Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-24 Thread Maria Lopez










Mark:
 
The form of a human being is not separated from planet earth.  You're right and 
everything is impermanent including  planet earth with all its continuous 
flowing of Miltie-different forms  life.  Humans being are another form of life 
manifested out of conditions.  There is the earth in human beings as there is 
the fire, water, air and consciousness.  I was not giving human attributes to 
earth though you seemed to perceive in that way.  When one touches the 
emptiness of the form then one sees things with the eyes of the non eyes, the 
ears of the non earsit's in that way that one sees the non separation from 
any form and non form.  
 
What you call natural disasters happened much before human beings were 
manifested on Earth I just call evolution, change, impermanence.  But disasters 
caused as a reaction of our planet earth by human beings abused to nature are 
very far of being natural disasters.  Expressing in a poetic way or with 
metaphors the suffering of the earth caused by human abuse is not giving to 
Mother Earth human attributes at all but an expression of  empathy towards 
towards planet earth.  
 
There is this really good teaching from TNH about interbeing that advices us to 
see everything in the light of interbeing. I took a cut from one of my 
geraniums and planted in a small pot.  I looked at the little pot everyday.  
The more the little cut started to grow bigger and bigger, the less soil was 
left in the pot.  The soil become the geraniums!.
 
Mayka
 
 
--- On Sat, 23/10/10, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 0:40


  




Mayka -
Over the 4 billion or so years that planet Earth has existed, life has come and 
gone many times.  This infinitesimal grain of sand we call home has been heated 
by volcanoes and dust, frozen over, slammed into by even smaller rocks, and 
poisoned with oxygen.  Each event was traumatic, and lethal to much if what 
lived here at the time.   Nature was here before all that and will be here 
after.  
Some billions of years ago, a star exploded, causing a nearby cloud of dust and 
gas to coalesce into the sun, planets, and other detritus of our solar system.  
Nature was here before all that, and will be after.  
Some 4 billion years from now, our sun will swell into a red giant star, 
killing everything on Earth; destroying all terrestrial evidence that home 
sapiens ever existed.  Nature was here before all that, and will be after.  
Giving human attributes to Nature is a serious error.  Humanity is 
impermanent.  Life comes and goes.  Stars ignite.  Stars burn out.  Nature goes 
on.  Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care.
Nature just is.  
On Oct 22, 2010 1:31 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:







Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-24 Thread Maria Lopez





Chris Wrote:
Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.
Mayka:
Indeed Chris.  Thanks.

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 2:52


  





Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care.

People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex 
enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to 
be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being 
new to us and our being unskilled drivers. 

And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. 

Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. 






RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-24 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Bad example. A better one is to compare zazen to eating your flight lice. It 
involves going to a restaurant and spend your easily earned Thai Baht. In other 
words, it requires dualistic effort at least in the beginning. Before you enjoy 
the Kau Pad Gong. So you are saying that the goal of zen is to reach 'just 
this', instead of just eating and sleeping.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 24/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 24 October, 2010, 11:04 AM


  





Anthony,
When you breathe do you have a goal?  Is it to oxygenate your blood?
You just breathe, so just BE.  Don’t over-think things.
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:22 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  








Bill,

 

I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you 
must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. 
You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep?

 

Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM

  


Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen
practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is
perfect just the way it is.

This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen
practice might have?

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  

Bill,
Can you say a little more about this matter?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Zen practice has no goals.
 Bill!

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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-24 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

Nice try, but no cigar.

Zen has no goals…so I am not saying that the ...goal of zen is to reach ‘just 
this’ [sic], instead of just eating and sleeping.

When you are eating, eating is Just THIS!  When you are sleeping, sleeping is 
Just THIS!
…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 3:27 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  
Bill,
 
Bad example. A better one is to compare zazen to eating your flight lice. It 
involves going to a restaurant and spend your easily earned Thai Baht. In other 
words, it requires dualistic effort at least in the beginning. Before you enjoy 
the Kau Pad Gong. So you are saying that the goal of zen is to reach 'just 
this', instead of just eating and sleeping.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 24/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 24 October, 2010, 11:04 AM
  
Anthony,
When you breathe do you have a goal?  Is it to oxygenate your blood?
You just breathe, so just BE.  Don’t over-think things.
…Bill!
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:22 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
  
  
Bill,
 
I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you 
must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. 
You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM 
  
Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen
practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is
perfect just the way it is.

This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen
practice might have?

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  

Bill,
Can you say a little more about this matter?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Zen practice has no goals.
 Bill!

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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread ChrisAustinLane
I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people 
and nature (despite what people might naturally think). 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 Chris -
 
 I think you've rebutted your own statement.  The separation from Nature is 
 illusion, maya, etc.
 
 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net 
 wrote:
 
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone
 
 On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:
 
Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care.
 
 People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex 
 enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, 
 to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems 
 being new to us and our being unskilled drivers.
 
 And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care.
 
 Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.
 
 
 
 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
 reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread BillSmart
Chris,

I’ll second that!  …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ChrisAustinLane
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:53 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  
I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things, people 
and nature (despite what people might naturally think). 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:
Chris -

I think you've rebutted your own statement.  The separation from Nature is 
illusion, maya, etc.
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone
On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

   Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care.
People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex 
enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to 
be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being 
new to us and our being unskilled drivers.

And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care.

Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

   Individual Email | Traditional






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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread BillSmart
Ed,  I’m not sure what else there is to say.  Zen practice is just zen
practice.  It’s not done to achieve or change anything.  Everything is
perfect just the way it is.

This statement seemed to surprise you.  What goal(s) do you think zen
practice might have?
 
…Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  

Bill,
Can you say a little more about this matter?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Zen practice has no goals.
 Bill!



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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread ED


Mark, Chris and Bill,

I fail to understand what the issue really is.  To me, reality is
reality, nature is nature, and people are people.

--ED



Definitions of reality:
* world: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to
you; his world was shattered; we live in different worlds; for them
demons were as much a part of reality as trees were * the state of
being actual or real; the reality of his situation slowly dawned on
him * the state of the world as it really is rather than as you
might want it to be; businessmen have to face harsh realities *
the quality possessed by something that is real


Definitions of nature:
* the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is
recognized; it is the nature of fire to burn; the true nature of
jealousy * a causal agent creating and controlling things in the
universe; the laws of nature; nature has seen to it that men are
stronger than women * the natural physical world including plants
and animals and landscapes etc.; they tried to preserve nature as they
found it * the complex of emotional and intellectual attributes
that determine a person's characteristic actions and reactions; it is
his nature to help others * a particular type of thing; problems
of this type are very difficult to solve; he's interested in trains
and things of that nature; matters of a personal nature




Definitions of people:
* (plural) any group of human beings (men or women or children)
collectively; old people; there were at least 200 people in the
audience * citizenry: the body of citizens of a state or country;
the Spanish people * fill with people; Stalin wanted to people
the empty steppes * members of a family line; his people have been
farmers for generations; are your people still alive? * furnish
with people; The plains are sparsely populated * multitude: the
common people generally; separate the warriors from the mass; power
to the people


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Chris,

 I'll second that!  Bill!




