Re: [Zen] RE: Test for Graphic...
I see it only when I click on it... Edgar On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:12 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Second Try... img src=https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s720x720/1184838_10202240585519798_1292807694_n.jpg; height=50 width=100 Do you see it now? ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: I don't... ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: This is a graphic... Do you see it?
Re: [Zen] RE: Re: changed appearance and functionality
Bill, I'm using Mac Safari browser. When I click on 'visit your group' at the bottom of a post I am taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info with Kremlin photo. When I try to go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ I get page doesn't exist error. When I go to yahoo groups and search for Zen_forum I see a listing come up with a little thumbnail of the Daruma image but when I click on it I'm taken back to the Kremlin again. Edgar On Sep 12, 2013, at 3:58 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, et al... This is very strange. When I view the Home Page using my regular browser I am taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ and it's the old Home Page. This page seems unchanged to me. When I view the Home Page using the a different browser I'm taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info and it's the new Home Page with a view of tops of buildings in the Kremlin. This page has changed but looks like it's a page that's given me before I sign in to the group, but I'm really not even sure about that. I have no explanation for this. When you go to the web page who sees the old page (with a likeness of Bodhidharma)? And who sees the new Kremlin page? And what browser are you using? And what is the URL (web address) located at the top of your browser? Thanks...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: Bill, Yes, the homepage has been totally screwed up by somebody. The great Daruma image is replaced by RedSquare. Do you think this is something we can fix? Edgar On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:08 AM, Merle Lester wrote: hi joe..no rain, early spring..hot yesterday herald first fires... in this hawkesbury/ blue mountains area...cheers merle Hi, Bill!, and thank you for the kind welcome. I don't see the usual Zen Forum masthead: I see a view of the onion-domes of the Kremlin, an image set to serve to represent all YAHOO! Groups. Something's changed while I've been snoozing... . ;-) I suspect that YAHOO! has been dithering-about around the corners. If you don't see this, then I may just have to puzzle-out the strange change myself. I've made no changes to the laptop, other than of course the famous bi-weekly Tuesday morning Microsoft Windows updates: I run XP on this main machine, and have a couple others running Windows 8 on touchscreen Dell 'mosheens', which I use for science, and optical-design mostly, at home. Wishing you and everyone Strong practice, and a good Indian -- Native-American? -- Summer. And, to Merle, a good soon-to-be-Spring. Equinox in 11 days, or so. Celebrate! Or, get ready to. To dance around the September-Pole... . ;-) Be well! Take good care of your realization, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] RE: Re: changed appearance and functionality
hi joe..no rain, early spring..hot yesterday herald first fires... in this hawkesbury/ blue mountains area...cheers merle Hi, Bill!, and thank you for the kind welcome. I don't see the usual Zen Forum masthead: I see a view of the onion-domes of the Kremlin, an image set to serve to represent all YAHOO! Groups. Something's changed while I've been snoozing... . ;-) I suspect that YAHOO! has been dithering-about around the corners. If you don't see this, then I may just have to puzzle-out the strange change myself. I've made no changes to the laptop, other than of course the famous bi-weekly Tuesday morning Microsoft Windows updates: I run XP on this main machine, and have a couple others running Windows 8 on touchscreen Dell 'mosheens', which I use for science, and optical-design mostly, at home. Wishing you and everyone Strong practice, and a good Indian -- Native-American? -- Summer. And, to Merle, a good soon-to-be-Spring. Equinox in 11 days, or so. Celebrate! Or, get ready to. To dance around the September-Pole... . ;-) Be well! Take good care of your realization, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: changed appearance and functionality
hi joe...merle Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill! __
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
good one..merle I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but but a lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and probably some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons, slogans etc. All those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him. I know little but I do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it is! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/If you have no concrete, empirical evidence of a creator god then it's all just preconceived and presupposed. In other words - made up.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
and pray larry what doeth thee think it is..this spirituality...merle Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but but a lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and probably some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons, slogans etc. All those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him. I know little but I do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it is! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Freeing the mind is a myth. What cannot be found, cannot be bound. The imagined mind, imagines itself otherwise. KG On 8/27/2013 1:53 AM, larry maher wrote: Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk mailto:uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad **
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
what was?...merle I thought it was a 60s flashback thing.. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 9:42:54 AM Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?...  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion?  Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM   mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle  Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM   mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:  Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/what the hell did you think god was?...br/br/I'm not sure, but does he wear the Welsh number 15 shirt and convert the winning kick against England last year?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry,br/br/I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun. KG On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
And a 6000 year old one, at that.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle Merle, The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that.. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
delusional...huh?...wait till the sun goes down on you!! merle Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun. KG On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the First Noble Truth.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
which self?..merle The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the First Noble Truth. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:10:17 AM yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle Merle, The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that.. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'Ã
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
I thought it was a 60s flashback thing..br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! .
