RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all 
are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution.  We 
are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and 
create wonders - without hope of reward.

I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without 
having to answer to anyone.  Why can't you?

Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do 
and be answerable to?  Don't you trust yourself?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Chris,
 
There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I 
tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing 
that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma 
objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work 
out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth 
go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, 
rape, drink and burn.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote:
From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM
I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has 
theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But 
I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think 
JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain 
the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this 
make any sense? 

Thank You,

Chris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in.
 


Get your preferred Email name! 
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com.
 

__ NOD32 3770 (20090116) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of 
actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to 
switch to the first group once in a while?
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM






Anthony,

I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all 
are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We 
are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and 
create wonders - without hope of reward.

I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without 
having to answer to anyone. Why can't you?

Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do 
and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself?

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Chris,

There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I 
tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing 
that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma 
objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work 
out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth 
go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, 
rape, drink and burn.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att. net wrote:
From: cid830 summitj...@att. net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM
I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has 
theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But 
I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think 
JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain 
the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this 
make any sense? 

Thank You,

Chris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in.


 _ _ _ _
Get your preferred Email name! 
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.


__ NOD32 3770 (20090116) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset. com

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-16 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

Actually a lot of people expect me to answer to them.  Sometimes I do, 
sometimes I don't, but I don't feel obligated to do so.

And I didn't say I always do the second group of actions (would that I did); I 
said I don't do any of the first group.  I don't know why I don't do any of 
them, nor do I even want to do any of them.  I like to think it has to do with 
zazen, but it probably also has a lot to do with my upbringing and my current 
situation which does not impose many pressures on me to take advantage of 
others or conform with such behavior in others.

Now, I've answered a lot of your questions in recent posts.  Please answer one 
of mine from my previous post:

 Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to 
do and be answerable to?

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of 
actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to 
switch to the first group once in a while?
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM
Anthony,

I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all 
are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We 
are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and 
create wonders - without hope of reward.

I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without 
having to answer to anyone. Why can't you?

Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do 
and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself?

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Chris,

There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I 
tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing 
that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma 
objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work 
out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth 
go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, 
rape, drink and burn.

Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen

Bill,

There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion  
are multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others  
impossible as they are artifacts of our existence in human form.


I'm surprised that you accept anything as 'not illusion' based on  
past discussions, but if you accept pain then why not physical  
causality? If a brick drops on your foot, you accept that the pain it  
causes is real, but not that the brick dropping on your foot caused it?


Edgar



On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:15 PM, billsm...@hhs1963.org  
billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:



Anthony,

You'll have to re-read some of my previous posts. In them I clearly  
stated that 'pain' (actually the sense of touch) is NOT AN ILLUSION.


...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]  
On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:28 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you  
reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or  
whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are  
real there, including suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are  
all illusions.


Anthony







RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if 
confronted with someone who was threatening your life?

I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do.  If I knew what 
I would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time, and 
then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha Nature.

I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when confronted with 
danger: flight or fight.  I would either try to get away - that could be by 
using persuasive talk or actually running away; or fight - that also could be 
with threatening talk or behavior, but could include physical assault.  If what 
you are looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not 
commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case.

Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: who's 
asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that moment.

I hope that response satisfies you.  It satisfies me.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case:
-  If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death.
-  If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma.
 
Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your 
reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry 
about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if 
you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present.
 
Anthony




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen

Bill,

The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he  
can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the  
opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the  
moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained.


Edgar



On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


Anthony,

I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would  
you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?


I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I  
knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all  
out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha  
Nature.


I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when  
confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get  
away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running  
away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or  
behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are  
looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not  
commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case.


Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment:  
who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that  
moment.


I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]  
On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word.  
In my case:

- If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death.
- If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma.

Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious  
what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are  
writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react  
differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer  
because you only have 'just this' at the present.


Anthony







Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen

Chris,

I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in.

Edgar


On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:14 PM, cid830 wrote:


Edgar,

This is a very good point!

Please forgive me for butting in, but...

It was a samurai's duty to be prepared for the fight. I'm not sure
of how many samurai's were actually zen 'masters', but it is my
understanding that they practiced zen as part of their training.
Being trained in their skill did not mean they were planning ahead
of time how they would react to a certain situation. They were not
to anticipate or worry about what might happen. It meant that they
would be able to precisely act from Buddha Nature to the situation
at hand. The combat training gave them the fighting skills, and the
zen training gave them the ability to implement those skills without
the fear of death or other thoughts that may hinder their
fighting ability. In the Zone, so to speak. This is the theory as I
see it anyway.

Again, sorry for jumping into your discussion. I'm sure Bill will
have a much better response.

Thank You,

Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgaro...@... wrote:

 Bill,

 The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim
he
 can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the
 opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in
the
 moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained.

 Edgar



 On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billsm...@... wrote:

  Anthony,
 
  I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What
would
  you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?
 
  I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do.
If I
  knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it
all
  out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not
Buddha
  Nature.
 
  I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when
  confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to
get
  away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually
running
  away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or
  behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are
  looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and
not
  commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the
case.
 
  Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire
moment:
  who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at
that
  moment.
 
  I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]
  On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
 
  Bill,
 
  I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper
word.
  In my case:
  - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death.
  - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad
karma.
 
  Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still
curious
  what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you
are
  writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react
  differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot
answer
  because you only have 'just this' at the present.
 
  Anthony
 
 
 








Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen

Chris,

But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios.

Edgar


On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:54 PM, cid830 wrote:


Edgar,

I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL.

My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his
response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will
happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I
see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The
zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his
Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or
may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen
practice. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect
to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature?

This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for
situations that never happened. I used to run what if scenarios thru
my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice
helped me tremendously!

Thanks again,

Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgaro...@... wrote:

 Chris,

 I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in.