 I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct things,
people and nature (despite what people might naturally think).

 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane




 On Oct 22, 2010, at 20:24, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:
 Chris -

 I think you've rebutted your own statement. The separation from Nature
is illusion, maya, etc.




 On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:

  Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to
care.

 People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a
complex enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our
actual reality, to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of
our nervous systems being new to us and our being unskilled drivers.

 And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care.

 Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.





Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread ED


Bill, does the term 'zen practice' refer to zazen after one's first
experiences of kensho?

Thanks, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed, I'm not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just
zen
 practice. It's not done to achieve or change anything. Everything
is
 perfect just the way it is.

 This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen
 practice might have?

 …Bill!



 Bill,
 Can you say a little more about this matter?
 --ED


  Zen practice has no goals.
  Bill!








RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Your point is loud and clear. Everything occurs by chance. No rules. No laws. 
No physical laws either. Would you dare to jump off a cliff to defy gravity 
(excuse me for raising the taboo again). But I can come to your rescue. In zen, 
you are demanded strongly to jump into an abyss. So, just this.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 10:53 AM


  



Anthony,

Nature has no goals. Evolution has no goals. Zen practice has no goals.

Your questions are the same as the koan-like children’s ditty I paraphrased a 
couple days ago. I'll quote it here in full:

“Tell me why the stars do shine,
Tell me why the ivy twines,
Tell me why the sky’s so blue,
And I will tell you just why I love you.

Because God made the stars to shine,
Because God made the ivy twine,
Because God made the sky's so blue,
Because God made you, that's why I love you.”

I read 'because God made..' to mean 'because that's the way it is', or Just 
THIS! 

No goals, no expectations, just the way it is, Just THIS!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of 
nothing existing?

Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM


Mark said: Nature has no goals
The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and 
survival of living entities.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:

 Chris -
 
 My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was
 without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult,
 painful, and traumatic.
 
 Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature
 just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments,
 it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of
 this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature
 is.

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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I am surprised in the same way as ED is. When you practice zen everyday, you 
must have a 'goal'. When you say it is just this, then the goal is 'just this'. 
You can also say zen has a goal of no goal. Otherwise, why don't you just sleep?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:49 PM


  



Ed, I’m not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen
practice. It’s not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is
perfect just the way it is.

This statement seemed to surprise you. What goal(s) do you think zen
practice might have?

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:57 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  

Bill,
Can you say a little more about this matter?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Zen practice has no goals.
 Bill!

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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

 

Good question.

 

Most people use the term 'zen practice' to refer to the whole spectrum of
activities that include initial training, kensho, subsequent training,
etc...  This is especially the case of those that associate zen with Zen
Buddhism, and particularly Japanese Zen Buddhism.

 

I do not think of zen as an exclusive sub-set of Buddhism, such as Zen
Buddhism.  I think of Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen.

 

USUALLY (but I'll admit not always) I use the term 'zen practice' to
describe the practice of living as an DIRECT EXPRESSION of Buddha Nature.
This is not living with AWARENESS of Buddha Nature, of living your life in
ACCORDANCE with or from the PERSPECTIVE of Buddha Nature.  This means you
fundamental act of being IS Buddha Nature.  They are really not separate
things.  Being = Buddha Nature.  I know I have not been able to express this
with complete clarity, but that's the best I can do.

 

So, when I said below that 'zen has no goals', what I meant (or could
restate) is 'Buddha Nature has no goals'.  Buddha Nature just is.

 

My question to you is still valid.  I'll re-ask it, rewording it a little
for clarification:

 

'What goal(s) does your zen practice have?'

 

.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED

Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:22 PM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

 

  

 

Bill, does the term 'zen practice' refer to zazen after one's first
experiences of kensho?

Thanks, ED

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 

 Ed, I'm not sure what else there is to say. Zen practice is just zen

 practice. It's not done to achieve or change anything. Everything is

 perfect just the way it is.

 

 This statement seemed to surprise you. 

 

 .Bill! 

 

 Bill,

 Can you say a little more about this matter?

 --ED

 

  Zen practice has no goals.

  Bill!

 

 



 

 

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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-23 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

I'll respond only to my comment which was in support of one of Chris'
comments (not all of them).  His comment and my response was:

[Chris] I was arguing that reality cannot be divided into two distinct
things, people and nature...
[Bill!] I'll second that!

I support Chris' statement because of two reasons - one logical and one
alogical*:

Logically nature and people are not two different things.  People are a
subset of nature, as is everything else.  To separate people from nature is
setting up a perspective that people are in competition with or worse yet
are in opposition to nature.  A perspective such as this (as is the
perspective of many environmentalists and all conservationists) is not an
effective approach to deal with environmental issues.

Alogically* (from a zen perspective) it is just another dualistic concept.
It separates the One into Many: nature/people, self/other, good/bad,
up/down.

...Bill!

*alogical: WITHOUT logic, not bound by logic, not able to be measured by
logic [I made up this word].  Contrast with 'illogical' which means NOT
logical or the OPPOSITE of logical, which is not the meaning I want to
convey since NOT itself is a logical operator.

 

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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread BillSmart
Mayka,

I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain.  Maybe 
violent is a little over-the-top.  How about vigorous?

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

 

  


Bill:

 

Is it violent?.   What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material  of the bath I emit a 
very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the 
sound.  The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into 
the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly 
with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast 
movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon  reheating my body..  
Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that.  But I 
know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling.  That yelling is actually 
very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better.  

 

Mayka

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52

  

Actually yelling is just a violent exhale.  It would be followed by a violent 
inhale – gasping for breath.

This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

 

  


That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing 
about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a woman I should 
have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to 
dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her hand very gentle but 
very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest.  LIstening to her 
voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with her.  It's the heart 
acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient 
and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the 
heart too.

 

Mayka

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 

  



Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com  
wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with 
grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was 
delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 



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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Maria Lopez
Bill;
 
Yes definitely vigorous is a most appropriate word as the sounds in this way 
don't come out with the same sound as when awareness is not there having as a 
result a separation between breath,  body and mind.  It's in that separation 
that attachment, blockage of energy,  hysteria takes place for there is nothing 
to cuddle and take care, letting be expressed out.  
 