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...they are in yahoo ... ..merle Merle, I was just wondering where you got all those emoticans you started using lately... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! .
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry,br/br/Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Yes, yes totally agree. I just mentioned reading years ago that the Buddha said believe whatever's easier while following the middle way. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike..for you it might..for others it is a source of comfort..don't be so harsh..merle Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
interesting bill..your streaks ahead in consciousness..merle Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merlebr/br/They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/Utility is no measure of Truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
Yes Merle, you could say acceptance is 'good' in certain circumstances, or that it is of use/value to the individual. That's the point. As such it remains a subtle form of attachment. I am not judging this, or suggesting it not be pursued. I am only pointing out the dual nature of grasping/rejecting regardless of intents and purposes. KG On 8/23/2013 7:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: disagree..there is more to acceptance than meets the eye..this is the superficial version you are suggesting..merle On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote: ..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
On 8/24/2013 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Even the need some feel to identify or creating a creator is an integral aspect of this ever-presently unfolding creation. Duality, always a matter of appearances. Zen, no-thing at all. Tao you see it, Tao you don't. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like it!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well, to be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a few times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate. Thanks, Larry PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific moderator. It's called AYPsite.com. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: ** Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
cynical mike..tut tut..shame on you..merle God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like it! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 1:32:29 PM And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: buddha nature
bill...thank you for the clarification... merle Merle, Zen Buddhism (Japanese), Ch'an Buddhism (Chinese) and Soen Buddhism (Korean) are all very similar and to the best of my knowledge (which is not that great in this area) share the same foundations and basic teachings. There are some differences though. JMJM on this forum is a Ch'an teacher and could maybe tell you about more of those. Because of JMJM's presence on the forum I sometimes include Ch'an in when speaking about zen, especially when I firmly believe the topics I'm discussing are common to both. So for now let's just drop Ch'an so not to be confusing. I think what's confusing you here is the term 'Buddha Nature'. It has the word 'Buddha' in it so I think it's hard for you to separate any notion of 'Buddha Nature' from Buddhism proper. I use the term 'Buddha Nature' because it's a fairly universally accepted term throughout the zen community and comes up fairly often in zen literature. The term 'Buddha Nature' is just a label or name given to the 'direct, non-dualistic experience of reality'. It's also been called 'Original Face' which is less Buddhist-specific, and a lot of other things which I won't go into here. In any even this experience is part of the original nature of all sentient beings, and was so long before Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) walked the earth. It is I believe what Buddha experienced while sitting under the Bodhi tree and went on to teach about; but Buddha isn't the only or even the first one in history to teach these things. Buddha taught about his experience through a Hindu perspective and used Hindu symbolisms and language to do so. Jesus I believe also had this same experience and then went out and taught about it from a Jewish perspective using Jewish symbolisms and language. So...it's not so much the 'Buddha' part of Buddha Nature that I treasure, but that is just the term I use to describe it. Think of it as just 'original nature' which is a quality of all sentient beings. The 'original' part IMO (and this is a controversial opinion) means 'before the encroachment of the intellect and the rising of duality' You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle  Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
what is AYPsite.com? merle I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well, to be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a few times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate. Thanks, Larry PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific moderator. It's called AYPsite.com. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature
Re: [Zen] Re: buddha nature
so self is no self but the other..hence we need to refresh our ideas and return to the garden of eden... the brazilian rainforest tribe eh?..merle Merle, You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
But they're both so comforting!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that..br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote: ..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying to figure this out. Thank you Larry On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry, Bill and me, Edgar, are co-moderators of the group... Edgar On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, larry maher wrote: Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying to figure this out. Thank you Larry On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny
Re: [Zen] Re: clarification
bill...the idea of beating at all is disgusting..merle Merle, The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is thicker than your thumb. That is an old English law and the origin of the term 'rule of thumb'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle  If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you hit your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry?  ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  and parcel of the human condition that many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the best..merle  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote: Dear sirs, Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name. For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't do by them selves. He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came out of his mouth. I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have tortured him. I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him. I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this confession to this group. Pray god for my younger son to speak soon. I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders. What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried about younger son. Please pray. Suresh Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
question bill...do any of us really see things as they really are?...and who is the judge and jury to say that this has happened to one? i think it might be a goal to work towards however individuals who achieve this fully would be few and far between already you complain of pain as a burden in a previous post...when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@... wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
Dear Aham, Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to shine through. Let it be our guide in our daily life. And the only way that it may shine through depends on the purification of our physical, mental and spiritual hindrances. Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all knowing, all wise, all powerful, all harmonious. JM On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote: Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@... wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut my zen question is thus: to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? merle Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'. The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if you're putting some spin on it. KG On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote: The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
spinning top springs to mind...and it can topple when it stops...merle 'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'. The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if you're putting some spin on it. KG On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote: The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Bill, This is one of the reasons I like Zen Forum :) Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 05:03:32 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
Re: [Zen] Re: My book on Reality is now available on Amazon.com
Thanks Bill... Edgar On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote: CONGRATULATIONS --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Dear All, After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now published and available on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Sweeping-Existence-Information-Consciousness/dp/0615869459/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8qid=1377032180sr=8-3keywords=edgar+l.+owen Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Will do. Thanks Bill... Edgar On Aug 16, 2013, at 4:31 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, THAT'S GREAT! Let us know when it's available on Amazon.com...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published shortly and available on Amazon The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence, Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time' Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
edgar..congratulations...a published book..your first?...merle Merle, Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published shortly and available on Amazon The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence, Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time' Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Yes, and formatting it for publication has been a bear also though it's now almost done too... Thanks, Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 10:17 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, Congratulations! You must be relieved to have finally finished it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: i am here Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 12:22:35 AM Merle, Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published shortly and available on Amazon The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence, Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time' Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Thanks Merle, yes first... Edgar On Aug 15, 2013, at 2:19 AM, Merle Lester wrote: edgar..congratulations...a published book..your first?...merle Merle, Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published shortly and available on Amazon The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence, Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time' Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Stillness Speaks.
