Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-04 Thread Chris Austin-Lane
I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance,
is not reality.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.comwrote:



 *I'm not an illusion.  The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense
 in me.
 *
 --- On *Thu, 4/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net* wrote:


 From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 0:09



  Aren't we all!

 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane
 Sent from a cell phone

 On Nov 3, 2010, at 16:17, Anthony Wu 
 wu...@yahoo.com.sghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wu...@yahoo.com.sg
 wrote:

 Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual
 significant.

 Anthony

 --- On *Wed, 3/11/10, 
 billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org
 billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org
 * wrote:


 From: 
 billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org
 billsm...@hhs1963.orghttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org
 
 Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 To:
 http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com
 Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.comhttp://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM


 Ed,

 My comments are embedded below:

 [Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a
 view
 to clarify its meaning:
 Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
 o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
 [Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
 an experience, it is an illusion.

 o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
 experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
 [Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

 o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
 mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
 [Bill!] An illusion.

 [Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your
 face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a
 peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
 experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
 viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
 creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of
 these
 have a spiritual significance.

 ...Bill!


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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-04 Thread Maria Lopez
Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a 
massive illusion.


--- On Thu, 4/11/10, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 10:03


  



I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, is 
not reality.  


On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:








I'm not an illusion.  The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in me.

--- On Thu, 4/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 0:09





  


Aren't we all!

Thanks, 
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 3, 2010, at 16:17, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:









Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM


  

Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:
Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
[Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
an experience, it is an illusion.

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] An illusion.

[Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your
face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a
peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these
have a spiritual significance.

...Bill! 


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5586 (20101102) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com















Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-04 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me
too is a massive illusion. --M

M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or
an act of faith?  --E




 I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual
significance, is not reality.  --C

Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursive mind.
One would be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'.   --E



 I'm not an illusion.  The only thing that is an illusion is the
nonsense in me.  --M

Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What about
the good in you? Is it illusory too?   --E




 Aren't we all!  --C

We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as illusory.

For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are
illusory are acts of faith.  --E



 Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual
significant.  --A

Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill
that way?  --E








Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-04 Thread Maria Lopez
ED:
 
Wouldn't be more practical and much more of a shortcut looking into yourself 
and see what is there?.  Why do you want to know what is in me and not what is 
in you?.  
 
I don't understand very well your question: is that how you actually 
experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? .  It sounds a 
nonsense question.  A kind of entanglement of words and concepts.  This is what 
one gets when depends upon the wikipedia dictionary and other definitions 
sources but not as much as within resources.  Repeating what you hear won't do 
the trick either.
 
Mayka
 
--- On Thu, 4/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 4 November, 2010, 15:46


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me too is a 
 massive illusion. --M
M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception or an act 
of faith?  --E


 I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual significance, 
 is not reality.  --C 
Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursive mind. One would 
be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'.   --E

 I'm not an illusion.  The only thing that is an illusion is the nonsense in 
 me.  --M
Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What about the 
good in you? Is it illusory too?   --E


 Aren't we all!  --C
We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as illusory.
For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are illusory are 
acts of faith.  --E

 
 Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual 
 significant.  --A
Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill that 
way?  --E


 






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-04 Thread ED


Mayka,

I am sorry about that. The contents and the intent of my questions are
not clearly stated, and so I withdraw the questions. I am quite certain
this issue will raise its head again in the near future.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:

 Wouldn't be more practical and much more of a shortcut looking into
yourself and see what is there?.  Why do you want to know what is in me
and not what is in you?.

 I don't understand very well your question: is that how you actually
experience yourself or is it a conception or an act of faith? It sounds
a nonsense question. kind of entanglement of words and concepts. This is
what one gets when depends upon the wikipedia dictionary and other
definitions sources but not as much as within resources.  Repeating what
you hear won't do the trick either.

 Mayka



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@ wrote:

  Thanks for clarification Chris. Definetely in that respect all in me
too is a massive illusion. --M
 M, is that how you actually experience yourself or is it a conception
or an act of faith? --E
 

  I meant my idea of myself, especially as having some spiritual
significance, is not reality.  --C
 Conceptions are just conceptions, conjured up by the discursiveÂ
mind. One would be deluded to *believe* them to be 'true' or 'not true'.
--E
 
  I'm not an illusion.  The only thing that is an illusion is the
nonsense in me.  --M
 Do you *really* experience the nonsense in you as 'illusory'? What
about the good in you? Is it illusory too?  --E

 
  Aren't we all!  --C
 We may or may not experience ourselves and/or others as
illusory.
 For the over 99.%, stating that they themselves or others are
illusory are acts of faith.  --E
 

  Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual
significant.  --A
 Wouldn't it be illusory to *believe* you if we didn't experience Bill
that way?  --E
 




RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-03 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM


  



Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:
Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
[Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
an experience, it is an illusion.

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] An illusion.

[Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your
face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a
peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these
have a spiritual significance.

...Bill! 


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5586 (20101102) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com











RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-03 Thread BillSmart
Anthony, For once I agree with you!  …Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:18 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  


Bill Smart himself is also an illusion. Don't atttach any spiritual significant.

 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 3/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 3 November, 2010, 12:34 PM

  

Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:
Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
[Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
an experience, it is an illusion.

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] An illusion.

[Bill!] Viewing a sunset is an experience. Feeling warm rain fall on your
face is an experience. Hearing birds sing is an experience. Tasting a
peach is an experience. Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
experience. The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these
have a spiritual significance.

...Bill! 


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5586 (20101102) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com http://www.eset.com/ 



 





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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-02 Thread ED




Related phrases:   work experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:work+experiencedefl=ensa=\
Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAQQowMoAAexperience rating
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:experience+ratingdefl=ens\
a=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAUQowMoAQuser experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:user+experiencedefl=ensa=\
Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAYQowMoAgout of body experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:out+of+body+experiencedefl\
=ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAcQowMoAwoutofbody
experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:outofbody+experiencedefl=e\
nsa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAgQowMoBAnear death
experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:near+death+experiencedefl=\
ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAkQowMoBQneardeath
experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:neardeath+experiencedefl=e\
nsa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAoQowMoBgexperience points
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:experience+pointsdefl=ens\
a=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAsQowMoBwjimi hendrix
experience
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:jimi+hendrix+experiencedef\
l=ensa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CAwQowMoCA



Definitions of experience on the Web:
* go or live through; We had many trials to go through; he saw
action in Viet Nam * know: have firsthand knowledge of states,
situations, emotions, or sensations; I know the feeling!; have you
ever known hunger?; I have lived a kind of hell when I was a drug
addict; The holocaust survivors have lived a nightmare; I lived
through two divorces * go through (mental or physical states or
experiences); get an idea; experience vertigo; get nauseous;
receive injuries; have a feeling * the accumulation of knowledge
or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities;
a man of experience; experience is the best teacher * feel:
undergo an emotional sensation or be in a particular state of mind; She
felt resentful; He felt regret * have: undergo; The stocks had a
fast run-up * an event as apprehended; a surprising experience;
that painful experience certainly got our attention
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\
3Fs%3Dexperiencesa=Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CBYQpAMoAAusg=AFQj\
CNFSg0kV5pL_-F2as_Jr-2x4230giw

* Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in
or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in
or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience
aligns it closely with the concept of experiment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiencesa=\
Xei=_iHQTOKLFo3AsAPhuMHtAQved=0CBcQpAMoAQusg=AFQjCNF6uh8qq2GG8pWzTL9i\
sh-R6MW1hQ

Bill wrote:

 [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not
based
on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience.


Bill,

Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:

Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?

o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had
a mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?

--ED




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed,

 [Bill! from an earlier post] Tasting the peach with your whole being
is
EVERYTHING. It will save you, your friends, loved ones, all of humanity
and
all sentient beings.

 [Ed} That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory
conceptions, feelings and experiences.)

 [Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion! It is not
based
on conceptions or feelings. It is based on experience.

 ...Bill!






RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-02 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

My comments are embedded below:

[Ed] Questions, as usual, to ask oneself concening 'experience', with a view
to clarify its meaning:
Can the following be classified as kosher/halal experiences?
o  A pentecostal Christian who has had a born-again experience?
[Bill!] My opinion is that being born-again in the Christian context is not
an experience, it is an illusion.

o  Tony Blair's sister-in-law who recently reported a transcendental
experience in Qum, Iran - and converted to Islam?
[Bill!] Again, this is not an experience, this is an illusion.

o  A Jewish woman whom I encountered in a group some years ago, who had a
mystical experience of Allah and converted to Islam?
[Bill!]  An illusion.

[Bill!]  Viewing a sunset is an experience.  Feeling warm rain fall on your
face is an experience.  Hearing birds sing is an experience.  Tasting a
peach is an experience.  Smelling a dead dog rotting on the highway is an
experience.  The placing of any significance other than Just THIS! on the
viewing, feeling, hearing, tasting or smelling of any of these things is
creating illusions - and this certainly includes believing that any of these
have a spiritual significance.

...Bill!
 

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database 5586 (20101102) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread Maria Lopez
ED;
 
I understand.  Sitting down by oneself requires to have a very strong will. It 
doesn't come easy to me either.  In fact still need from my sangha once a 
week sitting down with them in order to keep daily discipline.  I take my hat 
to everyone here in the forum who can do this by themselves alone.  
 
