Re: [Zen] Re: question time
hippy hippy shake..joe..merle Mike, Merle, A shedding of dirty clothes, the Old Man used to say; even down to your socks. He talked about awakening as being nakedness. Having nothing. Wu (Chin.). Mu (Japanese). How true. But, no embarrassment! This is original Human nakedness. Our original inheritance. And, no one to see. One Mind ...if THAT many. No Mind. Well... . What's for dinner? --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle, I think you might need a certain amount of faith when you first read this, but only if you haven't experienced it. What you'll find from a diligent practice of meditation is that awakening is a process of stripping down (losing attachments, dropping ideas and concepts of 'self' and soul etc.), rather than an acquisition and accretion of knowledge.
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
Merle, br/br/I think you might need a certain amount of faith when you first read this, but only if you haven't experienced it. What you'll find from a diligent practice of meditation is that awakening is a process of stripping down (losing attachments, dropping ideas and concepts of 'self' and soul etc.), rather than an acquisition and accretion of knowledge.br/br/Mike br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: question time
Mike, Merle, A shedding of dirty clothes, the Old Man used to say; even down to your socks. He talked about awakening as being nakedness. Having nothing. Wu (Chin.). Mu (Japanese). How true. But, no embarrassment! This is original Human nakedness. Our original inheritance. And, no one to see. One Mind ...if THAT many. No Mind. Well... . What's for dinner? --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle, I think you might need a certain amount of faith when you first read this, but only if you haven't experienced it. What you'll find from a diligent practice of meditation is that awakening is a process of stripping down (losing attachments, dropping ideas and concepts of 'self' and soul etc.), rather than an acquisition and accretion of knowledge. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
joe..rubbish he went to india... he was 36 was he not when he was crucified?.. you should know all his life story as you were once a catholic.. what the hell do you mean by no mind?..no mind then you would be brain dead... it's not reinventing the wheel.. it's evolution... who wants to follow who wants to lead?..merle Merle, We don't know which teachers or how many teachers Jesus had. Some claim he'd been to India (and back). We also don't really know what his state of mind was: had he stopped at One Mind?, or had he gone further, to No Mind (Zen Mind)? We don't know. Scriptures also are divergent about what they claim of him. The gospels were also written rather long after Jesus' death, and not by people who knew him, I think. Paul wrote some 85 years after Jesus died, for example. Talk to me/us more about Zen people and their enlightenment; we can be more clear and more sure of those cases, and those biographies. The Zen Buddhist tradition carries a reliable body of teaching and methods for awakening and its maintenance. It is not all rolling the dice, taking shots in the dark, and reinventing the wheel. That's why it's called a tradition. I think Jesus was taught by the Essenes. And maybe in India. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..well thank christ for that!..hey joe..how come christ he was enlightened..we all agree..he had no teacher...merle Merle, If it is the pit, there are no vipers there. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, I'll stay out of the discussions about Jesus' itineraries, but I THINK my 'One Mind' Joe means what I mean when I say 'integration of Buddha Nature and the Human Intellect, and by 'No Mind' Joe means just Buddha Nature... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   joe..rubbish he went to india... he was 36 was he not when he was crucified?.. you should know all his life story as you were once a catholic.. what the hell do you mean by no mind?..no mind then you would be brain dead... it's not reinventing the wheel.. it's evolution... who wants to follow who wants to lead?..merle  Merle, We don't know which teachers or how many teachers Jesus had. Some claim he'd been to India (and back). We also don't really know what his state of mind was: had he stopped at One Mind?, or had he gone further, to No Mind (Zen Mind)? We don't know. Scriptures also are divergent about what they claim of him. The gospels were also written rather long after Jesus' death, and not by people who knew him, I think. Paul wrote some 85 years after Jesus died, for example. Talk to me/us more about Zen people and their enlightenment; we can be more clear and more sure of those cases, and those biographies. The Zen Buddhist tradition carries a reliable body of teaching and methods for awakening and its maintenance. It is not all rolling the dice, taking shots in the dark, and reinventing the wheel. That's why it's called a tradition. I think Jesus was taught by the Essenes. And maybe in India. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  joe..well thank christ for that!..hey joe..how come christ he was enlightened..we all agree..he had no teacher...merle  Merle, If it is the pit, there are no vipers there. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
Merle!!br/br/I know very little about Christianity, but even I've heard
that there is very little known about his life from the age of 12 to when he
entered Jerusalem. The Silk Route was a well travelled journey by many at that
time is there is reasonable speculation he 'may' have gone (Remember - Joe only
said that others claim this). br/br/Also, here you go again attacking key
Zen terms that are not disputed in these circles. 'No mind' ('mushin' in
Japanese) is a well know idea and central to the Zen/Buddhist experience.