me too...all is quiet...cheers merle Suresh, I'm still hear but have been distracted with other things. I do check the forum everyday but like you have seen no new posts...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: Dear all, I was surprised on this sudden silence in this forum. I thought today while coming to office that have I been removed from this forum? why no mails are coming? let me check directly on yahoo group site. So then I opened the site and noticed that for last 7 days no activity at all in the forum. So to break this silence, I am posting this Stillness speaks. Let at least stillness speaks, if minds don't want to speak. best wishes Suresh -- Feel the energy of your inner body. Immediately mental noise slows down or ceases. Feel it in your hands, your feet, your abdomen, your chest. Feel the life that you are, the life that animates the body. The body then becomes a doorway, so to speak, into a deeper sense of aliveness underneath the fluctuating emotions and underneath your thinking. There is an aliveness in you that you can feel with your entire Being, not just in the head. Every cell is alive in that presence in which you don't need to think. Yet, in that state, if thought is required for some practical purpose, it is there. The mind can still operate, and it operates beautifully when the greater intelligence that you are uses it and expresses itself through it. ~ Eckhart Tolle from: Stillness Speaks. -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Merle, Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published shortly and available on Amazon The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence, Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time' Edgar On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..finished the book yet bill? attention attention cheers merle Merle, To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention! Attention!...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: where else would i be?...merle Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Edgar,br/br/Congratulations! You must be relieved to have finally finished it.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
joe..have fun too...hear from you soon... cheers merle Merle, Writing Java and Android programs (learning, i.e.). Can't explain. Who knows what drives us, sumptimes. ;-) I'll equilibrate, someday. Friendly, Cousinly, Greetings!, All, --J. Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: hi joe..where you been hiding?...merle
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
hi joe..where you been hiding?...merle Kris, It's fine to see you around and about. I myself have become scarce, but for a period, and who knows for how long. As I would wish to tell Merle, 'things are relative, Cousin'. Anyway, the call was put out to let others' wisdom shine. Sunshades on, Best!, --Joe Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Greetings Suresh! Insights are not gifts given by others, but innate realizations. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle The point of all pointers is to raise such doubt. Otherwise, there is clarity and no need of such pointers. This is not science class. Ramana is not teaching you things to know. You must go into this and see this directly. It has nothing to do with what you think, or don't think about it. Contradiction is a matter of limited opinions, of positions. Stop preposing the preposterous and simply (or not) look. KG --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: Dear all, I have doubts on Ramana Teachings, can anyone clarify me on this? Read below the extract from A SADHU'S REMINISCENCES and NAAN YAAR (Who am I) -- D: Will there not be realization of the Self even while the world is there (taken as real)? M:There will not be. D:Why? M:The seer and the object seen are like the rope and the snake. Just as the knowledge of the rope which is the substrate will not arise unless the false knowledge of the illusory serpent goes, so the realization of the Self which is the substrate will not be gained unless the belief that the world is real is removed. == M:But in deep sleep, although the mind becomes quiescent, the breath does not stop. This is because of the will of God, so that the body may be preserved and other people may not be under the impression that it is dead. = In dissolution there remains only the non-dual Brahman and no Isvara. Clearly there cannot be His will. When it is said that in dissolution all are withdrawn from manifestation and remain unmanifest, it means that the jivas, all the universe, and Isvara have all become unmanifest. The unmanifest Isvara cannot exercise His will. = After reading above from Ramana books, a three different statement, I sense a contradictory in these statements. -- 1)First statement states that world is unreal (only self is), but in second statement god preserve the body by breathing since other should not consider that person as dead. If the world is unreal, why god has to preserve the body when the body is in deep sleep?, the body belongs to the world, hence when self is considerd as real, all become unreal (maya) including body. 2)In third statement Maharishi states there is no Isvara (god) in dissolution, only non-dual Brahman (self) and also went on to state that the unmanifest Isvara cannot exercise his will, then how on the second statement he states god preserves the body by his will? So what is god? Is there a god separate from self (non-dual Brahman) or self is god? -- Am I clear in putting my question/doubt? If yes, please explain/provide clear answer. -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