Mayka
 
--- On Fri, 22/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 9:31


  





Mayka,
I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain.  Maybe 
violent is a little over-the-top.  How about vigorous?
…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  








Bill:

 

Is it violent?.   What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material  of the bath I emit a 
very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the 
sound.  The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into 
the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly 
with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast 
movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon  reheating my body..  
Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that.  But I 
know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling.  That yelling is actually 
very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better.  

 

Mayka

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52

  



Actually yelling is just a violent exhale.  It would be followed by a violent 
inhale – gasping for breath.
This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  





That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing 
about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a woman I should 
have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to 
dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her hand very gentle but 
very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest.  LIstening to her 
voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with her.  It's the heart 
acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient 
and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the 
heart too.

 

Mayka

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16 

  




Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with 
grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was 
delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 


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database 5549 (20101020) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED






Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent?

Mayka,

Yelling is just what it is - yelling.

But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or
many.

Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question:

Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience
my compulsion to yell - but remain quiet.

OR:

Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their
zenist worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their
strong aversion to yells?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Mayka,

 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain.
Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous?

 Bill!




 Bill:

 Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of
getting into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the
bath I emit a very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath
going out through the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent.
However , while trying to get into the sea for a swim when its waters
are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly with strange sounds in the
awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast movements of my both legs
jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. Didn't notice if the
breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I know that in
the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually very
good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better.

 Mayka




 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a
violent inhale gasping for breath.

 This is an excellent breathing technique.

 Bill!


 That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or
overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As
a woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if
that would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have
hold her hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance
and kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her.
Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all
that sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I
wonder if they can make an statistics about the heart too.

 Mayka





Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Maria Lopez
You missed the point again.  And by the way, nature screams when something 
harms it.  Have you ever hear the earth screams yet ?The social morals and 
social behaviours created by society have nothing to do with nature.   If one 
is by the sea no one gets annoyed or disturbed by someone trying to get into 
water.
 
Mayka  
 
 
 
 
--- On Fri, 22/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 15:38


  






 
Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent?
Mayka, 
Yelling is just what it is - yelling. 
But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or many.
Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question: 
Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience my 
compulsion to yell - but remain quiet. 
OR: 
Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their zenist 
worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their strong aversion to 
yells?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Mayka,
 
 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe 
 violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous?
 
 Bill!

 
 Bill:
 
 Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
 into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a 
 very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through 
 the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get 
 into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very 
 loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast 
 movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating my body.. 
 Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that. But I 
 know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That yelling is actually 
 very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better. 
 
 Mayka

 
 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent 
 inhale gasping for breath.
 
 This is an excellent breathing technique.
 Bill!

 That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or 
 overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a 
 woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that 
 would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her hand 
 very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. 
 LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. Breathing with her. 
 It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity 
 between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an 
 statistics about the heart too.
 
 Mayka
 






Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 You missed the point again.

What point have I missed again?



 And by the way, nature screams when something harms it.

Yes, nature has every reason to scream:
Who trusted God was love indeed And love Creation's final law Tho'
Nature, red in tooth and claw With ravine, shriek'd against his creed.
  Have you ever heard the earth screams yet?

Not as distinctly or frequently as a person of advanced spiritual
evolution and profound compassion as yourself.



 The social morals and social behaviours created by society have
nothing to do with nature.

 Mayka

The *intrinsic forces that guide human behaviors are no different than
the forces in nature.

_ED





Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ChrisAustinLane
Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. 
Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, and 
a world-changing triumph. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 
 
 Mayka,
 
 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain.  Maybe 
 violent is a little over-the-top.  How about vigorous?
 
 …Bill!
 
  
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  
 
  
 
 Bill:
 
  
 
 Is it violent?.   What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
 into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material  of the bath I emit a 
 very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through 
 the sound.  The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to 
 get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell 
 very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and 
 fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon  reheating my 
 body..  Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to 
 that.  But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling.  That 
 yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body 
 better. 
 
  
 
 Mayka
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
 --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
 
 
 From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52
 
  
 
 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale.  It would be followed by a violent 
 inhale – gasping for breath.
 
 This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!
 
  
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  
 
  
 
 That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or 
 overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a 
 woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that 
 would help her to dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her 
 hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest. 
  LIstening to her voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with 
 her.  It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, 
 unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can 
 make an statistics about the heart too.
 
  
 
 Mayka
 
  
 
 --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 
 
 From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16
 
  
 
 
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone
 
 On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:
 
  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster
 
 I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
 suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the 
 article. Science is another human activity.
 
 I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work 
 with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife 
 was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
 working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
 wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
 power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time.
 
 
 
 __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
 database 5549 (20101020) __
 
 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
 http://www.eset.com
 
 __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
 database 5549 (20101020) __
 
 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
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 database 5553 (20101021) __
 
 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
 http://www.eset.com
 
 
 
 __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
 database 5553 (20101021) __
 
 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
 
 http://www.eset.com
 
 
 


Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED



Chris said: ...  giving your all for something other than your self, ...

Generally all human actions are directed toward the interests of self
and groups we identify with.

But you assert that child-birth with its blood, sweat and tears is an
exception to the universal self-centered focus of humans (and animals
and plants, etc.)?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:

Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than
vigorous. Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other
than your self, and a world-changing triumph.

Thanks,  Chris Austin-Lane


Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Mark Perew
Chris -

My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child.  This was
without medication.  The birth of our third child was the most difficult,
painful, and traumatic.

Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm.  Nature
just is.  Nature doesn't scream, it simply is.  Nature has no attachments,
it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of
this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc.  Nature
is.
On Oct 22, 2010 9:13 AM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than
vigorous. Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than
your self, and a world-changing triumph.

 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone

 On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:



 Mayka,

 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain.
Maybe violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous?

 …Bill!



 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to
meditation?





 Bill:



 Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting
into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a
very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through
the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to
get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell
very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing
and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating
my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to
that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That
yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body
better.



 Mayka







 --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
wrote:


 From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to
meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52



 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a
violent inhale – gasping for breath.

 This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!



 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to
meditation?





 That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or
overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a
woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that
would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her
hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and
kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her.
Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that
sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder
if they can make an statistics about the heart too.



 Mayka



 --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


 From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to
meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16





 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone

 On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:

  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a
disaster

 I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the
article. Science is another human activity.

 I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their
work with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my
wife was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather
loudly working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who
yelled at my wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite
the indubitable power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to
yell at that time.



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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:38, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question:

No!  That is just adding mental activity on top of the impulse to yell. 

If you are unsure about the yelling, breath, wait, and see if the right action 
becomes more obvious. 