It's not a good idea to sit down having an expectation of some kind as for 
instance the one you are pointing out: realising Buddha Nature.  There is no 
realisation of Buddha Nature.  That is a notion.   There is interconnection, a 
sense of non separation with the rest of life.  If I would be having a purpose 
when I sit down, the flow of the present moment would be completely loose.  
It's in that flow that many miracles occur.  I'm afraid not be very good to 
explain.  This is why I encourage you to try yourself.  Amongst many benefits 
there is the one of enhancement of the health and well being not just in me but 
also my surroundings.
 
Mind that this is just my personal experience and not necessarily anybody else 
experience.   
Mayka
 
 
--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 0:06


  





 
Mayka,
Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha Nature.
Why do you do zazen?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


ED;
Why don't you do zazen?
Mayka


 





 
Mayka,
Why do you do zazen?
--ED
 






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread ED


Mayka,

We are flogging a dead horse.

From *my* perspective there is no difference between what you (and Bill
and others) say, and what I say.

The difference is one of deep orientation: You and Bill and others are
(unconsciously) steeped in the fixated and contentious Western
Judeo-Christian mind-sets of right/wrong and 'only one way'.

I used to be like that too four decades ago, but without any effort on
my part, this rigid mind-set began to fall away, thanks to my exposure
to Buddhism, Zen, Eastern perspectives and other thing, and I have
little difficulty reconciling seemingly conflicting positions.

Since we do not seem to be able to communicate, I may limit my comments
and responses - provided I possess the will power to do so. ;-)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


ED;   I understand.  Sitting down by oneself requires to have a very
strong will. It doesn't come easy to me either.  In fact still need from
my sangha once a week sitting down with them in order to keep daily
discipline.  I take my hat to everyone here in the forum who can do this
by themselves alone. It's not a good idea to sit down having an
expectation of some kind as for instance the one you are pointing out:
realising Buddha Nature.  There is no realisation of Buddha Nature. 
That is a notion.   There is interconnection, a sense of non separation
with the rest of life.  If I would be having a purpose when I sit down,
the flow of the present moment would be completely loose.  It's in that
flow that many miracles occur.  I'm afraid not be very good to explain. 
This is why I encourage you to try yourself.  Amongst many benefits
there is the one of enhancement of the health and well being not just in
me but also my surroundings.   Mind that this is just my personal
experience and not necessarily anybody else experience.Mayka
   Mayka, Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha
Nature. Why do you do zazen? --ED   --- In
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED; Why don't you do zazen? Mayka


   Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED 


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread ED


Bill,

I regard everything you, I, Mayka, I and others say as 'illusory', but
one has to do *something* to pass the time of day before the grim reaper
arrives. ;-)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed,

 In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, those feelings you got
reading
 books on Buddhism are only illusions. You'll eventually need to drop
the
 attachments you have to these.

 …Bill!




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread ED


Bill,

That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory
conceptions, feelings and experiences.)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed,

 Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING. It will save
your
 friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings.

 …Bill!





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread ED


Mayka,

Do you sit at all?   If yes, do you sit alone or with a group?  On the
average, for how many hours per day do you sit? Does your sitting help
you control your emotionality? Does it assist you in developing
humility, or cultivating a sensitivity to others' feelings?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


ED:   Your intelectual sounds pretty thirsty and hungry.  Could it be a
cause for you to feel so frustated? .  Point of sitting down:  to stop
the mental bzzz!!!   Mayka 


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread Maria Lopez
ED:
 
Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?.  
 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 14:07


  





Mayka,
Do you sit at all?   If yes, do you sit alone or with a group?  On the average, 
for how many hours per day do you sit? Does your sitting help you control your 
emotionality? Does it assist you in developing humility, or cultivating a 
sensitivity to others' feelings?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:












ED:
 
Your intelectual sounds pretty thirsty and hungry.  Could it be a cause for you 
to feel so frustated? .  Point of sitting down:  to stop the mental bzzz!!!
 
Mayka
 






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread ED


Mayka,

The 'experience' of answering the questions will be be your reward. ;-)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:

 Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?.

 Mayka





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread Maria Lopez
He he...Good try!.  But not.  

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 16:10


  





Mayka,
The 'experience' of answering the questions will be be your reward. ;-)
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:
  
 Will I get paid after responding your questionnaire?.  
  
 Mayka
 






RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I got them on the website.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 11:15 AM


  



Anthony,

I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t 
noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you.

How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do 
you go to the website?

I’ll look into it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill,

This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c 
per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for 
that?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM

Siska,

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior 
sentence as ‘experience’. 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is 
an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are 
part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. 
Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to 
them. 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's

In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

[Bill! from an earlier post] Tasting the peach with your whole being is
EVERYTHING. It will save you,  your friends, loved ones, all of humanity and
all sentient beings. 

[Ed} That is merely an assertion (which might be based on illusory
conceptions, feelings and experiences.)

[Bill!] Is not 'merely' an assertion, it is an assertion!  It is not based
on conceptions or feelings.  It is based on experience.

...Bill!
 
 

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database 5583 (20101101) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-11-01 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

I also got some duplicates via email

If you see another one let me know immediately.

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 5:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Bill,
 
I got them on the website.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 11:15 AM
  
Anthony,

I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t 
noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you.

How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do 
you go to the website?

I’ll look into it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill,

This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c 
per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for 
that?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM

Siska,

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior 
sentence as ‘experience’. 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is 
an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are 
part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. 
Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to 
them. 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's

In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread siska_cen
[Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post. Perhaps that was a 
badword. What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the onlything 
you have. When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape,you have that 
experience. When you read someone's else's account of tastinga grape, you 
experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do notexperience tasting a 
grape. Both the experience of tasting a grape and theexperience of reading 
about tasting a grape have equal value in and ofthemselves

I felt weird reading the word 'value', this explains it, clearly.

siska
-Original Message-
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:01:17 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Ed,

My responses are embedded below:

[Ed} When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no?
[Bill!]  I assume by 'intrinic [sic] wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or
'Original Mind'.  If that's so, then I disagree with you - at least that's
not why I read.  I read to gain knowledge.  I read the same reason I am on
this forum and why I discuss things with other people.  I want to hear about
their experience, what they think and what they believe.  This does not
'awaken' my Buddha Mind.   In fact if anything these intellectual activities
might serve to further obscure it.  That would happen if I started forming
attachments to what I'm reading or have read.  To manifest Buddha Mind I
only have to DO nothing, I just have to BE.
  
[Ed] One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates
with them, no?
[Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post.  Perhaps that was a bad
word.  What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the only
thing you have.  When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape,
you have that experience.  When you read someone's else's account of tasting
a grape, you experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do not
experience tasting a grape.  Both the experience of tasting a grape and the
experience of reading about tasting a grape have equal value in and of
themselves.

...Bill! 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

Siska,

 I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling
something and only reading about it.


Bill,

And, what is the signifance of this (personally-experienced) difference?


 There is absolutely the experience of reading. That's yours, and that
might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.
That's the goal of good writing, to communicate experience (or
thoughts).

 You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you
actually jump into deep water you really don't˜know swimming. Read
'know' in the prior sentence as 'experience'.



 Experience is what's important, not just 'knowing'.

One's experience is important to whom and why?



 Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity.

And what does one conclude from that?



 Experience is living.

Is that the way it 'should' be for everyone - or do they have a choice?



 Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small
insignificant piece, in my opinion.

OK, it's a subjective personal truth.



  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are
attached to them.

 ...Bill!

Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to
themselves?

So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else?

--ED





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 31, 2010, at 7:42, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to 
 themselves?
 
 
I certainly do not seem to; sometimes I know what is important to me,  
sometimes even that is mysterious. I have had very poor results to directly 
shift the priorities of my living.  Fortunately, what i think/feel is important 
is not that important. What I do is what is important to me, and I have much 
more luck, say picking up a piece of paper on the floor and tossing it in the 
recycle bin than I do have in becoming a person that finds cleanliness 
important. Too many arguments with various thoughts and remembered emotions 
there, but i can pick up one item. 

 So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else?
 

Well, we are all one. 

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed, My responses are embedded below:


[Ed]  When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no?
[Bill!]   I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or
'Original Mind'.



[ED]  No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized
'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be.

I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the
light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth
he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten.

Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys'
books on the Buddha's Teachings.

  That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of
Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually
what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:


  Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important
to themselves?

 I certainly do not seem to; sometimes I know what is important to me, 
sometimes even that is mysterious. I have had very poor results to
directly shift the priorities of my living.  Fortunately, what i
think/feel is important is not that important. What I do is what is
important to me, and I have much more luck, say picking up a piece of
paper on the floor and tossing it in the recycle bin than I do have in
becoming a person that finds cleanliness important. Too many arguments
with various thoughts and remembered emotions there, but i can pick up
one item.  In any intant it is impossible to tell for certain
whether a person is acting from his own free will, what his motivations
are, or what unconscious fixations, compulsions and programs are driving
him.   Nevertheless, in our society today, we tend to grant people the
autonomy to do their own thing and arrive at their own insights in the
fullness of time.   So, what if they are 'attached'?What
business is that of anyone else?
 Well, we are all one.   Thanks,   Chris Austin-Lane   We are all one
what?  The Buddha did say: Work out your own salvation with diligence.
Thanks, ED   


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Maria Lopez










ED:
PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes expressed 
humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good intentions.
 
