RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread BillSmart
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread Anthony Wu
: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM Anthony, I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread BillSmart
Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:02 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to switch to the first

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including suffering. Once

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action cannot be my

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu -  A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog That's not funny, that's sick. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
billsm...@... OUCH! What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 So, what were your Zen qualifications again? You read some books? You visited some temples? Reading zen books was always a great pleasure for me. There are lots of great zen books, the older ones seem to be the best, IMHO, though I have not been reading a lot of them in the past ten

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that causes Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms. I can relate to that, because

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
Chris, But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:54 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions.

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Edgar Owen Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. That is kind of

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 I practiced zazen at the zen temples of New York City, Miami (now gone), Madrid, Paris, and Rome. In Paris, I had the great privilege to go there on several occasions at the temple of Taisen Deshimaru. ...it really looked like a very living (and positive) community. ...I cannot

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 accountability is important to me and I think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally subjective bullshit. To whom should we be accountable? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
You're funny! fitness4u2163 wrote: That is kind of limited. What happens when you get old and did not save any money your entire life? What is Buddha Nature going to tell you? Rob a bank? Pull a pension out of your ass?? Buddha Nature is over-rated and I think that Zen needs to grow up and

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:22 PM Anthony, I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life? I can absolutely

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
...@att.net wrote: From: cid830 summitj...@att.net Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Al,   If you talk like that to a mahayana fan, he will be very upset. But it will be another thing, if you ask him to walk the talk.   Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen
and nurse ( I can't remember her name and the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote: From: cid830 summitj...@att.net Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Ahhh...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:21 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God billsm...@... OUCH! What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning'

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Owen Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:45 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the opposite, by preparing his body

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Owen Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:11 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion are multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others impossible as they are artifacts of our existence

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Physical pain was obvious. Whether mental was also present I don't know.   Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:22 AM

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
...@att.net Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
Anthony, I respect your thoughts on this. As I said, I want to believe in karma. I do believe in the reincarnation of our life force. I think that many lives before me have brought me to this point, on the path to buddhahood. Perhaps to be experienced in this lifetime. I have done good to

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Hi Al, why do you say unfortunately? what do you have in mind? JM fitness4u2163 wrote: Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that causes Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system.

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 wrote: Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. Let's here it for generalizations! Denigrating other's beliefs and showing just how mis-guided they are makes me

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
Uerusuboyo wa nan desuka? --- On Wed, 14/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:57 PM Oops! Sorry, I forgot to include Mike

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
.   Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM OUCH! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Edgar Owen
is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread cid830
LOL! Mike, I actually paused and contemplated adding your name while typing that. I left you out on purpose, out of respect. I thought bringing Bill and JM into this nonsense was bad enough! Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
Edgar,   Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea about it.   Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread BillSmart
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread BillSmart
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Good question! My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me someday to result in a very bad

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
advanced' practitioners. Is this a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for playboys in this world, but not in a monastry, I think.   Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they illusory?   Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:14

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
is the basic tenant of Buddhism. What books have you been reading lately? ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Yes, I

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Owen Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread cid830
Al, How many zen practitioners do you know of who need to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness? What evil do you know of that any zen practioner has done? Please tell us. Or at least tell me where I can find that zen is a

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu Is this a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for playboys in this world, but not in a monastry, I think. If you have no standards (no line in the sand), then you can justify anything. That is what is going on in America today. It is call immorality.

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha nature in the foot! Care to clarify

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread cid830
Al, Who is the standard bearer? You? Who defines morality? It's easy to pick on Zen. It's harder to stand up for what you believe in. What is the correct belief system? Who shall be our moral guide? I'm still waiting for your answer. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, fitness4u2163

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Edgar Owen
] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha nature in the foot! Care to clarify

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread cid830
Hey! I resemble that remark! Someone's got to watch the house while the grown-ups are out. By the way, I don't appreciate your ambushing the Master like that. Good thing he is always at the ready and aware of his surroundings. LOL :) Thank you for posting! Chris --- In

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 at least tell me where I can find that zen is a moral system. Please post a list of the zen books you have read, the zen masters that you have studied with, and the zen temples that you have practiced at. Current Book Discussion: any Zen

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 9:09 PM Anthony, If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)   What do you think of them?   Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Of Edgar Owen Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
OUCH! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. How

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Hi Bill, It hasn't been hard to 'transcend the plane' of some of the recent discussions! :-) Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 I have read the Zen forum. Gee. That would probably result in an automatic disqualification if you were applying to be a monk at any reputable zen temple. I hope that I have not contributed anything to your mis-education. Please forgive me.

