.
 
It sounds like you have an exciting adventure coming up.  Are you travelling  
for work, or is this some kind of buddhist /zen -related pilgrimage;)  Perhaps 
a  tantra-training to better enjoy all those lovely women;)  
 
Kristy
 


--- On Thu, 10/14/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 5:38 AM


  





Kristy,
 
I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) and 
the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, 
okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those 
of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for 
ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers 
who are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in 
public is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and 
*safe* etc etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving 
any time soon (although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas 
for 3 months!).
 
Mike








  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-13 Thread Kristy McClain
Hi Mike!
 
*s* So I guess you work as a tour guide?  I love your soft-sell approach.  We 
have not finalized the itinerary  as of yet, but will likely have a stop in 
Kyoto. Kyoto  is coincidentally the name of a truly outstanding Japanese 
restaurant where I live. Given your description, perhaps I should skip the 
bath-houses  there? 
 
Sadly, the vending machines and the shift in  traditional diet there can be 
blamed on  the USA and western influences.  The native Japanese diet is among 
the healthiest on the planet.  Emphasis on fish, sea vegetables and so on, 
enabled the people there to live long and productive lives.  Trust McDonald's 
to end a thousand-year tradition..
 
I remember watching a video of a Japanese zen monastary.  The winter months 
there appeared brutal indeed. Their only reprieve was a bedtime drink of rice 
wine to warm their weary bones.
 
As you have children-- how are they adapting to life, school, language and 
culture there?
 
Kristy
 
 


--- On Mon, 10/11/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 7:38 PM


  





Kristy,
 
Japan in January will be bitterly cold, but then again each season has its own 
atmosphere and charm. Which city will you be visiting? I live in Kyoto and work 
in Nara. Although I'm getting more used to living here every passing year (this 
is my sixth), it still feels like 'Lost in Translation'. If you want your house 
to really feel like the genuine Japan, just include a vending machine on each 
wall and a drunken salaryman being sick in the garden. 
 
Mike








  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-11 Thread mike brown
Kristy,
 
Japan in January will be bitterly cold, but then again each season has its own 
atmosphere and charm. Which city will you be visiting? I live in Kyoto and work 
in Nara. Although I'm getting more used to living here every passing year (this 
is my sixth), it still feels like 'Lost in Translation'. If you want your house 
to really feel like the genuine Japan, just include a vending machine on each 
wall and a drunken salaryman being sick in the garden. 

 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-10 Thread Kristy McClain


--- On Wed, 10/6/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 4:19 AM


  Good Morning Mike,
 
Sorry this is delayed~~ I've been away, and haven't read mail.  Haven't even 
been on a cushion in three days (which is  a long time for me). 
 
I just wanted to comment that I didn't know you lived in Japan.  How 
delightful:)  My partner and I will be there in January.  He has been asked to 
consult on a few pediatric neuro-surgical cases, and I will be teaching  a few 
yoga and mindful awareness classes.
 
I wish we were going to be there in the spring~~ we bought a home recently, and 
my love of Japanese design has  me busy planning a Japanese garden with 
adjacent  zendo /tea room;)
 
Thanks for all your great comments--
 
Be well..
 
Kristy







Kristy,
 
I think I'm much more like your dad - I like the description 'gender-blind' : 
) I also have a daughter (and 2 sons) and have always encouraged her in any 
endeavour she wishes to undertake. Gender is not a consideration. I also agree 
regarding the differences between the sexes and liking it. I think that's a 
large part of my liking life here in Japan. The women here are so relaxed about 
he different roles the genders take compared to the uptightness in the west. 
Vive la difference! 

Mike




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:17:59
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Hi Mike,
 
in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off 
guard with this.  I suspect you  have a good point, though I have always 
thought of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities.  I actually 
have a great sense of  humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend  
or family.   But I am not active in the feminist  issues, per se.  
 
On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant.  Its 
been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i 
questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes.  Our society has evolved in a 
patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by 
definition the fault of men.  There is an element of men-haters there as a 
result.
 
I have a different perspective.  My dad is gender-blind.  He could not conceive 
that a daughter of his could not do anything she  decided to do.  The idea of a 
glass ceiling is  foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in   that 
sense.  I didn't feel I needed to prove' something.  When I  started working, 
I never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy 
for me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary.
 
One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a  
negative influence on men.  Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment 
groups and  thought, has led to a plethora of books  and media  that called for 
men to discover their 'feminine' side.  It became  politically incorrect to 
follow any of  the tradional norms.  Men  became femininized.  At least on the 
surface and in behavior.  Laws were passed to insure this.  
 
I personally like having two genders.  I don't understand the drive 
to homogenize us so  that we are all equal and neutral.  We aren't We're simply 
different.  That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. 
Better or worse.  We're simply different.  We should celebrate that.  Each 
offering  what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with 
each other  what we each bring to the table.  Men as men.  Women as women.  Not 
stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women  can be astro-physcisits, or any 
combination in between.  
 
I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor.  
If so, thats sad.  Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. 
 
But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;)
 
Kristy


--- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM


  



Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Mayka,

I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being offended 
as 
though that settles the argument or ends it.

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike:

There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're 
raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group of 
friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before there 
was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression 
comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is going 
to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
behaviour, agression etc, etc.  




--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44


  
Mayka,

I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem 
is 
that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during 
the 
pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people 
will always label assertion as 'agressive'.

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Mike:
 
In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
temperament, 
I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed.  The 
same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard work to 
tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  hard work 
done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is 
not 
the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes with a 
knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing 
someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on 
the floor will be very silly .
 
However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart 
from 
the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by 
the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  Even if 
the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have 
been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different christian 
denominations are notorious through history.
 
Mayka  

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28


  
Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
recent 
demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
is 
the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
should be locked up. I'm serious.

Mike 




From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Hi Mike again:

I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
zen 
fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 


My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
his/her 
object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
necessary 
the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
makes 
even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
let 
you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
anger 
later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
soon 
one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
established power in the 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Mayka,

Don't wanna get drawn into this argument but I feel you both could have reacted 
in so many different ways than you both did. Always try to remember that 
communication by email if frought with dangers due to small nuances of 
communication being lost. I get the feeling that if you and Kristy ever met 
face 
to face you'd get on really well.