That's now 3 of the pillars of Buddhism that you've raged against (cause and
effect; no soul; and the illusion of mind). What exactly does Zen mean to
you?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, See?, even the basic murmurings of the Zen sect, you are unaware of. Why does it all come as a surprise to you, after so long a time? The Zen you've been looking into for decades rings pretty hollow. There is no mind. What you call mind is your SENSATION of illusions. When we are awake, there is no such stuff, and no such thing (as mind). I don't think you had been looking into Zen at all, until lately; but you have been mistakenly calling everything Zen. It is not quite correct to do that. In fact, it is very far off. Others may say otherwise, but they are only strictly correct, and not compassionate: They may be speaking from the point of view of awakening, but nonetheless for some reason they are expressing or extending no compassion whatsoever. The compassionate utterance would be instead: There is still a ways to go in your practice (to get to, and live from, No-Mind, Zen-Mind). Only a Zen Teacher can tell you this authoritatively, though. Friends can only indicate it, and recommend seeing a teacher, no matter what it takes. The No Mind of Zen is discovered, uncovered, recovered, by practice with a Zen (Buddhist) Teacher and sangha. Other schools or other teachings can bring people from scattered-mind to One Mind. But the No-Mind of Zen has not yet been dreamed of by those who stop at One Mind. There is a bit more of a way to practice in order to uncover No Mind. The miracle is that, it can be done! The transition from One Mind to No Mind is instant, sudden, like a flash of lightning. This is the Sudden of the Sudden School, the Zen School. One builds gradually in practice to One Mind: but the further dropping to No Mind, Zen Mind, happens in an instant. And it may last for weeks or months or years. It's kept up by continuous practice. WHEN you have No Mind, Zen is revealed. Zen is Never, ever, revealed in any way, before. There is no Zen except in No-Mind. You heard it here first. And you're soon to forget it again. Never mind. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what the hell do you mean by no mind?..no mind then you would be brain dead... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
joe...why are you picking on me...how do you know i was not testing you?..i can see you get worked up into a sweat..when really your answer would have been more simple..you tell me i now know nothing about zen..so...how do you really know what i have ben looking for?...do you know for sure what you have been looking for?...i have to go out now...however joe i will continue this later...merle Merle, See?, even the basic murmurings of the Zen sect, you are unaware of. Why does it all come as a surprise to you, after so long a time? The Zen you've been looking into for decades rings pretty hollow. There is no mind. What you call mind is your SENSATION of illusions. When we are awake, there is no such stuff, and no such thing (as mind). I don't think you had been looking into Zen at all, until lately; but you have been mistakenly calling everything Zen. It is not quite correct to do that. In fact, it is very far off. Others may say otherwise, but they are only strictly correct, and not compassionate: They may be speaking from the point of view of awakening, but nonetheless for some reason they are expressing or extending no compassion whatsoever. The compassionate utterance would be instead: There is still a ways to go in your practice (to get to, and live from, No-Mind, Zen-Mind). Only a Zen Teacher can tell you this authoritatively, though. Friends can only indicate it, and recommend seeing a teacher, no matter what it takes. The No Mind of Zen is discovered, uncovered, recovered, by practice with a Zen (Buddhist) Teacher and sangha. Other schools or other teachings can bring people from scattered-mind to One Mind. But the No-Mind of Zen has not yet been dreamed of by those who stop at One Mind. There is a bit more of a way to practice in order to uncover No Mind. The miracle is that, it can be done! The transition from One Mind to No Mind is instant, sudden, like a flash of lightning. This is the Sudden of the Sudden School, the Zen School. One builds gradually in practice to One Mind: but the further dropping to No Mind, Zen Mind, happens in an instant. And it may last for weeks or months or years. It's kept up by continuous practice. WHEN you have No Mind, Zen is revealed. Zen is Never, ever, revealed in any way, before. There is no Zen except in No-Mind. You heard it here first. And you're soon to forget it again. Never mind. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what the hell do you mean by no mind?..no mind then you would be brain dead...