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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED


Chris,

The higlighted portion of my post below was not intended as a
recommendation, but as a (sort-of) koan to contemplate.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:38, ED seacrofter...@...
/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pscQyGQKYgNYdW95QGPvvib_vPCqA4Bd9dv2UUBznu\
bSJ4DN_3bLYgT2Eg1rTHMrldgW3yWHzJ9kbbp3tJY  wrote:

 Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question:

No! That is just adding mental activity on top of the impulse to yell.

If you are unsure about the yelling, breath, wait, and see if the right
action
becomes more obvious.


===



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter...@... wrote:



Mayka asked: Is it [the yelling] violent?

Mayka,

Yelling is just what it is - yelling.

But yelling in public can be quite annoying and disturbing to some or
many.

Therefore the would-be yeller needs ask himself/herself the question:

Shall I apply my understanding of zen to *myself* and merely experience
my compulsion to yell - but remain quiet.

OR:

Shall I yell and provide *others* with the opportunity to practise their
zenist worldview, by their being quiet and just experiencing their
strong aversion to yells?

--ED





Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Maria Lopez
Mark:
 
Nature, Earth Scream:  This is a metaphor implying the complains of the earth 
made in the hands of human beings.  These complains of  Mother Earth manifest 
themselves in ecologic disasters.  
 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 22/10/10, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 17:44


  




Chris -
My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child.  This was 
without medication.  The birth of our third child was the most difficult, 
painful, and traumatic.  
Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm.  Nature 
just is.  Nature doesn't scream, it simply is.  Nature has no attachments, it 
simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this 
human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc.  Nature is.  
On Oct 22, 2010 9:13 AM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. 
 Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, 
 and a world-changing triumph. 
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone
 
 On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
 
 
 
 Mayka,
 
 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe 
 violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous?
 
 …Bill!
 
 
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
 
 
 
 
 Bill:
 
 
 
 Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
 into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a 
 very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through 
 the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to 
 get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell 
 very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing 
 and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating 
 my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to 
 that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That 
 yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body 
 better. 
 
 
 
 Mayka
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
 
 
 From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52
 
 
 
 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent 
 inhale – gasping for breath.
 
 This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!
 
 
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
 
 
 
 
 That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or 
 overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a 
 woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that 
 would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her 
 hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and 
 kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. 
 Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that 
 sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder 
 if they can make an statistics about the heart too.
 
 
 
 Mayka
 
 
 
 --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 
 
 From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16
 
 
 
 
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone
 
 On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:
 
  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster
 
 I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
 suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the 
 article. Science is another human activity.
 
 I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work 
 with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife 
 was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
 working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Maria Lopez
Mark:
 
How would you call then the ecological disasters caused by the abuse of 
mankind?.  Choose a different word if you feel to be more appropriate.  Mother 
Earth is alive.  Don't hearing its screams or complain or reaction to be abused 
is a different matter.  That is what is for zazen, mindfulness, awareness...  
To hear, see, smell, sense...all that we can't differently.  

Mayka
 
--- On Fri, 22/10/10, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 18:19


  



Mayka -

Nature does not complain, since nature does not have have any attachments to 
how things should be.  Nature neither accepts nor rejects what is.  Nature 
just is.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:









Mark:
 
Nature, Earth Scream:  This is a metaphor implying the complains of the earth 
made in the hands of human beings.  These complains of  Mother Earth manifest 
themselves in ecologic disasters.  
 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 22/10/10, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com 

Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 17:44 





  


Chris -
My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child.  This was 
without medication.  The birth of our third child was the most difficult, 
painful, and traumatic.  
Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm.  Nature 
just is.  Nature doesn't scream, it simply is.  Nature has no attachments, it 
simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of this 
human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc.  Nature is.  
On Oct 22, 2010 9:13 AM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 Natural childbirth of the first child is more close to violent than vigorous. 
 Blood sweat and tears, giving your all for something other than your self, 
 and a world-changing triumph. 
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone
 
 On Oct 22, 2010, at 1:31, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
 
 
 
 Mayka,
 
 I was referring to the post below which talked about yelling in pain. Maybe 
 violent is a little over-the-top. How about vigorous?
 
 …Bill!
 
 
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:37 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
 
 
 
 
 Bill:
 
 
 
 Is it violent?. What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
 into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material of the bath I emit a 
 very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through 
 the sound. The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to 
 get into the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell 
 very loudly with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing 
 and fast movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon reheating 
 my body.. Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to 
 that. But I know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling. That 
 yelling is actually very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body 
 better. 
 
 
 
 Mayka
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
 
 
 From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52
 
 
 
 Actually yelling is just a violent exhale. It would be followed by a violent 
 inhale – gasping for breath.
 
 This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!
 
 
 
 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
 Of Maria Lopez
 Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
 
 
 
 
 That sounds terrible Chris. And this is what I meant by reading or 
 overhearing about breathing but with no experience at all into that. As a 
 woman I should have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that 
 would help her to dilate better and cope her pain. I would have hold her 
 hand very gentle but very firm and talk to her with reassurance and 
 kindnest. LIstening to her voice, to her body.. Being one with her. 
 Breathing with her. It's the heart acting as the guide that brings all that 
 sensitivity, unity between a patient and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder 
 if they can make an statistics about the heart too.
 
 
 
 Mayka
 
 
 
 --- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
 
 
 From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED




Mark said:  Nature has no goals

The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the
replication and survival of living entities.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:

 Chris -

 My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This
was
 without medication. The birth of our third child was the most
difficult,
 painful, and traumatic.

 Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm.
Nature
 just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no
attachments,
 it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense
of
 this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc.
Nature
 is.



Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Anthony Wu
Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of 
nothing existing?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM


  





 
Mark said:  Nature has no goals
The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and 
survival of living entities.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:

 Chris -
 
 My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was
 without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult,
 painful, and traumatic.
 
 Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature
 just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments,
 it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of
 this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature
 is.








Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Mark Perew
Mayka -

Over the 4 billion or so years that planet Earth has existed, life has come
and gone many times.  This infinitesimal grain of sand we call home has been
heated by volcanoes and dust, frozen over, slammed into by even smaller
rocks, and poisoned with oxygen.  Each event was traumatic, and lethal to
much if what lived here at the time.   Nature was here before all that and
will be here after.

Some billions of years ago, a star exploded, causing a nearby cloud of dust
and gas to coalesce into the sun, planets, and other detritus of our solar
system.  Nature was here before all that, and will be after.

Some 4 billion years from now, our sun will swell into a red giant star,
killing everything on Earth; destroying all terrestrial evidence that home
sapiens ever existed.  Nature was here before all that, and will be after.

Giving human attributes to Nature is a serious error.  Humanity is
impermanent.  Life comes and goes.  Stars ignite.  Stars burn out.  Nature
goes on.  Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there
to care.