 Edgar







RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I am satisfied with your answer regarding your possible reaction to violence. 
But not as concerns your statement that there is no rule in the world. I can 
give you some:
 
Rule No.1: there are Newton's laws and all other nonsense in physics for the 
material world.
 
Rule No.2: Bill reacts to violence aggressively, never passively.
 
Rule No.3: when we are stabbed with a needle, we feel pain and cry 'ough'.
 
Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 15/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:22 PM






Anthony,

I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if 
confronted with someone who was threatening your life?

I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I knew what I 
would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time, and 
then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha Nature.

I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when confronted with 
danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get away - that could be by 
using persuasive talk or actually running away; or fight - that also could be 
with threatening talk or behavior, but could include physical assault. If what 
you are looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not 
commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case.

Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: who's 
asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that moment.

I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me.

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case:
- If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death.
- If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma.

Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your 
reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry 
about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if 
you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present.

Anthony

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Chris,
 
I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all 
anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to 
respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen 
master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At 
around 100 years of age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, 
which was recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and 
the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote:

From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM






Edgar,

I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL.

My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his 
response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will 
happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I 
see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The 
zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his 
Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or 
may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen 
practice. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect 
to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature?

This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for 
situations that never happened. I used to run what if scenarios thru 
my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice 
helped me tremendously!

Thanks again,

Chris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen edgaro...@. .. wrote:

 Chris,
 
 I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in.
 
 Edgar

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Al,
 
If you talk like that to a mahayana fan, he will be very upset. But it will be 
another thing, if you ask him to walk the talk.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 4:11 AM






Anthony Wu  -  A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear 
of hurting the maggots and the dog 

That's not funny, that's sick.

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Edgar Owen

Anthony,

Was it mental suffering or physical pain? An important distinction is  
to be made.


Edgar


On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Chris,

I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However,  
not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big  
question here: how to respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed?  
Take for example the famous zen master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree  
he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At around 100 years of  
age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, which was  
recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and  
the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that.


Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote:
From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM

Edgar,

I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL.

My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his
response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will
happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I
see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The
zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his
Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or
may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen
practice.. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect
to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature?

This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for
situations that never happened. I used to run what if scenarios thru
my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice
helped me tremendously!

Thanks again,

Chris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen edgaro...@. .. wrote:

 Chris,

 I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in.

 Edgar


New Email names for you!
Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and  
@rocketmail.

Hurry before someone else does!






RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Ahhh...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of fitness4u2163
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

billsm...@...  OUCH!
 
 
What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole?
 

__ NOD32 3768 (20090115) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Edgar,

First of all, I personally wouldn't use a samurai as an example of someone
acting in accordance with Buddha Nature, but I know that is the idealized
and romanticized mythos that is popular today.

To answer your question: yes, a samurai (or anyone else) who prepares for a
particular situation CAN act from Buddha Nature, however I'd think that
would be more difficult to do than if he had NOT prepared in advance.  But,
it is not impossible if he acts with a clear mind (Buddha Nature).

I think, however, you are not properly extending the zen component to your
idealized samurai when you state that with preparation he could act more
'efficiently'.  Efficiency implies a goal against which results of your
actions can be measured.  The idealized, enlightened zen-monk/samurai would
not have a goal.  He would practice his swordsmanship for the same reason I
practice zazen:  not to achieve a goal (like enlightenment or victory or
maintaining honor), but because that is an expression of Buddha Nature.  The
outcome of that practice is not the point, it is just the practice.  Just
THIS!

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:45 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he can't
then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the opposite, by
preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the moment far more
efficiently than if he had not trained.

Edgar





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread BillSmart
Edgar,

I believe direct experiences are real.  These include sensory sensations and
emotions.

I believe intellectualizing creates illusions.  This includes concepts and
all discrimination (dualism).

As far as a brick dropping on my foot I believe:
- I don't know whether the brick is real or an illusion.  The concept I have
of bricks is an illusion.
- The image I see of the brick (if I see it) is real.
- The concept of cause-and-effect related to this 'event' is illusory.
- The pain is real.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:11 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion are
multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others impossible as they
are artifacts of our existence in human form.

I'm surprised that you accept anything as 'not illusion' based on past
discussions, but if you accept pain then why not physical causality? If a
brick drops on your foot, you accept that the pain it causes is real, but
not that the brick dropping on your foot caused it?

Edgar







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Physical pain was obvious. Whether mental was also present I don't know.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote:

From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:22 AM






Anthony,


Was it mental suffering or physical pain? An important distinction is to be 
made.


Edgar





On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Chris,
 
I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all 
anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to 
respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen 
master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At 
around 100 years of age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, 
which was recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and 
the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att. net wrote:

From: cid830 summitj...@att. net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM




Edgar,

I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL.

My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his 
response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will 
happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I 
see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The 
zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his 
Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or 
may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen 
practice.. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect 
to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature?

This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for 
situations that never happened. I used to run what if scenarios thru 
my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice 
helped me tremendously!

Thanks again,

Chris

--- in zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen edgaro...@. .. wrote:

 Chris,
 
 I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in.
 
 Edgar




New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!


 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Anthony Wu
Chris,
 
There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I 
tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing 
that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma 
objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work 
out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth 
go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, 
rape, drink and burn.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote:

From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM






I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has 
theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But 
I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think 
JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain 
the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this 
make any sense? 

Thank You,

Chris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote:

 Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in.
 

 














  Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to 
Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-15 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Hi Al,  why do you say unfortunately? what do you have in mind?  JM

fitness4u2163 wrote:

 Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for
 any energy that causes Good or bad are just human interpretations
 of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward
 system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms.
 

 I can relate to that, because accountability is important to me and I
 think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally
 subjective bullshit.

 Unfortunately, you are in California, and I am here. I mean here (I
 moved).