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread cid830
Maybe I can still get in to those temples that make you pay to sit. So, what were your Zen qualifications again? You read some books? You visited some temples? Now you can judge other's perceptions of Zen. What made you give up on it? What are you following now? You may have alot of knowledge

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Hi Al, What I have experienced about hurting others is that I will either get sick or get a head ache or some kind of discomfort in different levels. Many practitioners in our school can sense, transfer and eliminate karma. In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that causes

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-12 Thread BillSmart
...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Anthony Wu Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. That's what I don't agree with, as I see that there are opposing

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-12 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. I think that is New Age Zen where everything is OK. I recall reading an old zen book that

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-12 Thread Anthony Wu
...@yahoo.com wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:45 PM Anthony Wu I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-11 Thread mike brown
Hi Chris, I haven't been posting here for a while so it's good to be back to catch up with all the usual suspects! I couldn't help noticing your comment that you think Buddha-Nature is inherent in all of us. This is view that seems to contradict a fundamental tenet of Buddhism - that there is

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-10 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. That's what I don't agree with, as I see that there are opposing forces (good evil?) which are at work every day. Open the newspaper and there are people being killed and otherwise assaulted and those killers

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-10 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 Zen Master Al strikes again! I usually make my best points when I don't intend to, and people often disregard those things that I feel are the most important. I am not sure if that even qualifies as idiot savant. Current Book Discussion: any

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-10 Thread cid830
--- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@... billsm...@... wrote: From: billsm...@... billsm...@... Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:58 AM Anthony, The word 'Buddha Mind' is used to communicate something

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 1:31 AM What I believe is that we live in a dualistic world. Our minds attach to forms in a dualistic way. If you can break your attachment to this dualism and dissolve your Ego, you can get in touch

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 8:09 AM Anthony, I'm not advocating you sit on a pillow forever. Formal sitting with a teacher is a good way to learn to do zazen, but like anything else after you've learned the basics you

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am looking for. Words that ring hollow. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading!

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in two different characters? All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
Chris, You asked: Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in two different characters? My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us? If we all do indeed share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Most words are hollow. --- On Sat, 10/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:50 AM cid830 I know it may sound like I don't have a clue

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
do is justified.   Anthony --- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:00 AM Chris, You asked: Your

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread cid830
I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@... wrote: cid830 I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am looking for. Words that

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread cid830
Bill, This was actually Anthony's statement. But I like the emphasis on perspective. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Chris, You asked: Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread cid830
So true, Anthony! Especially mine! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Most words are hollow. --- On Sat, 10/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@... wrote: From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@... Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 Your annoyance is very telling! Someone so broad in his intelligence should have found a way to tame his temper by now. You wouldn't talk like that to Dogen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle. In a non- dualistic existence that can only be experienced through strict adherence to a certain belief system along with deep meditation. What you believe is duality and your solution is Christianity or Judaism or some other strict

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread Anthony Wu
] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God cid830 I don't have to rely on my faith to carry me into the promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us! That is as much a fantasy

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread cid830
What I believe is that we live in a dualistic world. Our minds attach to forms in a dualistic way. If you can break your attachment to this dualism and dissolve your Ego, you can get in touch with your True Self. I believe you can do this through daily meditation accompanied by a good belief

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread cid830
You are probably right. But you, sir, are no Dogen! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@... wrote: cid830 Your annoyance is very telling! Someone so broad in his intelligence should have found a way to tame his temper by now. You wouldn't talk like that to Dogen.

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread BillSmart
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:54 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Are you advocating that we should all just sit on a pillow until it stinks, and that is all? That is why I say no suffering

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread fitness4u2163
cid830 If you can break your attachment to this dualism and dissolve your Ego, you can get in touch with your True Self. Imaginary battle is just a substitute for the battle between good and evil. You are so totally twisted with your dualisms and cliche' phrases that you have no clue what you

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread cid830
I'm sorry for your misunderstanding, I often have a hard time conveying my point. What part of I have experienced this reality did you not understand. Your imaginary is my reality. The dualism is a fact. And many others will tell you the same thing. I have calmed my Ego in the past with deep

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-07 Thread cid830
fitness4u2163 fitness1...@... wrote: It is very seldom hard to probe the lack of depth of the folks on this list... Starting with the list's creator! Your annoyance is very telling! Someone so broad in his intelligence should have found a way to tame his temper by now. Is it the E.D.?

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-07 Thread cid830
Al, When you mentioned that it is all here, and that is it, I thought you were on to something. But then the rest of the post proves otherwise. I have experienced heaven on earth often with living in the moment, with breathing the air, with an awareness of all that's around me. I have lived

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-07 Thread cid830
] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God cid830 I don't have to rely on my faith to carry me into the promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us! That is as much

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Anthony Wu
So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely subjective depending on who the teacher is. That is basically the way the world is. Everything must be open to interpretation. The book you mention seems to

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Vince
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Vince There is way to much ambiguity for me. So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely subjective depending on who the teacher is. HO HO HO

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread cid830
: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:04:11 AM Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Vince There is way to much ambiguity for me. So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely subjective depending on who

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Vince
Excellent point, indeed. From: cid830 summitj...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:08:19 AM Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God I know you didn't ask me, but... I prefer Zen Buddhism because it is a direct way

[Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread fitness4u2163
Anthony Wu The book you mention seems to advocate blind following. What part of my description mentioned blind following? I don't even go to church. I found the discussion to be stimulating and thoughtful. How did you interpret that to mean blind following? It is very seldom hard to probe

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