Mayka: What kind of brutal truthfulness are you refering to?. Sincerely don't 
know what are you talking about.  
 

--- On Sat, 30/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 16:39


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Thanks ED.  I appreciate your kind words and understanding.  
Mayka, thanks to you too; I feel happy too now that we are attempting to 
communicate with each other.
 
 Your tolerance says a lot of good about you.
The explanation maybe a lot simpler than 'tolerance': It may be more like 
'indifference', as generally speaking, with men at least, the entire 
emotional/endocrine system tends to wind down and mellow with age.
 
 However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from temperamental 
 tantrums specially when real communication shades away. It's fair that you 
 know this about me so that you don't get by surprise and in nappies! 
  
 Mayka
Don't worry, Mayka, just the be way you are: Your spontaneity, fullness of 
feeling and truthfulness bring life to this forum.
Thanks,  ED
PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes expressed 
humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good intentions.
 
 Bill,
 What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I  see a person merely  expressing her thoughts, feelings 
 and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.
 Back off?  Me?  I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand 
 of me not to communicate with her.
 --ED
 PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and 
 neither did I.

 
   See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!

 
    Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it 
   now.  That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be 
   silence and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the 
   mail.  Sorry ED.  I didn't mean to harm you.   --Mayka







Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED



Mayka,

Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved
ones, or to humanity in general?

--ED




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED:
  Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point
to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself
what does it look like.Mayka 


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Maria Lopez
ED:
This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering 
peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value of the peaches.  
I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious 
fruits.
Mayka
 
--- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 19:32


  




 
Mayka,
Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or 
to humanity in general?
--ED

 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to tell 
you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it 
look like. 
 
Mayka
 






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED


Mayka,

So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:
 This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big
watering peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value
of the peaches.  I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in
the UK such a delicious fruits.
 Mayka




 Mayka,
 Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved
ones, or to humanity in general?
 --ED




 ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point
to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself
what does it look like.

 Mayka




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Maria Lopez





ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to tell 
you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it 
look like.  
Mayka
 
--- On Sat, 30/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 16:01


  





Mayka said:   You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations 
appearing in the body and in the mind.  

 
Mayka,
How can a person ever be certain that he/she is not possessed by an attachment 
or an aversion? Would not others, and epecially one's own guide (zen, spiritual 
or pychological) be more reliable judges of one's state of evolution?
Thank you,
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote:

 Hi Siska: 
   
 My experience of sitting down varies from day to day, different periods of my 
 life, of the yearThe only think that is alike is having the awareness of 
 the in and out breathing as the anchor that unites my body and mind as 
 one. It's also alike the acknowledgement of all senses working at high 
 speed.  You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations 
 appearing in the body and in the mind.  
   
 Thanks for your sharing. 
 Mayka 
 






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Maria Lopez
ED:
 
What's Buddha mind?.  What do you mean by buddha mind are for my own 
pleasure?.  Is it a new dharma am not aware of from the complementary lote 
different strokes for different folks?.  
 
Mayka
 
 
--- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 20:18


  





Mayka,
So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:
 This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering 
 peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value of the 
 peaches.  I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a 
 delicious fruits.
 Mayka

 
 Mayka,
 Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved 
 ones, or to humanity in general?
 --ED

 
 ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to 
 tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what 
 does it look like. 
 
 Mayka







Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED




Mayka,

Why do you do zazen?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED:   What's Buddha mind?.  What do you mean by buddha mind are for my
own pleasure?.  Is it a new dharma am not aware of from the
complementary lote different strokes for different folks?. Mayka

Mayka, So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own
pleasure? --EDED:
 This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big
watering peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value
of the peaches.  I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in
the UK such a delicious fruits.
 Mayka
Mayka,
 Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved
ones, or to humanity in general?
 --ED
  ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point
to tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself
what does it look like.
 Mayka



RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c 
per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for 
that?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM


  





Siska,
 
I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.
 
There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).
 
You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.
 
Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.
 
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 
  



Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska




From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 
  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Anthony Wu
ED,
 
Your highlighted words have awakened my non-wisdom mind. Do you mean you 
already knew Buddhism and zen before reading Christmas Humphrey and Alan Watts. 
Only you forgot them, but were again reminded by the two authors. You are a 
prophet.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 12:23 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed, My responses are embedded below:

[Ed]  When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially 
to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no?
[Bill!]   I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or 
'Original Mind'.
 
[ED]  No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha Mind' 
- whatever that might be. 
I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the light 
of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he had already 
possessed, but had merely forgotten.
Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys' books 
on the Buddha's Teachings.
 That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen by 
Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was being 
said, reading it aroused much joy in me.
 








Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Anthony Wu
Mayka/ED,
 
I know the value. A local pear costs you a yuan (15c). But one from Spain will 
have to be paid for, after the high counter-veiling duty, with $2.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 3:40 AM


  








ED:
This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering 
peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value of the peaches.  
I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a delicious 
fruits.
Mayka
 
--- On Sun, 31/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 19:32


  


 
Mayka,
Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved ones, or 
to humanity in general?
--ED

 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to tell 
you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what does it 
look like. 
 
Mayka
 








Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread Anthony Wu
yess.


--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 4:18 AM


  





Mayka,
So, your experiences of Buddha Mind are entirely for your own pleasure?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED:
 This summer I asked my boyfriend to bring me a pair of those big watering 
 peaches from Spain. I didn't  waste time asking him the value of the 
 peaches.  I just enjoyed eaten them since we don't have here in the UK such a 
 delicious fruits.
 Mayka

 
 Mayka,
 Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved 
 ones, or to humanity in general?
 --ED

 
 ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to 
 tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what 
 does it look like. 
 
 Mayka









Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED




Mayka,

Because I am not sufficiently motivated to realize Buddha Nature.

Why do you do zazen?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


ED; Why don't you do zazen? Mayka


   Mayka, Why do you do zazen? --ED 


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ED


Anthony,

No.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 ED,

 Your highlighted words have awakened my non-wisdom mind. Do you mean
you already knew Buddhism and zen before reading Christmas Humphrey and
Alan Watts. Only you forgot them, but were again reminded by the two
authors. You are a prophet.

 Anthony



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Ed, My responses are embedded below:

 [Ed]  When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no?


 [Bill!]  I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or
'Original Mind'.

 [ED] No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized
'Buddha Mind' - whatever that might be.
 I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like
the light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to
truth he had already possessed, but had merely forgotten.


 Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas
Humphreys' books on the Buddha's Teachings.
 That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of
Zen by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually
what was being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread ChrisAustinLane
Responses below. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 31, 2010, at 9:47, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Nevertheless, in our society today, we tend to grant people the autonomy to 
 do their own thing and arrive at their own insights in the fullness of time.

So you are saying we should grant people their autonomy, that seems fine. Your 
original statement I took as to be saying we should let people choose their own 
priorities, which i find To be difficult as priorities are not really knobs to 
be tuned so much as emergent phenomena. Honestly, in my experience one big 
factor in what the people around me work on is what I work on. When I work on 
listening intently to people, I find the world much more focused on hearing 
what I have to say. And when I work on trying to have people see the benefits 
of sitting, then I create a little anti-Zen backlash in the people around me. 

  
   So, what if they are 'attached'?
   What business is that of anyone else?
 
  Well, we are all one. 
  Thanks,
  Chris Austin-Lane
  
 We are all one what? 

Excellent koan! 

 The Buddha did say: Work out your own salvation with diligence.

We are, pretty much. 

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

Tasting the peach with your whole being is EVERYTHING.  It will save your
friends, loved ones, all of humanity and all sentient beings.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 2:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
 
Mayka,
Of what value is tasting the peach to yourself, your friends and loved
ones, or to humanity in general?
--ED

 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

ED:
 Sit down and you'll be having yourself experience here.  No much point to
tell you the taste of a peach when you can eat and taste by yourself what
does it look like. 
 
Mayka
 



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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread BillSmart
Ed,  My answers are embedded below:

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:
 I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something
and only reading about it.

And, what is the signifance of this (personally-experienced) difference?

[Bill!] I already addressed this in a follow-on companion post.  There is
only personal experience.  What other kind could there be?


 There is absolutely the experience of reading. That's yours, and that
might invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.
That's the goal of good writing, to communicate experience (or thoughts). 
 You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you
actually jump into deep water you really don't˜know swimming. Read 'know' in
the prior sentence as 'experience'. 
 Experience is what's important, not just 'knowing'.
 
One's experience is important to whom and why?

[Bill!] Maybe ‘important’ gives the wrong impression.  How about
‘Experiences are real.  Knowing is illusory.’?  You can decide for yourself
whether know the difference is important.




  Knowing or understanding is an intellectual activity.
 
And what does one conclude from that?

[Bill!] One concludes that knowing is illusory.
 


 Experience is living.
 
Is that the way it 'should' be for everyone - or do they have a choice?

[Bill!] That is the way it is for me.  Others have a choice to recognize
this or deny it.



 Intellectual activities are part of living also, but only a very small
insignificant piece, in my opinion. Most people put way too much importance
on them and as a result are attached to them.

OK, it's a subjective personal truth.

[Bill!] Yes, an observation based on personal experience.
 
