RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, I’m sorry my remarks were rational. I’ll try to remedy that next time…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:06 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well, over there. The rest of your remarks below are very rational. Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM Anthony, If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that wouldn’t bother me. I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc… It is possible to have concepts (illusions) about them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your statement below is contradictory: - You know there are no spiritual truths. - You don't know whether there are spiritual truths. anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM Anthony, I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5543 (20101018) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5543 (20101018) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, Does killing the Buddha resolve the problem of whether you should jump off the precipice, or turn back to avoid killing your self? Anthony --- On Tue, 19/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 6:50 AM Anthony, If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him . signifies: [Zen is] a special transmission outside of the scriptures, No reliance on words and letters, A direct pointing to the heart/mind of man, And the realization of enlightenment. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, It is OK whatever you say. However, if I follow you, am I free to kill, rob and loot? It is OK to kill buddha, Socrates or Mao Zedong. But when I stand on the brink of a precipice, what do I do? Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill, So, I see you heading for the asylum. Maybe you already had a glimpse of what it is like. Is it fun? Can I join you there? Anthony PS, Seung Sahn says he is a lunatic, The difference is he can control when and where he gets in and out of the madness, while those at an asylum cannot. I hope you will find an improved place. --- On Tue, 19/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 5:02 PM Anthony, I’m sorry my remarks were rational. I’ll try to remedy that next time…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:06 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well, over there. The rest of your remarks below are very rational. Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM Anthony, If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that wouldn’t bother me. I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc… It is possible to have concepts (illusions) about them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your statement below is contradictory: - You know there are no spiritual truths. - You don't know whether there are spiritual truths. anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM Anthony, I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5543 (20101018
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill! Been away from the computer for a while so haven't had chance to respond to a few posts. If I make it out to Thailand I'd be honoured to catch up with you and shoot the breeze. I've bought tickets for Bali and India, but I'm holding back on the Nepal (Himalayas) and SE Asia leg of the journey until I finalize a few things. I'll let you know in due course. Thanks again! Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, Your agnostic position is as much as to take a position of no position, at least for the time being. Are you waiting for it to be proven by science? But is the scientific proof final? Once Newton was consifered final, until Einstein appeared. Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 9:26 AM ED: do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true conceptions or not. Anthony: I don't know either. But any better theory? ED: I cannot see how anyone could hold a position different from mine. Can you? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, I don't know either. But any better theory? The alternatives: - No retribution (materialistic view). So go killing, robbing and raping. - Don't do that, or God will punish you. - Maybe you will get away, if you have good luck. Every thing by chance. - If you are destined to be lucky, you do what you like. If not, better watch out. Nobody can change luck. Not even God. What is your view? Anthony Anthony, karma: the effects of a person's actions that determine his destiny in his next incarnation truth: a fact that has been verified I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true conceptions or not. --ED ED, Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution? Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, It is easy to make them go on the same road. Just repeat the Mantra: you are illusion, you are illusion... Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:09 AM *bows* I doubt they would be on the same road in the first place. Maybe Socrates and Nietzche. But then, I have a lot of reading undone. k --- On Sun, 10/17/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 5:42 PM Anthony, As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/Bill, In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a precipice, I had better know better. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Easier said than done. The best way to kill all discursive thinking is to become a zombie. Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 9:40 AM Anthony, Kill all discursive thinking, one female German zen master (who had the Inka of a well-known Japanese Zen master), sugggested to me in a sesshin Dokusan some three decades ago. --ED PS: She was as strict as a Prussian General, and commanded us not to move at all - even when our noses were dripping. (Sit, Fido, sit! ;-)) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill? Anthony Anthony, As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both. --ED ED/Bill, In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a precipice, I had better know better. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill, Your contradictory statement must be killed, if you don't want to end up in an asylum. Probably you would be happier, and I am as well, over there. The rest of your remarks below are very rational. Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 10:10 AM Anthony, If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that wouldn’t bother me. I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc… It is possible to have concepts (illusions) about them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your statement below is contradictory: - You know there are no spiritual truths. - You don't know whether there are spiritual truths. anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM Anthony, I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, It is OK whatever you say. However, if I follow you, am I free to kill, rob and loot? It is OK to kill buddha, Socrates or Mao Zedong. But when I stand on the brink of a precipice, what do I do? Anthony --- On Tue, 19/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 19 October, 2010, 6:05 AM Anthony, Anthony, My position is: The data required to determine the truth or falsity of karma/retribution or rebirth is not currently available (and will never be available.) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, Your agnostic position is as much as to take a position of no position, at least for the time being. Anthony ED: I do not know whether karma /retribution or rebirth are true conceptions or not.