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:09:48
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34


  
Kristy,

Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but 
it seems to be a consistent theme. 


Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  
ED,

... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.

Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, 
 huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that 
atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
can 
deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
neo-nazis 
but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?



 

 



  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Kristy,

I think I'm much more like your dad - I like the description 'gender-blind' : 
) I also have a daughter (and 2 sons) and have always encouraged her in any 
endeavour she wishes to undertake. Gender is not a consideration. I also agree 
regarding the differences between the sexes and liking it. I think that's a 
large part of my liking life here in Japan. The women here are so relaxed about 
he different roles the genders take compared to the uptightness in the west. 
Vive la difference! 

Mike




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:17:59
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Hi Mike,
 
in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off 
guard with this.  I suspect you  have a good point, though I have always 
thought 
of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities.  I actually have a 
great sense of  humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend  or 
family.   But I am not active in the feminist  issues, per se.  

 
On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant.  Its 
been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i 
questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes.  Our society has evolved in a 
patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by 
definition the fault of men.  There is an element of men-haters there as a 
result.

I have a different perspective.  My dad is gender-blind.  He could not conceive 
that a daughter of his could not do anything she  decided to do.  The idea of a 
glass ceiling is  foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in   that 
sense.  I didn't feel I needed to prove' something.  When I  started working, 
I 
never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy for 
me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary.

One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a  
negative influence on men.  Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment 
groups and  thought, has led to a plethora of books  and media  that called for 
men to discover their 'feminine' side.  It became  politically incorrect to 
follow any of  the tradional norms.  Men  became femininized.  At least on the 
surface and in behavior.  Laws were passed to insure this.  

I personally like having two genders.  I don't understand the drive 
to homogenize us so  that we are all equal and neutral.  We aren't We're simply 
different.  That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. 
Better or worse.  We're simply different.  We should celebrate that.  Each 
offering  what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with 
each 
other  what we each bring to the table.  Men as men.  Women as women.  Not 
stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women  can be astro-physcisits, or any 
combination in between.  


I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor.  
If so, thats sad.  Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. 

But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;)

Kristy


--- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM


  
Kristy,

Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but 
it seems to be a consistent theme. 


Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  
ED,

... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.

Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, 
 huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that 
atheists are ignorant 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
DP,

Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate included 
people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you say 
they were widely ridiculed in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill 
O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc? According to many polls, 
half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. 
Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were being 
ridiculed? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a follow up 
question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having their 
finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because they believe in the 
literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) as 
the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile defence 
because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war 
between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world leaders 
who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to be 
spelled out? 

Mike





From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among 
those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not happen; 
they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy in 
the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, I'm 
not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Anthony,
 
 A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the 
 point 

 I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In 
the 

 last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
 didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
 questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow 
up 

 question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. 
 Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. 
 Now 

 that's what I call a free pass. 
 
 
 Mike
  
 Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in 
literature.
 
 
 
 
 From: Anthony Wu wu...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
 
   
 Mike,
 
 I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and 
 vice 

 versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
 instances. 

 The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because 
 you 

 live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, 
 you 

 will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
 Anthony
 
 --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM
 
 
   
 Mayka,
 
 It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
 institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
 criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
 goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 

 etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 

 against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 

 think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
 scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
 bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
 cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 
   
 Hi Mike and Everyone!
  
 If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution 

 whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
 Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
towards 

 the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
 a 

 very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
 unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
 the 

 TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Anthony,

Criticism from people within religion is not the same as criticism from people 
outside religion. A belief in faith allows (some) people to indoctrinate 
children in the most evil and despicable ways (take a look at the documentary 
'Jesus Camp'). If I was to do the same thing in the name of Marxism I would be 
arrested for child abuse. You'd have to see the documentary to understand my 
point.

Mike





From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:14:39
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike,

I don't see your point. For me, a 'free pass' means you are exempt from 
something, such as criticism. I was thinking that you might be afraid of 
criticizing religion for fear of the hostile environment. Now I was shocked 
that 
you said something so strongly regarding Yehwah. It occurred to me that that is 
useful for you to act in Japan. They like what you say about the god. So good 
luck with your conversion of the Japanese to the glory of God.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:24 PM


  
Anthony,

A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point 
I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In 
the 
last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow 
up 
question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. 
Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now 
that's what I call a free pass. 


Mike
 
Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in 
literature.




From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Mike,

I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Anthony,

This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're 
talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic.

Mike





From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike,

It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered 
uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More 
than one louse. That is why Bill is there.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM


  
Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you 
meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )

Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know 
as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka



--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  
Mike,

I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and 
vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because 
you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, 
you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I 
am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
built up 
a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
pedestal.  I 
saw it for what it was.  And 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Jane,

Only if you were condenmed to remain in this forum ; )

Mike





From: Jane ch...@austin-lane.net
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 11:22:13
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
One is tempted to generalize that the nature of living is pervasive 
disappointment. 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:
 I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is 
 disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum.





  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
DP,

I'll limit myself to answering some of the more pertinent points. You say it 
would be frightening if someone with these fundemental beliefs was ever 
nominated. But they have been (ie, Reagan, as already mentioned) and also Bush 
advocates for the inclusion of creationism in public schools. Bush snr. has 
even 
been quoted as saying that atheists should be denied citizenship! You also say 
that people who think religion should be completely removed from politics are 
just trolling. Doesn't that make the framers of the US Constitution the 
ultimate trolls with their insistence on the separation of powers?

Mike


 




From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:26:04
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate included 
 people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you say 
 they were widely ridiculed in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill 
 O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc?

Well, where did you see it? I know the Daily Show mocked it almost immediately.
As far as I know, none of the above conservative commentators disbelieve 
evolution. They are not wont to criticize other Republicans - but that has 
nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. (The 
conservatives *were* quick to criticize Obama' religious beliefs, BTW)

According to many polls, 
 half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years 
 old. 

 Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were 
 being 

 ridiculed? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a follow up 
 question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having their 
 finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because they believe 
 in 
the 

 literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) as 
 the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile defence 
 because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war 
 between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world 
leaders 

 who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to be 
 spelled out?     
 
