Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
i just called them. zero. however, they claim only 2-3 day order time. On March 30, 2009 4:56:21 PM -0400 Blake wrote: no idea how many of these there are: http://www.google.com/products?q=570-1182&hl=en&show=li 2009/3/30 Tim : On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Mike Futerko wrote: Hello > 1) Dual IO module option > 2) Multipath support > 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of > JBOD's > connected in series. ] This sounds interesting - where I can read more about connecting two hosts to same J4200 etc? Thanks Mike FWIW, it looks like someone at Sun saw the complaints in this thread and or (more likely) had enough customer complaints. It appears you can buy the tray independently now. Although, it's $500 (so they're apparently made entirely of diamond and platinum). In Sun marketing's defense, that was a great way of making the drive prices seem reasonable. http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/J420 0/components --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
| > FWIW, it looks like someone at Sun saw the complaints in this thread and or | > (more likely) had enough customer complaints. ??It appears you can buy the | > tray independently now. ??Although, it's $500 (so they're apparently made | > entirely of diamond and platinum). ??In Sun marketing's defense, that was a | > great way of making the drive prices seem reasonable. | > | > http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/J4200/components They're $500 because they come with a drive. You can't get the mounting bracket (PN 570-1182) seperate. That page just lists all the components for the J4200. There are similar pages for every other piece of hardware Sun sells (and as far as I know, always has been?). You can sometimes find individual parts via the PNs, as Blake demonstrated with the Google. Depending on the part, they usually range from $50-$120. -- bda Cyberpunk is dead. Long live cyberpunk. http://mirrorshades.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
no idea how many of these there are: http://www.google.com/products?q=570-1182&hl=en&show=li 2009/3/30 Tim : > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Mike Futerko wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> > 1) Dual IO module option >> > 2) Multipath support >> > 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of >> > JBOD's >> > connected in series. ] >> >> This sounds interesting - where I can read more about connecting two >> hosts to same J4200 etc? >> >> >> Thanks >> Mike > > FWIW, it looks like someone at Sun saw the complaints in this thread and or > (more likely) had enough customer complaints. It appears you can buy the > tray independently now. Although, it's $500 (so they're apparently made > entirely of diamond and platinum). In Sun marketing's defense, that was a > great way of making the drive prices seem reasonable. > > http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/J4200/components > > --Tim > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Mike Futerko wrote: > Hello > > > 1) Dual IO module option > > 2) Multipath support > > 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of JBOD's > > connected in series. ] > > This sounds interesting - where I can read more about connecting two > hosts to same J4200 etc? > > > Thanks > Mike > FWIW, it looks like someone at Sun saw the complaints in this thread and or (more likely) had enough customer complaints. It appears you can buy the tray independently now. Although, it's $500 (so they're apparently made entirely of diamond and platinum). In Sun marketing's defense, that was a great way of making the drive prices seem reasonable. http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/J4200/components --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Hello > 1) Dual IO module option > 2) Multipath support > 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of JBOD's > connected in series. ] This sounds interesting - where I can read more about connecting two hosts to same J4200 etc? Thanks Mike ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
> "b" == Blake writes: b> ZFS can preserve data all day long, but that doesn't help much b> if the controller misbehaves the most common kind of controller, or rather driver, misbehavior is to time out commands to failed drives while ZFS waits inappropriately long, or to freeze access to drives other than the drive that failed, or to fail to support hot-swap properly. These problems affect availability (no interruptions in data access), not reliability (once put there, stuff stays there, but maybe only readable after manual intervention). If the box is doing a ~throwaway job like tape emulation for backup, good reliability with crap availability may be more acceptable than the same situation on a production box. b> it's happened to me with whitebox hardware). and also with X4500, taking 1+ years to not completely fix, and closed-source driver so you cannot try to fix it yourself. though there seem to be fewer complaints with the new LSI-based controllers. Paying a premium for good integration makes more sense if the integration was actually good in the past. I'd also pay a premium for something like VA Linux which bundled hardware with stable revisions