  



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on 
earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with 
killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are 
being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When 
you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer 
is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM






Anthony and Mike,

I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from 
Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I 
agree with it for the most part.

As for Anthony's questions below:
- Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when 
refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important 
part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about 
these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about 
what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When 
washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS!

- The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to 
intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ!

Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 
14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling 
and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries 
and Teisho on the case.

Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen 
Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole 
may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem 
with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. 
Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of 
a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be 
misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any 
event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all 
your books.

The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a 
trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature.

Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com.. 
If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me 
on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address 
I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org.

Thanks...Bill! 

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Mike,

Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, 
after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.

I have read:
- Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between 
two groups of monks.
- Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a 
porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
- Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry 
them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource..
- A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and 
the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)

What do you think of them?

Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk wrote:
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the 
beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing 
inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which 
demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but 
which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a 
constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. 
This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and 
rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of 
society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an 
immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his 
culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no 
thought of what is 'just', good/bad according

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
Uerusuboyo wa nan desuka?

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:57 PM












Oops! Sorry, I forgot to include Mike.

Chris

 














  Get your new Email address!
Grab the Email name you#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach 
nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call 
it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including 
suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are all illusions.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM






OUCH!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. 

How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I 
have trouble believing you consider it illusion.

Anthony

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Edgar Owen

Anthony,

Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue):

During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a  
lone monk seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage.


Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, Aren't you worried  
about dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye.


The monk responded, And I could be killed by you right now without  
batting an eye.


Edgar




On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Bill,

I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in  
paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where  
you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering.  
When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be  
killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no  
money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is  
killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him  
killed?


Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org  
wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM

Anthony and Mike,

I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting  
posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's)  
and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part.


As for Anthony's questions below:
- Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are:  
wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep  
when tired. The important part about these are not that they are  
remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you  
DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to  
do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing  
your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS!


- The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to  
intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ!


Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again.  
It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about  
the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to  
the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case.


Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the  
Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a  
porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type  
of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His  
comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't  
overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a  
quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just  
words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may  
not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery  
Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books.


The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of  
Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in  
Buddha Nature.


Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from  
zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY  
want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an  
alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the  
forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org.


Thanks...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou  
ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Mike,

Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen  
practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and  
acting beyond ego'.


I have read:
- Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious  
quarrel between two groups of monks.
- Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared  
having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive  
to get out).
- Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with  
tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious  
resource..
- A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the  
maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of  
certain thinkings)


What do you think of them?

Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk wrote:
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually  
adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/ 
her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a  
person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance  
with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a  
conflict with his individual conscience

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread Anthony Wu

Edgar,
 
Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea 
about it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote:

From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:47 PM






Anthony,


Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue):


During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk 
seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage.


Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, Aren't you worried about 
dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye.


The monk responded, And I could be killed by you right now without batting an 
eye.


Edgar









On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:











Bill,
 
I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on 
earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with 
killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are 
being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When 
you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer 
is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963. org billsm...@hhs1963. org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM




Anthony and Mike,

I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from 
Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I 
agree with it for the most part.

As for Anthony's questions below:
- Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when 
refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important 
part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about 
these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about 
what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When 
washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS!

- The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to 
intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ!

Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 
14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling 
and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries 
and Teisho on the case.

Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen 
Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole 
may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem 
with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. 
Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of 
a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be 
misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any 
event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all 
your books.

The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a 
trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature.

Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If 
you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on 
the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I 
use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org.

Thanks...Bill! 

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Mike,

Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, 
after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.

I have read:
- Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between 
two groups of monks.
- Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a 
porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
- Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry 
them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource..
- A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and 
the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)

What do you think of them?

Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk wrote:
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the 
beliefs, moral, ethics

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

It seems to me you're really obsessed with this killing thing.

My advice to you is to quit thinking about 'what you should do' if you 
encounter a killer.  That's like worrying about 'what kind of soap you should 
use' when washing your bowls.  Just sit, clear you mind, allow you Buddha 
Nature to function freely and you won't be so obsessed with wondering about 
what you would do in any specific situation.  When the situation comes up you 
will act in accordance with your Buddha Nature, just as you do when you are 
washing your bowls.

Asking me what I would do in any specific situation is useless.  What I would 
do or not do should not be a template for you.  You must discover you Buddha 
Nature and then you won't have to think about how you would act.  In fact 'you' 
don't act.  There is no 'you'.  There is Just THIS!

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on 
earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with 
killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are 
being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When 
you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer 
is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed?
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-14 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

You'll have to re-read some of my previous posts.  In them I clearly stated 
that 'pain' (actually the sense of touch) is NOT AN ILLUSION.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:28 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach 
nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call 
it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including 
suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are all illusions.
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

From reading your posting attached below I think you are talking about 
'accountability', not 'justification.  thefreedictionary.com defines 'justify' 
as To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid.  It defines 
'accountability as: Liable to being called to account; answerable.

The concept of 'karma' is the Buddhist vehicle for accountability.  The concept 
of 'cause-and-effect' is the Newtonian equivalent.

I don't 'deny' karma.  I see it to be 'maya', and like most other intellectual 
concepts, including 'cause-and-effect', to be illusory.  If you believe in 
karma, then it certainly can have an effect on you.  You could harbor guilt for 
doing something you think is 'wrong', and that certainly could affect your 
future actions.

But then any illusion can have an effect on you if you believe it.  If you 
believe in God and sin and Heaven and Hell then you might believe if you do 
something 'wrong' you might go to Hell when you die.  You might also believe if 
you really, really regret doing whatever you did, and you ask God for 
forgiveness, you will be forgiven, and then still be eligible for Heaven.  Does 
this mean God and sin and Heaven and Hell are not illusory?

I believe they are, and so is karma.

To finish off replying to your post, I don't believe there is a 'rule of this 
universe'.