 Mike
 
Which would be absolutely terrifying if any of them actually were nominated. 
I'm not saying that anyone should get a free pass for their beliefs. What I 
am 
saying is that for many so-called liberals and free thinkers the opposite is 
true - anything remotely religious is automatically lumped in with the most 
extremist beliefs

These were my only points. The forum that I was on had a section specifically 
delegated for discusion of religion. And while I'm open to criticism of 
religion, it was overrun by people who actively wanted to remove religion from 
politics. In other words, trolling. It would be like a forum on stamp 
collecting 
bring dominated by anti-stamp people. 


My other point was that completely eliminating religion from politics i not 
only 
impossible but unwise, because there are people whose political convictions to 
make the world better were aided by their religiou beliefs.

 
 
 
 From: DP wookielife...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among 
 those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not 
 happen; 

 they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy 
 in 

 the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, 
 I'm 

 not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button.
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  Anthony,
  
  A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the 
point 

 
  I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. 
  In 

 the 
 
  last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
  didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
  questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a 
  follow 

 up 
 
  question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the 
  button. 

  Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. 
Now 

 
  that's what I call a free pass. 
  
  
  Mike
   
  Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in 
 literature.
  
  
  
  
  From: Anthony Wu wuasg@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
DP,

Never said I thought it was offensive, so you can't plead innocent when there 
was no charge in the first place. I understand your point/frustration if you 
were trying to discuss a specific situation or particular point about religion 
and were meet with arguments about religion in general (even tho I'd probably 
agree with those sentiments). Understood.

Mike 





From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:36:02
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

Am I jumping in on your comment to someone else? I don't care, because 
apparently being offensive isn't a crime.

In the original case that i was writing about, it was the lack of respect for 
the forum that was frustrating me. There was never any consideration that 
religious belief might sustain people in political struggles.

I just heard an interview with Ingrid Betancourt, the woman who was captured by 
rebels in Colombia for six years. One of the things that sustained her was her 
religious beliefs. That's the type of thing I'd like to discuss on this forum. 
Instead I get nothing more than all religion is evil.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Mayka,
 
 I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being offended 
as 

 though that settles the argument or ends it.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
 
   
 Mike:
 
 There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
 aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what 
 you're 

 raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group 
 of 

 friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before 
there 

 was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that 
 repression 

 comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is 
 going 

 to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
 behaviour, agression etc, etc.  
 
 
 
 
 --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44
 
 
   
 Mayka,
 
 I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem 
is 

 that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
 action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during 
the 

 pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some 
 people 

 will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 
   
 Mike:
  
 In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
temperament, 

 I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
 showed.  
The 

 same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard work 
 to 

 tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  hard 
work 

 done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
 situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is 
not 

 the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes with 
 a 

 knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
by someone. Allowing 

 someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death 
 on 

 the floor will be very silly .
  
 However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart 
from 

 the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed 
 by 

 the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  
Even if 

 the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would 
 have 

 been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different 
 christian 

 denominations are notorious through history.
  
 Mayka  
 
 --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28
 
 
   
 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
 aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
recent 

 demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
is 

 the head of a religious organisation that 

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread DP


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 I'll limit myself to answering some of the more pertinent points. You say it 
 would be frightening if someone with these fundemental beliefs was ever 
 nominated. But they have been (ie, Reagan, as already mentioned) and also 
 Bush 
 advocates for the inclusion of creationism in public schools. Bush snr. has 
 even 
 been quoted as saying that atheists should be denied citizenship! You also 
 say 
 that people who think religion should be completely removed from politics are 
 just trolling. Doesn't that make the framers of the US Constitution the 
 ultimate trolls with their insistence on the separation of powers?
 
 Mike
 
 

A rather bizarre comparison.i've made clear that 
1) this is a political forum that I'm talking about. A single forum.
2) There is a specific subsection devoted to religion.
3.) It has been dominated by people who have nothing better to do than 
criticize religion. that's what I mean by trolling. It's disrespectful. Nothing 
to do with with separation of church and state. (Not separation of powers, 
which refers to executive and judicial.)


As for your comments on Reagan, etc, by all means hold them up to ridicule. But 
don't for a second tell me that this is the sum total of religion, nor the only 
intersection of religion and politics.
Jimmy Carter, the most prolific churchgoing president of the past 40 years, 
shared none of these beliefs.
  
 
 
 
 
 From: DP wookielife...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:26:04
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  DP,
  
  Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate 
  included 
  people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you 
  say 
  they were widely ridiculed in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill 
  O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc?
 
 Well, where did you see it? I know the Daily Show mocked it almost 
 immediately.
 As far as I know, none of the above conservative commentators disbelieve 
 evolution. They are not wont to criticize other Republicans - but that has 
 nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. (The 
 conservatives *were* quick to criticize Obama' religious beliefs, BTW)
 
 According to many polls, 
  half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 
  years old. 
 
  Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were 
  being 
 
  ridiculed? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a 
  follow up 
  question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having 
  their 
  finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because 
  they believe in 
 the 
 
  literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) 
  as 
  the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile 
  defence 
  because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war 
  between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world 
 leaders 
 
  who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to 
  be 
  spelled out?     
  
  Mike
  
 Which would be absolutely terrifying if any of them actually were nominated. 
 I'm not saying that anyone should get a free pass for their beliefs. What I 
 am 
 saying is that for many so-called liberals and free thinkers the opposite is 
 true - anything remotely religious is automatically lumped in with the most 
 extremist beliefs
 
 These were my only points. The forum that I was on had a section specifically 
 delegated for discusion of religion. And while I'm open to criticism of 
 religion, it was overrun by people who actively wanted to remove religion 
 from 
 politics. In other words, trolling. It would be like a forum on stamp 
 collecting 
 bring dominated by anti-stamp people. 
 
 
 My other point was that completely eliminating religion from politics i not 
 only 
 impossible but unwise, because there are people whose political convictions 
 to 
 make the world better were aided by their religiou beliefs.
 
  
  
  
  From: DP wookielifeday@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22
  Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
  
    
  Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among 
  those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not 
  happen; 
 
  they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy 
  in 
 
  the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, 
  I'm 
 
  not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button.
  