 


Do persons not have a choice as to what they think/feel is important to
themselves?

[Bill!] Yes, of course.  People can think it’s important to cut themselves
or torture animals.  It’s their choice.



So, what if they are 'attached'? What business is that of anyone else?

[Bill!] It isn’t specifically anyone else’s business, unless of course they
are asking you for advise or their attachments infringe on the life of
others – like if they’re attached to the concept of God or Allah and
persecute people who don’t share their attachment.  Helping the former and
resolving issues with the latter may include trying to help them become
aware of their attachments.
...Bill!

 

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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

In my opinion, and it’s only my opinion, those feelings you got reading
books on Buddhism are only illusions.  You'll eventually need to drop the
attachments you have to these.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 11:23 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

 Ed, My responses are embedded below:
[Ed]  When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinsic wisdom-mind, no?
[Bill!]   I assume by 'intrinsic wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or
'Original Mind'.
 
[ED]  No, I do not mean 'Buddha Mind' because I have not realized 'Buddha
Mind' - whatever that might be. 
I use it in the sense that the Teachings or the Teacher can be like the
light of the sun falling on a sleeping student, awakening him to truth he
had already possessed, but had merely forgotten.
Four decades ago, that's the way I felt when I read Christmas Humphreys'
books on the Buddha's Teachings.
 That's the way I felt when I read my first book on Zen: The Spirit of Zen
by Alan Watts. Although often I did not 'understand' intellectually what was
being said, reading it aroused much joy in me.
 



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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-31 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine.  I hadn’t 
noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you.

How do you get these posts?  Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do 
you go to the website?

I’ll look into it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Bill,
 
This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c 
per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for 
that?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM
  
Siska,
 
I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.
 
There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). 
  
You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’. 
  
Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them. 
  
…Bill! 
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
  
  
Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 
  
Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread Maria Lopez
Thanks ED.  I appreciate your kind words and understanding.  Your tolerance 
says a lot of good about you.
 
However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from temperamental 
tantrums specially when real communication shades away. It's fair that you know 
this about me so that you don't get by surprise and in nappies!. 
 
Mayka
 
--- On Fri, 29/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 15:10


  





Mill,
What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and 
wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.
IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake.
Back off?   Me?   I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her demand 
of me not to communicate with her.
--ED
PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either - and 
neither did I.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:

See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!


  








Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.  That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry ED.  I 
didn't mean to harm you. 








RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread Maria Lopez
Bill;
 
I apologise.  I over-reacted and missed out the joke!
 
Mayka

--- On Sat, 30/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 3:32


  





Mayka,
 
Yes, all of this is on a public forum.  I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t 
have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told 
you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you.
 
…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 
  













Bill:

 

Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can 
have a go and participate.  Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike.  

 

Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway.

Mayka

 

 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12

  


Mayka,

My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from 
time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me.

If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says.

All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point 
things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed 
about it.

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 

I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I 
wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form 
a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all 
that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08

See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't 
mean to harm you. 




--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 

I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

Mike


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED;

 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 

Are you speaking from experience? :-)


 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 

I hear you. 


 But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both 
 better let it go. 
 Mayka

Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.

--ED


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5569 (20101027) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5573 (20101028

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread Maria Lopez
JMJM;
 
There is a way of relenting the form of the words making them come out as a 
manifestation of Buddha, Jesus, god, Ala, Krishna, universal energy of the 
heart... and that is the one of, breathing we are online!.
 
I've been having under observation myself reactions while posting to the web.  
I have noticed that when posting gets massive and try to read and answer them 
all... I start to lost all sense of synchronisation with the universe.  After 
the second post or the third or the fourththe active mind replaces the 
universal energy for mental activity.  I have also noticed that as soon as that 
is brought to the awareness plane, I stop all activity and take a break to 
breath in awareness 
for as long as it takes to restore back the energy of the practise.  
Afterewards  I'm OK again.    This simple way is beneficial alone the taming of 
the ego.  Taking care of it.  As a result the outcome brings benefit to 
everyone.    It's a continuous taming of the ego.  
 
Thanks for the opportunity of sharing.
Mayka
 
--- On Sat, 30/10/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 0:45


  



Indeed, ED.  The label for these conditions is Delusion.  

As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into form, which 
is emptiness.  So are every word posted and discussed here, including every 
alphabet that I am typing at the moment
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote: 
  


Hi JMJM,
Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are all mere 
opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 'understand' the 
teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain one is not fooling 
oneself.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming  wrote:

Hi All,

In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells us 
where to go or what to do.  Some teachers are like a mirror, it reflects the 
true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up.

Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or outwardly, 
both type of teachers do have merits.

It all depends on the I' at that moment in life.

This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions.

That's life.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote:   




On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal
given in the game of life.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:

 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane

 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.










Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread siska_cen
Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

-Original Message-
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 
 
Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 
 
Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.
 
Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 


--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24
  
Hi Mayka,
 
 
 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
 number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
 pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
 experience about the subject.  
I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.
 
 I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
 were you involved in that?. 
 
I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of 
people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially 
in the beginning, I found it really interesting

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread ED


Mayka said:   You right and there is no attachment to any of those
sensations appearing in the body and in the mind.




Mayka,

How can a person ever be certain that he/she is not possessed by an
attachment or an aversion? Would not others, and epecially one's own
guide (zen, spiritual or pychological) be more reliable judges of one's
state of evolution?

Thank you,

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote:

 Hi Siska:

 My experience of sitting down varies from day to day, different
periods of my life, of the yearThe only think that is alike is
having the awareness of the in and out breathing as the anchor that
unites my body and mind as one. It's also alike the acknowledgement of
all senses working at high speed.  You right and there is no attachment
to any of those sensations appearing in the body and in the mind.

 Thanks for your sharing.
 Mayka





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote:

 You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your
own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note
that the experience, even its memory, is your experience;

 whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or
3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the
inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience.

Bill,

When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no?



 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of
someone else's.

 ...Bill!

One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates
with them, no?

--ED





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 Thanks ED.  I appreciate your kind words and understanding.

Mayka, thanks to you too; I feel happy too now that we are attempting to
communicate with each other.



 Your tolerance says a lot of good about you.

The explanation maybe a lot simpler than 'tolerance': It may be more
like 'indifference', as generally speaking, with men at least, the
entire emotional/endocrine system tends to wind down and mellow with
age.



 However, I'd like to warn you about me that I do suffer from
temperamental tantrums specially when real communication shades away.
It's fair that you know this about me so that you don't get by surprise
and in nappies!

 Mayka

Don't worry, Mayka, just the be way you are: Your spontaneity, fullness
of feeling and truthfulness bring life to this forum.

Thanks,  ED

PS: Mayka, please don't allow my own brutal truthfulness, sometimes
expressed humorously, to bother you too much: It is driven by good
intentions.



 Bill,

 What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I  see a person merely  expressing her thoughts,
feelings and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to
do.

 Back off?  Me?  I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since
her demand of me not to communicate with her.

 --ED

 PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm
either - and neither did I.




   See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off! 
...Bill!




Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about
it now.  That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to
be silence and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the
mail.  Sorry ED.  I didn't mean to harm you.   --Mayka




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明

 Dear Mayka,

Indeed.  When we reach a level, where we could be able to differentiate 
our mental construct from true heart, our intentions could be directly 
touching the heart of others.


Otherwise, we could be just indulging our ego in the reincarnation of 
the relativities of logic and words.


Nonetheless, we still need to remind ourselves that all words, from 
everyone including Buddha, are emptiness by nature.  The key word is by 
nature.


Thank you for your sharing.
JM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 10/30/2010 4:58 AM, Maria Lopez wrote:


/JMJM;/
/ /
/There is a way of relenting the form of the words making them come 
out as a manifestation of Buddha, Jesus, god, Ala, Krishna, universal 
energy of the heart... and that is the one of, breathing we are online!./

/ /
/I've been having under observation myself reactions while posting to 
the web.  I have noticed that when posting gets massive and try to 
read and answer them all... I start to lost all sense of 
synchronisation with the universe.  After the second post or the third 
or the fourththe active mind replaces the universal energy for 
mental activity.  I have also noticed that as soon as that is brought 
to the awareness plane, I stop all activity and take a break to breath 
in awareness /
/for as long as it takes to restore back the energy of the practise.  
Afterewards  I'm OK again.This simple way is beneficial alone the 
taming of the ego.  Taking care of it.  As a result the outcome brings 
benefit to everyone.It's a continuous taming of the ego. /

//
/Thanks for the opportunity of sharing./
/Mayka/
--- On *Sat, 30/10/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
/chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 30 October, 2010, 0:45

Indeed, ED.  The label for these conditions is Delusion.

As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into
form, which is emptiness.  So are every word posted and discussed
here, including every alphabet that I am typing at the moment

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
http://www.heartchan.org  http://www.heartchan.org/


On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote:


Hi JMJM,
Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise,
they are all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework
for some to 'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one
can never be certain one is not fooling oneself.
--ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com,
Jue Miao Jing Ming  wrote:

Hi All,

In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he
tells us where to go or what to do.  Some teachers are like a
mirror, it reflects the true we, so that we get to know
ourselves, to wake us up.

Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly
or outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits.

It all depends on the I' at that moment in life.

This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions.

That's life.