Greetings Suresh! Insights are not gifts given by others, but innate realizations. Inward sights. Realizations, rather than learned facts. If they appear otherwise, or seem triggered by others, then they are either just adopted concepts or[the insight is that] there is more to realize about the nature of the inner and outer appearances, the interplay [or 'Lila' if you prefer] of reality. If I may quote myself from past dialogs (hopefully full 'contradictions): Any insights you have (and any wisdom you find) are just that, IN-sights. Revealing what is always present. Teachings may seem to offer great insights (ways to help you see for yourself), but Wisdom is lost in attempts to know. Coincidences, contradiction, and conundrums are concurrent insights. Mind intersecting mind. [what finer pointer can present?] Your reactions to the words are the 'pointers', not the words themselves. Insights are not received from them, but reflections of them. Ramana said different things to different people. The reason for this is clear enough. When reading accounts of him speaking to others you will either see this [and how it points them back to look at themselves], or you will see contradictions in his 'teaching' and fail to recognize the pointer. Either way, he is not speaking to you now, except as you re-imagine his words and meanings. Therein lies the source of all such apparent contradictions. A guru may offer many many shortcuts, none of them yours to take. As Ramana toold U.G. - I can give it, but can you take it? Let me put my understanding on my own questions? you asked. Yes. It can only appear you are doing otherwise. There is no right or wrong way of it, no long or short of it, but only you may realize this. Look at why/where/how such questions arise. Catch the tiger by its tail. Watch the lightning, feel the thunder. Smell the flowers. Tat tvam asi, as they say. KG PS - You ended with: So my conclusion is it is the perception of a person depends on his capability (deep inner meditation). Perception is a capability, so this seems to me a rather circular argument - or a 'contradiction' juxtaposing inter-dependent faculties. Oh what a tangled web we weave... Today's shortcut: Mindfulness, is never what you think it is! ;) On 8/2/2013 7:24 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: Dear KG, Let me put my understanding on my own questions? Realized gurus answers are based on receivers as you so mentioned about different type of Metallurgy, and hence their answers will contradict if we look at it as if it is addressed to all as common. But it would have given great meaning and insight to the receivers who have asked the question those time. World will be unreal for god, the self, the whole, but not for individual souls/jivas. Until one is realized as self (become god) the world will be real, once realized it is just a maya, a play. So Ramana statement is true as far as his godhood(self) state is concerned. The self, the non-dual Brahman is the real god, who preserve the body of individual soul during his sleep allowing the karma to prevail at all times. Isvara may be the siva form for that disciple and hence he answered those forms of lord also vanish on dissolution, only non-dual Brahman will remain. --- Quote This is not science class. Ramana is not teaching you things to know. You must go into this and see this directly. It has nothing to do with what you think, or don't think about it. Contradiction is a matter of limited opinions, of positions. Stop preposing the preposterous and simply (or not) look. Unquote If you have ever Read Collected works of Ramana fully and thoroughly, you might have come across these words, i.e. Ramana himself states science of self in one place. All religious philosophies are pure science only. Science and Philosophies are same, only difference is science deals with outer things, and philosophies deals with inner, the inner most energy behind the visible universe. So it is certainly science class only. Are you a realized soul? then don't preach or give hypocritical statement i.e. to say personally not felt or experienced just pass information read from some book to show of your wisdom you think you possess. Many don’t like me questioning on anyone or anything, I don’t know why? I learn by questioning only. To question does not mean I degrade somebody. I kept thinking about my questions again and again and that above answer I got today morning when I was coming to office. But I waited to see different answers. So my conclusion is it is the perception of a person depends on his capability (deep inner meditation). I hope I answered and which may not hurt anyone. Let Ramana bless us all. Best wishes Suresh Current Book Discussion: any Zen book
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
On 8/2/2013 2:11 AM, Merle Lester wrote: is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle Has it been so long? KG
Re: [Zen] Re: CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM RAMANA