  --- In 

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread DP


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Never said I thought it was offensive, so you can't plead innocent when 
 there 
 was no charge in the first place. I understand your point/frustration if you 
 were trying to discuss a specific situation or particular point about 
 religion 
 and were meet with arguments about religion in general (even tho I'd 
 probably 
 agree with those sentiments). Understood.
 
 Mike 
 

Actually, Im not sure what you claim my offense was. You addressed me, I 
responded. 
 
 
 
 
 From: DP wookielife...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:36:02
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 
 Am I jumping in on your comment to someone else? I don't care, because 
 apparently being offensive isn't a crime.
 
 In the original case that i was writing about, it was the lack of respect for 
 the forum that was frustrating me. There was never any consideration that 
 religious belief might sustain people in political struggles.
 
 I just heard an interview with Ingrid Betancourt, the woman who was captured 
 by 
 rebels in Colombia for six years. One of the things that sustained her was 
 her 
 religious beliefs. That's the type of thing I'd like to discuss on this 
 forum. 
 Instead I get nothing more than all religion is evil.
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  Mayka,
  
  I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being 
  offended 
 as 
 
  though that settles the argument or ends it.
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  
  From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
  
    
  Mike:
  
  There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
  aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This 
  what you're 
 
  raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a 
  group of 
 
  friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that 
  before 
 there 
 
  was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that 
  repression 
 
  comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is 
  going 
 
  to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
  behaviour, agression etc, etc.  
  
  
  
  
  --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
  
  
  From: mike brown uerusuboyo@
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
  church.
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44
  
  
    
  Mayka,
  
  I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the 
  problem 
 is 
 
  that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. 
  That 
  action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London 
  during 
 the 
 
  pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some 
  people 
 
  will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  
  From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
  church.
  
    
  Mike:
   
  In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
 temperament, 
 
  I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
  showed.  
 The 
 
  same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard 
  work to 
 
  tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  
  hard 
 work 
 
  done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
  situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression 
  is 
 not 
 
  the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes 
  with a 
 
  knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
 by someone. Allowing 
 
  someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down 
  death on 
 
  the floor will be very silly .
   
  However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to 
  me.  Apart 
 from 
 
  the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been 
  expulsed by 
 
  the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political 
  implications.  
 Even if 
 
  the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would 
  have 
 
  been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different 
  christian 
 
  denominations are notorious through history.
   
  Mayka  
  
  --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
  
  
  From: mike brown uerusuboyo@
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread Maria Lopez
Mike:
 
I didn't do anything to that lady to be attacked in the way she did just for a 
miss spelling over her name after writing a kind post to her.  And as for the 
rest ...no chance.
Mayka

--- On Wed, 6/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 11:11


  





Mayka,
 
Don't wanna get drawn into this argument but I feel you both could have reacted 
in so many different ways than you both did. Always try to remember that 
communication by email if frought with dangers due to small nuances of 
communication being lost. I get the feeling that if you and Kristy ever met 
face to face you'd get on really well.
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:09:48
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34


  



Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  



ED,
 
... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
 
Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  



 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
 Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
 that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
 perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
 believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
 rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
 can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
 neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
 
 
 










Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread Maria Lopez
Thank you Anthony

--- On Wed, 6/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 1:32


  








Kristy,
 
I don't think Mayka is insincere, nor did she misspell your name on purpose. It 
was a typo. Mayka is very conscientious. Please don't take offense. Or I will 
cry under my pillow. By the way you also call her Maria by mistake.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 11:45 PM


  






Maria,
 
Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were 
insincere.  Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which  is fine.  
Maria-- you do have some issues  about me.  Your behavior is inappropriate, 
beit  attachment, or passive aggresive. 
 
Your feelings  about me are yours.  But less than sly slurs  reflect on 
you. Move on..
 
Be well.. K 

--- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM


  






For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34


  



Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  



ED,
 
... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
 
Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  



 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
 Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
 that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
 perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
 believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
 rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
 can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
 neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
 
 
 











Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,
 
There is nothing profound or enigmatic. It is just language fun. There is 
always confusion in Asian languages regarding 'r' and 'l'. The Thais tend to 
pronounce everything with 'l'. You must know that, because in Japan, you must 
'rock' your door, when you go out.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 6/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 7:02 PM


  





Anthony,
 
This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're 
talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic.
 
Mike





From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered 
uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More 
than one louse. That is why Bill is there.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM


  



Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka
 
 

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  






Mike,
 
I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  



Mayka,
 
It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the 
overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 
'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-06 Thread mike brown
Anthony,

Indeed. I often get the kids to 'crap' hands while singing the ABC song.

Mike





From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 October, 2010 7:21:21
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike,

There is nothing profound or enigmatic. It is just language fun. There is 
always 
confusion in Asian languages regarding 'r' and 'l'. The Thais tend to pronounce 
everything with 'l'. You must know that, because in Japan, you must 'rock' your 
door, when you go out.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 6/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 7:02 PM


  
Anthony,

This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're 
talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic.

Mike





From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Mike,

It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered 
uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More 
than one louse. That is why Bill is there.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM


  
Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you 
meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )

Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own 
sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know 
as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka



--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  
Mike,

I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and 
vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because 
you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, 
you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established 
religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass 
from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show 

RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread BillSmart
DP and Mike,

 

I've seen faith and I think it's okay.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of DP
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:41 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com , mike
brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 You wrote: And... you just lost the thread. Godwin's Law applies equally
to 
 neo-Nazis as to Hitler.
 
 It would be more like rejecting anything German (or, say, rejecting
socialism 
 because of the name National Socialists.)
  
 Firstly, Godwin's Law refers to the inevitable reference to Hitler as a 
 fallacious attack against an opponent in an online debate. I wasn't
attacking 
 you but was merely illustrating how the mind set of an extreme racist (a 
 neo-Nazis) is something I'm gladly ignorant of.

You wrote 
However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once
believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is.
Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble
rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from
being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive.

 Furthermore, I'm not sure how I could have lost the thread when the
author 
 (Kristy) of the point I was commenting on agreed with me.
  
Then I disagree with Kristy.

Your entire attitude has been to attack a caricatured view of religion, all
the while dismissing any counter examples. I think you are proving my point
about the people on the forum I was talking about.