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, Don't bother continuing this. Continue with your Practice. See a Teacher as you are able. Everything depends on that. --Joe PS I pick on you because you are my Cousin, Cousin. Because you did not know that No-Mind is the hallmark of realized Zennists. That is inexcusable, ...to a point. Now that you know, all is forgiven (even if you soon forget). Zen Mind is No-Mind! There is no other. Hail... . :-| Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...why are you picking on me...how do you know i was not testing you?..i can see you get worked up into a sweat..when really your answer would have been more simple..you tell me i now know nothing about zen..so...how do you really know what i have ben looking for?...do you know for sure what you have been looking for?...i have to go out now...however joe i will continue this later...merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, If you are asking about the general you, then here is the procedure: you consult your teacher, or a teacher. A teacher knows all the signs, and cannot be fooled. A teacher can also tell you how to proceed, to deepen and take care of your realization. It is a long-term process. A Zen or Zen Buddhist teacher *MUST* check your Zen realization. If you have only yourself as your lawyer, then you have a fool for a client. There is no pinnacle; there is the basement. The wine-cellar. Again, it's not heights: it's spelunking. Best, --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..question : how do you absolutely... for sure know you reached the pinnacle of awakening? you might have reached a certain point..however need to go further and deeper and longer... merle Merle, quoting: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? Atheism does not exist; Zen does. quoting: is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Not to those who have experienced it. But they must continue to practice in order to remain awake, and for their behavior to continue to be enlightened. Else, awakening becomes just a memory. --Joe Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle Merle, If you are asking about the general you, then here is the procedure: you consult your teacher, or a teacher. A teacher knows all the signs, and cannot be fooled. A teacher can also tell you how to proceed, to deepen and take care of your realization. It is a long-term process. A Zen or Zen Buddhist teacher *MUST* check your Zen realization. If you have only yourself as your lawyer, then you have a fool for a client. There is no pinnacle; there is the basement. The wine-cellar. Again, it's not heights: it's spelunking. Best, --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..question : how do you absolutely... for sure know you reached the pinnacle of awakening? you might have reached a certain point..however need to go further and deeper and longer... merle Merle, quoting: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? Atheism does not exist; Zen does. quoting: is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Not to those who have experienced it. But they must continue to practice in order to remain awake, and for their behavior to continue to be enlightened. Else, awakening becomes just a memory. --Joe
[Zen] Re: question time
Dear Merle, Our practice does not result in an acquirement. It results in a loss. When we lose all, we are in the basement. We are below the foundation of all things. It's a good place. It is the ground of our Humanity, and of all beings, and all things. There is nothing dizzying (nor claustrophobic) about it. I call it a wine-cellar because basement alone sounds spartan. It is not spartan. It is richly appointed. I was not taught this analogy, no: This is Joe talking. Many people will know what I mean, or may have used a similar analogy themselves, and can instantly recognize the meaning. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle Dear Merle, Our practice does not result in an acquirement. It results in a loss. When we lose all, we are in the basement. We are below the foundation of all things. It's a good place. It is the ground of our Humanity, and of all beings, and all things. There is nothing dizzying (nor claustrophobic) about it. I call it a wine-cellar because basement alone sounds spartan. It is not spartan. It is richly appointed. I was not taught this analogy, no: This is Joe talking. Many people will know what I mean, or may have used a similar analogy themselves, and can instantly recognize the meaning. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, If it is the pit, there are no vipers there. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
joe..well thank christ for that!..hey joe..how come christ he was enlightened..we all agree..he had no teacher...merle Merle, If it is the pit, there are no vipers there. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle and Joe, Here is some 'Cartoon Zen' that supports Joe's point below: ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe wrote: Dear Merle, Our practice does not result in an acquirement. It results in a loss. When we lose all, we are in the basement. We are below the foundation of all things. It's a good place. It is the ground of our Humanity, and of all beings, and all things. There is nothing dizzying (nor claustrophobic) about it. I call it a wine-cellar because basement alone sounds spartan. It is not spartan. It is richly appointed. I was not taught this analogy, no: This is Joe talking. Many people will know what I mean, or may have used a similar analogy themselves, and can instantly recognize the meaning. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