yes indeed..where you the one who was into kayaking?... merle On 8/2/2013 2:11 AM, Merle Lester wrote: is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle Has it been so long? KG
Re: [Zen] Re: Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie
I too went to the ChanCenter and also enjoyed many readings today. I don't know where I found the following link, http://amidatrust.ning.com/ but they were offering a link to a free kindle book from amazon called 'Not Everything is Impermanent' by Dharmavidya David Brazier. I was too late to get the free book but the web site has some free audios taken from the book and I downloaded them. They also have a podcast that has not been updated yet. If you find the free audios for the book Not Everything is Impermanent, right click on the link to each individual file and save as mp3 or wave form to your documents. You can listen to them at your leisure and then can determine if you want to read the book or not. M On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mike, I did read this newsletter and thought it was excellent! The only exception I would have with it is its claim that When the method of silent illumination was taken to Japan it was changed somewhat. The name given to it, just sitting, means just paying attention to sitting or just keeping the physical posture of sitting, and this was the new emphasis. This was not the way shikantaza (just sitting) was explained to me from two different Japanese Zen Buddhist roshis. In fact shikantaza was explained exactly as the way silent illumination is defined in this newsletter. The only difference I could find was the breaking the experience into three stages as is done at the bottom of this article. The zen training I received did not at all emphasize a lot of stages of things or a specific number of this or that like Buddhism in general does. My training was very sparse on explanation, especially explanation which goes down into great detail. Teaching was by example accompanied with very terse explanations, and emphasized doing (experience) over learning (understanding). ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/If you have time, take a look at this 1995 newsletter from Chan Center. br/br/ http://chancenter.org/cmc/1995/02/01/shikantaza-and-silent-illumination/br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie
I also found an article on Tricycle http://www.tricycle.com/feature/joy-effort by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, titled The Joy of Effort. From the website article: Now, the Buddha wasn’t telling Rahula to become a passive clod of dirt. He was teaching Rahula to be grounded, to develop his powers of endurance, so that he’d be able to observe both pleasant and painful events in his body and mind without becoming engrossed in the pleasure or blown away by the pain. This is what patience does. It helps you sit with things until you understand them well enough to respond to them skillfully. I have listened to Bhikkhu on YouTube a few times, but the article really caught and held my interest M On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: I guess the offer for a free book was impermanent... ;) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Eccentrics.R.US HALatMOTHERSHIP@... wrote: I too went to the ChanCenter and also enjoyed many readings today. I don't know where I found the following link, http://amidatrust.ning.com/ but they were offering a link to a free kindle book from amazon called 'Not Everything is Impermanent' by Dharmavidya David Brazier. I was too late to get the free book but the web site has some free audios taken from the book and I downloaded them. They also have a podcast that has not been updated yet. If you find the free audios for the book Not Everything is Impermanent, right click on the link to each individual file and save as mp3 or wave form to your documents. You can listen to them at your leisure and then can determine if you want to read the book or not. M On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, I did read this newsletter and thought it was excellent! The only exception I would have with it is its claim that When the method of silent illumination was taken to Japan it was changed somewhat. The name given to it, just sitting, means just paying attention to sitting or just keeping the physical posture of sitting, and this was the new emphasis. This was not the way shikantaza (just sitting) was explained to me from two different Japanese Zen Buddhist roshis. In fact shikantaza was explained exactly as the way silent illumination is defined in this newsletter. The only difference I could find was the breaking the experience into three stages as is done at the bottom of this article. The zen training I received did not at all emphasize a lot of stages of things or a specific number of this or that like Buddhism in general does. My training was very sparse on explanation, especially explanation which goes down into great detail. Teaching was by example accompanied with very terse explanations, and emphasized doing (experience) over learning (understanding). ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!,br/br/If you have time, take a look at this 1995 newsletter from Chan Center. br/br/ http://chancenter.org/cmc/1995/02/01/shikantaza-and-silent-illumination/ br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Humble, is it slavery?