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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread BillSmart
Kristy,  The argument you present below is logical, therefore  I have faith it 
will solve the problem here…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:24 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Gentlemen, :)

 

Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the 
thread.  I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with 
people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a 
different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive.  I see now 
that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum.  I 
will take my own advice and  move on.  I have no problem accepting both 
atheists  and those who practice faith-based religions.  I don't think atheists 
are ignorant of faith.  That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps 
people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists 
can, and often do debate religion from an analytical  or logic perspective.  
You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring  Can't we 
all just along school  Silly me.. 

 

Kristy



--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM

  

DP,

 

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can 
deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?

 

Mike  

 


  _  


From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

My god, that is disingenuous...

Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an 
experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them.

You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's 
bad. 

It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. 
You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not 
my experience of religion, and it never will be.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com , 
mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have 
 no 
 trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
 
 You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no 
 different 
 from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive.
  
 That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have 
 said 
 I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc 
 to 
 make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well...
  
 Mike  


 





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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

 

I’m disappointed you’re disappointed with Mayka for being disappointed with 
TNH….Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

 

  


Mayka,

 

I am disappointed that you are disappointed with TNH. Though I know very little 
about it, I believe, from what the little I have heard, that TNH is better than 
many Christian establishments. But I may be wrong. Anyway, if you are fed up 
with one thing, move on to another. Don't complain.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 9:51 PM

  


Hi Mike and Everyone!

 

If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as 
irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in 
front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the 
instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 

 

 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.

 

  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.

 

Mayka

 


--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33

  

Kristy,

 

You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  


However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

 

Mike

 





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RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Kristy McClain
*chuckles* to Bill...

 

--- On Tue, 10/5/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 3:06 AM


  





Kristy,  The argument you present below is logical, therefore  I have faith it 
will solve the problem here…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:24 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  








Gentlemen, :)

 

Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the 
thread.  I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with 
people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a 
different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive.  I see now 
that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum.  I 
will take my own advice and  move on.  I have no problem accepting both 
atheists  and those who practice faith-based religions.  I don't think atheists 
are ignorant of faith.  That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps 
people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists 
can, and often do debate religion from an analytical  or logic perspective.  
You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring  Can't we 
all just along school  Silly me.. 

 

Kristy



--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM

  




DP,

 

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can 
deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?

 

Mike  

 




From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  


My god, that is disingenuous...

Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an 
experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them.

You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's 
bad. 

It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. 
You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not 
my experience of religion, and it never will be.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have 
 no 
 trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
 
 You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no 
 different 
 from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive.
  
 That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have 
 said 
 I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc 
 to 
 make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well...
  
 Mike  

 




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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
DP,

That post was addressed to Mayka so I don't know why you felt you were called 
upon on to defend the pope. 


Mike

ps, you don't have to tell me about religious people disagreeing on things. It 
usually involves them killing each other about whose god is the most peaceful.





From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:40:29
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
I am not a Catholic, nor am I a fan of the current pope, who was part of the 
mechanations to put down Liberation Theology, one of the positive thing that 
has 
come out of the Catholic Church. I feel no need to defend Ratzinger, so you are 
indeed barking up the wrong tree.

Gosh, religious people disagree on stuff! How shocking!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
 aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
 recent 

 demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
 is 

 the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
 carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
 what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
 He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! 
 He 

 should be locked up. I'm serious.
 
 Mike 
 
 
 
 
 From: maria818448 flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 Hi Mike again:
 
 I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
zen 

 fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
 
 
 My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
 criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
 his/her 

 object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
 necessary 

 the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
makes 

 even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
 critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
 let 

 you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
 anger 

 later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
soon 

 one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
 established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. 
 
 
 Mayka 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  Mayka,
  
  It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established 
  religious 

  institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass 
  from 

  criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
  goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 

 
  etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
 argument 
 
  against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 

 
  think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
  scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
  bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
institutionalised 

  cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  
  From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
  
    
  Hi Mike and Everyone!
   
  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
institution 

 
  whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, 
  Buddhist, 
Zen 

  Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a 
destructor 

 towards 
 
  the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
  a 

  very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in 
this 

  unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
the 

 
  TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
 as irrespetuos 
 
  or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in 
  front 
of 

  Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
  established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
   
   When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way 
alone 

 who 
 
  built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself 
  the 

  dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
  institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
Mayka,

I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is 
that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the 
pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people 
will always label assertion as 'agressive'.

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike:
 
In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
temperament, 
I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed.  The 
same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough hard work to 
tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all  hard work 
done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a 
situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not 
the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes with a 
knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing 
someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on 
the floor will be very silly .
 
However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart from 
the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by 
the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  Even if 
the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have 
been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different christian 
denominations are notorious through history.
 
Mayka  

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28


  
Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
recent 
demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is 
the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
should be locked up. I'm serious.

Mike 




From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Hi Mike again:

I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
zen 
fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 


My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
his/her 
object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
necessary 
the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
makes 
even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
let 
you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger 
later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
soon 
one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. 


Mayka 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Mayka,
 
 It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
 institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
 criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
 goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
 behaviours 

 etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 

 against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
 probably 

 think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
 scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
 bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
 cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
 
   
 Hi Mike and Everyone!
  
 If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution 

 whether 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
Kristy,

Thanks for the clarification. I would definitely agree with you that people of 
faith are guided by something other than facts ; )    Also, I don't think 
atheists try to disprove anything. I completely agree that faith exists - it's 
just based on bad evidence.

Mike





From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 2:23:56
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Gentlemen, :)
 
Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the 
thread.  I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with 
people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a 
different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive.  I see now 
that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum.  I 
will take my own advice and  move on.  I have no problem accepting both 
atheists  and those who practice faith-based religions.  I don't think atheists 
are ignorant of faith.  That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps 
people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists 
can, and often do debate religion from an analytical  or logic perspective.  
You 
can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring  Can't we all 
just along school  Silly me.. 

 
Kristy


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM


  
DP,

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that 
atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can 
deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
neo-nazis 
but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?

Mike  





From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
My god, that is disingenuous...

Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have 
an 
experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them.