perfect...thank you bill...merle Merle and Joe, Here is some 'Cartoon Zen' that supports Joe's point below: ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe wrote: Dear Merle, Our practice does not result in an acquirement. It results in a loss. When we lose all, we are in the basement. We are below the foundation of all things. It's a good place. It is the ground of our Humanity, and of all beings, and all things. There is nothing dizzying (nor claustrophobic) about it. I call it a wine-cellar because basement alone sounds spartan. It is not spartan. It is richly appointed. I was not taught this analogy, no: This is Joe talking. Many people will know what I mean, or may have used a similar analogy themselves, and can instantly recognize the meaning. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle
RE: [Zen] Re: question time
LIKE!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
Merle,br/br/And yet when key Buddhist teachings are mentioned here you say, Bullshit! (cause and effect). and Give me a break (no soul). Which is it to be?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
mike... must it be a choice?... to be or not to be?... life is a compost heap .. life is but a bowl of cherries.. some sweet, some sour all too be devoured does not all have soul.? what is that at the bottom of your feet?.. goodnight.. sleep tight don't let the bedbugs bite your sole.. merle Merle, And yet when key Buddhist teachings are mentioned here you say, Bullshit! (cause and effect). and Give me a break (no soul). Which is it to be? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: question time Sent: Fri, Jun 7, 2013 11:26:19 AM perfect...thank you bill...merle Merle and Joe, Here is some 'Cartoon Zen' that supports Joe's point below: ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe wrote: Dear Merle, Our practice does not result in an acquirement. It results in a loss. When we lose all, we are in the basement. We are below the foundation of all things. It's a good place. It is the ground of our Humanity, and of all beings, and all things. There is nothing dizzying (nor claustrophobic) about it. I call it a wine-cellar because basement alone sounds spartan. It is not spartan. It is richly appointed. I was not taught this analogy, no: This is Joe talking. Many people will know what I mean, or may have used a similar analogy themselves, and can instantly recognize the meaning. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i see joe... is that what YOU were taught?..the wine- cellar scenario? there are teachers and teachers... and more teachers.. again i ask who is the teacher and who is the student? did not many a musical genius start his career in the basement to climb to the top of the dizzy heights? merle
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, We don't know which teachers or how many teachers Jesus had. Some claim he'd been to India (and back). We also don't really know what his state of mind was: had he stopped at One Mind?, or had he gone further, to No Mind (Zen Mind)? We don't know. Scriptures also are divergent about what they claim of him. The gospels were also written rather long after Jesus' death, and not by people who knew him, I think. Paul wrote some 85 years after Jesus died, for example. Talk to me/us more about Zen people and their enlightenment; we can be more clear and more sure of those cases, and those biographies. The Zen Buddhist tradition carries a reliable body of teaching and methods for awakening and its maintenance. It is not all rolling the dice, taking shots in the dark, and reinventing the wheel. That's why it's called a tradition. I think Jesus was taught by the Essenes. And maybe in India. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..well thank christ for that!..hey joe..how come christ he was enlightened..we all agree..he had no teacher...merle Merle, If it is the pit, there are no vipers there. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: dear joe..i like the basement ..i like the wine cellar however can it be called the pit?... merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
you betcha bill..enlightenment as is karma and buddha nature..they are all mis - used... as is all that human beings think or feel or do there is the original then it becomes the chinese whisper game.. of course we could run to the dictionary.. however joe blow in the street..does not believe you..all he knows is what he knows.. he ain't interested in the truth... hence the tragedy the absurdity and all i can really say is ho hum... merle Merle, My working definition of the term 'enlightenment' is The term `enlightenment' is used to describe a state in which a human has integrated and balanced his Human Nature and Buddha Nature. According to my definition enlightenment includes both direct experience (Buddha Nature) and illusions (perceptions, thoughts, etc..). I don't think that state is an illusion, but I do think the term 'enlightenment' is misused a lot and often times does refer to some imagined state of bliss or perfection. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle  Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference  between zen and atheism? is enlightenment  merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion?  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