goodness me suresh... sounds like you have no fun at all joe is it necessary to be so Pure minded? surely zen is freedom attachments are only attachments if they over take over ride and destroy our balance?... merle Dear Joe, Thanks for your offer. You are right. But for me joining a sangha and practice zen is impossible for me due to my lifestyle. I am bonded to this family and I don't want to break it since they are very much innocent and if I do still, then that Karma will not leave me for free, and awakening of zen will be impossible because of this bad karma of mine. To live with family and supporting them is my zen practice. I practice zen moment to moment. Actual Selflessness is impossible, due to my attachment to the family.But I can try to detach from these writings I make in forums. I have already detached from alcohol, smoking and also indulging in eating. Sex no more impress me, so that attachment also gone. My only attachment is to my family and to my own knowledge. This attachment to my knowledge should be discarded, then I hope I will not get into any problems. Because of my attachment to 'my'(this itself wrong claim) knowledge, I claim my righteousness, which many did not like it. I think humbleness will come if I discard the ownership of knowledge gathered by this body. Best regards Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, The only real humility is (actual) Selflessness. Other humility is a discipline, or a charade (a feature of attachment to a Self). Other humility is thus not quite real, and definitely not Natural (not a feature of actual Nature). Selflessness is attained when all else drops away. This occurs in the awakening of Zen, through absolutely correct Zen practice with Teacher, and Sangha. If it happens otherwise, it is perhaps one in a Billion times, so just forget about that. Better to seek a practice situation with others, and especially with a true Teacher, to help one's chances, and to he help ensure that one will open to true Wisdom and Compassion, and not to yet another Attachment of some kind. But I always say this. You know this already, to the extent that *I* think it is true. Some disagree; I think they are sadly mistaken, and deluded on this point, and others. I've seen no one else awaken, though -- by the way -- in 35 years in these circles, and OUT of these circles. Having children with special needs or special characters has nothing to do with true humility. It depends on one's own actual living character, not upon the personalities in one's family. This is the best I can offer, today. Yours!, --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@ wrote: Dear all, Can anyone define what is to be 'Humble'? Since sometimes back one of my old senior colleague advised me that whether you are right or wrong is not important, be humble, and humble since you have special children you need to be much more humbled. He used to be like my well-wisher. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Is not coconut a miracle?
Joe, Yes, most of the upward pumping force of sap in trees is due to capillary action. The calculated maximum is a little over 400 feet, which is in fact the height of the highest historically recorded trees. Edgar On Jul 24, 2013, at 10:22 PM, Joe wrote: Suresh, The water travels against gravity up into the heights of the tree, but is assisted of course by the upward-drawing force of capillary action of the phloem and xylem tissue(s) of the tree cell structure, the conducting and supporting tissues of the wood, respectively. Otherwise, 32 feet high, or about 10 meters high, would be the maximum height that one could pump water upwards in height, even with a VACUUM at the top end. The reason is that earth's atmospheric pressure at sea-level will support a column of water 32 feet high, and no higher. Hail! --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: The plain water has to climb against gravitational force for a 20 meters height and start growing flowers, then make small form of coconut and keep infusing the water into it. And at the end when we open a coconut you see white kernel, and water.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fools!
I fall asleep nearly as often as I catch myself having been asleep. Depending on the moment, it may be a matter of N and N+1 or N-1 --Chris Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Simon buddha...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Yes, it is true that we are all Enlightened we just may not realise it and we all have Buddha-Nature. Not everyone realises these things, that is why we have Zen. I feel that if anyone can become Enlightened (or realise they are enlightened) it is through zen. Unfortunately most people even after they become awake, fall back to sleep, willfully being unvigilant and therefore mindful of what they have realised. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Simon, Welcome! I haven't seen you post before. I'm glad you decided to chime in. The story goes that we are all enlightened but most of us just don't realize it yet. That's what the term 'awakening' refers to: waking up to the fact that we are all Buddha - all enlightened. Anyway if you disagree with the quote you'll have to take it up with Shunryu Suzuki. It's his quote, not mine. I'm just the messenger... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
thank you..i understand..merle Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You: we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts. Me: Things and thoughts are already distortions. It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about when experience happens, we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter.