You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's 
bad. 


It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. 
You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not 
my 
experience of religion, and it never will be.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have 
 no 

 trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
 
 You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no 
different 

 from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive.
  
 That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have 
said 

 I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester 
 etc 
to 

 make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well...
  
 Mike  



 




  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
ED,

Great article, but it's preaching to the converted in my case. I guess when you 
say slaughtered you mean the wanton killing of people for something other 
than 
pure survival and/or defence? Killing in the name of an ideology or belief is 
just pure madness and evil. And 'evilest of the evil' award would have to go to 
that psychopathic, homophobic, sadistic tyrant Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Mike 





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 4:25:20
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

Mike,
I do not contradict you.  
However, do you feel the same outrage toward Jews, Christians, the UK, US, 
Israel, etc. for their horrible slaughters of native peoples?
http://www.counterpunch.org/blum10012010.html  (Read if you choose to; don't if 
you don't)
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent 
demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is 
the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
should be locked up. I'm serious.
 
Mike 



  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
Anthony,

A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point 
I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In 
the 
last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow 
up 
question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. 
Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now 
that's what I call a free pass. 


Mike
 
Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature.




From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike,

I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up 
a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I 
saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  
Kristy,

You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  


However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I 
am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

Mike

 
 




  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )

Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka



--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  
Mike,

I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I 
am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up 
a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
pedestal.  I 
saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  
Kristy,

You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  


However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I 
am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting 
their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

Mike

 
 
 



  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread mike brown
Kristy,

Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but 
it seems to be a consistent theme. 


Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  
ED,

... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.

Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, 
 huh. 
Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
that 
atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can 
deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
neo-nazis 
but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?



 




  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Maria Lopez
Mike:
 
There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an 
aggression.  It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're 
raising is actually a very good point.  This point was discussed in a group of 
friends while I was in Spain this last July.  We were talking that before there 
was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression 
comes in a psycological way.  As soon as one expresses something that is going 
to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive 
behaviour, agression etc, etc.  
 
 

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44


  





Mayka,
 
I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is 
that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That 
action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the 
pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people 
will always label assertion as 'agressive'.
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike:
 
In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong 
temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is 
showed.  The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological.  I have enough 
hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which 
all  hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing 
into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression 
is not the way unless your life is an stake.  I mean by that if someone comes 
with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed 
by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while 
we fall down death on the floor will be very silly .
 
However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart from 
the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by 
the catholic church centuries ago.  There are political implications.  Even if 
the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have 
been the same.  Politics and religion competition between different christian 
denominations are notorious through history.
 
Mayka  
 
--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28


  



Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent 
demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is 
the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the 
carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And 
what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He 
should be locked up. I'm serious.
 
Mike 




From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  

Hi Mike again:

I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the 
zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 

My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her 
object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary 
the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and 
makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely 
and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead 
to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok 
but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something 
contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. 

Mayka 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Mayka,
 
 It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
 institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
 criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
 goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
 behaviours 
 etc. What is it 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Kristy McClain
Hi Mike,
 
in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off 
guard with this.  I suspect you  have a good point, though I have always 
thought of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities.  I actually 
have a great sense of  humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend  
or family.   But I am not active in the feminist  issues, per se.  
 
On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant.  Its 
been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i 
questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes.  Our society has evolved in a 
patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by 
definition the fault of men.  There is an element of men-haters there as a 
result.
 
I have a different perspective.  My dad is gender-blind.  He could not conceive 
that a daughter of his could not do anything she  decided to do.  The idea of a 
glass ceiling is  foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in   that 
sense.  I didn't feel I needed to prove' something.  When I  started working, 
I never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy 
for me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary.
 
One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a  
negative influence on men.  Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment 
groups and  thought, has led to a plethora of books  and media  that called for 
men to discover their 'feminine' side.  It became  politically incorrect to 
follow any of  the tradional norms.  Men  became femininized.  At least on the 
surface and in behavior.  Laws were passed to insure this.  
 
I personally like having two genders.  I don't understand the drive 
to homogenize us so  that we are all equal and neutral.  We aren't We're simply 
different.  That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. 
Better or worse.  We're simply different.  We should celebrate that.  Each 
offering  what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with 
each other  what we each bring to the table.  Men as men.  Women as women.  Not 
stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women  can be astro-physcisits, or any 
combination in between.  
 
I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor.  
If so, thats sad.  Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. 
 
But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;)
 
Kristy


--- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM


  





Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  



ED,
 
... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
 
Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  



 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
 Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
 that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
 perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
 believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
 rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
 can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
 neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
 
 
 










  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Maria Lopez
Yes Mike I meant mouse .  This is another word I always get wrong and tend to 
say mice instead of mouse. Thanks for the correction and not getting an 
offense.  
Mayka

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:28


  





Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka
 
 

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  






Mike,
 
I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  



Mayka,
 
It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the 
overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 
'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka
 

--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  



Kristy,
 
You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  

However, 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Kristy McClain
Maria,
 
Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were 
insincere.  Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which  is fine.  
Maria-- you do have some issues  about me.  Your behavior is inappropriate, 
beit  attachment, or passive aggresive. 
 
Your feelings  about me are yours.  But less than sly slurs  reflect on 
you. Move on..
 
Be well.. K 

--- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM


  








For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34


  



Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  



ED,
 
... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
 
Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  



 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
 Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
 that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
 perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
 believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
 rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
 can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
 neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
 
 
 










  

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread maria818448
Sincerely, I don't deal well with paranoid people.  And so simply let's leave 
each other alone.  Is that ok?.  Thank you. Mayka

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthypl...@... wrote:

 Maria,
  
 Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were 
 insincere.  Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which  is fine.  
 Maria-- you do have some issues  about me.  Your behavior is inappropriate, 
 beit  attachment, or passive aggresive. 
  
 Your feelings  about me are yours.  But less than sly slurs  reflect on 
 you. Move on..
  
 Be well.. K 
 
 --- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
 understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!
 