:-)
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
http://www.heartchan.org  http://www.heartchan.org/

On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote:



On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a
universal
given in the game of life.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:

 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't
replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who
knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane

 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand,
it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the
difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.








Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread ChrisAustinLane
When I read a lot of Zen Enlightenment stuff, I find my sitting is then filled 
up with what i label Zen thoughts - thoughts that attempt to portray themselves 
as wisdom or as good Zen experiences. 

I personally find those to be even more obscuring than the non-Zen thoughts 
about various imagined harms that others have prepared for me, so I generally 
take their appearance to be a signal to read less and sit more. 

I haven't ever tried a month of no reading (tho I am scrupulous to not bring 
books on a sesshin), and in fact the enlightenment story in the Three Pillars 
of Zen where this (childless) couple went on a word fast leaves a continuing 
sense of horror in me. In the midst of confusion and chaos, that's it for me. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:14, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote:
 
  You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
  experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
  experience, even its memory, is your experience;
 
  whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand 
  account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or 
  fictional account of someone else's experience.
 
 Bill,
 
 When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to 
 awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no?
 
 
 
  I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of 
  someone else's. 
  
  ...Bill!
 
 One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with 
 them, no?
 
 --ED
 
  
 
 
 
 


RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

 

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

 

There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).

 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.

 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

  _  

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
 wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,


 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

My responses are embedded below:

[Ed} When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and
especially to awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no?
[Bill!]  I assume by 'intrinic [sic] wisdom-mind' you mean 'Buddha Mind' or
'Original Mind'.  If that's so, then I disagree with you - at least that's
not why I read.  I read to gain knowledge.  I read the same reason I am on
this forum and why I discuss things with other people.  I want to hear about
their experience, what they think and what they believe.  This does not
'awaken' my Buddha Mind.   In fact if anything these intellectual activities
might serve to further obscure it.  That would happen if I started forming
attachments to what I'm reading or have read.  To manifest Buddha Mind I
only have to DO nothing, I just have to BE.
  
[Ed] One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates
with them, no?
[Bill!] I used the word 'value' in my previous post.  Perhaps that was a bad
word.  What I meant to say is that experience is everything and the only
thing you have.  When you have a direct experience, like tasting a grape,
you have that experience.  When you read someone's else's account of tasting
a grape, you experience READING ABOUT tasting a grape - you do not
experience tasting a grape.  Both the experience of tasting a grape and the
experience of reading about tasting a grape have equal value in and of
themselves.

...Bill! 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

 

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

 

There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).

 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.

 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

  _  

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
 wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,


 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Chris,

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that thoughts about zen can be the most 
bothersome.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ChrisAustinLane
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 12:55 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

When I read a lot of Zen Enlightenment stuff, I find my sitting is then filled 
up with what i label Zen thoughts - thoughts that attempt to portray themselves 
as wisdom or as good Zen experiences. 

 

I personally find those to be even more obscuring than the non-Zen thoughts 
about various imagined harms that others have prepared for me, so I generally 
take their appearance to be a signal to read less and sit more. 

 

I haven't ever tried a month of no reading (tho I am scrupulous to not bring 
books on a sesshin), and in fact the enlightenment story in the Three Pillars 
of Zen where this (childless) couple went on a word fast leaves a continuing 
sense of horror in me. In the midst of confusion and chaos, that's it for me. 

Thanks,

Chris Austin-Lane

Sent from a cell phone


On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:14, ED seacrofter...@! yahoo.com 
mailto:seacrofter...@yahoo.com  wrote:


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill... wrote:

 You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
 experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
 experience, even its memory, is your experience; 

 whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand 
 account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or 
 fictional account of someone else's experience. 

Bill,

When one reads, it is not necessarily to 'learn', but also and especially to 
awaken one's own intrinic wisdom-mind, no?



 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's. 
 
 ...Bill! 

One must 'value' the accounts of others only if one oneself resonates with 
them, no?

--ED

 





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

 

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

 

There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).

 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.

 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

  _  

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
 wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,


 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

 

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

 

There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).

 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.

 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

  _  

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
 wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,


 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-30 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

 

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

 

There is absolutely the experience of reading.  That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about.  That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts).

 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming.  Read ‘know’ in the 
prior sentence as ‘experience’.

 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’.  Knowing or understanding 
is an intellectual activity.  Experience is living.  Intellectual activities 
are part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my 
opinion.  Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are 
attached to them.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Hi Bill,

 I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
 else's


In essence, aren't they the same?

siska

  _  

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  

Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
 wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,


 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Siska
Hi Mayka,
 
 
 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
 number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
 pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
 experience about the subject.  

I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.
 
 I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
 were you involved in that?. 
 
I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of 
people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially 
in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are 
being described differently due to this different backgrounds.
 
 
To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
surroundings.  which is what  sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
myself practise.  In addition.  When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
it's simply to sit down and breathe.  
 
Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something 
occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. So, these two 
are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work 
that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others 
so much.
 
 Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone 
 experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in 
 circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by 
 oneselves alone.  And a Teacher is great for that purpose.  There is also the 
 problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if 
 one doesn't have much experience in the practise.  A zen teacher doesn't do 
 the job for one.  A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to 
 uncover all the layers there
 
Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a 
must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the 
way it is in Zen.
 
 Nice talking to you
Feeling's mutual :-)
 
siska
 

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 21:12


  























Siska:
 
Reading books is educative.  Nothing wrong about reading.  A different matter 
is how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind 
of ultimate truth and things like that.   For instance a frequent experience 
I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen 
readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot 
about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject.  I 
have witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of 
that kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to 
the real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react 
as very offended.  So the reading in this case was useless as it added more 
new notions into that person mind.  Everything in life is there available to 
all of us, it depends upon us how do we use it.  That is our choice.  
 
I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the 
subject you mention : The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what 
is at each moment?.  This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: To 
be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
surroundings.  which is what  sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
myself practise.  In addition.  When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
it's simply to sit down and breathe.  
 
Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone 
experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in 
circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by 
oneselves alone.  And a Teacher is great

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread siska_cen
Hi Anthony,

It might be easier to just ask Bill, don't you think? :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 05:20:21 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska,
 
If you want to get around Bill's block on my posts, let me know. At least I can 
refer you to those Chinese surfers who are expert in avoiding government's 
blockage.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 11:25 AM


  



Siska,

You are Buddha.

If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska,

The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. 
According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his 
mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, 
west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the 
ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. 
Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If 
I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to 
hungry dogs.'

Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just 
like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM

Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. 
I don't know, did I miss anything? 

 What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
 more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)
Hello siska,
The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything 
- and even the worst!
I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.
When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:
[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara]
 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut 
 Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.
 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.
A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.
 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska
What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-)
--ED


siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 


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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Maria Lopez





Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning.  Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 
 
I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women.  It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this.    
I wouldn't know how to explain it.  Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the 
form a man?.  He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that 
all that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08


  





See Ed!  It’s more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  …Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 
  








Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.  That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry ED.  I 
didn't mean to harm you. 


 


 


 


 


--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 

  




I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

 

Mike

 




From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 


  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:







 ED;


 


 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 

 

Are you speaking from experience?  :-)

 

 

 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 

 

I hear you. 

 

 

 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here.  We both 
 better let it go. 

  Mayka

 

Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.

 

--ED

 




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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Maria Lopez
Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning.  Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 
 
Mayka



--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08


  





See Ed!  It’s more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  …Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
 
  








Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.  That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry ED.  I 
didn't mean to harm you. 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27

  




I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

 

Mike

 




From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02

  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:







 ED;

 

 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 

 

Are you speaking from experience?  :-)

 

 

 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 

 

I hear you. 

 

 

 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here.  We both 
 better let it go. 

  Mayka

 

Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.

 

--ED

 




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database 5569 (20101027) __

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http://www.eset.com

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http://www.eset.com







Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread siska_cen
Hi Mayka,

This is the first zen forum I ever joined, but I've been in other groups (which 
is not zen) and saw these people there.

 Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
 the mind in the awareness?

I think it'd be easier to describe with example. During sitting, sometimes we 
feel pain. As I am being aware of the pain, I don't see it as the body which is 
in pain or the mind which is 'feeling' the pain. I was then being aware of the 
physical sensations and the mind's reactions towards the sensations. It does 
not make sense to separate the two, or there would not be this thing called 
pain. And when there is 'no mind' or no reaction towards the physical 
sensations, then I don't know what to call it.

Something like it.

How is it in zazen? How do you be aware in your sitting?

siska

-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:42:38 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question






Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 
 
Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 
 
Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.
 
Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24


  








Hi Mayka,
 
 
 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
 number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
 pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
 experience about the subject.  

I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.
 
 I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
 were you involved in that?. 
 
I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of 
people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially 
in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are 
being described differently due to this different backgrounds.
 
 
To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
surroundings.  which is what  sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
myself practise.  In addition.  When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
it's simply to sit down and breathe.  
 
Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something 
occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Mayka,

My comment was directed towards Ed, not you.  Opening up a can of whoop-ass 
from time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me.

If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him.  See what he says.

All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not.  More to the point 
things like this should be irrelevant to you.  Why does it bother you?  Tell Ed 
about it.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning.  Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 
 
I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women.  It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this.
I wouldn't know how to explain it.  Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the 
form a man?.  He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that 
all that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08
  
See Ed!  It’s more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  …Bill!
 