the greeks and romans had gods...they were not wise nor good...so what definition of god do you hold to, bill?...merle Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle  Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference  between zen and atheism? is enlightenment  merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion?  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, 'God' is a mental concept, an invention of the human intellect. That makes it(he/she) an illusion in my book. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  the greeks and romans had gods...they were not wise nor good...so what definition of god do you hold to, bill?...merle  Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbuddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle àMerle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference àbetween zen and atheism?àis enlightenment àmerely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? àMerle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
bill..i see so you are an atheist?.. then you tell me there is buddha nature..again i ask what does this mean?... how does jesus christ fit into the scheme of things?...was he perfection of buddha nature?.. and if so... he says he was the son of god then was he deluded? how come the western world has been transformed by the power of christianity since the time it became an accepted religion how come atheists are not interested and accept buddhism...especially zen? merle Merle, 'God' is a mental concept, an invention of the human intellect. That makes it(he/she) an illusion in my book. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  the greeks and romans had gods...they were not wise nor good...so what definition of god do you hold to, bill?...merle  Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle  Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference  between zen and atheism? is enlightenment  merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion?  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
bill are we not god's handiwork?...then god is not separate... god runs in your veins and is part and parcel of who you are...as you say buddha nature.. how would you speak to christ if he was on this forum... what would you say: there is no god?..was christ insane when he said he was the son of god...and so what is the holy trinity?... merle Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle  Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference  between zen and atheism? is enlightenment  merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion?  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, Lots of questions! I've embedded my responses below:  bill..i see so you are an atheist?.. Yes.  then you tell me there is buddha nature..again i ask what does this mean?... And I tell you again: Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. It is not a god and is not something separate, apart or different from you.  how does jesus christ fit into the scheme of things?...was he perfection of buddha nature?.. From what I've read about Jesus I think he was an enlightened teacher. I think he expressed his enlightenment and teachings in the language and terms of Judaism, much like Buddha expressed his enlightenment and teachings n the language and terms of Hinduism. and if so... he says he was the son of god  then was he deluded? No, because I interpret the 'Son of God' to mean he was an instantiation of Buddha Nature. In other words he was enlightened. how come the western world has been transformed by the power of christianity since the time it became an  accepted religion I'm not sure what you mean by 'transformed by the power of Christianity'. I don't see that happening. I do see the Western World has been transformed by the acceptance of logic and science.  how come atheists are not interested and accept buddhism...especially zen? I don't know what you mean about 'not interested', but many atheists describe themselves as Buddhist because they see Buddhism as a philosophy and not a religion which worships a deity. Most Buddhists do worship Buddha as a deity, but most Westerners do not see Buddhism that way. I'd think atheists would be drawn to zen because zen is not a religion, does not recognize a deity and focuses on experience rather than belief or understanding. ...Bill! merle  Merle, 'God' is a mental concept, an invention of the human intellect. That makes it(he/she) an illusion in my book. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àthe greeks and romans had gods...they were not wise nor good...so what definition of god do you hold to, bill?...merle àMerle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbuddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle ÃâàMerle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference Ãâàbetween zen and atheism?Ãâàis enlightenment Ãâàmerely an illusion? or perhaps even a