There's Just THIS!

...Bill!   

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
Good question!
 
My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. 
It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me 
someday to result in a very bad situation where I will suffer a lot. In other 
words, actions do not need to be justified to anybody, but they will affect the 
doer. Justification may not be a right word, but you know what I mean. I know 
you don't believe in karma. Tell me what is the rule of this universe? What 
will happen to me if I steal something? Nothing? If you deny karma, but accept 
Newton's laws, you are saying that the material world has a very precise rule, 
but spiritually everything is haphazard.
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
Al,
 
Can you clarify What amoral system can ease some zen practitioners' conscience?
 
Some time ago, I admired Tantric Buddhism on their detailed treatment of the 
bardo system. But when I read further, I was scared of their sex rituals, which 
they claim can only be practised by the 'most advanced' practitioners. Is this 
a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for playboys in this world, but not in 
a monastry, I think.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:01 PM






Anthony Wu  Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon 
as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. 

It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is 
some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do 
evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. 

 














  Adding more friends is quick and easy. Import them over to Yahoo! Mail 
today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word.
 
However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory.
 
Do you also think Newton's law is illusory.
 
I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory?
 
So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they 
illusory?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:14 PM






Anthony,

From reading your posting attached below I think you are talking about 
'accountability' , not 'justification. thefreedictionary. com defines 
'justify' as To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid. It defines 
'accountability as: Liable to being called to account; answerable.

The concept of 'karma' is the Buddhist vehicle for accountability. The concept 
of 'cause-and-effect' is the Newtonian equivalent.

I don't 'deny' karma. I see it to be 'maya', and like most other intellectual 
concepts, including 'cause-and-effect' , to be illusory. If you believe in 
karma, then it certainly can have an effect on you. You could harbor guilt for 
doing something you think is 'wrong', and that certainly could affect your 
future actions.

But then any illusion can have an effect on you if you believe it. If you 
believe in God and sin and Heaven and Hell then you might believe if you do 
something 'wrong' you might go to Hell when you die. You might also believe if 
you really, really regret doing whatever you did, and you ask God for 
forgiveness, you will be forgiven, and then still be eligible for Heaven. Does 
this mean God and sin and Heaven and Hell are not illusory?

I believe they are, and so is karma.

To finish off replying to your post, I don't believe there is a 'rule of this 
universe'.

There's Just THIS!

Bill! 

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:06 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

Good question!

My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. 
It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me 
someday to result in a very bad situation where I will suffer a lot. In other 
words, actions do not need to be justified to anybody, but they will affect the 
doer. Justification may not be a right word, but you know what I mean. I know 
you don't believe in karma. Tell me what is the rule of this universe? What 
will happen to me if I steal something? Nothing? If you deny karma, but accept 
Newton's laws, you are saying that the material world has a very precise rule, 
but spiritually everything is haphazard.

Anthony

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you 
have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly with zen.

Actually, EVERYTHING is not illusory - but everything that comes about through 
intellectualization is.  Certainly Newton's Laws are illusory.  They're the 
product of his intellect.  Your understanding of them is the product of your 
intellect.  Intellectualizations are illusory.

Pain is not illusory.  Starving and dying are not illusory.  SUFFERING from 
pain or starving or dying is illusory.

The idea that all suffering is illusion is the basic tenant of Buddhism.  What 
books have you been reading lately?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word.
 
However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory.
 
Do you also think Newton's law is illusory.
 
I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory?
 
So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they 
illusory?
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Hi Edgar!  I haven't seen posts from you in a while.  I thought maybe you'd
transcended this plane into a higher one.  Thanks for your post and your
comments.

I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense
of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said
...aspects of the objective world are not illusory is invalid, although I
could see where you could make that interpretation.  It all depends on how
and to what you apply the term 'aspect'.

Your dualistic mind creates the objective world.  It is an illusion.
Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world.  The objective world is
an aspect of your dualistic mind.  Your immediate perceptions (like sense of
touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real.  They are aspects of
your Buddha Nature.  As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and
intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or bad, you
are creating illusions.

I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it.  I always try
to directly address a post if I'm responding to it.  I've the term 'sense of
touch' in this post to be more precise.  'Pain' could be interpreted as an
unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch.  As soon as you classify the sense
of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing.  

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not
illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything,
that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha
nature in the foot!

Care to clarify?

That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of
illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping.

Edgar





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Well, may I interrupt. This is fun.

The word/concept of illusion is an illusion.  Likewise, levels of 
illusion is an illusion.
The word/concept of karma, believe and not believe in karma a is an 
illusion.

Illusion in this case means our mental exercise.  All forms, I mean ALL, 
which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our 
conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent.

After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the 
universe.  Some called this vast emptiness.  Yet in this vast emptiness, 
there is this exquisite existence -- life force.

I throw in the word nakedly for Al.  :-)
JM


billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe you'd
 transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your
 comments.

 I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense
 of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said
 ...aspects of the objective world are not illusory is invalid, 
 although I
 could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends on how
 and to what you apply the term 'aspect'.

 Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion.
 Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective world is
 an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like 
 sense of
 touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of
 your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and
 intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or 
 bad, you
 are creating illusions.

 I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I 
 always try
 to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term 
 'sense of
 touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted as an
 unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the 
 sense
 of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing.

 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.

 ...Bill!

 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Edgar Owen
 Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

 Bill,

 You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not
 illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that 
 everything,
 that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha
 nature in the foot!

 Care to clarify?

 That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of
 illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping.

 Edgar

  



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Edgar Owen

JM,

I agree with your view that all form is illusion rather than Bill's  
view that such things as sensory input are real and not illusion.  
Form doesn't apply just to visual or tactile forms, it includes  
everything other than pure formless ontological energy.