of good-quality open-source drivers, but I guess that didn't work out well for VA. It makes some sense but less sense to pay a premium for a situation in which the integration could theoretically be good even though it hasn't been in the past, because there may be FUD problems that were solved (both presently and in the past) without your hearing about them so you are actually getting something for the premium you've paid, but $vendor cannot tell you exactly what you are getting because knowing what problems were fixed would make it easier for you to fix them yourself without paying. That's a pretty damn cynical outlook on the situation, but it seems to be a realistic/common one. That said why fuss about drive cost? If the drive-to-chassis lock-in is effective, then just accept the tying as done and compare cost/TB with Xtore or Dell FC or whatever. The real interop/tying thing I see needing untangling in ZFS is for FC and iSCSI to work well---if this were done then ZFS could be combined with a variety of competing physical storage, and it's reasonable to expect it be well-integrated with non-Sun FC/iSCSI---I think the claim ``well there is so you have to buy Sun FC targets'' will not fly so well in that case because you are already paying an integration premium to both vendors and might reasonably expect some combinations of them to claim and deliver good interoperability. pgp2XIRwL36hQ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
This is true. Unfortunately, in my experience, controller quality is still very important. ZFS can preserve data all day long, but that doesn't help much if the controller misbehaves (you may have good data that can't be retrieved or manipulated properly - it's happened to me with whitebox hardware). If anyone buys whitebox hardware for ZFS in production, make sure the vendor will give you support/warranty for OpenSolaris/ZFS. On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:33 PM, jpdrawneek wrote: > Mertol Ozyoney wrote: > > But the whole point of zfs is that you can use inexpensive drives and with > enough in RAID to make it reliable. >> >> Best regards >> Mertol >> >> Mertol Ozyoney Storage Practice - Sales Manager >> >> Sun Microsystems, TR >> Istanbul TR >> Phone +902123352200 >> Mobile +905339310752 >> Fax +90212335 >> Email mertol.ozyo...@sun.com >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org >> [mailto:zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Richard Elling >> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:24 PM >> To: John-Paul Drawneek >> Cc: zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org >> Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers >> >> John-Paul Drawneek wrote: >> >>> >>> the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. >>> >>> Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons >>> >> >> The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk >> drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data >> tend to value service contracts for disk drives. >> -- richard >> >> ___ >> zfs-discuss mailing list >> zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss >> >> > > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Mertol Ozyoney wrote: Hi All ; As you can read below I carry a Sun bath so my opinions could be a little bit biased :) There are couple of reasons why you may consider a J series JBOD against some other whitebox unit. 1) Dual IO module option You can probably buy 2 white box for 1 J series with disk 2) Multipath support 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of JBOD's connected in series. ] Any docs on this feature? 4) Better testing with ZFS One would really hope so, but thats never stopped sun before. 5) Very nice SPC2 results Is is support by sun/solaris cluster yet? Not seen that in any docs yet. The only problem with the J series is that the disks are expensive. Not sure what the magic firmware does, other than make them all look the same, or how it improves the mechanics. But the whole point of zfs is that you can use inexpensive drives and with enough in RAID to make it reliable. Best regards Mertol Mertol Ozyoney Storage Practice - Sales Manager Sun Microsystems, TR Istanbul TR Phone +902123352200 Mobile +905339310752 Fax +90212335 Email mertol.ozyo...@sun.com -Original Message- From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Richard Elling Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:24 PM To: John-Paul Drawneek Cc: zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers John-Paul Drawneek wrote: the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data tend to value service contracts for disk drives. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Hi All ; As you can read below I carry a Sun bath so my opinions could be a little bit biased :) There are couple of reasons why you may consider a J series JBOD against some other whitebox unit. 1) Dual IO module option 2) Multipath support 3) Zone support [multi host connecting to same JBOD or same set of JBOD's connected in series. ] 4) Better testing with ZFS 5) Very nice SPC2 results Best regards Mertol Mertol Ozyoney Storage Practice - Sales Manager Sun Microsystems, TR Istanbul TR Phone +902123352200 Mobile +905339310752 Fax +90212335 Email mertol.ozyo...