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, And yet more questions...As usual my responses are embedded below: Â are we not god's handiwork? No, we are not all god's handiwork because there is no god. ...then god is not separate... god runs in your veins and is part and parcel of who you are...as you say buddha nature.. If that's how you think of 'god' then I could go with that... how would you speak to christ if he was on this forum... I'd speak to him the same way I speak to everyone else. But I doubt if he'd be asking me many questions... ;) what would you say: there is no god? Yes, I would and did say that. ..was christ insane when he said he was the son of god. I don't think so. I already addressed that in my prior post ...and so what is the holy trinity? The Holy Trinity is a mental concept, and intellectualization. Which in my book is an illusion. ...Bill! Â Merle, Another good question. Here is my working definition of 'Buddha Nature': Buddha Nature is a quality of all sentient beings. It is pure, unadulterated, holistic awareness of sensual experience. In other words it's just sight, sound, smell, taste and/or touch BEFORE you intellectualize it (perceive) by giving it a name, classification, valuation (good/bad), associations, etc... Here is Merriam-Webster Online's definition of 'God': 1: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality as creator and ruler of the universe The main differences IMO are that 'Buddha Nature' is natural and holistic (not separate from you), and 'God' is supernatural and dualistic (a separate being from you). You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature, whereas most people would say you WORSHIP God. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÂ buddha nature bill... you say no god then you say buddha nature..please clarify..thanks ... merle ÃÂ Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: question:...what is the difference ÃÂ between zen and atheism?ÃÂ is enlightenment ÃÂ merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? ÃÂ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, quoting: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? Atheism does not exist; Zen does. quoting: is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Not to those who have experienced it. But they must continue to practice in order to remain awake, and for their behavior to continue to be enlightened. Else, awakening becomes just a memory. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question time
joe..question : how do you absolutely... for sure know you reached the pinnacle of awakening? you might have reached a certain point..however need to go further and deeper and longer... merle Merle, quoting: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? Atheism does not exist; Zen does. quoting: is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Not to those who have experienced it. But they must continue to practice in order to remain awake, and for their behavior to continue to be enlightened. Else, awakening becomes just a memory. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion?
[Zen] Re: question time
Merle, Good question... The terms 'zen' and 'atheism' are not the same classes of things. My current working definition of 'zen' (not Zen Buddhism) is: Zen is a human practice that assists in balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. It does so by employing a variety of teaching techniques that are used to temporarily halt intellectual processes (Human Nature) which can obscure Buddha Nature. After an initial awareness of Buddha Nature zen practice consists of re-integrating Human Nature and balancing it with Buddha Nature. Merriam-Webster Online defines 'atheism' as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity So...I would say IMO zen practice is atheistic. It would be hard to imagine a deist (someone who believes in a deity)practicing zen as I know it. There is some wiggle room here if you describe the experience of holism (Buddha Nature) as 'God', but most uses of the word 'God' or 'deity' refer to some being separate from yourself. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: question:...what is the difference between zen and atheism? is enlightenment merely an illusion? or perhaps even a delusion? Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: : question..some feed back..i note people do only think of themselves
good on ya cousin joe..love ya..merle We're WITH ya!, dear sister. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: meaning?,,,merle Preaching to the choir, Merle, and perching on our same branch. --Joe
[Zen] Re: question
Such has happened . remember the Kosovo war ? The leader of the ethnic albanian - a big lie - Kosovo liberation army, promoted by US administration, Hakim Thaci, was said by Serbian propaganda to have killed hundreds of Serbs native to Kosovo while extracting vital organs such as kidneys and heart . which were traded to the US the UK France, Israel madeleine Albright never got tired to claim each and every hill in the Kosovo were mass graves of poor ethnic Albaniansin fact same were simply mounds, and others indeed mass graves of Serbs killed by the KLA squads. Thus the Serbian propaganda was right and Albright was wrong. KLA was drug traffickers, active in trade of body parts, and of children and woman for prostitution. .