 --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34
 
 
   
 
 
 
 Kristy,
  
 Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
 severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
 but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
  
 Mike
 
  
 
 
 
 
 From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Mike,
  
 Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you 
 can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k
 
 
 --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM
 
 
   
 
 
 
 ED,
  
 ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
  
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: ED seacrofter...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 
 
 
  
 Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
  
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  DP,
  
  Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, 
  huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy 
  -  she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand 
  the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once 
  upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such 
  experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other 
  groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious 
  folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. 
  Clear?
  
  
  







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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread DP
Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among 
those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not happen; 
they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy in 
the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, I'm 
not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button.


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 Anthony,
 
 A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the 
 point 
 I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In 
 the 
 last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
 didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
 questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow 
 up 
 question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. 
 Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. 
 Now 
 that's what I call a free pass. 
 
 
 Mike
  
 Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in 
 literature.
 
 
 
 
 From: Anthony Wu wu...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 
   
 Mike,
 
 I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and 
 vice 
 versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
 instances. 
 The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because 
 you 
 live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, 
 you 
 will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
 Anthony
 
 --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM
 
 
   
 Mayka,
 
 It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
 institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
 criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
 goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
 behaviours 
 etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
 argument 
 against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
 probably 
 think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
 scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
 bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
 cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Maria Lopez flordel...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 
   
 Hi Mike and Everyone!
  
 If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution 
 whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
 Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor 
 towards 
 the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound 
 a 
 very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
 unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in 
 the 
 TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
 as irrespetuos 
 or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
 Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
 established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
  
  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way 
 alone who 
 built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
 dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
 institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself 
 I am 
 now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
 the 
 walk of zen buddhism.
  
   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
 built up 
 a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
 positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a 
 pedestal.  I 
 saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and 
 never 
 the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
  
 Mayka
 
 
 --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
 
 
   
 

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread DP


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 That post was addressed to Mayka so I don't know why you felt you were called 
 upon on to defend the pope. 
 

Perhaps because you wrote (are you listening DP?) So yes, you did address me.


 
 Mike
 
 ps, you don't have to tell me about religious people disagreeing on things. 
 It 
 usually involves them killing each other about whose god is the most peaceful.
 
You don't need religion to have people kill each other over disagreements...

 




 
 
 
 From: DP wookielife...@...
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:40:29
 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
   
 I am not a Catholic, nor am I a fan of the current pope, who was part of the 
 mechanations to put down Liberation Theology, one of the positive thing that 
 has 
 come out of the Catholic Church. I feel no need to defend Ratzinger, so you 
 are 
 indeed barking up the wrong tree.
 
 Gosh, religious people disagree on stuff! How shocking!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
 
  Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that 
  aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The 
  recent 
 
  demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here 
  is 
 
  the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under 
  the 
  carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. 
  And 
  what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?)
  He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in 
  Germany. Wanker! He 
 
  should be locked up. I'm serious.
  
  Mike 
  
  
  
  
  From: maria818448 flordeloto@
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23
  Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
  
    
  Hi Mike again:
  
  I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from 
  the 
 zen 
 
  fourm went missed out such as this one from you. 
  
  
  My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive 
  criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to 
  his/her 
 
  object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is 
  necessary 
 
  the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism 
 makes 
 
  even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes 
  critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and 
  let 
 
  you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to 
  anger 
 
  later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as 
 soon 
 
  one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the 
  established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. 
  
  
  Mayka 
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote:
  
   Mayka,
   
   It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established 
   religious 
 
   institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass 
   from 
 
   criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
   goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
 behaviours 
 
  
   etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
  argument 
  
   against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
 probably 
 
  
   think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
   scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
   bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
 institutionalised 
 
   cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
   
   Mike
   
   
   
   
   
   From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@
   To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
   Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
  church.
   
     
   Hi Mike and Everyone!
    
   If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution 
 
  
   whether that dissapointment was in Christian, 
   Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, 
 Zen 
 
   Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  
   afterwards acts as a 
 destructor 
 
  towards 
  
   the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't 
   sound a 
 
   very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include 
   myself in 
 this 
 
   unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment 
   in 
 the 
 
  
   TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
  as irrespetuos 
  
   or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
   

RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is 
disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 5:14 PM


  





Anthony,
 
I’m disappointed you’re disappointed with Mayka for being disappointed with 
TNH….Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
 
  








Mayka,

 

I am disappointed that you are disappointed with TNH. Though I know very little 
about it, I believe, from what the little I have heard, that TNH is better than 
many Christian establishments. But I may be wrong. Anyway, if you are fed up 
with one thing, move on to another. Don't complain.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 9:51 PM

  







Hi Mike and Everyone!

 

If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 

 

 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.

 

  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.

 

Mayka

 


--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33

  




Kristy,

 

You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  


However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

 

Mike
 




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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,
 
I don't see your point. For me, a 'free pass' means you are exempt from 
something, such as criticism. I was thinking that you might be afraid of 
criticizing religion for fear of the hostile environment. Now I was shocked 
that you said something so strongly regarding Yehwah. It occurred to me that 
that is useful for you to act in Japan. They like what you say about the god. 
So good luck with your conversion of the Japanese to the glory of God.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:24 PM


  





Anthony,
 
A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point 
I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In 
the last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they 
didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow 
up question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the 
button. Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth 
etc. Now that's what I call a free pass. 
 
Mike
 
Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature.




From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  



Mayka,
 
It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the 
overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 
'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka
 

--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,
 
It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered 
uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More 
than one louse. That is why Bill is there.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM


  





Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant 
the singular 'mouse')  : )
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Anthony:
 
I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to 
speak up his mind when he has to.  He is an strong  man and not a mice. He 
doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings 
through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life.  But I don't know as 
all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own.
Mayka
 
 

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43


  






Mike,
 
I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice 
versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. 
The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you 
live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you 
will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM


  



Mayka,
 
It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the 
overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 
'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka
 

--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  



Kristy,
 
You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole 

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Anthony Wu
Kristy,
 
I don't think Mayka is insincere, nor did she misspell your name on purpose. It 
was a typo. Mayka is very conscientious. Please don't take offense. Or I will 
cry under my pillow. By the way you also call her Maria by mistake.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 11:45 PM


  








Maria,
 
Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were 
insincere.  Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which  is fine.  
Maria-- you do have some issues  about me.  Your behavior is inappropriate, 
beit  attachment, or passive aggresive. 
 