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, I would call myself an ‘agnostic’. The roots of the word are ‘a’, which means ‘without’ (like ‘amoral’), and ‘gnosis’ which means ‘knowledge of spiritual truths’. So an ‘agnostic’ would be someone ‘ has no knowledge of spiritual truths’ – and that description fits me to a tee. More commonly it is used to mean someone who believes that spiritual truths (like whether or not God exists) are unknowable. I’d agree with that definition also, but not because of the usual reason – the belief that spiritual truths exist, but are unknowable to humans. I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. Spirits, spirituality, etc.., are all illusory. There is only one Truth, and that is Just THIS! …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, All these qualities you assigned to me are also available to all comrades…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 4:46 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony --- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM Mike, I gave you incorrect information. The map is on the CONTACT Page. Click the small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location marked with a red star…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I live in the province of Phetchabun. See my personal website www.billsmart.com. There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location. It’s a long way from Koh Chang. Keep in touch. I have no idea what I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I’ll be, but chances are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Very good answer Bill!. I like the most the expression comrades..Hehehe...!!! --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 10:05 Anthony, All these qualities you assigned to me are also available to all comrades…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 4:46 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony --- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM Mike, I gave you incorrect information. The map is on the CONTACT Page. Click the small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location marked with a red star…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I live in the province of Phetchabun. See my personal website www.billsmart.com. There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location. It’s a long way from Koh Chang. Keep in touch. I have no idea what I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I’ll be, but chances are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Ed, One is a single agnostic. Two would be a pair of agnostics. Three or more would be a gaggle of agnostics. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 6:40 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Next question: What sort of agnostic is one? --ED Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a broader view than weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable. Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological grounds that humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know about anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is that this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively supernatural beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural world can be explained by science, the defining feature of any deity must be supernatural. Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief (depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be reconciled with theism (as in fideism) or weak atheism (as in agnostic atheism). However, it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism, as strong atheism makes a positive assertion that God does not exist, without the possibility that God may exist and just be unknowable. The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't either. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5539 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, Are you also a non-believer in karma/rebirth/retribution? Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 10:50 AM Anthony, I *am* a non-believer in the Abrahmic (Jewish-Christian-Islamic) God-conception. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, According to Google, Sceptic: doubter close to non-believer. Agnostic: doubter not believing or non-believing. Based on the definition, are you the former or the latter? Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 11:03 AM Anthony, I think not. http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1 http://www.google.com/search?hl=ensa=Xei=Jma6TOv5E5SqsAOk47GpDwved=0CAQQBSgAq=define%3Askepticspell=1 --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill, Your statement below is contradictory: - You know there are no spiritual truths. - You don't know whether there are spiritual truths. anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM Anthony, I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED/Bill, In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a precipice, I had better know better. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:39 PM Bill, Next question: What sort of agnostic is one? --ED Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a broader view than weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable. Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological grounds that humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know about anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is that this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively supernatural beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural world can be explained by science, the defining feature of any deity must be supernatural. Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief (depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be reconciled with theism (as in fideism) or weak atheism (as in agnostic atheism). However, it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism, as strong atheism makes a positive assertion that God does not exist, without the possibility that God may exist and just be unknowable. The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't either.
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Stalin says, 'one agnostic shakes the world, but a million agnostics are just a statistic.' Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 9:00 PM Ed, One is a single agnostic. Two would be a pair of agnostics. Three or more would be a gaggle of agnostics. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 6:40 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Next question: What sort of agnostic is one? --ED Strong agnosticism or positive agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a broader view than weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable. Strong agnosticism is usually justified on the epistemological grounds that humans can only experience the natural world and thus cannot know about anything which may exist outside it, including deities. One criticism is that this justification is only valid if deities are viewed as exclusively supernatural beings, but to support such a view one must have at least some knowledge of the nature of deities. The agnostic reply is, as the natural world can be explained by science, the defining feature of any deity must be supernatural. Since strong agnosticism concerns knowledge and not necessarily belief (depending on how belief and knowledge are defined), it may be reconciled with theism (as in fideism) or weak atheism (as in agnostic atheism). However, it cannot be reconciled with strong atheism, as strong atheism makes a positive assertion that God does not exist, without the possibility that God may exist and just be unknowable. The viewpoint has also been described in a semi-humorous fashion as militant agnosticism, with the tagline I don't know, and you don't either. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5539 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5539 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, When you stand on the brink of a precipice, who do you kill? Anthony --- On Mon, 18/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 18 October, 2010, 7:42 AM Anthony, As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/Bill, In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a precipice, I had better know better. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
*bows* I doubt they would be on the same road in the first place. Maybe Socrates and Nietzche. But then, I have a lot of reading undone. k --- On Sun, 10/17/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 5:42 PM Anthony, As the saying goes, if you see Socrates and the Buddha on the road, kill both. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/Bill, In a discussion like this, I tend to follow Socrates' statement: 'I know I don't know, while fools don't know they don't know.' But when I stand on a precipice, I had better know better. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, If my statement was indeed contradictory, especially if illogical, that wouldn’t bother me. I know there are no spiritual truths the same way I know there are no spiritual laws, spiritual colors, spiritual sounds, or spiritual anything; so it is not possible to know spiritual truths, laws, colors, sounds, etc… It is possible to have concepts (illusions) about them. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill, Your statement below is contradictory: - You know there are no spiritual truths. - You don't know whether there are spiritual truths. anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 5:05 PM Anthony, I believe spiritual truths are unknowable because there are no spiritual truths. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:15 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5538 (20101016) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5540 (20101017) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony --- On Sat, 16/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 16 October, 2010, 10:56 AM Mike, I gave you incorrect information. The map is on the CONTACT Page. Click the small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location marked with a red star…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I live in the province of Phetchabun. See my personal website www.billsmart.com. There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location. It’s a long way from Koh Chang. Keep in touch. I have no idea what I’ll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I’ll be, but chances are good I’ll be at my home in Phetchabun. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, Agnostic, if I understand correctly, means sceptic. If so, I can be tolerant. If you and Bill go further to become an unbeliever, I will summon a jihad. Anthony --- On Sun, 17/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 17 October, 2010, 7:49 AM Anthony, I believe that Bill, like me, is an agnostic where karma, rebirth and the supernatural are concerned. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, That proved my suspicion that you are a Communist (Red Star), because you deny karma, rebirth and retribution. So you will be at home at the Party, enjoying bribes without compunction. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, When are you coming to Thailand, and where will you be? .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Kristy, I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) and the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers who are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in public is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and *safe* etc etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving any time soon (although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 months!). Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5532 (20101014) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5532 (20101014) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi Mike, It's certainly a strange situation here regarding the US-Japanese relationship. Here's a country that had 2 atomic bombs dropped on it in living memory, yet young people go around adopting the fashion of the country that did the bombing (eg, wearing 'I love the USA' baseball caps etc). Yep-- very couner-intuitive from that perspective. My travels are purely hedonistic and have nothing to do with either Zen or my job (teaching English). Anything I learn on my travels regarding understanding women and how to chat them up will be a bonus ; ) Well then, may your adventure yield many fruits. Sounds fun.. Have a great weekend.. k
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, I live in the province of Phetchabun. See my personal website www.billsmart.com. There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location. It's a long way from Koh Chang. Keep in touch. I have no idea what I'll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I'll be, but chances are good I'll be at my home in Phetchabun. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, I gave you incorrect information. The map is on the CONTACT Page. Click the small map on that page and a larger one will appear with my home location marked with a red star.Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I live in the province of Phetchabun. See my personal website www.billsmart.com. There is a map on the ABOUT US Page that shows the location. It's a long way from Koh Chang. Keep in touch. I have no idea what I'll be doing in Feb next year, or even where I'll be, but chances are good I'll be at my home in Phetchabun. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike brown Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:38 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Bill!, Haven't finalised the itinery yet, but I'm anticipating that it will be around the end of Feb next year (after spending 3 weeks in the Himalayas). I've been to Thailand a couple of times already. Love Thai people. Always end up in Ko Chang - one of my favourite places on this planet.Whereabouts do you live (if you don't mind me asking)? Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) and the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers who are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in public is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and *safe* etc etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving any time soon (although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 months!). Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi Mike, The westernized diet is the worst export the USA has given Japan , and the world. I've heard it said, (though don't know if its true), that Japanese people envy all things American, and work hard to adopt our lifestyle. Seems odd, as our eating habits on a per capia basis, has us as the fattest, most sedentary, with the highest chronic health complaints of all. Childhood obesity, ADD /ADHD. pre-diabetes and more is passed onto our youth. Japanese people have traditionally had among the highest life expectancy rates in the world. Copying us is simply self-destructive. Enough on that rant..except to add that if what you say here is true, it is us who need to copy them. It sounds like you have an exciting adventure coming up. Are you travelling for work, or is this some kind of buddhist /zen -related pilgrimage;) Perhaps a tantra-training to better enjoy all those lovely women;) Kristy --- On Thu, 10/14/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 5:38 AM Kristy, I couldn't believe the first time I went to a Japanese foodhall (in a mall) and the queue for McDonalds was 20 people and the traditional food places (ramen, okanomiyaki etc.) were empty! Still, Japan is an alternative reality for those of us from the West. No violence, extreme politeness (getting bowed to for ordering a Big Mac is still a thrill), no obesity (except for sumo wrestlers who are seen as gods), trains that run on time *to the minute*, drinking in public is ok, children as young as 10 still travelling on trains at 11pm and *safe* etc etc. And the women.. oh my god, the women... Yep, won't be leaving any time soon (although I'm going to Bali, India, Nepal and Thailand this Xmas for 3 months!). Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi Mike! *s* So I guess you work as a tour guide? I love your soft-sell approach. We have not finalized the itinerary as of yet, but will likely have a stop in Kyoto. Kyoto is coincidentally the name of a truly outstanding Japanese restaurant where I live. Given your description, perhaps I should skip the bath-houses there? Sadly, the vending machines and the shift in traditional diet there can be blamed on the USA and western influences. The native Japanese diet is among the healthiest on the planet. Emphasis on fish, sea vegetables and so on, enabled the people there to live long and productive lives. Trust McDonald's to end a thousand-year tradition.. I remember watching a video of a Japanese zen monastary. The winter months there appeared brutal indeed. Their only reprieve was a bedtime drink of rice wine to warm their weary bones. As you have children-- how are they adapting to life, school, language and culture there? Kristy --- On Mon, 10/11/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 7:38 PM Kristy, Japan in January will be bitterly cold, but then again each season has its own atmosphere and charm. Which city will you be visiting? I live in Kyoto and work in Nara. Although I'm getting more used to living here every passing year (this is my sixth), it still feels like 'Lost in Translation'. If you want your house to really feel like the genuine Japan, just include a vending machine on each wall and a drunken salaryman being sick in the garden. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, Japan in January will be bitterly cold, but then again each season has its own atmosphere and charm. Which city will you be visiting? I live in Kyoto and work in Nara. Although I'm getting more used to living here every passing year (this is my sixth), it still feels like 'Lost in Translation'. If you want your house to really feel like the genuine Japan, just include a vending machine on each wall and a drunken salaryman being sick in the garden. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
--- On Wed, 10/6/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 4:19 AM Good Morning Mike, Sorry this is delayed~~ I've been away, and haven't read mail. Haven't even been on a cushion in three days (which is a long time for me). I just wanted to comment that I didn't know you lived in Japan. How delightful:) My partner and I will be there in January. He has been asked to consult on a few pediatric neuro-surgical cases, and I will be teaching a few yoga and mindful awareness classes. I wish we were going to be there in the spring~~ we bought a home recently, and my love of Japanese design has me busy planning a Japanese garden with adjacent zendo /tea room;) Thanks for all your great comments-- Be well.. Kristy Kristy, I think I'm much more like your dad - I like the description 'gender-blind' : ) I also have a daughter (and 2 sons) and have always encouraged her in any endeavour she wishes to undertake. Gender is not a consideration. I also agree regarding the differences between the sexes and liking it. I think that's a large part of my liking life here in Japan. The women here are so relaxed about he different roles the genders take compared to the uptightness in the west. Vive la difference! Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:17:59 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike, in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off guard with this. I suspect you have a good point, though I have always thought of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities. I actually have a great sense of humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend or family. But I am not active in the feminist issues, per se. On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant. Its been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes. Our society has evolved in a patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by definition the fault of men. There is an element of men-haters there as a result. I have a different perspective. My dad is gender-blind. He could not conceive that a daughter of his could not do anything she decided to do. The idea of a glass ceiling is foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in that sense. I didn't feel I needed to prove' something. When I started working, I never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy for me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary. One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a negative influence on men. Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment groups and thought, has led to a plethora of books and media that called for men to discover their 'feminine' side. It became politically incorrect to follow any of the tradional norms. Men became femininized. At least on the surface and in behavior. Laws were passed to insure this. I personally like having two genders. I don't understand the drive to homogenize us so that we are all equal and neutral. We aren't We're simply different. That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. Better or worse. We're simply different. We should celebrate that. Each offering what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with each other what we each bring to the table. Men as men. Women as women. Not stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women can be astro-physcisits, or any combination in between. I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor. If so, thats sad. Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;) Kristy --- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mayka, I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being offended as though that settles the argument or ends it. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an aggression. It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're raising is actually a very good point. This point was discussed in a group of friends while I was in Spain this last July. We were talking that before there was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression comes in a psycological way. As soon as one expresses something that is going to be a critic that has an impact, then very quickly comes out abusive behaviour, agression etc, etc. --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44 Mayka, I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people will always label assertion as 'agressive'. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly . However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mayka, Don't wanna get drawn into this argument but I feel you both could have reacted in so many different ways than you both did. Always try to remember that communication by email if frought with dangers due to small nuances of communication being lost. I get the feeling that if you and Kristy ever met face to face you'd get on really well. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:09:48 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!! --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34 Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, I think I'm much more like your dad - I like the description 'gender-blind' : ) I also have a daughter (and 2 sons) and have always encouraged her in any endeavour she wishes to undertake. Gender is not a consideration. I also agree regarding the differences between the sexes and liking it. I think that's a large part of my liking life here in Japan. The women here are so relaxed about he different roles the genders take compared to the uptightness in the west. Vive la difference! Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 0:17:59 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike, in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off guard with this. I suspect you have a good point, though I have always thought of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities. I actually have a great sense of humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend or family. But I am not active in the feminist issues, per se. On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant. Its been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes. Our society has evolved in a patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by definition the fault of men. There is an element of men-haters there as a result. I have a different perspective. My dad is gender-blind. He could not conceive that a daughter of his could not do anything she decided to do. The idea of a glass ceiling is foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in that sense. I didn't feel I needed to prove' something. When I started working, I never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy for me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary. One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a negative influence on men. Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment groups and thought, has led to a plethora of books and media that called for men to discover their 'feminine' side. It became politically incorrect to follow any of the tradional norms. Men became femininized. At least on the surface and in behavior. Laws were passed to insure this. I personally like having two genders. I don't understand the drive to homogenize us so that we are all equal and neutral. We aren't We're simply different. That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. Better or worse. We're simply different. We should celebrate that. Each offering what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with each other what we each bring to the table. Men as men. Women as women. Not stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women can be astro-physcisits, or any combination in between. I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor. If so, thats sad. Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;) Kristy --- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate included people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you say they were widely ridiculed in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc? According to many polls, half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were being ridiculed? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a follow up question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having their finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because they believe in the literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) as the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile defence because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world leaders who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to be spelled out? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not happen; they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy in the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, I'm not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Anthony, A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In the last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow up question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now that's what I call a free pass. Mike  Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature. From: Anthony Wu wu...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM  Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never asÂ
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, Criticism from people within religion is not the same as criticism from people outside religion. A belief in faith allows (some) people to indoctrinate children in the most evil and despicable ways (take a look at the documentary 'Jesus Camp'). If I was to do the same thing in the name of Marxism I would be arrested for child abuse. You'd have to see the documentary to understand my point. Mike From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:14:39 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I don't see your point. For me, a 'free pass' means you are exempt from something, such as criticism. I was thinking that you might be afraid of criticizing religion for fear of the hostile environment. Now I was shocked that you said something so strongly regarding Yehwah. It occurred to me that that is useful for you to act in Japan. They like what you say about the god. So good luck with your conversion of the Japanese to the glory of God. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:24 PM Anthony, A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In the last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow up question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now that's what I call a free pass. Mike Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature. From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic. Mike From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More than one louse. That is why Bill is there. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant the singular 'mouse') : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Jane, Only if you were condenmed to remain in this forum ; ) Mike From: Jane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 11:22:13 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. One is tempted to generalize that the nature of living is pervasive disappointment. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum.
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, I'll limit myself to answering some of the more pertinent points. You say it would be frightening if someone with these fundemental beliefs was ever nominated. But they have been (ie, Reagan, as already mentioned) and also Bush advocates for the inclusion of creationism in public schools. Bush snr. has even been quoted as saying that atheists should be denied citizenship! You also say that people who think religion should be completely removed from politics are just trolling. Doesn't that make the framers of the US Constitution the ultimate trolls with their insistence on the separation of powers? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:26:04 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate included people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you say they were widely ridiculed in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc? Well, where did you see it? I know the Daily Show mocked it almost immediately. As far as I know, none of the above conservative commentators disbelieve evolution. They are not wont to criticize other Republicans - but that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. (The conservatives *were* quick to criticize Obama' religious beliefs, BTW) According to many polls, half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were being ridiculed? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a follow up question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having their finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because they believe in the literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) as the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile defence because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world leaders who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to be spelled out?     Mike Which would be absolutely terrifying if any of them actually were nominated. I'm not saying that anyone should get a free pass for their beliefs. What I am saying is that for many so-called liberals and free thinkers the opposite is true - anything remotely religious is automatically lumped in with the most extremist beliefs These were my only points. The forum that I was on had a section specifically delegated for discusion of religion. And while I'm open to criticism of religion, it was overrun by people who actively wanted to remove religion from politics. In other words, trolling. It would be like a forum on stamp collecting bring dominated by anti-stamp people. My other point was that completely eliminating religion from politics i not only impossible but unwise, because there are people whose political convictions to make the world better were aided by their religiou beliefs. From: DP wookielife...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Not quite. It was not the last presidential debate, it was a debate among those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, nothing did not happen; they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy in the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, I'm not sure what evolution has to do with having their finger on the button. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Anthony, A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In the last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow up question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now that's what I call a free pass. Mike  Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature. From: Anthony Wu wuasg@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, Never said I thought it was offensive, so you can't plead innocent when there was no charge in the first place. I understand your point/frustration if you were trying to discuss a specific situation or particular point about religion and were meet with arguments about religion in general (even tho I'd probably agree with those sentiments). Understood. Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:36:02 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Am I jumping in on your comment to someone else? I don't care, because apparently being offensive isn't a crime. In the original case that i was writing about, it was the lack of respect for the forum that was frustrating me. There was never any consideration that religious belief might sustain people in political struggles. I just heard an interview with Ingrid Betancourt, the woman who was captured by rebels in Colombia for six years. One of the things that sustained her was her religious beliefs. That's the type of thing I'd like to discuss on this forum. Instead I get nothing more than all religion is evil. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, I think so, too. that's my point about people bleating about being offended as though that settles the argument or ends it. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 23:49:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Mike: There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an aggression. It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're raising is actually a very good point. This point was discussed in a group of friends while I was in Spain this last July. We were talking that before there was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression comes in a psycological way. As soon as one expresses something that is going to be a critic that has an impact,  then very quickly comes out abusive behaviour, agression etc, etc. --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44  Mayka, I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people will always label assertion as 'agressive'. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Mike:  In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly .  However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me.  Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history.  Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28  Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisationÂ
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Thank you Anthony --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 1:32 Kristy, I don't think Mayka is insincere, nor did she misspell your name on purpose. It was a typo. Mayka is very conscientious. Please don't take offense. Or I will cry under my pillow. By the way you also call her Maria by mistake. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 11:45 PM Maria, Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were insincere. Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which is fine. Maria-- you do have some issues about me. Your behavior is inappropriate, beit attachment, or passive aggresive. Your feelings about me are yours. But less than sly slurs reflect on you. Move on.. Be well.. K --- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!! --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34 Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, There is nothing profound or enigmatic. It is just language fun. There is always confusion in Asian languages regarding 'r' and 'l'. The Thais tend to pronounce everything with 'l'. You must know that, because in Japan, you must 'rock' your door, when you go out. Anthony --- On Wed, 6/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 7:02 PM Anthony, This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic. Mike From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More than one louse. That is why Bill is there. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant the singular 'mouse') : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, Indeed. I often get the kids to 'crap' hands while singing the ABC song. Mike From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 7 October, 2010 7:21:21 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, There is nothing profound or enigmatic. It is just language fun. There is always confusion in Asian languages regarding 'r' and 'l'. The Thais tend to pronounce everything with 'l'. You must know that, because in Japan, you must 'rock' your door, when you go out. Anthony --- On Wed, 6/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 7:02 PM Anthony, This must be some inscrutable Asian reply because I have no idea what you're talking about yet get the feeling it must be something profound and enigmatic. Mike From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 9:18:29 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, It does not matter mice of mouse. In English, fried rice is considered uncountable, and is always singular. But the Thais call it 'flied lice'. More than one louse. That is why Bill is there. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 10:28 PM Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant the singular 'mouse') : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP and Mike, I've seen faith and I think it's okay.Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:41 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com , mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, You wrote: And... you just lost the thread. Godwin's Law applies equally to neo-Nazis as to Hitler. It would be more like rejecting anything German (or, say, rejecting socialism because of the name National Socialists.) Firstly, Godwin's Law refers to the inevitable reference to Hitler as a fallacious attack against an opponent in an online debate. I wasn't attacking you but was merely illustrating how the mind set of an extreme racist (a neo-Nazis) is something I'm gladly ignorant of. You wrote However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. Furthermore, I'm not sure how I could have lost the thread when the author (Kristy) of the point I was commenting on agreed with me. Then I disagree with Kristy. Your entire attitude has been to attack a caricatured view of religion, all the while dismissing any counter examples. I think you are proving my point about the people on the forum I was talking about. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, The argument you present below is logical, therefore I have faith it will solve the problem here…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kristy McClain Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:24 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Gentlemen, :) Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the thread. I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive. I see now that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum. I will take my own advice and move on. I have no problem accepting both atheists and those who practice faith-based religions. I don't think atheists are ignorant of faith. That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists can, and often do debate religion from an analytical or logic perspective. You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring Can't we all just along school Silly me.. Kristy --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear? Mike _ From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. My god, that is disingenuous... Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them. You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's bad. It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not my experience of religion, and it never will be. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com , mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, I’m disappointed you’re disappointed with Mayka for being disappointed with TNH….Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:32 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mayka, I am disappointed that you are disappointed with TNH. Though I know very little about it, I believe, from what the little I have heard, that TNH is better than many Christian establishments. But I may be wrong. Anyway, if you are fed up with one thing, move on to another. Don't complain. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 9:51 PM Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
*chuckles* to Bill... --- On Tue, 10/5/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 3:06 AM Kristy, The argument you present below is logical, therefore I have faith it will solve the problem here…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kristy McClain Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:24 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Gentlemen, :) Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the thread. I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive. I see now that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum. I will take my own advice and move on. I have no problem accepting both atheists and those who practice faith-based religions. I don't think atheists are ignorant of faith. That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists can, and often do debate religion from an analytical or logic perspective. You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring Can't we all just along school Silly me.. Kristy --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. My god, that is disingenuous... Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them. You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's bad. It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not my experience of religion, and it never will be. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, That post was addressed to Mayka so I don't know why you felt you were called upon on to defend the pope. Mike ps, you don't have to tell me about religious people disagreeing on things. It usually involves them killing each other about whose god is the most peaceful. From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:40:29 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. I am not a Catholic, nor am I a fan of the current pope, who was part of the mechanations to put down Liberation Theology, one of the positive thing that has come out of the Catholic Church. I feel no need to defend Ratzinger, so you are indeed barking up the wrong tree. Gosh, religious people disagree on stuff! How shocking! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordeloto@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.   When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mayka, I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people will always label assertion as 'agressive'. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly . However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whetherÂ