Then go one step further and realize that the forms are what appear  
in the reality of the conscious present moment, so we must accept  
that the forms, seen as illusion are what is real, as well as the  
formless energy of which they are forms.


Edgar



On Jan 13, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:


Well, may I interrupt. This is fun.

The word/concept of illusion is an illusion. Likewise, levels of
illusion is an illusion.
The word/concept of karma, believe and not believe in karma a is an
illusion.

Illusion in this case means our mental exercise. All forms, I mean  
ALL,

which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our
conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent.

After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the
universe. Some called this vast emptiness. Yet in this vast emptiness,
there is this exquisite existence -- life force.

I throw in the word nakedly for Al. :-)
JM

billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought  
maybe you'd
 transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post  
and your

 comments.

 I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such  
as sense
 of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that  
I said

 ...aspects of the objective world are not illusory is invalid,
 although I
 could see where you could make that interpretation. It all  
depends on how

 and to what you apply the term 'aspect'.

 Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion.
 Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective  
world is

 an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like
 sense of
 touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are  
aspects of

 your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and
 intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or
 bad, you
 are creating illusions.

 I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I
 always try
 to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term
 'sense of
 touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be  
interpreted as an
 unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify  
the

 sense
 of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing.

 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.

 ...Bill!

 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
 Of Edgar Owen
 Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

 Bill,

 You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not
 illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that
 everything,
 that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own  
Buddha

 nature in the foot!

 Care to clarify?

 That being said I certainly agree that there are different  
'levels' of

 illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping.

 Edgar








RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. 
 
How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I 
have trouble believing you consider it illusion.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 9:09 PM






Anthony,

If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you 
have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly with zen.

Actually, EVERYTHING is not illusory - but everything that comes about through 
intellectualization is. Certainly Newton's Laws are illusory. They're the 
product of his intellect. Your understanding of them is the product of your 
intellect. Intellectualization s are illusory.

Pain is not illusory. Starving and dying are not illusory. SUFFERING from pain 
or starving or dying is illusory.

The idea that all suffering is illusion is the basic tenant of Buddhism. What 
books have you been reading lately?

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,

Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word.

However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory.

Do you also think Newton's law is illusory.

I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory?

So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they 
illusory?

Anthony

 














  Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to 
Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Anthony Wu
Mike,
 
Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, 
after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.
 
I have read:
-  Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel 
between two groups of monks.
-  Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a 
porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
-  Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry 
them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.
-  A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots 
and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)
 
What do you think of them?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM











Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the 
beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing 
inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which 
demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but 
which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a 
constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. 
This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and 
rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of 
society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an 
immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his 
culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no 
thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes 
from outside of himself. 

So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always 
open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a 
belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces 
behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major 
religions.

Mike


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1963@ yahoo.com wrote:






Anthony Wu  Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon 
as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. 

It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is 
some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do 
evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. 


 














  Adding more friends is quick and easy. Import them over to Yahoo! Mail 
today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Edgar,

If we carry even further, the term/concept of Just This as well as 
Chi are also forms and illusionary. 

These terms exist purely for convenience sake.  Any action which accepts 
or reject any of it, is just a mental exercise.  Therefore meaningless.

:-)
JM


Edgar Owen wrote:

 JM,


 I agree with your view that all form is illusion rather than Bill's 
 view that such things as sensory input are real and not illusion. Form 
 doesn't apply just to visual or tactile forms, it includes everything 
 other than pure formless ontological energy.

 Then go one step further and realize that the forms are what appear in 
 the reality of the conscious present moment, so we must accept that 
 the forms, seen as illusion are what is real, as well as the formless 
 energy of which they are forms.

 Edgar



 On Jan 13, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

 Well, may I interrupt. This is fun.

 The word/concept of illusion is an illusion. Likewise, levels of 
 illusion is an illusion.
 The word/concept of karma, believe and not believe in karma a is an 
 illusion.

 Illusion in this case means our mental exercise. All forms, I mean ALL, 
 which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our 
 conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent.

 After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the 
 universe. Some called this vast emptiness. Yet in this vast emptiness, 
 there is this exquisite existence -- life force.

 I throw in the word nakedly for Al. :-)
 JM

 billsm...@hhs1963.org mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org wrote:
 
  Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe 
 you'd
  transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your
  comments.
 
  I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as 
 sense
  of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said
  ...aspects of the objective world are not illusory is invalid, 
  although I
  could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends 
 on how
  and to what you apply the term 'aspect'.
 
  Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion.
  Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective 
 world is
  an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like 
  sense of
  touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of
  your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and
  intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or 
  bad, you
  are creating illusions.
 
  I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I 
  always try
  to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term 
  'sense of
  touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted 
 as an
  unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the 
  sense
  of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing.
 
  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
  [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
  mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
  Of Edgar Owen
  Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
 
  Bill,
 
  You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not
  illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that 
  everything,
  that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha
  nature in the foot!
 
  Care to clarify?
 
  That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of
  illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping.
 
  Edgar
 
  


  



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Anthony and Mike,

I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from 
Mike.  I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I 
agree with it for the most part.

As for Anthony's questions below:
- Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are:  wake when 
refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired.  The 
important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part 
about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM.  You don't think 
about what you're going to do later when you are eating.  When eating, Just 
EAT!  When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS!  Always, Just THIS!

- The stories you read are just stories - zen stories.  Don't try to 
intellectualize them.  When you read them Just READ!

Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again.  It's Case 
14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection.  The part about the monks quarreling 
and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story.  Read the Commentaries 
and Teisho on the case.

Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen 
Buddhist tradition.  His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole 
may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction.  Maybe he had a problem 
with addiction to sex.  His comparison may only apply to him and not to you.  
Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of 
a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be 
misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you.  In any 
event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all 
your books.

The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a 
trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature.

Mike,  I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com.  
If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me 
on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something.  My email 
address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963.org.