[Zen] Re: : question..some feed back..i note people do only think of themselves
Preaching to the choir, Merle, and perching on our same branch. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: it was murdered for the body parts...it is illegal.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: question
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what would you do: if you were waiting on operating table for a heart transplant ..and you were offered an illegal body part from africa.. What would you do? where it is big business to kill people and trade in body parts? here we have folk in fear of their lives..in parts of the world. and we monkeys are sitting cross - legged..zenning ourselves. jesus are we not wankers? Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 http://www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 If you view yourself as a wanker, so what?
[Zen] Re: question
Joe, The reason why is to be found in Evolutionary Psychology. - ED PS: Definition: Evolutionary psychology (EP) explains psychological traitssuch as memory, perception, or languageas adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary\ _psychologyrct=jsa=Xei=OFAEUNTOOoWVrAH48Y2xDAved=0CDMQngkwAAq=evolu\ tionary+psychologyusg=AFQjCNF8DjVHYG6oCUgV4xY3yg5CiGyfhg --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Ed, Hmm; is that not one of the questions Buddha refused to answer? That group of four questions posed to him has a name, collectively. I will write it here when I remember it. ;-) Maybe the answer to your question has something to do with forgetting. --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Buddhists repeat this statement over and over again, but do they understand *why* this is the case? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=ZxfSB8Ife3JZz96ehtE\ XBDbzBSGvbL53ciiGkJ81pNEL9yUdr_wkfT4P9_6I09OzaJg6BLWlqy-J8zEabXgdMO_7ww , Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Ignorance, Hatred, and Greed rise endlessly. We don't need to go far outside our skin to find them. --Joe
Re: [Zen] Re: question
Joe's Buddhist master seems to: http://dharmaflower.net/_collection/dharmawheel.pdf This can all be said in shorter simpler ways, but then it offers less to grasp. ;) K On 7/16/2012 1:13 PM, ED wrote: Buddhists repeat this statement over and over again, but do they understand *why* this is the case? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Ignorance, Hatred, and Greed rise endlessly. We don't need to go far outside our skin to find them. --Joe
[Zen] Re: question
Fascinating!, Ed. Thank you very kindly for bringing this in. I'll look into it. A few years ago (22, already?) I was fascinated and challenged by a controversial book of Julian Jaynes, THE ORIGIN OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BICAMERAL MIND (1976). Does that book touch on EP, to your mind? This (EP) should get at areas I worked in even as a Western Philosopher: Metaphysics was my area, and Philosophy of Mind (I'm one of the Wittgenstein-ians, perhaps, who feel that the function of Philosophy is to make our ideas clear; but I think there can also be some insights gained. It sense there may be more insights in EP). Around this time (1970s) the area of Philosophical Psychology was growing-up, and I began to delve there for some insights, and perhaps to make some contribution. It certainly helped to round-out somewhat the merely meta-study that is Philosophy. Then I met my Shihfu, and intensive Ch'an practice changed my plans. At the University of Arizona here in town, a program in Consciousness Studies with the Philosophy department is very strong and renowned. I have paid it very little attention, but might touch base there when they begin their colloquia again this September. Causes and Conditions, you know; the time may be right (or it might be too much like Work). Thanks again, --Joe ED seacrofter001@... wrote: The reason why is to be found in Evolutionary Psychology. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: question
If I were, I could afford a proofreader! *L* Always a bit wabi-sabi these quick reflections... On 7/16/2012 2:29 PM, Joe wrote: Kris, I knew all along that you had to be an Attorney. ;-) --Joe PS Saying what you say below, I know you'll like Bierce's definition of Gravitation (I take his entry on Telescope a little personally, though; ;-\ but I agree about the blessedness of the lack of a ring-tone. Ha, he did not know about radio-telescopes, in 1910). Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Translation: Reason is found in reasoning that there are reasons, [snip]
[Zen] Re: question
Ed, Here I am responding to my own post, but I said I would. ;-) Well, I had that one wrong. Of course this was not one of the questions Buddha remained mute on. By the way, those four questions, and the several variations on them within each question, making fourteen questions in all, are referred to collectively as: the Avyakrita. T.R.V. Murti has a good section about them in his book, THE CENTRAL PHILOSOPHY OF BUDDHISM: A STUDY OF THE MADHYAMIKA SYSTEM (1955). All of his Chapter Two!: The Silence of the Buddha and the Beginnings of the Dialectic. -- Joe Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Hmm; is that not one of the questions Buddha refused to answer? That group of four questions posed to him has a name, collectively. I will write it here when I remember it. ;-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [Zen] Re: question