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
  
  
Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.  That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry ED.  I 
didn't mean to harm you. 
 
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 
  
I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )
 
Mike
 

From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
 DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 
  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED;
 
 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 
 
Are you speaking from experience?  :-)
 
 
 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 
 
I hear you. 
 
 
 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here.  We both 
 better let it go. 
  Mayka
 
Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.
 
--ED
 




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database 5569 (20101027) __

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http://www.eset.com

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




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RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 
 
Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 
 
Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.
 
Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 


--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24
  
Hi Mayka,
 
 
 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
 number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
 pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
 experience about the subject.  
I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.
 
 I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
 were you involved in that?. 
 
I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of 
people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially 
in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are 
being described differently due to this different backgrounds.
 
 
To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
surroundings.  which is what  sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
myself practise.  In addition.  When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
it's simply to sit down and breathe.  
 
Yes, sometimes

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Maria Lopez





Bill:
 
Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can 
have a go and participate.  Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike.  
 
Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway.
Mayka
 
 
--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12


  



Mayka,

My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from 
time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me.

If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says.

All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point 
things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed 
about it.

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 

I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I 
wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form 
a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all 
that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08

See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't 
mean to harm you. 




--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 

I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

Mike


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED;

 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 

Are you speaking from experience? :-)


 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 

I hear you. 


 But as there is no real conversation, or exchange of anything here. We both 
 better let it go. 
 Mayka

Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.

--ED


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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ED


Mill,

What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings
and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.

IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake.

Back off?   Me?   I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her
demand of me not to communicate with her.

--ED

PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either
- and neither did I.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:


See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!





Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it
now.  That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be
silence and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the
mail.   Sorry ED.  I didn't mean to harm you.





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ED

Bill,
What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings
and wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.

IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake.

Back off?   Me?   I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her
demand of me not to communicate with her.

--ED

PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either
- and neither did I.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:


See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!





Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it
now.  That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be
silence and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the
mail.   Sorry ED.  I didn't mean to harm you.



Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Maria Lopez
Hi Siska:
 
My experience of sitting down varies from day to day, different periods of my 
life, of the yearThe only think that is alike is having the awareness of 
the in and out breathing as the anchor that unites my body and mind as 
one. It's also alike the acknowledgement of all senses working at high speed.  
You right and there is no attachment to any of those sensations appearing in 
the body and in the mind.  
 
Thanks for your sharing. 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 13:17


  



Hi Mayka,

This is the first zen forum I ever joined, but I've been in other groups (which 
is not zen) and saw these people there.

 Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
 the mind in the awareness?

I think it'd be easier to describe with example. During sitting, sometimes we 
feel pain. As I am being aware of the pain, I don't see it as the body which is 
in pain or the mind which is 'feeling' the pain. I was then being aware of the 
physical sensations and the mind's reactions towards the sensations. It does 
not make sense to separate the two, or there would not be this thing called 
pain. And when there is 'no mind' or no reaction towards the physical 
sensations, then I don't know what to call it.

Something like it.

How is it in zazen? How do you be aware in your sitting?

siska



From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:42:38 +0100 (BST)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  











Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 
 
Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 
 
Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.
 
Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Siska siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24


  






Hi Mayka,
 
 
 For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
 number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
 pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
 experience about the subject.  

I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.
 
 I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
 were you involved in that?. 
 
I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a 
 must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is 
 the way it is in Zen.

At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself. A 
strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much harder. 

I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her, and 
I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but is not 
me. 

Zen is all about face to face teaching. The writing is just entertainment. 
Without the practice in non-dual action, the words tend to hide the simple 
truth.   I am not talking about the sort of satori experience Bill, but sitting 
with no goal is non-dual action. Repeat it and 
eventually even one as obtuse as myself notices that non-dual action is 
commonplace, the very scaffold of living. 



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ED


On the path or off the path, with a teacher  (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal
given in  the game of life.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:

 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane


 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
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* To change settings online go to:
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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明

 Hi All,

In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells 
us where to go or what to do.  Some teachers are like a mirror, it 
reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up.


Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or 
outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits.


It all depends on the I' at that moment in life.

This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions.

That's life.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote:




On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal
given in the game of life.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, 
ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:


 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane

 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.




Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ED


Hi JMJM,

Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are
all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to
'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be certain
one is not fooling oneself.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming  wrote:

Hi All,

In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he tells
us where to go or what to do.  Some teachers are like a mirror, it
reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up.

Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or
outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits.

It all depends on the I' at that moment in life.

This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions.

That's life.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  http://www.heartchan.org
http://www.heartchan.org
On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote:


On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal
given in the game of life.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=8uo-ET8lo1HhwhEMgq7nYgt6uMd-zAe0x9R1jUVCSH\
hEug1t9U4O9vA9JNhBbiuR5dhuao3pbrhrWwlCbXcK3dk16I68Aw , ChrisAustinLane
ch...@...
/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=J0gJum0sFWXwFqvFb4w2TwiNhr4goXM2sOUPdAqG-b\
FE8XW5oBbn7HQYaKqrFVLczIXCfQ  wrote:

 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane

 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.







Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ChrisAustinLane


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 29, 2010, at 14:34, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

  but one can never be certain one is not fooling oneself.

In acting, one is not fooling one's self. In thinking, one cannot be sure. 




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明

 Indeed, ED.  The label for these conditions is Delusion.

As soon as we say or think or act, we have indulged ourselves into form, 
which is emptiness.  So are every word posted and discussed here, 
including every alphabet that I am typing at the moment


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 10/29/2010 2:34 PM, ED wrote:



Hi JMJM,

Whether these opinions/conceptions are illusory or otherwise, they are 
all mere opinions/conceptions that furnish a framework for some to 
'understand' the teacher-student relation; but one can never be 
certain one is not fooling oneself.


--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming  wrote:

Hi All,

In my limited experience, some teachers are like a tour guide, he 
tells us where to go or what to do.  Some teachers are like a mirror, 
it reflects the true we, so that we get to know ourselves, to wake us up.


Depending on whether we are the at the stage of seeking inwardly or 
outwardly, both type of teachers do have merits.


It all depends on the I' at that moment in life.

This momentary condition are what we called karmic conditions.

That's life.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 10/29/2010 11:56 AM, ED wrote:




On the path or off the path, with a teacher (zen, psychological or
spiritual) or without a teacher, one could be fooling oneself about
something or other, from one perspective or another. This is a universal
given in the game of life.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=8uo-ET8lo1HhwhEMgq7nYgt6uMd-zAe0x9R1jUVCSHhEug1t9U4O9vA9JNhBbiuR5dhuao3pbrhrWwlCbXcK3dk16I68Aw, 
ChrisAustinLane ch...@... wrote:


 At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool
yourself. A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling
yourself much harder.

 I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced
her, and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me
well but is not me.


 Thanks,
 Chris Austin-Lane

 On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@... wrote:

  Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is
still not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if
perhaps this is the way it is in Zen.







RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Ed,  Don't worry about the snake's legs, worry about the snake's powerful
body.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:14 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  


Bill, 

What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and
wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.

IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake.

Back off?   Me?   I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her
demand of me not to communicate with her.

--ED

PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either -
and neither did I.

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:


See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!

  


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.
That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence
and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry
ED.  I didn't mean to harm you. 





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Ed,  Don't worry about the snake's legs, worry about the snake's fangs.Mill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:11 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  


Mill,

What 'WHOOP-ASS'?  I jut see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and
wants - which is a natural and normal thing for a person to do.

IMO, seeing it as 'WHOOP-ASS', is like adding legs to a snake.

Back off?   Me?   I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her
demand of me not to communicate with her.

--ED

PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either -
and neither did I.

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote:


See Ed!  It's more WHOOP-ASS!  You better back off!  ...Bill!

  


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.
That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence
and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry
ED.  I didn't mean to harm you. 





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

image001.gifimage002.gif

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Mayka,

 

Yes, all of this is on a public forum.  I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t 
have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told 
you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  



Bill:

 

Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can 
have a go and participate.  Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike.  

 

Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway.

Mayka

 

 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12

  

Mayka,

My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from 
time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me.

If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says.

All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point 
things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed 
about it.

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 

I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I 
wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form 
a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all 
that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  
billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  
billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08

See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't 
mean to harm you. 




--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk  wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 

I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

Mike


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com  
wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
http://de.mc862

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
Mayka,

 

Yes, all of this is on a public forum.  I wasn’t implying that you shouldn’t 
have responded, I was just saying that what I intended to be a humorous ‘I told 
you so’ remark was addressed to Ed, not to you.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  



Bill:

 

Yes your mail was directed to ED in the public domain in which everyone can 
have a go and participate.  Your replay to ED was made above my mail to Mike.  

 

Thanks for g, you advice and view anyway.

Mayka

 

 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 14:12

  

Mayka,

My comment was directed towards Ed, not you. Opening up a can of whoop-ass from 
time to time and when it’s appropriate is fine with me.

If you think Ed is a 'male feminist' (chauvinist) tell him. See what he says.

All this should be irrelevant in this forum, but it's not. More to the point 
things like this should be irrelevant to you. Why does it bother you? Tell Ed 
about it.