@sun.com -Original Message- From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Richard Elling Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:24 PM To: John-Paul Drawneek Cc: zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers John-Paul Drawneek wrote: > the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. > > Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data tend to value service contracts for disk drives. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On February 1, 2009 8:30:21 AM -0800 Frank Cusack wrote: nevermind, i will just get a Promise array. Don't. I don't normally like to badmouth vendors, but my experience with Promise was one of the worst in my career, for reasons that should be relevant other ZFS-oriented customers. recommendations for an alternative? I've been having good luck so far (4 days stress test) with an xtore jbod. -frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
+-- | On 2009-02-02 09:46:49, casper@sun.com wrote: | | And think of all the money it costs to stock and distribute that | separate part. (And our infrastructure is still expensive; too expensive | for a $5 part) Facts on the ground: 541-2123 (X4150, X4450, J7410, T51x0) goes for about $70. 541-0239 (X4100, X4200) goes for about $100. I'm sure it's $5 to somebody, but it isn't your customers. Anyway. This is all about fifteen miles off-topic. -- bda Cyberpunk is dead. Long live cyberpunk. http://mirrorshades.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
>The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. >Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate >item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in >them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are >not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. And think of all the money it costs to stock and distribute that separate part. (And our infrastructure is still expensive; too expensive for a $5 part) Casper ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
+-- | On 2009-02-01 20:55:46, Richard Elling wrote: | | The astute observer will note that the bracket for the X41xx family | works elsewhere. For example, | http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/SunFireX4150/components#Disks | XRA-SS2CF-73G10K contains 541-2123 | http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/7410/components#Disks | XTA7410-LOGZ18GB contains 570-1182 | XTA7410-READZ100G contains 541-2123 I had noted that, when looking for the sleds alone, though not those specific cases. Useful! | But that is just the mechanical parts. Unfortunately, there is also | firmware to be considered, though that tends to solve itself over time. Hopefully! | One would think that Sun could have leveraged the common chassis, | but they do not seem capable of doing so. Don't look for logic here, | there is none. mm. -- bda Cyberpunk is dead. Long live cyberpunk. http://mirrorshades.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Bryan Allen wrote: > +-- > | On 2009-02-01 16:29:59, Richard Elling wrote: > | > | The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. > | Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate > | item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in > | them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are > | not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. > > A specific example of why this policy drives me crazy: > > X4150. 8 disk bays. SAS HBA, SATA onboard. > > In its initial incarnation, the SAS HBA was optional (this was > "fixed" soon after its release, but I got bitten by it, ordering > it before support even knew it was released). I had also read > that Sun would be selling 2.5" SATA disks for the system by the > end of the year (2008). > > Regardless, mixing SAS and SATA in this system would would be > incredibly useful for any number of applications. > > Sun does not sell 2.5" SATA disks for the X4150, and I cannot > purchase sleds. > > Further: X4150s are presumably commonly deployed for database > work (that's what both of mine do, along with a lot else). > > According to zilstat (thank you, Richard!), r/w SSDs would prove > beneficial. > > Sun does not sell SSDs for the X4150, and I cannot purchase > sleds. > > Obviously, I could buy 73GB SAS disks and simply repurpose their > sleds. I hope everyone (who is a consumer) can agree that sucks. > > > > The company I work for is a small ESP; we've been around forever > (1995), and until I moved us to Solaris two years ago, we were a > pure Linux shop. > > We like Sun software. We like Sun hardware. We had a (small) part > to play in getting DTrace into Perl 5.10. We're proponents of the > company and its technology. > > As with everyone else who has asked for this sort of thing, I > just wish Sun would offer me a bit more flexibility so I can more > effectively do my job using their gear. > +1 The astute observer will note that the bracket for the X41xx family works elsewhere. For example, http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/SunFireX4150/components#Disks XRA-SS2CF-73G10K contains 541-2123 http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/7410/components#Disks XTA7410-LOGZ18GB contains 570-1182 XTA7410-READZ100G contains 541-2123 But that is just the mechanical parts. Unfortunately, there is also firmware to be considered, though that tends to solve itself over time. One would think that Sun could have leveraged the common chassis, but they do not seem capable of doing so. Don't look for logic here, there is none. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > I am worried that Sun is primarily interested in new business and > tends to not offer replacement/new drives for as long as the actual > service-life of the array. What is the poor customer to do when Sun > is no longer willing to offer a service contract and Sun is no longer > willing to sell drives (or even the carriers) for the array? You can still procure replacement drives for real vintage kit, like the A1000/D1000 arrays. I doubt your argument is valid. As a side point, by the time these arrays are dead & buried, the sleds for them will no doubt be as common as spuds (and don't we all have at least 30 of those lying around?) > Sometimes it is only a matter of weeks before Sun stops offering > supportive components. For example, my Ultra 40 was only discontinued > a month or so ago but already Sun somehow no longer lists memory for > it (huh?). If your trusty Sun partner couldn't supply you with memory for an Ultra-40, I'd take that as a sign to find a new partner. EOSL products vanish from websites but parts can still be ordered for them. -- Andre van Eyssen. mail: an...@purplecow.org jabber: an...@interact.purplecow.org purplecow.org: UNIX for the masses http://www2.purplecow.org purplecow.org: PCOWpix http://pix.purplecow.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Richard Elling wrote: > The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. > Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate > item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in > them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are > not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. I am worried that Sun is primarily interested in new business and tends to not offer replacement/new drives for as long as the actual service-life of the array. What is the poor customer to do when Sun is no longer willing to offer a service contract and Sun is no longer willing to sell drives (or even the carriers) for the array? Sometimes it is only a matter of weeks before Sun stops offering supportive components. For example, my Ultra 40 was only discontinued a month or so ago but already Sun somehow no longer lists memory for it (huh?). Of course this discussion has nothing to do with ZFS. Bob == Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
+-- | On 2009-02-01 16:29:59, Richard Elling wrote: | | The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. | Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate | item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in | them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are | not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. A specific example of why this policy drives me crazy: X4150. 8 disk bays. SAS HBA, SATA onboard. In its initial incarnation, the SAS HBA was optional (this was "fixed" soon after its release, but I got bitten by it, ordering it before support even knew it was released). I had also read that Sun would be selling 2.5" SATA disks for the system by the end of the year (2008). Regardless, mixing SAS and SATA in this system would would be incredibly useful for any number of applications. Sun does not sell 2.5" SATA disks for the X4150, and I cannot purchase sleds. Further: X4150s are presumably commonly deployed for database work (that's what both of mine do, along with a lot else). According to zilstat (thank you, Richard!), r/w SSDs would prove beneficial. Sun does not sell SSDs for the X4150, and I cannot purchase sleds. Obviously, I could buy 73GB SAS disks and simply repurpose their sleds. I hope everyone (who is a consumer) can agree that sucks. The company I work for is a small ESP; we've been around forever (1995), and until I moved us to Solaris two years ago, we were a pure Linux shop. We like Sun software. We like Sun hardware. We had a (small) part to play in getting DTrace into Perl 5.10. We're proponents of the company and its technology. As with everyone else who has asked for this sort of thing, I just wish Sun would offer me a bit more flexibility so I can more effectively do my job using their gear. (I went the eBay route for my X4100 sleds; the way the numbers came out in the end, it didn't really make a lot of sense to do it again, so I haven't. But I can actually buy the disks I wanted for my X4100s from Sun.) Like all small fish, we have to move fast and be creative with our purchasing and infrastructure. Sun's focus on large deployments and Corporate can often leave us little guys in the cold. Given Sun's business focus and climate (as Richard says, it's "basic business"), I've mostly learned to suck it up, but that doesn't make things like this taste any less bitter. -- bda Cyberpunk is dead. Long live cyberpunk. http://mirrorshades.