Nature just is.
On Oct 22, 2010 1:31 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 10:19, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nature does not complain, since nature does not have have any attachments to 
 how things should be.  Nature neither accepts nor rejects what is.  Nature 
 just is.

This division of things into nature and not-nature is something we clever 
humans do as a part of our natural thinking. 

The people around me do actually complain a certain amount, relatively 
naturally as far as I can tell. 






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

   Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to care.

People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex 
enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality, to 
be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems being 
new to us and our being unskilled drivers. 

And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care. 

Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring. 



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

Nature has no goals.  Evolution has no goals.  Zen practice has no goals.

Your questions are the same as the koan-like children’s ditty I paraphrased a 
couple days ago.  I'll quote it here in full:

“Tell me why the stars do shine,
Tell me why the ivy twines,
Tell me why the sky’s so blue,
And I will tell you just why I love you.

Because God made the stars to shine,
Because God made the ivy twine,
Because God made the sky's so blue,
Because God made you, that's why I love you.”

I read 'because God made..' to mean 'because that's the way it is', or Just 
THIS! 

No goals, no expectations, just the way it is, Just THIS!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

  
Doesn't it? Then why were you born? Why are there myriads of things, instead of 
nothing existing?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 23/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 12:51 AM
  

 
Mark said:  Nature has no goals
The one single law that nature is (in effect) driven by is the replication and 
survival of living entities.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew mpe...@... wrote:

 Chris -
 
 My first wife slept through much of the labor of our first child. This was
 without medication. The birth of our third child was the most difficult,
 painful, and traumatic.
 
 Nature does not subscribe to human rules of damage, loss, and harm. Nature
 just is. Nature doesn't scream, it simply is. Nature has no attachments,
 it simply is. Nature has no goals, no regrets, no ambitions, no sense of
 this human invention of time, no life, no non-life, no death, etc. Nature
 is.




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database 5554 (20101022) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

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database 5556 (20101022) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread Mark Perew
Chris -

I think you've rebutted your own statement.  The separation from Nature is
illusion, maya, etc.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.netwrote:



 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone

 On Oct 22, 2010, at 16:40, Mark Perew mpe...@gmail.com wrote:

Nature does not care what we do, because there is no person there to
 care.

 People are a part of nature. People are a part of nature that has a complex
 enough brain to get confused and try to live apart from our actual reality,
 to be sure, but that is a pretty natural consequence of our nervous systems
 being new to us and our being unskilled drivers.

 And some of these people do care. So parts of nature care.

 Of course, even then, there is no person to care. Just caring.

 

 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
 reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-22 Thread ED


Bill,

Can you say a little more about this matter?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Zen practice has no goals.

 Bill!



Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread Rose P
Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned 
because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to 
ponder on for the day :) 
 
And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking 
mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away 
from their context (sort of thing).
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 4:36 PM


  








Rose:
 
Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the 
experience that is in front of you.  Means to have an open mind. Means that one 
is not a narrow mind.   It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and 
ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one.   Nothing new can be learnt.  
New experiences in that way are not welcome.  It doesn't seem to me that that 
is your case.  You actually seem to be quite an open mind 
person.   If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting .  One could also  
do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting.    But it will be one 
and no one else who has to see into that.   Having a reaction with the unknown 
is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is 
that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting.
 
To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about  
because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience 
of the practice.  I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article 
backs up continusly himself/herself  with the use of science,  pompous names, 
professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his 
readers to whatever he wants to convert them.  This is called religious 
manipulation.
 
Have I answer what you were asking?. 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51


  






Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm 
a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is 
not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better 
one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, 
but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's 
something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an 
unattainable one. 
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM


  











Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21


  






This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM


  


 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy

RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread Maria Lopez
Bill:
 
Is it violent?.   What I have tried is that every time I'm about of getting 
into the bath, laying my back on the very cold material  of the bath I emit a 
very long sound with the syllable omletting the breath going out through the 
sound.  The sound here doesn't come violent. However , while trying to get into 
the sea for a swim when its waters are still cold it makes me Yell very loudly 
with strange sounds in the awareness of in/out fast breathing and fast 
movements of my both legs jumping as in a water marathon  reheating my body..  
Didn't notice if the breath was violent. I'll try to attention to that.  But I 
know that in the beach everyone can hear me yelling.  That yelling is actually 
very good because it helps me to cope and reheat my body better.  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:52


  





Actually yelling is just a violent exhale.  It would be followed by a violent 
inhale – gasping for breath.
This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  








That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing 
about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a woman I should 
have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to 
dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her hand very gentle but 
very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest.  LIstening to her 
voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with her.  It's the heart 
acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient 
and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the 
heart too.

 

Mayka

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16

  




Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with 
grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was 
delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 




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RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread Maria Lopez

Bill:
You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated.
Good point.
Mayka

--- On Thu, 21/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 1:45


  





Rose,
My understanding is the same as Mayka’s.
Being non-reactive does not mean being passive.  Popular terms that are similar 
are ‘go with the flow’ or ‘follow the Tao’.
I personally think non-reactive is actually not a good descriptive term.  You 
do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated.
…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:36 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 
  








Rose:

 

Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the 
experience that is in front of you.  Means to have an open mind. Means that one 
is not a narrow mind.   It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and 
ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one.   Nothing new can be learnt.  
New experiences in that way are not welcome.  It doesn't seem to me that that 
is your case.  You actually seem to be quite an open mind 
person.   If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting .  One could also  
do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting.    But it will be one 
and no one else who has to see into that.   Having a reaction with the unknown 
is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is 
that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting.

 

To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about  
because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience 
of the practice.  I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article 
backs up continusly himself/herself  with the use of science,  pompous names, 
professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his 
readers to whatever he wants to convert them.  This is called religious 
manipulation.

 

Have I answer what you were asking?. 

Mayka

 

 

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51

  







Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm 
a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is 
not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better 
one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, 
but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's 
something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an 
unattainable one. 

 

Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM

  












Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster

 

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21

  







This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise

 

Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM

  



 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set


October 7, 2010
By 4u Articles 


As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread Maria Lopez
Rose:
 
That point made is actually incomplete as I should have said:  When the mind 
is closed on its own ideas, preconceived concepts and so onNothing new can 
get into and nothing old can be let go out.In the same way that the of in and 
out breathing.  We breathe in a new air get into our lungs  and we breathe out 
and  let the old breathe to get out.  We don't hold onto the breath we breathe 
in and the one we let out.  If we'll be holding wouldn't be possible to 
live.   Or the waves of the sea they coming and going.  They splash over the 
object they find on their way to the rocks, the sand and then retry back to be 
just water. And new waves come doing the same over and over.   And all these is 
the natural rhythm of life.  And so is with our mind when we let it be 
opened.   
 