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill:
Do you think so?. Thanks for the warning. Knowing this little remorse feels 
release. 

I have to say that I may well suffer from a wrong perception but I've been 
sometimes under the impression that ED has some problems with women. It felts 
as he belonged to that category of men that undervalue the capacities of a 
woman. As if the men were all pads in which women thinking is treated as 
secondary. As if he had the need to be above a woman or something like this. I 
wouldn't know how to explain it. Perhaps a bit like a feminist but in the form 
a man?. He doesn't seem to real ice that we are in a zen forum and that all 
that is irrelevant. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  
billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org  
billsm...@hhs1963.org 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 9:08

See Ed! It’s more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com ] On 
Behalf Of Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:33 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now. That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail. But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail. Sorry ED. I didn't 
mean to harm you. 




--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk  wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27 

I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

Mike


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flordeloto%40btinternet.com 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
http://de.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com  
wrote: 

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
http://de.mc862

RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread BillSmart
I agree with Chris that a teacher, if not absolutely essential, is very
highly desirable.Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ChrisAustinLane
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 12:12 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

 

  



Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Oct 28, 2010, at 23:24, Siska siska_...@yahoo.com
mailto:siska_cen%40yahoo.com  wrote:

 Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still
not a must have, but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps
this is the way it is in Zen.

At various places on the path, there is a common tendency to fool yourself.
A strong relationship with a teacher makes this fooling yourself much
harder. 

I had to move away from my teacher two years ago and haven't replaced her,
and I can tell I am missing the interaction of someone who knows me well but
is not me. 

Zen is all about face to face teaching. The writing is just entertainment.
Without the practice in non-dual action, the words tend to hide the simple
truth. I am not talking about the sort of satori experience Bill, but
sitting with no goal is non-dual action. Repeat it and 
eventually even one as obtuse as myself notices that non-dual action is
commonplace, the very scaffold of living. 





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5576 (20101029) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-29 Thread ED


Bill,


What 'WHOOP-ASS'?   I see no 'WHOOP ASS'.

I see a person expressing her thoughts, feelings and wants - which is a
natural and normal thing for a person to do.


Back off? Me? I have not said a word to (or about) Mayka since her
demand of me not to communicate with her.

--ED

PS: Mayka, no harm done, and I believe that you intended no harm either
- and neither did I.




 See Ed! It's more WHOOP-ASS! You better back off! ...Bill!



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mayka wrote:

  Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it
now.  That is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be
silence and ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the
mail.   Sorry ED.  I didn't mean to harm you.









Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread mike brown
I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )

Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
LOST.  
DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02


  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:



 ED;

 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 

Are you speaking from experience?  :-)
 

 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind 
 of 
entertainment. 

I hear you. 


 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here. We both 
better let it go. 
  Mayka
 
Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.
 
--ED
   



  

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread ED


Mike,

Would I be leaving the bar all in one piece? :-(

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusub...@... wrote:


I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my
local bars : )   Mike




ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE
GET LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!




 ED;Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring.Are you
speaking from experience?  :-)  I don't mind doing that if the
nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of entertainment.I hear
you.   But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of
anything here.  We both better let it go.Mayka   Mayka, I have
faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your problems
all by yourself - without any man's assistance.   --ED 


Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread Maria Lopez















Siska:
 
Reading books is educative.  Nothing wrong about reading.  A different matter 
is how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind 
of ultimate truth and things like that.   For instance a frequent experience 
I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen 
readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot 
about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject.  I 
have witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of 
that kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to 
the real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react 
as very offended.  So the reading in this case was useless as it added more 
new notions into that person mind.  Everything in life is there available to 
all of us, it depends upon us how do we use it.  That is our choice.  
 
I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the 
subject you mention : The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what 
is at each moment?.  This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: To 
be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
surroundings.  which is what  sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
myself practise.  In addition.  When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
it's simply to sit down and breathe.  
 
Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone 
experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in 
circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by 
oneselves alone.  And a Teacher is great for that purpose.  There is also the 
problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if 
one doesn't have much experience in the practise.  A zen teacher doesn't do the 
job for one.  A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to uncover 
all the layers there
 
Nice talking to you
Mayka
 
 
 
-- On Thu, 28/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 5:49


  



Mayka,

What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has 
got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. 
Perhaps not a wise thing to do?

I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended 
retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's 
approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on 
this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction 
is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I 
find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as 
illusions).

When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very 
similar to me. 

This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student 
relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells 
us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a 
beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised 
I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher 
needed in Zen either :-) 

thanks for this discussions!

 If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
 Teacher won't let you to waste it. 

Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-)

siska




From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 +0100 (BST)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






Siska:
 
I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is 
certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners.    The writers of 
the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers.  
There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having 
some support into your practice.  Do you do a sitting down?
 
If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
Teacher won't let you to waste it.  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20


  

Hi Mayka,

Thanks!

Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here.

As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After 
all, what do I do

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread Maria Lopez
Reading message in capital letters again, I don't feel good about it now.  That 
is not the way to talk to anyone. I could simply choose to be silence and 
ignore the mail.  But it felt as I was bombarded by the mail.   Sorry ED.  I 
didn't mean to harm you. 
 
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 12:27


  





I *really* wanna see ED's chat up lines and their effects in one of my local 
bars : )
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 October, 2010 10:07:40
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  





ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02


  


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:








 ED;
 
 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 
 
Are you speaking from experience?  :-)
 
 
 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 
 
I hear you. 
 
 
 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here.  We both 
 better let it go. 
  Mayka
 
Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.
 
--ED
 







RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread Anthony Wu
Siska,
 
If you want to get around Bill's block on my posts, let me know. At least I can 
refer you to those Chinese surfers who are expert in avoiding government's 
blockage.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 11:25 AM


  



Siska,

You are Buddha.

If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska,

The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. 
According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his 
mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, 
west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the 
ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. 
Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If 
I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to 
hungry dogs.'

Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just 
like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM

Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present 
moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? 

 What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
 more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)
Hello siska,
The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything 
- and even the worst!
I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.
When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:
[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara]
 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut 
 Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.
 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.
A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.
 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska
What does the Buddha mean? When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie? ;-)
--ED


siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 


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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-28 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,
 
I don't see the connection between the British Army and orgyhouse studies. Is 
it along the same line as my idea that gentlemen and sinners are synonyms?
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 7:23 PM


  





Anthony,
 
You said something about learning together in an 'orgy-house'.. I'm ex-British 
Army, so I already hold an honourary Ph.D in 'Orgy-House Studies'.
 
Mike









Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread ED


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)


Hello siska,

The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect
anything - and even the worst!

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you
all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that.
The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions
for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:

[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or
[define:samsara]

 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down
and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both.

'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.

 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska

What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be
infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood
action movie?  ;-)

--ED





siska,

Welcome to the Zen Forum.

If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially)
enlightened.

The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the
course of that interchange.

I look forward to your joining in the conversations.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska





Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread Maria Lopez
Welcome to the zen forum Siska.
 
Lay back and enjoy the ride.  Unluckily you can find the answer of your 
questioning in a Internet forum.  Sit down and shut up is advisable towards 
having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature.   Google and Ed are 
Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself.  
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be 
teaching about (Walking the talk),   and working with him instructions is the 
wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen.  Differently 
here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of  real 
zen.  In a few words, you are wasting your time.  But enjoy the ride and tides 
with us anyway!
 
Hope this helps a little bit.
Mayka
 

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05


  



Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up 
(or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events..

siska



From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  



siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
  



Mayka, 
I'm sorry that you feel that way.  
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
 LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!









Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread siska_cen
Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. 
I don't know, did I miss anything?  

 What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be 
 infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action 
 movie?  ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska

-Original Message-
From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)


Hello siska,

The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect
anything - and even the worst!

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you
all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that.
The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions
for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:

[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or
[define:samsara]

 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down
and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both.

'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.

 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska

What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be
infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood
action movie?  ;-)

--ED





siska,

Welcome to the Zen Forum.

If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially)
enlightened.

The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the
course of that interchange.

I look forward to your joining in the conversations.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska






Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread Anthony Wu
Siska,
 
The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. 
According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his 
mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, 
west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the 
ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. 
Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If 
I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to 
hungry dogs.'
 
Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just 
like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM


  



Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present 
moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? 

 What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be 
 infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action 
 movie?  ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska



From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)

Hello siska,
The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything 
- and even the worst!
I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.
When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:
[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara]
 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut 
 Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.
 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.
A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.
 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska
What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie?  ;-)
--ED
 



siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
 








Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread Anthony Wu
My advice is that you should be careful in choosing your teacher. Test him 
first. Some Tantric teacher will ask you to jump from the top of a seven story 
building to try your loyalty. More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark 
that if you see him chasing a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 1:01 AM


  








Siska:
 
I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is 
certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners.    The writers of 
the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers.  
There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having 
some support into your practice.  Do you do a sitting down?
 
If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
Teacher won't let you to waste it.  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20


  

Hi Mayka,

Thanks!

Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here.

As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After 
all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-)

siska 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






Welcome to the zen forum Siska.
 