Thanks...Bill!   

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Mike,
 
Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, 
after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.
 
I have read:
-  Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel 
between two groups of monks.
-  Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a 
porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
-  Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry 
them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource..
-  A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots 
and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)
 
What do you think of them?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the 
beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing 
inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which 
demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but 
which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a 
constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. 
This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and 
rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of 
society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an 
immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his 
culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no 
thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes 
from outside of himself. 

So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always 
open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a 
belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces 
behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major 
religions.

Mike


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1963@ yahoo.com wrote:

Anthony Wu  Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon 
as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. 

It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is 
some amoral system to ease their conscience every

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
OUCH!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Bill,
 
I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. 
 
How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I 
have trouble believing you consider it illusion.
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread BillSmart
Edgar!

How could you say that!  I do believe you are Evil and Amoral!

I'll pray for you.

Wishing you only the best karma, I am...

...Bill!  


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:30 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Hi Bill,

It hasn't been hard to 'transcend the plane' of some of the recent
discussions! :-)

Edgar






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Good day All,

If I may jump in,  As an advanced practitioner, if there is such a 
term.,,

He/She shall know at every moment that every encounter in our lives is 
dharma.  It is the purpose of this advanced practitioner to fulfill, 
consummate, harmonize, resolve, without expectation, without judgment, 
without asking why or how.

As Nike said, Just do it.  I would append with, within our available 
resources.

The definition of a practitioner is to practice and apply.  The apply 
part is the sweetest.  It is th essence of Chan practice.
_/\_

billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 Anthony and Mike,

 I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting 
 posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and 
 wanted to say I agree with it for the most part.

 As for Anthony's questions below:
 - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake 
 when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. 
 The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the 
 important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY 
 THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are 
 eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR 
 BOWLS! Always, Just THIS!

 - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to 
 intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ!

 Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. 
 It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the 
 monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the 
 story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case.

 Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean 
 Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a 
 narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. 
 Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only 
 apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his 
 words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama 
 Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or 
 awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event 
 YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all 
 your books.

 The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of 
 Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in 
 Buddha Nature.

 Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from 
 Zen_Forum@Yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40Yahoogroups.com. If you 
 post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy 
 me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My 
 email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963.org 
 mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org.

 Thanks...Bill!

 From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com 
 [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
 Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

 Mike,

 Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner 
 can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.

 I have read:
 - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious 
 quarrel between two groups of monks.
 - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having 
 sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
 - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, 
 then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource..
 - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the 
 maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of 
 certain thinkings)

 What do you think of them?

 Anthony

 --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
 mailto:uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
 mailto:uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
 Hi Al,

 This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts 
 the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. 
 There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will 
 face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's 
 moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his 
 individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over 
 of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very 
 thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and 
 rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral 
 beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an 
 obstruction to executing an immediate

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-13 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
Hi Al,

What I have experienced about hurting others is that I will either get 
sick or get a head ache or some kind of discomfort in different levels. 

Many practitioners in our school can sense, transfer and eliminate 
karma.  In our school, karma is just a label for any energy that 
causes  Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after 
the fact.   It is not a believe system or a reward system.  Just simple 
cause and effect in Chi terms.

Additionally, the ten chakras observed in our practice correspond to the 
ten Buddha realms.  Meaning both heaven and hell are all within us.  
Those who hurt others are not at peace within themselves.  Violent 
people are never at peace with oneself.  A lot of times, they don't even 
know who they are.  Their actions are no different then animals.  In 
such case, they are then either in Asura or in Animal realm, two of the 
Buddhist realms. 

Did I answer your question?
JM

fitness4u2163 wrote:

 Jue Miao Jing Ming - The definition of a practitioner is to practice
 and apply. The apply part is the sweetest. It is essence of Chan
 practice.
 

 Do actions that hurt others create bad Chi?

  



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-12 Thread BillSmart
Al,

As I've told you before, you're thinking too hard and too much.  You need to
empty your 'self' out.

Don't try to judge others or their actions as 'good' or 'evil'.  Those are
just judgments you are making on them.  That's not to say if you see someone
getting assaulted that you shouldn't try to stop the assault, or help the
victim or punish the perpetrator - either physically or through your legal
profession.  When and if you do that, that's just something that happens.
It's not good or bad, and 'you' are not doing anything.  It's just Buddha
Nature being manifested by Al.

Karma is easy to understand.  It's maya.  It's not real.  If you believe in
it, then you'll look for evidence of it - and probably find some, or at
least enough to justify your belief to yourself.  Even if karma did exist it
should not be used to make up or justify your reasons for doing things or
not doing them.  You should not do things because you fear punishment or are
looking for a reward.  You don't even do things.  First of all, there is no
'you', and second of all there are no 'actions'.  There is just this moment
- Now.  Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of fitness4u2163
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Anthony Wu Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do 
is justified.
 

That's what I don't agree with, as I see that there are opposing 
forces (good  evil?) which are at work every day. Open the newspaper 
and there are people being killed and otherwise assaulted and those 
killers are not in the same Buddha Mind. 

I guess I am forgetting some of it, but there is an area that has 
never fully jelled in my understanding of karma, etc.
 

__ NOD32 3755 (20090109) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-12 Thread Anthony Wu
Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. Better than God, Allah or 
Buddha. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just 
dogmatic. They are right in many cases. We need something to get around 
religion.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 12/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:45 PM






Anthony Wu I can agree with all you say except for your statement that 
nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, 
drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'.
 

I think that is New Age Zen where everything is OK. I recall reading 
an old zen book that stated that there were some things that were not 
taught, such as moral values because the culture of Japan was such 
that these things were presumed and expected. 