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Richard Elling wrote: > The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. > Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate > item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in > them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are > not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. > -- richard This thread has been running for a little too long, considering the issues are pretty simple. Sun sells a JBOD storage product, along with disks and accessories. The disks they provide are mounted in the correct carriers for the array. The pricing of the disks and accessories are part of the price calculation for the entire system - you could provide the array empty, with a full set of empty carriers but the price will go up. No brand name storage vendor supports or encourages installation of third party disks. It's not the way the business works. If the customer wants the reassurance, quality, (etc, etc) associated with buying brand name storage, they purchase the disks from the same vendor. If price is more critical than these factors, there's a wide range of "white box" solutions on the market. Try approaching IBM, HP, EMC, HDS, NetApp or similar and ask to buy an empty JBOD and spare trays - it's not happening. Yes, this is unfortunate for those who would like to purchase a Sun JBOD for home or for a microbusiness. However, these users are probably aware that if they want to buy their own spindles and run an unsupported configuration, their local metal shop will be happy to bang out some frames. Not to mention the fact that one could always run up a set of sleds in the shed without too much strife - in fact, in the past when "spuds" were less commonly available, I've seen a home user make sleds out of wood that did the job. Now, I'm looking forward to seeing the first Sun JBOD loaded up with CNC-milled mahogany sleds. It'll look great. -- Andre van Eyssen. mail: an...@purplecow.org jabber: an...@interact.purplecow.org purplecow.org: UNIX for the masses http://www2.purplecow.org purplecow.org: PCOWpix http://pix.purplecow.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, February 1, 2009 14:24, Richard Elling wrote: > John-Paul Drawneek wrote: >> the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. >> >> Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons >> > > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk > drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data > tend to value service contracts for disk drives. The people who in fact want service contracts covering their drives will of course buy from Sun; that works well for them, and well for Sun. Win win! Thing is, the people who *don't* want service contracts covering their drives (which, in my experience, is everybody in the SATA era; it's a silly waste of money) will be pissed off, and will have to avoid buying that Sun product. This is a lose for Sun, and possibly a lose for them. Will anybody actually be forced to buy their drives from Sun? If so, is that something for Sun to be proud of? It looks to me as if this kind of policy doesn't bring business to Sun, it drives it away. At least, it doesn't bring *happy* business to Sun; it might bring people feeling coerced and looking for an excuse to escape. Google, who live and die by their data, prefer to use cheap commodity hardware. Since they're *already* set up with redundancy, they can afford a higher failure rate. This sort of thinking is true of a lot of high-end places these days, their reliability requirements are so high that one good server (or disk drive) can't possibly meet them anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Tim wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Richard Elling > mailto:richard.ell...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > John-Paul Drawneek wrote: > > the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. > > > > Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious > reasons > > > > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk > drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data > tend to value service contracts for disk drives. > -- richard > > > I don't think anyone is asking Sun to service disks that aren't > theirs, but to claim that's a reason for not selling drive trays is > crap. You already claimed in the other thread that Sun has contracts > for custom disks so they don't have to worry about short > stroking/right-sizing so it should be pretty frigging obvious to > support if the disks in the JBOD are Sun or "some random crap > purchased from fry's". The drives that Sun sells will come with the correct bracket. Ergo, there is no reason to sell the bracket as a separate item unless the customer wishes to place non-Sun disks in them. That represents a service liability for Sun, so they are not inclined to do so. It is really basic business. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On February 1, 2009 12:02:11 PM -0800 Frédéric VANNIERE wrote: > J4200 is cheap compared to custom made solutions (Supermicro + 3Ware). i can't see how that math works. by the time i fully populate a J4200 (12TB), Sun charges in the $10k neighborhood. i can do this using Promise or Xtore or whatever for $3k. > Last year I've bought an Infortrend RAID array with custom disks but today > I would choose a J4400 + 24 TB again, the Sun enclosure is about the same price as any other enclosure, but the Sun drives make 24TB cost ... well the Sun store is down right now, but I'll estimate $30k or just to be generous let's use their advertised figure of $1/GB, so $24k. An Xtore with 24TB runs $11k. -frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On February 1, 2009 12:24:08 