RE: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,br/br/Won't be my job. In high school I never got passed 'sums'. Still have a maths phobia.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
i thought we were all buddhas...merle Mike, Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have 'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean 'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I = cannot comment on that. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrot= e: =20 =20 =C2 so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the sche= me of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for in= stance traffic lights..=C2=20 =20 i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the on= ly real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see =C2 we hear we tou= ch we smell we taste...=C2=20 =C2 one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...=C2=20 =C2 one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see,= hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...=C2=20 i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understand= ing the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence = an intellect... =C2 then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communic= ate that reality to others =C2 and then there is a consensus =20 merle =20 =C2=20 Merle, =20 IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sens= ory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). =20 That's it. That's all. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
So you know enough of his history to know he is not just writing stuff he has read? You may find his language inaccurate or unreflective of what his intent is, but I, again a sensitive soul, find your use of the comic book zen trope to be a sign of attributing ill will. Whatever, the question you ask is if your report of Bill's statement that I am not real offends me. My answer is to 'Chris' is not real. Of course that is not offensive! I have no real self, never have, couldn't possibly have one. Nor could Bill nor any of the waves typing into computers be cut off from one another. We are all in this together. Joe, Mike, dervish, Merle, you, the other ED, we are just transitory waves that can be sketched for a moment but are all temporary configurations of life, flowing thru, flowing onward, just flowing so interestingly. If you are asking some rarified question about are we 'real' as opposed to 'unreal', or some such proposition I can't quite put together, then I am afraid you are out of my depth. Conveniently labeled for your enjoyment, --Chris 301-270-6524
Re: [Zen] Re: Experience
Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture
mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.
I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw
lines in the dust :)
Thanks,
--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
Chris,
I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do
consider 'thinking' as doing something. So to follow it there is no doing
there would be no perceptions.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it
involves thinking it would not be monisitc experience. For example if it
involves it involves a subject/relationship/object scenario
(dualism/pluralism) such as a witness/observing/something then it would not
be a monistic experience and would in my book involve thinking and
perceiving.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote:
Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but
then
your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
Oh well. How about this for another question:
Is perception something that is related to doing? If no doing is
present, can perception be present? Does mere attentive witnessing
already
cross your line of experience?
Thanks,
--Chris
chris@...
+1-301-270-6524
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Chris,
I'm not locked-in to the preceding aspect. As I've said on this
thread
I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens. I just know it
happens. Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed
take
place at the same time. In fact that does make some sense because
these
perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise
that
completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and
I do
believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
Nature) is still present even though obscured.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote:
I'm with you 100% except for preceding. To me it seems to be
different
categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
process. I can't say what I think it is.
Anyways, thanks for your patience.
And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level
of
zen
training one has undertaken. It's all just computational substrate,
right?
You can't cut bits out from the whole.
--Chris
Thanks,
--Chris
chris@
+1-301-270-6524
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
Chris,
Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
functions
which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me
on
this
outside of this thread.
The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and
fundamental
functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it
has
been
called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your
Mother
Was
Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
experience by
the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
'Small
Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the
delusion
of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion of a
separate,
unique
'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
quickly
followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
'forms'
and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' -
phenomena).
I don't see experience as slightly at an angle to... the arising
of
duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is
not-beginning and not-ending, sometimes referred to as 'in the
moment' or
'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call the
wonder
of
presence which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
monisitic -
as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
'awakening'
or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@
wrote:
Bill,
One more question on this:
Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in
the
brains
normal functioning
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You: we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts. Me: Things and thoughts are already distortions. It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about when experience happens, we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,br/br/Every Zen teacher and Buddha agree with you is a bit revealing... Anyway, no, not exactly. Buddha taught us to go within to discover reality. Speculating what 'out there' is made of is the role of philosophers and meta-physicians. If nothing else, the Buddha was practical. That's why we just concentrate on how 'out there' affects us and we adjust accordingly. Bill!'s approach is a lot more closer to what Buddha taught, even though Bill! does tend to gloss over the relative (Buddha taught two truths - the relative and absolute).br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle,br/br/br/ blind freddie knows there are 2...br/br/I wise and knowledgable person such as yourself might understand this, but evidently it is not that obvious given the constant arguing between Edgar and Bill!.br/br/hey i thought truth was a forbidden word / notion in zen? mikebr/br/'Truth' itself is conceptual. You need to look behind the word itself to find the meaning. br/br/doesn't take buddha to figure that truth outbr/br/When you've worked it out you *will* be a buddha.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bingo!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