Lay back and enjoy the ride.  Unluckily you can find the answer of your 
questioning in a Internet forum.  Sit down and shut up is advisable towards 
having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature.   Google and Ed are 
Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself.  
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be 
teaching about (Walking the talk),   and working with him instructions is the 
wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen.  Differently 
here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of  real 
zen.  In a few words, you are wasting your time.  But enjoy the ride and tides 
with us anyway!
 
Hope this helps a little bit.
Mayka
 

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05


  

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up 
(or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events..

siska



From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  



siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
  



Mayka, 
I'm sorry that you feel that way.  
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
 LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!











Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread siska_cen
Hi Ed,

By here, I meant Jakarta, Indonesia :-)

There are zen groups here and zen retreats. But I've attended the teacher's 
talk and I don't feel he's quite 'there' yet. 

But then, as someone in this forum put it, that is just the way *I* experienced 
this teacher. I don't know.

siska 


-Original Message-
From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:36:54 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:


 Hi Mayka,

 Thanks!

 Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any
here.   Hi siska, by here do you mean the Zen Forum, the US, the West
or this plane of existence?  As for now, I can't find any better
way to waste my time than being here.You appear to be eating your
cake and having it too! ;-)  After all, what do I do with it if not
to waste? ;-)siska

That's a great koan for us all.   --ED


Welcome to the zen forum Siska.   Lay back and enjoy the ride. 
Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet
forum.  Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to
the direct experience of Buddha nature.   Google and Ed are Internet
leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. 
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he
may be teaching about (Walking the talk),   and working with him
instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly
interested in zen.  Differently here in the forum you'll be having a
great entertainment but not much of  real zen.  In a few words, you are
wasting your time.  But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway!   Hope
this helps a little bit. Mayka

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you
all are discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that.
The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions
for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and
Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both.
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events..

siska


siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen,
you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say:
Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that
interchange. I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska
Mayka,  I'm sorry that you feel that way.   --ED   --- In
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE
GET LOST.  DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!





RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread BillSmart
Siska,

You are Buddha.

If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Siska,
 
The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. 
According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his 
mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, 
west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the 
ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. 
Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If 
I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to 
hungry dogs.'
 
Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just 
like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM
  
Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present 
moment. I don't know, did I miss anything? 

 What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be 
 infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action 
 movie?  ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)
Hello siska,
The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything 
- and even the worst!
I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.
When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:
[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara]
 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut 
 Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.
 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.
A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.
 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska
What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie?  ;-)
--ED
 

siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
 




__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5566 (20101027) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5569 (20101027) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

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database 5569 (20101027) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread siska_cen
Mayka,

What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has 
got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. 
Perhaps not a wise thing to do?

I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended 
retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's 
approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on 
this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction 
is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I 
find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as 
illusions).

When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very 
similar to me. 

This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student 
relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells 
us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a 
beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised 
I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher 
needed in Zen either :-) 

thanks for this discussions!

 If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
 Teacher won't let you to waste it. 

Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-)

siska


-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska:
 
I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is 
certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners.    The writers of 
the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers.  
There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having 
some support into your practice.  Do you do a sitting down?
 
If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
Teacher won't let you to waste it.  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20


  



Hi Mayka,

Thanks!

Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here.

As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After 
all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-)

siska 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






Welcome to the zen forum Siska.
 
Lay back and enjoy the ride.  Unluckily you can find the answer of your 
questioning in a Internet forum.  Sit down and shut up is advisable towards 
having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature.   Google and Ed are 
Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself.  
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be 
teaching about (Walking the talk),   and working with him instructions is the 
wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen.  Differently 
here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of  real 
zen.  In a few words, you are wasting your time.  But enjoy the ride and tides 
with us anyway!
 
Hope this helps a little bit.
Mayka
 

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05


  

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up 
(or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events..

siska



From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  



siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations

Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread siska_cen

 More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark that if you see him chasing 
 a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty

It's none of my business if he likes chasing a young girl, I don't care ;-)

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:21:05 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

My advice is that you should be careful in choosing your teacher. Test him 
first. Some Tantric teacher will ask you to jump from the top of a seven story 
building to try your loyalty. More smart teacher will make a preemptive remark 
that if you see him chasing a young girl, that is also a test on your loyalty.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 1:01 AM


  








Siska:
 
I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is 
certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners.    The writers of 
the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers.  
There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having 
some support into your practice.  Do you do a sitting down?
 
If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
Teacher won't let you to waste it.  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20


  

Hi Mayka,

Thanks!

Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here.

As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After 
all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-)

siska 





From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  






Welcome to the zen forum Siska.
 
Lay back and enjoy the ride.  Unluckily you can find the answer of your 
questioning in a Internet forum.  Sit down and shut up is advisable towards 
having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature.   Google and Ed are 
Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself.  
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be 
teaching about (Walking the talk),   and working with him instructions is the 
wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen.  Differently 
here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of  real 
zen.  In a few words, you are wasting your time.  But enjoy the ride and tides 
with us anyway!
 
Hope this helps a little bit.
Mayka
 

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05


  

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up 
(or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events..

siska



From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  



siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
  



Mayka, 
I'm sorry that you feel that way.  
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET 
 LOST.  DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!












Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-27 Thread siska_cen
LOL!

Thanks for the offer Bill, I can see you are a very good and responsible 
moderator.

siska
-Original Message-
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:25:33 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska,

You are Buddha.

If you’d like to find out how to block Anthony’s posts just let me know.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:50 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
Siska,
 
The Buddha means somebody who can walk and talk as soon as he is born. 
According to a mahayana story, Sakyamuni, as soon as he came out of his 
mother's womb, walked seven steps in each of the 4 directions, east, south, 
west and north. Then he pointed one finger to the sky and the other to the 
ground, proclaiming: 'in heaven and on earth, I am the most worthy of honor'. 
Later, zen master Unmon commented: 'too bad I wasn't there when he did that. If 
I had been, I would have struck him with one deadly blow and fed his body to 
hungry dogs.'
 
Please note the joke above does not lessen my respect to Sakyamuni Buddha, just 
like my joke about Bill on this forum still maintains my respect for him.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 8:42 PM
  
Hi Ed,

 The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect 
 anything - and even the worst!

:-)

I'm not totally new to Buddhism and terms like buddha nature, dhamma, samsara 
etc are not new to me either, but it has been a long time since I read the 
definitions, it may be a good idea to re-visit them.

 A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.

Good advice. Btw, I've never heard anyone saying the word zazen. How do you 
pronounce it?

From the meditation instruction that I received upon joining this forum, I 
learned that the instruction for zazen does not differ that much from other 
meditation technique where we are to be aware of our breath and present moment. 
I don't know, did I miss anything? 

 What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be 
 infinitely more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action 
 movie?  ;-)

Yes, I think so, really fast, but with awareness maybe not so exciting? 

siska

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:14:44 -
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:

 Hello Ed,

 Thanks for the welcome :)
Hello siska,
The Zen Forum exists in samsara - so, hold on to your seat and expect anything 
- and even the worst!
I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about buddha nature, zen, the Law and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.
When in a hurry for an initial understanding, Google:
[define:buddha nature] or [define:zen], or [define:dhamma] or [define:samsara]
 I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut 
 Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of my early favorites.
 Looking forward to learning more from this forum.
A Zen Master (and Bill) might advise: Just sit.
 Wow, seventeen trillion events..

 siska
What does the Buddha mean?  When one is totally aware, will life be infinitely 
more fast-paced and exciting than an AD/HD-driven Hollywood action movie?  ;-)
--ED
 

siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange.
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 
 




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Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-26 Thread Anthony Wu
Mayka,
 
Is it? I thougt sinners and gentlemen are synonyms.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 7:31 AM


  








Anthony:
 
He he...!.   What a laugh,  Senor being translated as a Sinner.   
This maybe because the N from word SENOR should have a wave line on the top 
which I can't have because my keyboard is British.  Senor means : Sir, Mister.  
But in English translation with this sentence it may go better gentleman.  so 
the sentence says:  I'm under the impression that this gentleman suffers from 
depression

 
Mayka
 

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:


From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 0:11


  






Mayka,
 
My translation is: I am under the impression that you sinner suffer from 
depression.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote:


From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 7:05 AM


  






Me da la impresion que este senor sufre de depresion.  
 
--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 0:01


  



Mayka,
I am (to you) whatever you experience me to be in the moment - and vice versa.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:


ED;
 
Why the reading of your statement sounds in my ears as lacking of reality in 
you and as it was something in decay? Just wonder...
 
Mayka
 


Mayka,




Fools learn through their own foolishness; wise women and men learn from 
the foolishnes of fools.
--ED









RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

2010-10-26 Thread BillSmart
Ed,

This is a good example of ‘a can of whoop-ass’!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 8:08 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

  
ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH.  LET ME ALONE GET LOST. 
 DO YOU GET IT NOW...GOSH!!!

--- On Tue, 26/10/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010, 2:02
  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordel...@... wrote:

 ED;
 
 Keep talking continuous nonsense is very tiring. 
 
Are you speaking from experience?  :-)
 
 
 I don't mind doing that if the nonsense bring me a good laugh or some kind of 
 entertainment. 
 
I hear you. 
 
 
 But as there is no real conversation,  or exchange of anything here.  We both 
 better let it go. 
  Mayka
 
Mayka, I have faith in you that you are a powerful woman who can solve your 
problems all by yourself - without any man's assistance.
 
--ED
 




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