You are going to hear lots and lots of talking about mindfulness.  I did that 
myself in the past till I realised that I wasn't walking the talk.  So stopped 
to talk too much about mindfulness.  However, there are times in which I  have 
to talk about it.  Specially if  I see someone giving an incorrect transmission 
of this teaching.  This is my responsibility as I was given this specific 
direct teaching by TNH himself and for several times!!!.   So when I had to 
talk about it I make very clear that I'm not always a mindful person etc.  So 
in this way people don't feel too disappointed afterwards and still they can 
keep nourishing their mindfulness.  
 
The idea of practising mindfulness in a hospital is a good idea if the 
monastics from TNH were involved on it.  And even like that I'm not sure if 
would work out because it takes years of practice to keep into that kind of 
continuos concentration of what is going in and out oneselves.   
 
Anyway, one of the very first things TNH kept warning us many years ago 
was never to try to convert to anyone and instead allow the person to approach 
by himself or herself the dharma. He used to make clear that doing differently 
would have make from this dharma another religion in which one is converted 
into and that this dharma wasn't a religion but a way of living.   Real 
mindfulness doesn't need to sell itself to anyone, or make use  of scientific 
propaganda or any other kind because when a person is mindful everyone can see, 
sense, touch it.  If one wants to learn really well what is this mindfulness 
about then one has to go to the real source of this teaching and that is TNH 
and his monastics.  Attending a retreat with them.  
 
Mayka
 
 
--- On Thu, 21/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 10:26


  








Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being learned 
because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain something to 
ponder on for the day :) 
 
And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking 
mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away 
from their context (sort of thing).
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 4:36 PM


  






Rose:
 
Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the 
experience that is in front of you.  Means to have an open mind. Means that one 
is not a narrow mind.   It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and 
ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one.   Nothing new can be learnt.  
New experiences in that way are not welcome.  It doesn't seem to me that that 
is your case.  You actually seem to be quite an open mind 
person.   If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting .  One could also  
do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting.    But it will be one 
and no one else who has to see into that.   Having a reaction with the unknown 
is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is 
that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting.
 
To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about  
because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience 
of the practice.  I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article 
backs up continusly himself/herself  with the use of science,  pompous names, 
professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his 
readers to whatever he wants to convert them.  This is called religious 
manipulation.
 
Have I answer what you were asking?. 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread ED






The reactive react so that the non-reactive may better exhibit their
spontaneity. ;-)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:



You do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated.

Bill!









Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread ED



Rose,

The dualistic conception of open-mindedness/closed-mindedness is a
meaningless, illusory/delusory fixation of our religio-cultural
mind-set.

For instance, is it the Supreme Ayatollah, the Pope or the Grand Rabbi
of Yahoo groups who will infallibly pronounce on who is which
(open-minded or closed-minded) on the Zen Forum?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote:

 Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new
being learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my
brain something to ponder on for the day :)

 And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking
mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking
them away from their context (sort of thing).

 Rose





Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-21 Thread Maria Lopez
Trying to grasp something ED?
 
--- On Thu, 21/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 18:36


  




 
Rose,
The dualistic conception of open-mindedness/closed-mindedness is a 
meaningless, illusory/delusory fixation of our religio-cultural mind-set.
For instance, is it the Supreme Ayatollah, the Pope or the Grand Rabbi of Yahoo 
groups who will infallibly pronounce on who is which (open-minded or 
closed-minded) on the Zen Forum?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote:

 Mayka, I really like that point you make about really nothing new being 
 learned because of having an open mind to things. That's given my brain 
 something to ponder on for the day :) 
  
 And I do see where you're coming from with regards to science taking 
 mindfulness and meditation, stripping them right back, and taking them away 
 from their context (sort of thing).
  
 Rose
 






Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Maria Lopez
ED and all:
 
I'd like to share an experience.
 
I've been having physiotherapy for a very severe case left frozen shoulder once 
a week with no interruptions since August 2009.  My physiotherapist is 
brilliant.  We work really well together because we do that as a non separation 
from the left shoulder.  Slowly, slowly my left shoulder gains more and more 
movement.  It's a hard work we both do in togetherness.  As he can see that 
there is a very slow but very clear improvement each week I go to him, he feels 
a great encouragement to keep helping me.  He has faith in me and I have faith 
in his method.  However, my physiotherapist takes a holiday break from time to 
time.  During that breaks he takes there is another physiotherapist who takes 
his place.  The physiotherapist who takes his place it seems to be one of those 
who has received that hospital mindful training over hear somewhere but lacking 
of the real experience and therefore death already.  and she kept telling to 
one to breathe
 as a kind of letany rosary chanting mantra she learnt.  And of course that was 
leading her to a nonsense physiotherapy session with a descompased moviments of 
the body and the breath.  I had to kindly ask her to stop and let me do the 
work of the breath in harmony with the moviments of the body by myself as I was 
already familiar with breathing .   But she didn't seem to be very agreable 
with that.  And finally had to cut her off by saying, I'm a zen buddhist 
practicioner and is unluckily you can show me how to breathe so please stop it 
or I'm going away.  You're are harming my body.And she finally stopped.  
Just to name how risky is to bring mindfulness to hospitals.  I rather have 
my weekly physiotherapist who is not into anything and does the work 
beautifully because he listens to my body while the other one didn't!.
 
Mayka
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 7:48


  




 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 
Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. 
For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of 
viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. 
These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass 
GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive 
Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the 
organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of 
the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for 
me, significant. 
Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in 
fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of 
meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. 
These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and 
meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy 
Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel  
Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation.
Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive 
Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic 
therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily 
deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it 
is delivered. 
But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or 
ineffective? Not necessarily. 
Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which 
eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one 
does in the world as spiritual practice. 
Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term 
mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes 
could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the 
validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., 
i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up 
with?
Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why 
wait years, when simple instructions for distress 

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Rose P
This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practice
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM


  




 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 
Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. 
For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of 
viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. 
These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass 
GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive 
Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the 
organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of 
the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for 
me, significant. 
Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in 
fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of 
meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. 
These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and 
meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy 
Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel  
Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation.
Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive 
Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic 
therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily 
deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it 
is delivered. 
But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or 
ineffective? Not necessarily. 
Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which 
eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one 
does in the world as spiritual practice. 
Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term 
mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes 
could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the 
validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., 
i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up 
with?
Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why 
wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those 
featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion 
dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based 
psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting 
here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and 
metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term practitioners. 
Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness skills can be 
learned and behaviors changed?
Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not want 
to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice, or be trained 
to teach mindfulness meditation. Therefore, it may be more desirable and 
practical in clinical settings to deliver a CBT-like mindfulness skill set 
rather than teach meditation
 