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, Thanks for the clarification. I would definitely agree with you that people of faith are guided by something other than facts ; ) Also, I don't think atheists try to disprove anything. I completely agree that faith exists - it's just based on bad evidence. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 2:23:56 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Gentlemen, :) Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the thread. I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive. I see now that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum. I will take my own advice and move on. I have no problem accepting both atheists and those who practice faith-based religions. I don't think atheists are ignorant of faith. That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists can, and often do debate religion from an analytical or logic perspective. You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring Can't we all just along school Silly me.. Kristy --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. My god, that is disingenuous... Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them. You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's bad. It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not my experience of religion, and it never will be. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, Great article, but it's preaching to the converted in my case. I guess when you say slaughtered you mean the wanton killing of people for something other than pure survival and/or defence? Killing in the name of an ideology or belief is just pure madness and evil. And 'evilest of the evil' award would have to go to that psychopathic, homophobic, sadistic tyrant Yahweh of the Old Testament. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 4:25:20 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I do not contradict you. However, do you feel the same outrage toward Jews, Christians, the UK, US, Israel, etc. for their horrible slaughters of native peoples? http://www.counterpunch.org/blum10012010.html (Read if you choose to; don't if you don't) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony, A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the point I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. In the last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that they didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a follow up question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the button. Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth etc. Now that's what I call a free pass. Mike Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in literature. From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant the singular 'mouse') : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike: There is a certain true in what you say about labelling assertion as an aggression. It's something that is happening more and more. This what you're raising is actually a very good point. This point was discussed in a group of friends while I was in Spain this last July. We were talking that before there was a dictatorial repressing the freedom of speech and that now that repression comes in a psycological way. As soon as one expresses something that is going to be a critic that has an impact, then very quickly comes out abusive behaviour, agression etc, etc. --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:44 Mayka, I agree with you in the most part about the use of agression but the problem is that sometimes assertive action is needed to highlight problem issues. That action may include rather loud demonstrations as witnessed in London during the pope's visit. I would never condone violence but bear in mind that some people will always label assertion as 'agressive'. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:57:06 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike: In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly . However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi Mike, in all honesty, I was going to be supportive of feminism, but you caught me off guard with this. I suspect you have a good point, though I have always thought of myself as supporting women's choices and opportunities. I actually have a great sense of humor known by all who know me, beit colleage, friend or family. But I am not active in the feminist issues, per se. On a broader level (;).. perhaps many who are active border on militant. Its been years since I took a class or seminar in women's studies, but even then, i questioned the all-or-nothing attitudes. Our society has evolved in a patriarchial way, but in my view, every woe or set-back women face , is not by definition the fault of men. There is an element of men-haters there as a result. I have a different perspective. My dad is gender-blind. He could not conceive that a daughter of his could not do anything she decided to do. The idea of a glass ceiling is foreign to him. So, I never grew up feeling lesser in that sense. I didn't feel I needed to prove' something. When I started working, I never sensed any feeling of discrimination or judgement. Thus, it was easy for me to keep my sense of humor, blonde jokes, and my salary. One sociological effect of the feminist campaign has, in my view, had a negative influence on men. Since the 80's, the growth of self-help empowerment groups and thought, has led to a plethora of books and media that called for men to discover their 'feminine' side. It became politically incorrect to follow any of the tradional norms. Men became femininized. At least on the surface and in behavior. Laws were passed to insure this. I personally like having two genders. I don't understand the drive to homogenize us so that we are all equal and neutral. We aren't We're simply different. That doesn't mean that one is more or less. Smarter or dumber. Better or worse. We're simply different. We should celebrate that. Each offering what is innately their special talent and perspective. Share with each other what we each bring to the table. Men as men. Women as women. Not stereptyped-- men can be care-givers; women can be astro-physcisits, or any combination in between. I wonder if you are correct that many feminists indeed have no sense of humor. If so, thats sad. Life without laughter is an unlived life, in my view. But according to Bill, (and perhaps he's correct), its all an illusion anyway;) Kristy --- On Tue, 10/5/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 8:34 AM Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Yes Mike I meant mouse . This is another word I always get wrong and tend to say mice instead of mouse. Thanks for the correction and not getting an offense. Mayka --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:28 Thank you, Mayka. I'm most definitely one man and not mice (I think you meant the singular 'mouse') : ) Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:58:08 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Maria, Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were insincere. Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which is fine. Maria-- you do have some issues about me. Your behavior is inappropriate, beit attachment, or passive aggresive. Your feelings about me are yours. But less than sly slurs reflect on you. Move on.. Be well.. K --- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!! --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34 Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Bill, I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 5:14 PM Anthony, I’m disappointed you’re disappointed with Mayka for being disappointed with TNH….Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:32 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mayka, I am disappointed that you are disappointed with TNH. Though I know very little about it, I believe, from what the little I have heard, that TNH is better than many Christian establishments. But I may be wrong. Anyway, if you are fed up with one thing, move on to another. Don't complain. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 9:51 PM Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5503 (20101004) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, I don't think Mayka is insincere, nor did she misspell your name on purpose. It was a typo. Mayka is very conscientious. Please don't take offense. Or I will cry under my pillow. By the way you also call her Maria by mistake. Anthony --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 11:45 PM Maria, Your comments here demonstrate that your earlier post to me apologizing were insincere. Again, you choose not to mention me by name, which is fine. Maria-- you do have some issues about me. Your behavior is inappropriate, beit attachment, or passive aggresive. Your feelings about me are yours. But less than sly slurs reflect on you. Move on.. Be well.. K --- On Tue, 10/5/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 9:09 AM For the kind of reaction that lady had over a miss spell name...start to understand your dislike of femenism. SOS!!! --- On Tue, 5/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 15:34 Kristy, Hmm, kinda. Most women I've met who claim to be 'feminists' seem to have a severe lack of humour. I can appreciate that that is only anecdotal evidence but it seems to be a consistent theme. Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 12:26:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Are you then saying that there is a cause of pervasive disappointment? Could a way to escape pervasive disappointment? Only if one has pervasive deluded expectations? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jane ch...@... wrote: One is tempted to generalize that the nature of living is pervasive disappointment. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: I am disappointed you are disappointe I am disappointed that Mayka is disappointed with TNH. ad infinitum. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