don't you care ed? do you realize people are getting mutilated as we speak for their body parts? and fat westerners and other fat over stuffed folk with plenty of loot will taken them... what would i do? i have no money for starters...it is illegal in aust. ..but elsewhere in the world you can bet it is running at top speed a dollar will buy your life and money speaks across all languages and all the good intentions of folk go bye the bye those who are immersed in their own self preservation would do anything to see they live.. what would i do with loads of money . ... i'll leave you guessing wankers..are those folk who think of no.1 only... and care nothing of others reptilian brains...and there are plenty of them out there... otherwise we'd be living in an earthly paradise merle --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what would you do: if you were waiting on operating table for a heart transplant ..and you were offered an illegal body part from africa.. What would you do? where it is big business to kill people and trade in body parts? here we have folk in fear of their lives..in parts of the world. and we monkeys are sitting cross - legged..zenning ourselves. jesus are we not wankers? Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 If you view yourself as a wanker, so what?
Re: [Zen] Re: question
good one joe...! merle Buddhists repeat this statement over and over again, but do they understand *why* this is the case? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Ignorance, Hatred, and Greed rise endlessly. We don't need to go far outside our skin to find them. --Joe
Re: [Zen] Re: : question..some feed back..i note people do only think of themselves
meaning?,,,merle Preaching to the choir, Merle, and perching on our same branch. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: it was murdered for the body parts...it is illegal..
[Zen] Re: : question..some feed back..i note people do only think of themselves
We're WITH ya!, dear sister. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: meaning?,,,merle Preaching to the choir, Merle, and perching on our same branch. --Joe Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Question?
Dear Jody; Living in the Here and the Now is one of the core teachings in all Zen traditions. Craving and ambition are considered causes os suffering. But saying this is not enough and you'll need to experience that by yourself. No teaching can be learnt unless there is an insight understanding about it. The only way to do this is by practicing, working on it. When we talk about anchoring the mind in the present moment it means that the body and mind are together and not separated. Have you noticed that quite often we are with our body in one place and the mind somewhere else?. With the help of conscious breathing we bring the mind to the body. This is the first and key step of living the present momnent. TNH kept repeating himself through the years; The Buddha taught that the past is already gone and the future has notyet come; THAT WE FIND LIFE IN WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW. To dwell in the present is truly TO RETURN TO LIFE. I'd like to tell you that the practice of the present moment is not an easy one. If I pay attention to myself I can see that I have an indisciplened mind, wandering from one place to another, never finding satisfation with anythingOf course a mind like this gets very tired and irritated. When tireness is at its high peak, I'm lucky enough having found the key that open the gate of MIND RESTORATION. I stop everything I'm doing. I sit down and breathe in awareness. In this way I bring my mind to present moment. The mind gets rebelious when I do this and keep complaining and complaining. I listen to all its complains, sorrows, despair...A sensation of compassion starts to invade me. I smile to my mind and take good care of it. I observe everything that is going on in the mind and in the body...After a while my breath goes deep and slow. Then calm...It's a really incredible miracolous founding this practice of the Present Moment. The practice of the present moment is a very deep practice that grows its insight and energy with time. The present moment is me and you, and Bill, Edgar, Mike, Chris, Anthony, Margie...The present moment is our ship. We are the captains of our own ship. We let oneselves go in the flow beyond space and time. Good luck with your practice Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jody W. Ianuzzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Blesses Buddha responded: They do not trouble over the past, Nor do they crave for any future, They live just with what is present, Therefore are their looks so serene! I understand this and I understand how important it is to practice. By letting go of the past it is possible to let go of so much that bothers us. My question is: if you don't crave for a future then how do you have goals and aspirations? JODY Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