Your feelings  about me are yours.  But less than sly slurs  reflect on 
you. Move on..
 
Be well.. K 

--- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM


  






For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to 
understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!!

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34


  



Kristy,
 
Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a 
severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence 
but it seems to be a consistent theme. 
 
Mike

 




From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  






Mike,
 
Do you mean feminists here?  If so-- why?  Do you honestly believe  you can 
generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k


--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM


  



ED,
 
... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too.
 
Mike





From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  



 
Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis?  ;-)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
 
 Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
 Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
 that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
 perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
 believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
 rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
 can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
 neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
 
 
 












[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Jane
One is tempted to generalize that the nature of living is pervasive 
disappointment.  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:
 I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is 
 disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum.







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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-05 Thread Chris Austin-Lane
Are you then saying that there is a cause of pervasive disappointment?

Could a way to escape pervasive disappointment?


 Only if one has pervasive deluded expectations?



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jane ch...@... wrote:

 One is tempted to generalize that the nature of living is pervasive
 disappointment.



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote:
  I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka
 is
  disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum.





 

 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
 reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links








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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread Maria Lopez
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect 
the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka
 

--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  





Kristy,
 
You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  

However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
 
Mike








[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread DP
I'm sorry, but what is TNH?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Hi Mike and Everyone!
  
 If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, 
 Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a 
 destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then 
 it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly 
 include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a 
 great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of 
 them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show 
 themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of 
 doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who 
 carries away such violent shows. 
  
  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
 who built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself 
 the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
 institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I 
 am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
 the walk of zen buddhism.
  
   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
 built up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always 
 healthy and positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion 
 in a pedestal.  I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the 
 benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation 
 that comes with it.
  
 Mayka
  
 
 --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 Kristy,
  
 You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
 about.  
 
 However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
 who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I 
 am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting 
 their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
  
 Mike







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread ED


Hi Mayka,

Welcome to the real world of humans, whose intrinsic non-Buddha nature
(as it has evolved) is self-interest.

;-)  --ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


 Hi Mike and Everyone!
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious
institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew,
Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as
a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took
place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself.
 I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've
recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions
which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or
destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.   
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way
alone who built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused
herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness,
peaceto the institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing
this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from
which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism.I was ever
dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a
pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy
and positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a
pedestal.  I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit
from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that
comes with it.Mayka 


Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread Maria Lopez
TNH = Thich Nhat Hanh

--- On Mon, 4/10/10, DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca wrote:


From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca
Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 15:31


  



I'm sorry, but what is TNH?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Hi Mike and Everyone!
  
 If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
 institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, 
 Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a 
 destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then 
 it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly 
 include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a 
 great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of 
 them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show 
 themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity.  This harmful way of 
 doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who 
 carries away such violent shows. 
  
  When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone 
 who built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself 
 the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
 institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I 
 am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in 
 the walk of zen buddhism.
  
   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never 
 built up a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always 
 healthy and positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion 
 in a pedestal.  I saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the 
 benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation 
 that comes with it.
  
 Mayka
  
 
 --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: mike brown uerusub...@...
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
 church.
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 Kristy,
  
 You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
 about.  
 
 However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
 who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I 
 am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting 
 their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
  
 Mike









Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread mike brown
DP,
 
I like the way you wrote that the Moderator who didn't believe Jesus was the 
Son 
of God was the former Moderator.  : )
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread mike brown
DP,
 
You wrote: And... you just lost the thread. Godwin's Law applies equally to 
neo-Nazis as to Hitler.

It would be more like rejecting anything German (or, say, rejecting socialism 
because of the name National Socialists.)
 
Firstly, Godwin's Law refers to the inevitable reference to Hitler as a 
fallacious attack against an opponent in an online debate. I wasn't attacking 
you but was merely illustrating how the mind set of an extreme racist (a 
neo-Nazis) is something I'm gladly ignorant of.
Furthermore, I'm not sure how I could have lost the thread when the author 
(Kristy) of the point I was commenting on agreed with me.
 
Mike


  

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread DP
...because his 3-year term ended. Not, as you seem to be implying, because he 
was forced out.

I'm trying to be civil here, but you really do seem to be jumping to your own 
conclusions without evidence, and actively ignoring contrary evidence. This is 
exactly my frustration with people who seem to be against religion in any form.


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 I like the way you wrote that the Moderator who didn't believe Jesus was the 
 Son 
 of God was the former Moderator.  : )
  
 Mike







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread mike brown
Mayka,

It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious 
institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from 
criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours 
etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid 
argument 
against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably 
think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised 
cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

  
Hi Mike and Everyone!
 
If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution 
whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen 
Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  afterwards acts as a destructor towards 
the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a 
very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include myself in this 
unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the 
TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
as irrespetuos 
or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of 
Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions 
established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. 
 
 When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who 
built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused herself the 
dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the 
institution.  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am 
now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the 
walk of zen buddhism.
 
  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built 
up 
a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always healthy and 
positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal.  
I 
saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from it and never 
the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
church.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33


  
Kristy,

You wrote:  If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant 
about.  


However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

Mike

 



  

[Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.

2010-10-04 Thread DP


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

 DP,
  
 You wrote: And... you just lost the thread. Godwin's Law applies equally to 
 neo-Nazis as to Hitler.
 
 It would be more like rejecting anything German (or, say, rejecting 
 socialism 
 because of the name National Socialists.)
  
 Firstly, Godwin's Law refers to the inevitable reference to Hitler as a 
 fallacious attack against an opponent in an online debate. I wasn't attacking 
 you but was merely illustrating how the mind set of an extreme racist (a 
 neo-Nazis) is something I'm gladly ignorant of.

You wrote 
However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers 
who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am 
ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their 
beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.

You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being 
a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive.

 Furthermore, I'm not sure how I could have lost the thread when the author 
 (Kristy) of the point I was commenting on agreed with me.
  
Then I disagree with Kristy.

Your entire attitude has been to attack a caricatured view of religion, all the 
while dismissing any counter examples. I think you are proving my point about 
the people on the forum I was talking about.





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