TNH = Thich Nhat Hanh --- On Mon, 4/10/10, DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca wrote: From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 15:31 I'm sorry, but what is TNH? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.   When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism.   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.  Mayka  --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33  Kristy,  You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.  Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, I like the way you wrote that the Moderator who didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God was the former Moderator. : ) Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, You wrote: And... you just lost the thread. Godwin's Law applies equally to neo-Nazis as to Hitler. It would be more like rejecting anything German (or, say, rejecting socialism because of the name National Socialists.) Firstly, Godwin's Law refers to the inevitable reference to Hitler as a fallacious attack against an opponent in an online debate. I wasn't attacking you but was merely illustrating how the mind set of an extreme racist (a neo-Nazis) is something I'm gladly ignorant of. Furthermore, I'm not sure how I could have lost the thread when the author (Kristy) of the point I was commenting on agreed with me. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, Whoa! Steady on there, Tiger. You may have missed I put a smiley face (something I'm usually loathe to do) at the end of the sentence to indicate nothing snidey was intended. Having said that, if your previous Moderator and your church don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, then doesn't that not only put you outside of the mainstream, but outside of Christianity full-stop? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hi ED: How are you keeping?. I don't fully understand your statement. Can you elaborate a little bit more?. I know I tend to use a lot the And this is to point it out that that specific experience is personal to myself and anyone else. It's an I free from I!. Still a casual zen practicioner and less and less zen buddhist practicioner. Nice to hear from you. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 16:05 Hi Mayka, Welcome to the real world of humans, whose intrinsic non-Buddha nature (as it has evolved) is self-interest. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote: Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. My god, that is disingenuous... Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them. You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's bad. It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not my experience of religion, and it never will be. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.   When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism.   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.  Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33  Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, I'm an equal opportunity critic. I'm happy to throw them all into the same basket : ) Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it.2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike: In spite of being by nature a very passionate character with strong temperament, I don't agree with any violence method or in whatever way that is showed. The same if that is verbal, physical or psycological. I have enough hard work to tame myself to waste time and getting into situations in which all hard work done gets destroyed in a matter of seconds because of succumbing into a situation, provocation, dissapointment.Trust me Mike that aggression is not the way unless your life is an stake. I mean by that if someone comes with a knife to kill you then why should you allow to be killed by someone. Allowing someone to kill us with a banana smile in the face while we fall down death on the floor will be very silly . However, all this business hatred it doesn't make much sense to me. Apart from the great impopularity of the last Pope the UK resents having been expulsed by the catholic church centuries ago. There are political implications. Even if the Pope would have been a goody goody one such as TNH, the result would have been the same. Politics and religion competition between different christian denominations are notorious through history. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 17:28 Thanks Mayka, reading you loud and clear! Just one thing. I think that aggresive and destructive criticism can sometimes be a good thing. The recent demonstrations in London against the Popes visit there spring to mind. Here is the head of a religious organisation that systematically brushed under the carpet instances of child rape in order to preserve its good name. Shame. And what does he say in his address? (are you listening DP?) He compares unbelief in faith to the rise of Hitlerism in Germany. Wanker! He should be locked up. I'm serious. Mike From: maria818448 flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:04:23 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike again: I'm writing to your from the zen forum website. Some of the posting from the zen fourm went missed out such as this one from you. My previous post was pointing out about very aggresive and destructive criticism. That kind of criticism in which one just shouts anger out to his/her object of dissapointment. I certainly agree with you and criticism is necessary the fact that TNH himself and his institutions don't handle well criticism makes even stronger my point. When a person has a difference of opinion and makes critics to the institution they're good enough to ignore you completely and let you on the sideAnd that of course is very irritating and can lead to anger later on. In religion for as long you are in the same flow one is ok but as soon one starts to thinking by oneselve alone...or say something contrary to the established power in the institutionWoooW!!!. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Gentlemen, :) Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now I who has lost the thread. I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making a different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive. I see now that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this forum. I will take my own advice and move on. I have no problem accepting both atheists and those who practice faith-based religions. I don't think atheists are ignorant of faith. That was not my point. My point was-- and is-- perhaps people of faith are guided by something other than facts, whereas atheists can, and often do debate religion from an analytical or logic perspective. You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so why try? I'm of the boring Can't we all just along school Silly me.. Kristy --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear? Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. My god, that is disingenuous... Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them. You essentially said I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's bad. It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not my experience of religion, and it never will be. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, I wrote: Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. You wrote: You were essentially implying that religious belief was no different from being a neo-nazi. I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive. That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have said I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester etc to make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well... Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
How easy is to manipulate the ones who are asking to be manipulated because of their need of depending upon someone else words and not as much by acknowledging, facing, accepting and embracing what is in them. God, Buddha, Jesus Heart is in each inhalation and each exhalation I do in awareness of. --- On Mon, 4/10/10, DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca wrote: From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 16:46 But it's a scattershot technique being employed against all religion. Religious people can point out that they support the theory of evolution and that they condemn the cover-up by the Catholic Church and they still get all religions are equally corrupt and wrong. It would be like saying all industry was evil and corrupt because of the actions of the oil industry. (Perhaps it is. Perhaps all religion is wrong. However, making broad generalizations does not prove that). --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.  Hi Mike and Everyone!  If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows.   When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism.   I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.  Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33  Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mayka, I am disappointed that you are disappointed with TNH. Though I know very little about it, I believe, from what the little I have heard, that TNH is better than many Christian establishments. But I may be wrong. Anyway, if you are fed up with one thing, move on to another. Don't complain. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 9:51 PM Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Anthony: I'm under the impression that Mike is not the type of person who is afraid to speak up his mind when he has to. He is an strong man and not a mice. He doesn't live upon anyone sayings but he mades from the sayings his own sayings through the practice of zen = Direct experience with life. But I don't know as all this is just an impression in the same way as you have your own. Mayka --- On Mon, 4/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 23:43 Mike, I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and vice versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other instances. The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is because you live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say something, you will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you. Anthony --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM Mayka, It goes way beyond mere disappontment in any established religious institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a free pass from criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable behaviours etc. What is it about religion that can claim I'm offended as a valid argument against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd probably think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the institutionalised cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church.. Mike From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Hi Mike and Everyone! If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious institution whether that dissapointment was in Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, etc, etc institutions: and afterwards acts as a destructor towards the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't sound a very wise way of doing towards oneself. I certainly include myself in this unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment in the TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never as irrespetuos or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly behaviour in front of Christianity. This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the instituions established but just to the ones who carries away such violent shows. When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was me all the way alone who built up a pedestal to that institution. It was me who caused herself the dissapointment for building a pedestal of holiness, peaceto the institution. They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing this within myself I am now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced in the walk of zen buddhism. I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because I never built up a pedestal to the instituion!. And so my experience was always healthy and positive. It was positive because I never put that instituion in a pedestal. I saw it for what it was. And so I could get all the benefit from it and never the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it. Mayka --- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33 Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Mike, Do you mean feminists here? If so-- why? Do you honestly believe you can generalize with such broad strokes ? (pun intended);) k --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:36 AM ED, ... and you can also throw the feminazis in with them, too. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:25:12 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. Mike, shouldn't you be granting equal time to neo-zionazis? ;-) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy - she said that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Good Morning Mike, Excellent point. You're right. Thanks for clarifying that. :) K --- On Sun, 10/3/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 4:33 AM Kristy, You wrote: If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once believers who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Hmmm.. I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting intricacies in quotes. Theology is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point was that these people were gloating over knowing more (in fact, an average of 4 questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of religion better than all those who practise it. These were questions like what religion was Mother Theresa, and while it's shocking that many people didn't know that, in terms of religion it's the equivalent of what year did Columbus sail is to history. I'm unclear why this is so troublesome for you.. Personally, I love Bill Mahr. He is not just an atheist--he is militant! (So much so that I am reminded of Shakespeare's.. 'I think thou doth protest too much). He is soo focused on denying God and religion that I wonder if somewhere there is a dormant longing for a faith-based practice. Perhaps there was some deep disappoinment or betrayal in his youth. Or: It sells well and it has become part of his brand as a comic, which is his livlihood. Regardless, he does speak intelligently about scriptures and religious histories. Yet, he seems unwilling to even acknowledge or listen to other intelligent ideas. For example, he makes great fun of Mormons. I am not Mormon, but I have a home in UT with many very Mormon neighbors. They are very nice people, and don't even have green heads amidst their magic underwear, (to quote Bill). Larry King had President Kimball on his program many times to talk about Mormon views on a variety of world issues. Yet when Larry told Bill what a thoughtful, intelligent and kind man he was, Bill's eyes opened wide in disbelief with a , Really?? And a doubting shake of his head. He cannot reconcile intellect and rational thought with faith. Insisting there must be one or the other, but they cannot coexist. So, many atheists pride themselves on their analytical knowledge, but they simply cannot valuie the insight those with faith have. For many, faith means they have little need to be caught up in facts. They listen to their inner guide. Why get so riles about their knowledge? If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they are ignorant about. Live and let live K --- On Fri, 10/1/10, DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca wrote: From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, October 1, 2010, 10:37 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Thanks for the reply. It's probably difficult, if not impossible, to keep religion out of politics in the sense that politicians have personal beliefs that may impact on their personal decision making. However, we in the west mostly live in secular societies and overt religious decisions should stay the hell (excuse the pun) out of legislative decisions that affect all citizens. Well, I don't know how far that can go. People talk about taxing churches where the ministers make overt political statements. Couldn't that have been used to suppress Martin Luther King? As well, on the international scene and I think of Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, whose faith has sustained them. Dennis Kucinich is another example of someone whose faith (Roman Catholic with a bit of existentialism thrown in) has resulted in progressive politics. the abolitionists were often religious (Quakers, etc). I object to your subject line, because in my (admittedly short) years as a church goer I have never, ever been told not to think. Quite the opposite, in fact. And it's not like I go to a small new age Christian church, but one of the mainline churches in Canada. I'd also argue with you over the point about atheists knowing the answers to a religious survey but not understanding the intricacies of theology. If someone doesn't know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount they sure as hell (there I go again) don't understand the intricacies of theology. Mike. I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting intricacies in quotes. Theology is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point was that these people were gloating over knowing more (in fact, an average of 4 questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of religion better than all those who practise it. These were questions like what religion was Mother Theresa, and while it's shocking that many people didn't know that, in terms of religion it's the equivalent of what year did Columbus sail is to history. From: DP wookielife...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 23:16:46 Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego  Well, there are ways that politics and religion/spirituality intersect that are (for me) fruitful and interesting
Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
DP, Not sure how you could be personally offended by a criticism of theology. Actually, I think all this being 'offended' by religious folk is a bit rich coming from people who don't blink an eye to tell gays they're an abomination or women who have abortions are murderers etc etc etc. Suck it up. I also think you misunderstood me aout that survey. I don't think purported Christians can understand the intricacies of theology when they don't even know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount. That indicates to me that Christians are told what theological dogmas to believe without much independant inquiry. To me that's dangerous especially they get into our schools and systems of government (hence the topic headline above). Mike From: DP wookielife...@yahoo.ca To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 2 October, 2010 1:37:46 Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote: DP, Thanks for the reply. It's probably difficult, if not impossible, to keep religion out of politics in the sense that politicians have personal beliefs that may impact on their personal decision making. However, we in the west mostly live in secular societies and overt religious decisions should stay the hell (excuse the pun) out of legislative decisions that affect all citizens. Well, I don't know how far that can go. People talk about taxing churches where the ministers make overt political statements. Couldn't that have been used to suppress Martin Luther King? As well, on the international scene and I think of Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, whose faith has sustained them. Dennis Kucinich is another example of someone whose faith (Roman Catholic with a bit of existentialism thrown in) has resulted in progressive politics. the abolitionists were often religious (Quakers, etc). I object to your subject line, because in my (admittedly short) years as a church goer I have never, ever been told not to think. Quite the opposite, in fact. And it's not like I go to a small new age Christian church, but one of the mainline churches in Canada. I'd also argue with you over the point about atheists knowing the answers to a religious survey but not understanding the intricacies of theology. If someone doesn't know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount they sure as hell (there I go again) don't understand the intricacies of theology. Mike. I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting intricacies in quotes. Theology is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point was that these people were gloating over knowing more (in fact, an average of 4 questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of religion better than all those who practise it. These were questions like what religion was Mother Theresa, and while it's shocking that many people didn't know that, in terms of religion it's the equivalent of what year did Columbus sail is to history. From: DP wookielife...@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 23:16:46 Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego  Well, there are ways that politics and religion/spirituality intersect that are (for me) fruitful and interesting. The debate over Obama's old minister, for example, could have led to a mainstream introduction to Liberation Theology. Or we could talk about Creation Care, the Evangelical environmental movement. Instead, there are constant threads about keeping religion out of politics, and how atheists are smarter, more moral and more compassionate than religious people. The latest has been about how atheists did better than religiouis people on a quiz about religion. I thought the quiz was superficial, and that just because the atheists knew the answers they didn't know the intricacies of theology. Of course, I was ridiculed for even arguing that theology was complex. So yes, some hurt feelings and envy over the people who have the truth. but also frustration because I think that it's our emphasis on materialism (in all senses of the word) that causes a lot of the world's problems. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Hi DP, Could you elaborate on this a bit more: As well, I am frustrated that the section of the political forum dedicated to religion is dominated by the atheists. Thanks, Mike From: DP wookielifeday@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 7:58:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego  I appreciate your comments, and your story. That is strange, and yet not uncommon from what I've heard. OTOH, it's a valuable metaphor for how we experience the world. We