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-11 Thread mike brown
Hi Chris,

I haven't been posting here for a while so it's good to be back to catch up 
with all the usual suspects! I couldn't help noticing your comment that you 
think Buddha-Nature is inherent in all of us. This is view that seems to 
contradict a fundamental tenet of Buddhism - that there is nothing inherent in 
any of us ie, nothing permanent. Isn't this why Buddha rejected Hinduism 
because of its belief that every person has an inherent atman (soul) which 
merges with Brahma when we die? What do you think? 

Mike



  

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Hris,
 
I fully agree with you. I don't say those religions are 'bad', except for some 
advocating killing of innocent. But in regard to letting go of attachments, we 
have to go somewhere else.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 9/1/09, cid830 summitj...@att.net wrote:

From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 1:31 AM






What I believe is that we live in a dualistic world. Our minds attach 
to forms in a dualistic way. If you can break your attachment to this 
dualism and dissolve your Ego, you can get in touch with your True 
Self. I believe you can do this through daily meditation accompanied 
by a good belief system. Not just any belief system will get you 
there, but many will. These religions you have mentioned I think 
all teach attatchments of one sort or another. But many will teach you 
to let go of these attatchemnts. 

Please remember that I claim to be no expert in these matters. I only 
relate from my experience and my limited base of knowledge. What has 
worked for me may not be right for you. 

I hope you find YOUR way, Al.

Sincerely,

hris

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, fitness4u2163 fitness1963@ ... 
wrote:

 cid830I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle. In a non-
 dualistic existence that can only be experienced through strict 
 adherence to a certain belief system along with deep meditation.
  
  
 What you believe is duality and your solution is Christianity or 
 Judaism or some other strict belief system (Muslim?). You are like 
the 
 square peg trying to get into the round hole.


 














  Start chatting with friends on the all-new Yahoo! Pingbox today! It's 
easy to create your personal chat space on your blogs. 
http://sg.messenger.yahoo.com/pingbox

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Bill,
 
Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is 
carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in two different 
characters?
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 9/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 8:09 AM






Anthony, I'm not advocating you sit on a pillow forever. Formal sitting with a 
teacher is a good way to learn to do zazen, but like anything else after you've 
learned the basics you should extend the activity into your entire life. It's 
the same for zazen. Just drop the 'za' part (which means 'sit' in Japanese - I 
think) and what you have left is 'zen'. You can sit zen (zazen), you can walk 
zen, you can talk zen and you can change the oil in your car's engine zen.

Or as you suggest you can constantly oscillate between suffering and fun.

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:54 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Are you advocating that we should all just sit on a pillow until it stinks, and 
that is all? That is why I say no suffering, no fun.
Anthony

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963. org billsm...@hhs1963. org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 3:53 PM
Al is correct. Just THIS! Some of us think it's heaven and some of us
think it's hell. Whatever we think of it, it's Just THIS!

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Zen_ fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
Of fitness4u2163
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

cid830 I don't have to rely on my faith to carry me into the 
promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us!
 
 

That is as much a fantasy as anything else. To some degree it is a lot 
worse and more pathetic to walk this earth thinking it is heaven. I 
certainly hope that this is not as good as it gets. Read the news and 
every day there is no end to the murders, rapes, killing of children, 
and numerous other incidents that are much more horrible than anything 
a normal person can imagine. 

By the way, in case you all haven't figured it out, satori is a pure 
fantasy and all those altered states that are written about are the 
purest form of bullshit ever created. When they say that there is no 
there, they aren't kidding. It is all here, and that is it. Nothing 
more. No nothing. You can sit your ass on a pillow for the rest of 
eternity, and the only thing that will happen is the pillow will 
stink. 

__ NOD32 3741 (20090105) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset. com

 _ _ _ _
Get your preferred Email name! 
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.


__ NOD32 3750 (20090108) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset. com

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
Chris,

You asked:

Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot.
Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in
two different characters?

My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us?  If we all do indeed 
share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we all just different expressions of 
that same Buddha Mind, or Buddha Mind seen from different perspectives?

...Bill!





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Most words are hollow.

--- On Sat, 10/1/09, fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:50 AM






cid830 I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm 
talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am 
looking for. 

Words that ring hollow. 

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread Anthony Wu
Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet 
to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have 
been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things 
look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is 
justified.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:00 AM






Chris,

You asked:

Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot.
Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in
two different characters?

My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us? If we all do indeed 
share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we all just different expressions of 
that same Buddha Mind, or Buddha Mind seen from different perspectives?

Bill!

 














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,

The word 'Buddha Mind' is used to communicate something - an experience. It is 
hollow if it is not successful in communicating.  I started to write a more 
detailed response to your post, but remembered a good quote that I think makes 
the point pretty well:

The original mind or true self of the human being is the proper ground of 
enlightenment. Original Mind is the intrinsic essence of mind, the true self. 
It is inherently pure and good, and in Christian terms it can be said to 
participate in the Kingdom of God. In Eastern traditions it is prior to 
thought, prior to desire, prior to any conceptualization at all. It is 
discovered by stripping away all sensation, desire, concepts, intellection, 
volition, and awareness of I. It partakes of the Oneness of all. Buddhism 
calls this mind the Buddha Nature, and much of Buddhist practice is aimed at 
its realization. They also call it no-mind because it is without any grasping 
at a (selfish) self. Taoists seek to strip away all intellection and formalism 
in order to arrive at the spontaneous activity of the natural man, who lives at 
one with the Tao of the universe.  (Unfortunately I do not know the source of 
this quote, but it is self-explanatory and really does not need to be 
authenticated by knowing the name of its author)

I often call this 'Just THIS!'.

Original mind, Buddha Mind, no-mind, Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven proceeded 
Buddha, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Christianity and zen.  All of these, except 
zen, are religions built up around someone's experience of Just THIS! and their 
subsequent attempts to share this experience with their followers.  I exclude 
zen (as distinct to Zen Buddhism) because zen does not have all the trappings 
of a religion, but does share the attempt to share the experience with others - 
but I've gone into my views on all of that ad nauseum in many previous postings.