In light of all these benefits, what do we lose in clinical practice when we 
allow instruction of vipassana/mindfulness meditation to fall into disfavor or 
become outmoded? The following list is my best guess at an answer to this 
question: 
1.The long and short term stress-reducing physical effects of meditation
2.The plethora of profoundly, positive neural changes evidenced in the brains 
of long term vipassana/Tibetan Buddhist meditators 
3.The deep emotional healing that comes from metta/forgiveness/compassion 
meditation practices 
4.The benefits of setting aside time in our busy lives for silence, meditation 
and contemplation

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Maria Lopez





Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21


  








This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM


  


 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 
Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. 
For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of 
viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. 
These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass 
GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive 
Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the 
organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of 
the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for 
me, significant. 
Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in 
fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of 
meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. 
These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and 
meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy 
Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel  
Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation.
Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive 
Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic 
therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily 
deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it 
is delivered. 
But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or 
ineffective? Not necessarily. 
Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which 
eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one 
does in the world as spiritual practice. 
Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term 
mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes 
could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the 
validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., 
i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up 
with?
Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But why 
wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those 
featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion 
dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based 
psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting 
here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and 
metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term practitioners. 
Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness skills can be 
learned and behaviors changed?
Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not want 
to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Rose P
Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm 
a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is 
not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better 
one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, 
but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's 
something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an 
unattainable one. 
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM


  













Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21


  






This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM


  


 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 
Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. 
For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of 
viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. 
These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass 
GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive 
Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the 
organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of 
the presentation time to methodologies that do not include meditation was, for 
me, significant. 
Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, in 
fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of 
meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention. 
These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and 
meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and Trudy 
Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel Siegel  
Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of meditation.
Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive 
Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic 
therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily 
deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which it 
is delivered. 
But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or 
ineffective? Not necessarily. 
Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which 
eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one 
does in the world as spiritual practice. 
Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term 
mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes 
could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of the 
validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the self., 
i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually comes up 
with?
Years

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread ChrisAustinLane
My teacher spoke of neither pushing away the moment nor grabbing onto the 
moment. Life flows through us peacefully. 

But many practitioners and neurologists emphasize that it is not not getting 
upset but recovering quickly  and with awareness that is key. Irritants pop up 
from time to time. To leave them as just irritants and not have the whole 
body/mind get flooded with irritation is the pleasant state. 

Rocks are not reactive. That isn't so hard. To be aware and not reactive, that 
is our calling as humans. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:21, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
 
 This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for 
 me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to 
 experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away 
 (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is 
 non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practice
  
 Rose
 
 --- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM
 
  
 Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set
 
 October 7, 2010
 By 4u Articles
 As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
 psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
 find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
 year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
 clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
 and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA.
 Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
 presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical 
 work. For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way 
 of viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices.
 These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U 
 Mass GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on 
 Positive Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact 
 that the organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote 
 over half of the presentation time to methodologies that do not include 
 meditation was, for me, significant.
 Though this might be expected at a Mindfulness and Psychotherapy conference, 
 in fact the UCLA conference featured more presenters discussing the use of 
 meditation and compassion practices as a clinical intervention.
 These presenters included: Thich Nhat Hahn, Vietnamese Buddhist monk and 
 meditation teacher, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, Harriett Kimble Wrye, and 
 Trudy Goodman, all psychologists and meditation teachers, and Dr. Daniel 
 Siegel  Harvard neuroscientist Sara Lazar presenting the neurobiology of 
 meditation.
 Due to the continuing trend in mental health toward brief, CBT [Cognitive 
 Behavior Therapy] methods and away from depth-oriented, psychodynamic 
 therapies, one can easily see how a reduction of mindfulness to an easily 
 deliverable skill set would be a natural outcome of the environment in which 
 it is delivered.
 But is the doing away with meditation practice psychotherapeutically wrong or 
 ineffective? Not necessarily.
 Even in the East, Karma Yoga is an example of a path to liberation which 
 eschews formal meditation practice in favor of a commitment to the work one 
 does in the world as spiritual practice.
 Also, with neuroscience showing significant brain changes from long-term 
 mindfulness meditation, one can easily see how a researcher like Steven Hayes 
 could create mental exercises that simulate, through active questioning of 
 the validity of language, the realization of the contextual nature of the 
 self., i.e., Am I really these thoughts and beliefs that my mind continually 
 comes up with?
 Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience. But 
 why wait years, when simple instructions for distress tolerance, like those 
 featured in DBT can be dispensed to patients suffering from emotion 
 dysregulation? Following in the footsteps of ACT is Acceptance-based 
 psychotherapy which focuses on delivering skills for realizing and accepting 
 here and now experience with compassion; something vipassana meditation and 
 metta practices are well documented at cultivating in long-term 
 practitioners. Yet again, why practice meditation at all when mindfulness 
 skills can be learned and behaviors changed?
 Additionally, it must be acknowledged that most psychotherapists will not 
 want to learn and commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice, or be 
 trained to teach mindfulness meditation. Therefore, it may be more desirable 
 and practical in clinical settings to deliver a CBT-like 

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

 I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work 
with grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife 
was delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 



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Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Maria Lopez
Rose:
 
Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the 
experience that is in front of you.  Means to have an open mind. Means that one 
is not a narrow mind.   It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and 
ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one.   Nothing new can be learnt.  
New experiences in that way are not welcome.  It doesn't seem to me that that 
is your case.  You actually seem to be quite an open mind 
person.   If one reacts and one knows that one is reacting .  One could also  
do an step forward and finding out why one is reacting.    But it will be one 
and no one else who has to see into that.   Having a reaction with the unknown 
is a normal reaction we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is 
that the non practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting.
 
To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about  
because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience 
of the practice.  I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article 
backs up continusly himself/herself  with the use of science,  pompous names, 
professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his 
readers to whatever he wants to convert them.  This is called religious 
manipulation.
 
