RE: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
ED, In my experience and the best that I can express it, Samadhi (shikantaza/clear mind/Buddha Mind) WITHOUT awareness appears BEFORE kensho. Kensho (the way I use the word) is the AWARENESS of Buddha Mind. AFTER kensho samadhi/shikantaza/clear mind/Buddha Mind continues, but continues WITH awareness. An analogy (maybe a poor one) is learning to ride a bicycle. - first you learn the basics by riding with training wheels. All the while you are riding you are very aware of your dependency on the training wheels. This is beginning zazen. - after some time someone removes the training wheels, but YOU AREN'T AWARE they're gone. You ride along okay not really thinking anything about the training wheels. This is like samadhi/shikantaza/clear mind/Buddha Mind BEFORE kensho. - then all of a sudden you BECOME AWARE that you are riding WITHOUT any training wheels! This is kensho. - after kensho you get on your bike and ride all over the neighborhood, just going wherever you want, and the thought of training wheels does not even enter you mind. This is samadhi/shikantaza/clear mind/Buddha Mind AFTER kensho. So the only difference in the samadhi/shikantaza/clear mind/Buddha Mind BEFORE and AFTER kensho is the awareness of training wheels. That's the best I can come up with right now...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:33 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices Anthony, My reading and yours is that samadhi precedes kenso/satori. I would like to see how JMJM justifies his statement that kensho/satori precedes samadhi. I am under the impression that Bill asserts that samadhi is no other than kensho-satori. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5648 (20101125) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5650 (20101126) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Anthony, My reading and yours is that samadhi precedes kenso/satori. I would like to see how JMJM justifies his statement that kensho/satori precedes samadhi. I am under the impression that Bill asserts that samadhi is no other than kensho-satori. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Anthony, I notice that JMJM in one of his more recent posts agrees with the samadhi, kensho, satori temporal sequence. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter...@... wrote: Anthony, My reading and yours is that samadhi precedes kenso/satori. I would like to see how JMJM justifies his statement that kensho/satori precedes samadhi. I am under the impression that Bill asserts that samadhi is no other than kensho-satori. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, Emptiness maybe, but more pertinent to our discussion, according to Bill, they should not be of interest to anyone else as they are not *their* experience. --ED PS: I do not necessarily disagree with Bill. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Ed, Correct. All these description are description of experience. No one in the world can know you what you have experienced. Therefore the description of any states is just emptiness. Therefore these type of discussion is emptiness.. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org Hi JMJM, All you can correctly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi Ed, True. In the world of words, instead of emptiness, I prefer to use the phrase of incomplete. Every perspective is a valid one, just incomplete. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/25/2010 6:50 AM, ED wrote: JMJM, Emptiness maybe, but more pertinent to our discussion, according to Bill, they should not be of interest to anyone else as they are not *their* experience. --ED PS: I do not necessarily disagree with Bill. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Ed, Correct. All these description are description of experience. No one in the world can know you what you have experienced. Therefore the description of any states is just emptiness. Therefore these type of discussion is emptiness.. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org Hi JMJM, All you can correctly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
ED, JM realized he had mistaken samadhi for sama sambuddha. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: zen_foru...@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:33 PM Anthony, My reading and yours is that samadhi precedes kenso/satori. I would like to see how JMJM justifies his statement that kensho/satori precedes samadhi. I am under the impression that Bill asserts that samadhi is no other than kensho-satori. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school. It is a state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless.. Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the energy and wisdom of the universe. Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind. It is also a description of state. Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness before we reach samadhi. Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline, through sitting to clear mind to kensho). In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. We can reach all these states. In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it, liberation. It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our mind. There is really no need to comprehend, just practice. The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. :-) Be Enlightened
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Lluis, Probably both Emperor Akbhar and the Sixth Patriarch Huinent were dislexic, and both were very intelligent as well. They have a lot in common. The Sixth Patriarch Huineng does not belong to any Tibetan lineages such as represented by Naropa, Tilopa etc. Huineng belongs to the lineage initiated by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who came to China to start the zen school. Some compare Tibetan Tantrism to color TV, while zen, black and white TV. If you can enjoy the simplicity of a black and white TV, welcome to zen. Otherwise a color TV is more colorful. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 5:34 AM Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 4:56 PM, ED wrote: JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi JMJM, All you can tcorrectly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to samadhi? Thanks, ED JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Ed, Correct. All these description are description of experience. No one in the world can know you what you have experienced. Therefore the description of any states is just emptiness. Therefore these type of discussion is emptiness.. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 7:13 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, All you can tcorrectly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to *samadhi? * Thanks, ED JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Many thanks, Anthony As far as I understand Buddhism, only different ways. Any of them would be the appropiate for me. Just trying to find it. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices Lluis, Probably both Emperor Akbhar and the Sixth Patriarch Huinent were dislexic, and both were very intelligent as well. They have a lot in common. The Sixth Patriarch Huineng does not belong to any Tibetan lineages such as represented by Naropa, Tilopa etc. Huineng belongs to the lineage initiated by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who came to China to start the zen school. Some compare Tibetan Tantrism to color TV, while zen, black and white TV. If you can enjoy the simplicity of a black and white TV, welcome to zen. Otherwise a color TV is more colorful. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 5:34 AM Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Anthony, Please accept my apology. I mixed up the two English terms, I read samma-Samadhi as Samma-sanbodhi. You are right, Kensho is after the Samadhi. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 1:24 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈 性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On *Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈 性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達 摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說： 「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On *Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 8:56 AM JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school. It is a state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless.. Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the energy and wisdom of the universe. Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind. It is also a description of state. Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness before we reach samadhi. Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline, through sitting to clear mind to kensho). In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. We can reach all these states. In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it, liberation. It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our mind. There is really no need to comprehend, just practice. The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/22/2010 6:47 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: ED, My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of which I am familiar are Japanese. These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using: Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature. Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature. Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is the base of all Zen disciplines. According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: ...a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience. The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation. From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put them in some kind of time sequence,
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及 是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On *Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school. It is a state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless.. Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the energy and wisdom of the universe. Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind. It is also a description of state. Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness before we reach samadhi. Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline, through sitting to clear mind to kensho). In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. We can reach all these states. In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it, liberation. It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our mind. There is really no need to comprehend, just practice. The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 11/22/2010 6:47 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: ED, My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of which I am familiar are Japanese. These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using: Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature. Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature. Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right, Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi ... Student: What is the relationship between samadhi and kensho? Daido Roshi: Samadhi can eventually lead to kensho. Kensho, literally, means seeing the nature of the self. Samadhi is a state of consciousness. Kensho is realization. It is said that Shakyamuni was in a state of samadhi when he realized perfect, unsurpassable enlightenment upon seeing the morning star. Mondo: Samadhi and Zazenwith John Daido Loori, Roshi When you take up the practice of zazen, you first develop an awareness of the body through your posture and the breath. That is always the starting point, regardless of what you're eventually going to practice. You use the breath to stay in touch with the body. You learn to focus on the hara, putting your attention at a point two or three finger-breadths below the navel, deep within the viscera. You count the breath, and if the mind drifts off and you lose track of the breath, when you notice that's what you're doing, you acknowledge the thought, let it go, and come back to the immediate experience of the breath. In the process of doing that of letting go of distracting thoughts and returning to the breath as the focus you build the power of concentration. Usually, this simple encounter with yourself arrives as a big shock. When I started to sit, it was a tremendous surprise to discover the incessant movement of my thoughts. Just to watch what I was doing with my mind was quite different from anything I had ever done before. When I was in the Navy, I spent endless hours in the lookout towers on the ship I served on. Sometimes I did four-hour watches, binoculars glued to my eyes, searching for mines. The ship rocked back and forth, with nothing but horizon, and very few distractions. I had to maintain a modicum of concentration. However, I wasn't watching my mind. I wasn't trying to do anything with my mind. Mostly, I was trying to stay awake. If I fell asleep there'd be hell to pay in more ways than one, especially if we hit a mine. Later in life I took up Zen practice, and even though there was very little external stimulation during zazen, now I was asked to actively engage my mind. When my mind drifted off from the breath, I was to acknowledge that fact and come back. I was appalled at the intense activity of my mind. I had no idea that I was incessantly talking to myself. I remembered how as a teenager I used to tease my grandmother who would walk around the house, talking out loud. Well, I found out that I also talked to myself. It was just that I learned to do it quietly. In zazen, you first learn how active your mind is. Then, after the shock wears off, by simply returning to the breath, you gradually strengthen your ability to put your mind where you want it, when you want it there, for as long as you want it there. This process of quieting and centering yourself continues for a while. You eventually reach a point where you slip into samadhi or single-pointedness of mind. The thoughts disappear for a short period of time and you enter into a state of mind where you're not processing anything. You're not letting go of anything. The watcher disappears. And then, in an instant, you're back again, aware of something. Some people, as they near that place of complete letting go, respond to its arrival with fear. They don't want to lose control. They may experience a physical reaction an involuntary muscular jerk or a flooding of thoughts. When you develop some facility with this capacity for singular and complete presence of mind you then shift to either of two routes in zazen. One is shikantaza, the practice of just sitting, and the other is working with a koan. Sometimes, I direct people to stay with the breath, but rather than counting or following it, they are instructed to be wholly intimate with the breath. In shikantaza, you are simply aware of the flow of thoughts, without attempting to do anything about them. This is called goalless zazen. There's no effort to do anything. You just watch the thoughts. In the process of watching thoughts, they begin to diminish. This takes a long time. Shikantaza is not dramatic. It works slowly and deeply. You become very familiar with the workings of your mind. It is a real education about you, your mind, and what you do with your mind most of your life. Finally, you reach a point where the thoughts disappear. When the thought disappears, the thinker disappears, because thought and thinker are interdependent. One doesn't exist without the other. If you are working with koans, you continue your work with concentration. When a thought comes up and carries you away from the koan, when you become aware of that, you acknowledge the thought, let it go, and return to the koan. As you do that repeatedly, little by little, less thoughts come up and distract you. And