To you last point in your posting:
 The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all
have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified.

If you operate from your Buddha Mind, everything is easy.  No effort.  No 
indecisions.  No mind.  Just THIS!

Nothing is 'justified', nor needs to be justified.  To whom would you justify 
it?  What is 'justice'?  All just is.  Just THIS!  Nothing more.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet 
to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have 
been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things 
look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is 
justified.
 
Anthony





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-09 Thread BillSmart
Zen practice enables emptiness.  If truly empty there is no 'you'; and if
there is no 'you' then there is room for everything.  ..Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of cid830
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:45 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside.





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread Anthony Wu
Are you advocating that we should all just sit on a pillow until it stinks, and 
that is all? That is why I say no suffering, no fun.
Anthony

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 3:53 PM






Al is correct. Just THIS! Some of us think it's heaven and some of us
think it's hell. Whatever we think of it, it's Just THIS!

Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
Of fitness4u2163
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

cid830 I don't have to rely on my faith to carry me into the 
promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us!
 
 

That is as much a fantasy as anything else. To some degree it is a lot 
worse and more pathetic to walk this earth thinking it is heaven. I 
certainly hope that this is not as good as it gets. Read the news and 
every day there is no end to the murders, rapes, killing of children, 
and numerous other incidents that are much more horrible than anything 
a normal person can imagine. 

By the way, in case you all haven't figured it out, satori is a pure 
fantasy and all those altered states that are written about are the 
purest form of bullshit ever created. When they say that there is no 
there, they aren't kidding. It is all here, and that is it. Nothing 
more. No nothing. You can sit your ass on a pillow for the rest of 
eternity, and the only thing that will happen is the pillow will 
stink. 


__ NOD32 3741 (20090105) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset. com

 














  New Email names for you! 
Get the Email name you#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. 
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-08 Thread BillSmart
Anthony,  I'm not advocating you sit on a pillow forever. Formal sitting with a 
teacher is a good way to learn to do zazen, but like anything else after you've 
learned the basics you should extend the activity into your entire life.  It's 
the same for zazen.  Just drop the 'za' part (which means 'sit' in Japanese - I 
think) and what you have left is 'zen'.  You can sit zen (zazen), you can walk 
zen, you can talk zen and you can change the oil in your car's engine zen.

Or as you suggest you can constantly oscillate between suffering and fun.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:54 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Are you advocating that we should all just sit on a pillow until it stinks, and 
that is all? That is why I say no suffering, no fun.
Anthony

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 3:53 PM
Al is correct. Just THIS! Some of us think it's heaven and some of us
think it's hell. Whatever we think of it, it's Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
Of fitness4u2163
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

cid830 I don't have to rely on my faith to carry me into the 
promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us!
 
 

That is as much a fantasy as anything else. To some degree it is a lot 
worse and more pathetic to walk this earth thinking it is heaven. I 
certainly hope that this is not as good as it gets. Read the news and 
every day there is no end to the murders, rapes, killing of children, 
and numerous other incidents that are much more horrible than anything 
a normal person can imagine. 

By the way, in case you all haven't figured it out, satori is a pure 
fantasy and all those altered states that are written about are the 
purest form of bullshit ever created. When they say that there is no 
there, they aren't kidding. It is all here, and that is it. Nothing 
more. No nothing. You can sit your ass on a pillow for the rest of 
eternity, and the only thing that will happen is the pillow will 
stink. 


__ NOD32 3741 (20090105) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset. com


Get your preferred Email name! 
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com.
 

__ NOD32 3750 (20090108) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

* To change settings via email:
mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Anthony Wu
So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to 
interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely 
subjective depending on who the teacher is.



That is basically the way the world is. Everything must be open to 
interpretation. The book you mention seems to advocate blind following. 
 
Anthony














  Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/

Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Vince
That is one way of looking at it, true. But, keep in mind, if I misinterpret a 
koan, I'm not doomed to spend eternity burning in a pit of fire.





From: fitness4u2163 fitness1...@yahoo.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:04:11 AM
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God


Vince There is way to much ambiguity for me.
 

So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to 
interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely 
subjective depending on who the teacher is.

HO HO HO



Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-06 Thread Vince
Excellent point, indeed.





From: cid830 summitj...@att.net
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:08:19 AM
Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God


I know you didn't ask me, but... I prefer Zen Buddhism because it is 
a direct way of experiencing heaven in the here and now. I don't 
have to rely on my faith to carry me into the promised land, after 
I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us!

Later,

Chrs

--- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Vince everythingzen1971@ ... 
wrote:

 That is one way of looking at it, true. But, keep in mind, if I 
misinterpret a koan, I'm not doomed to spend eternity burning in a 
pit of fire.
 
 
 
 
  _ _ __
 From: fitness4u2163 fitness1963@ ...
 To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
 Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:04:11 AM
 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
 
 
 Vince There is way to much ambiguity for me.
  
 
 So instead you prefer zen buddhism, where every koan is open to 
 interpretation and most of it is totally undefined and completely 
 subjective depending on who the teacher is.
 
 HO HO HO




Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

2009-01-05 Thread Vince
I guess this is where I've run into problems with general Christianity. Some of 
the bible is open to interpretation. Some of it is not. Some of it must be 
strictly followed. Some of it you CAN'T follow. There is way to much ambiguity 
for me.







I have found it to be very spiritually uplifting. It connects the 
Bible to the positive messages and how Christianity is not about 
hatred, etc. It also points out that some messages in the Bible are 
not up for interpretation, and why. I have enjoyed the book so far. It 
has re-defined some of my thinking about some topics. 

I guess it also depends on your own field of experience. Some issues 
are more interesting to me than others, but I have enjoyed reading the 
points of view and ideas. The book is like a discussion, and I enjoy 
the thoughtful tone.