Have I answer what you were asking?. 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51


  








Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm 
a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is 
not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better 
one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, 
but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's 
something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an 
unattainable one. 
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM


  











Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster
 
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21


  






This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise
 
Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM


  


 

Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set

October 7, 2010By 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 
Interestingly, the conference at Harvard featured a greater percentage of 
presenters who do not use meditation as an intervention in their clinical work. 
For them, mindfulness is a teachable skill set, extrapolated from a way of 
viewing life gained from sustained Buddhist meditation practices. 
These presenters included: Steven Hayes, founder of ACT, Lizbeth Roemer, U Mass 
GAD researcher and clinician, Tal Ben-Shahar, Harvard Lecturer on Positive 
Psychology, and Jayme Shorin, LICSW, sensorimotor trainer. The fact that the 
organizers of the Harvard conference felt it necessary to devote over half of 
the presentation time

Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread ED



Rose,

All teachers and Eastern traditions, and now Western
psychologists/pychotherapitsts are essentially saying the same things
about meditation:

o Two of the principal causes of human suffering are a strong desire and
grasping for what we like and a strong aversion to, fear of, hate for,
criticim of and emoting over what we don't like.

o These two passions can roil, stress and debilitate the mind on an
ongoing basis.

o The objective of meditation is to deprogram the mind from this
habitual, stressful push/pull activity.

o  Meditation addresses this problem in a mini-timeslice of formal
meditation as follows:

o  In meditation, one's mind is regarded as the open, clear, sky.
Thoughts, feelings, sensations, and perceptions are like clouds floating
by in this clear blue sky.

o  One watches the clouds float by without comment, without judgment,
without reactivity and without grasping at or pushing away.

o (In meditation, one keeps a still body in order to minimize cloud
formation.)

o Gradually, after much practice, the frequency of cloud appearance will
decline.

o Eventually, one will have little difficulty entering the clear-sky
state in meditation.

o It is advisable not to engage in mind-disturbing activities when out
of the formal meditation state as that would tend to dissipate the
clear-sky state.

o Eventually the open, clear-mind state, with minimal to no
grasping/aversion will begin to extend itself to the
between-formal-meditation periods.

o  Eventually one becomes the seamless buddha-mind of just here and
now.

o  (And, behind the scenes, beyond one's awareness, all this effort is
being recorded in neural changes.)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote:

This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out
for me was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to
experience.' It made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped
away (the words, the concepts, the debates, and indeed the
'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to experience the essence, the key,
the aim of the practice   Rose




Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread Maria Lopez
That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing 
about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a woman I should 
have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to 
dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her hand very gentle but 
very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest.  LIstening to her 
voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with her.  It's the heart 
acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient 
and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the 
heart too.
 
Mayka
 
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16


  





Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with 
grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was 
delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 






RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread BillSmart
Rose,

My understanding is the same as Mayka’s.

Being non-reactive does not mean being passive.  Popular terms that are similar 
are ‘go with the flow’ or ‘follow the Tao’.

I personally think non-reactive is actually not a good descriptive term.  You 
do react, but your reactions are spontaneous not premeditated.

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:36 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

 

  


Rose:

 

Non being reactive in the TNH tradition means that you are opened to the 
experience that is in front of you.  Means to have an open mind. Means that one 
is not a narrow mind.   It means that one is not limited by pre-concepts and 
ideas in a way that nothing new can get into one.   Nothing new can be learnt.  
New experiences in that way are not welcome.  It doesn't seem to me that that 
is your case.  You actually seem to be quite an open mind person.   If one 
reacts and one knows that one is reacting .  One could also  do an step forward 
and finding out why one is reacting.But it will be one and no one else who 
has to see into that.   Having a reaction with the unknown is a normal reaction 
we all have. The difference with a non practicioner is that the non 
practicioner reacts and doesn't know of reacting.

 

To me this article has not a particular value in the theme is talking about  
because is written from an outsider and not from within the direct experience 
of the practice.  I wonder if this may be the reason the writer of the article 
backs up continusly himself/herself  with the use of science,  pompous names, 
professions, schools to persuade better his/her readers to convert better his 
readers to whatever he wants to convert them.  This is called religious 
manipulation.

 

Have I answer what you were asking?. 

Mayka

 

 

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 13:51

  


Yes, indeed Mayka. This question of 'non-reactivity to experience' though, I'm 
a little confused as to whether that's part of the aim of meditation (this is 
not really the word I'm looking for at all..but I don't have a better 
one...). Non-reactivity to experience could be helpful in certain situations, 
but not in others? Or always helpful.? For a beginner like myself there's 
something appealing about non-reactivity as a 'goal', albeit probably an 
unattainable one. 

 

Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:16 PM

  



Empathy, care for a patient,  altruism, love,  compassion has always been in 
very good reputable all Hospitals from Pamplona, Spain which are well know to 
all  high standard up Professional in the medical field in Europe . strangely 
enough those hospitals happen to be in its majority in the hands of OPUS Dei 
and catholic church (or at least they were) .  The real  mystery here is once 
again in the heart.  And no matter who embodies that heart.  Nothing at all is 
possible without the heart.  If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the 
outcome will be a disaster

 

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 12:21

  


This was a really interesting article Ed. The bit that really stood out for me 
was 'Years of meditation cultivates a natural non-reactivity to experience.' It 
made me wonder whether, once everything else is stripped away (the words, the 
concepts, the debates, and indeed the 'wondering'...), is non-reactivity to 
experience the essence, the key, the aim of the practise

 

Rose

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:48 AM

  

 


Mindfulness: Meditation Vs. Skill Set


October 7, 2010

By  http://www.4u-2.com/author/admin/ 4u Articles 

As a long term yogic and vipassana meditator, and a mindfulness-based 
psychotherapist who regularly teaches meditation practices to my patients, I 
find the growth of mindfulness as a clinical intervention very timely. Last 
year, I attended two conferences focused on the use of mindfulness as a 
clinical intervention: Meditation and Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School 
and Mindfulness and Psychotherapy at UCLA. 

Interestingly

RE: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

2010-10-20 Thread BillSmart
Actually yelling is just a violent exhale.  It would be followed by a violent 
inhale – gasping for breath.

This is an excellent breathing technique…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:03 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?

 

  


That sounds terrible Chris.  And this is what I meant by reading or overhearing 
about breathing but with no experience at all into that.   As a woman I should 
have encouraged her to yell as much as she wanted if that would help her to 
dilate better and cope her pain.  I would have hold her hand very gentle but 
very firm and talk to her with reassurance and kindnest.  LIstening to her 
voice, to her body..  Being one with her.  Breathing with her.  It's the heart 
acting as the guide that brings all that sensitivity, unity between a patient 
and a carer, nurse, doctor...I wonder if they can make an statistics about the 
heart too.

 

Mayka

 

--- On Wed, 20/10/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Positive neural changes in the brain due to meditation?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 16:16

  



Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:16, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com  
wrote:

 If mindfulness is show in a scientific way the outcome will be a disaster

I have more faith. Scientists are humans, and there has already been much 
suffering relieved by the meditation based therapies described in the article. 
Science is another human activity.

I agree tho for physically therapies you want a person who does their work with 
grace. Your story reminded me of a nurse that was present while my wife was 
delivering our first born, with out pain meds and therefor rather loudly 
working at labor. At some point the yelling upset the nurse who yelled at my 
wife, do your relaxing breathing that you learned. despite the indubitable 
power of conscious breathing, it was not a helpful thing to yell at that time. 





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