PM -0800 Richard Elling wrote > John-Paul Drawneek wrote: >> the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. >> >> Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons >> > > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk > drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data > tend to value service contracts for disk drives. i don't agree. disk drives, well non-Sun branded ones, are cheap enough to just keep on hand. even for my home systems, i always buy an extra hard drive of the same size/type the system came with. i expect drives to fail, and hence i used SVM or now for the past few years, zfs, for availability. that covers a failure "immediately" until such time, usu. 1 day max, that the physical drive can be swapped. a service contract for a hard drive seems a complete waste of dollars, esp. when you consider the 5x markup on the drive. once i've swapped in my cold spare, if i can't wait for a warranty replacement i simply buy another drive. for parts that might be hard to get, or very expensive, a service contract makes great sense. but for hard drives? -frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Tim wrote: > I don't think anyone is asking Sun to service disks that aren't > theirs, but to claim that's a reason for not selling drive trays is > crap. You already claimed in the other thread that Sun has > contracts for custom disks so they don't have to worry about short > stroking/right-sizing so it should be pretty frigging obvious to > support if the disks in the JBOD are Sun or "some random crap > purchased from fry's". I agree that this is cause for concern. For example in the past six months Sun has silently dropped almost all of its "desktop" product line. This includes the Sun Ultra-40 that I bought at great expense. There is no indication that there will be any remaining products in the desktop line and maybe there will be no Sun desktop offering at all once the remaining low-end system is discontinued. Quite a pity since Sun "desktops" were top quality and price competitive for the features offered. Today I ordered the drive extension bay to support four more drives in this system simply because I don't trust that Sun will provide adequate support for the product it sold to me. So I purchased expansion hardware that I might not even use out of pure unadulterated fear. I have seen how quickly Sun's support for discontinued products vaporizes. I can not afford $6K for the six additional drives at the moment so I can only hope that Sun (or some other vendor) will still be willing to sell SAS drives with appropriate brackets to fit in this system when I am ready to buy them. Bob == Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:45:28 -0600 Tim wrote: > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Richard Elling > wrote: > > > John-Paul Drawneek wrote: > > > the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. > > > > > > Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious > > > reasons > > > > > > > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk > > drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data > > tend to value service contracts for disk drives. > > -- richard > > > > > I don't think anyone is asking Sun to service disks that aren't > theirs, but to claim that's a reason for not selling drive trays is > crap. No, it's not. To claim that it was the *sole* reason might be, but that's not what Richard said. James -- Senior Kernel Software Engineer, Solaris Sun Microsystems http://blogs.sun.com/jmcp http://www.jmcp.homeunix.com/blog ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Richard Elling wrote: > John-Paul Drawneek wrote: > > the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. > > > > Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons > > > > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk > drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data > tend to value service contracts for disk drives. > -- richard > > I don't think anyone is asking Sun to service disks that aren't theirs, but to claim that's a reason for not selling drive trays is crap. You already claimed in the other thread that Sun has contracts for custom disks so they don't have to worry about short stroking/right-sizing so it should be pretty frigging obvious to support if the disks in the JBOD are Sun or "some random crap purchased from fry's". --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
John-Paul Drawneek wrote: > the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. > > Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons > The obvious reason is that Sun cannot service random disk drives you buy from Fry's (or elsewhere). People who value data tend to value service contracts for disk drives. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
J4200 is cheap compared to custom made solutions (Supermicro + 3Ware). Ask a Sun reseller for a quote. There is also the Sun Startup Essentials program with great prices on storage systems. Last year I've bought an Infortrend RAID array with custom disks but today I would choose a J4400 + 24 TB. -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:30, Frank Cusack wrote: > recommendations for an alternative? At work we just ordered a Supermicro CSE-846E1-R900B [1]: 24 hot-swap bays, redundant 900W power supplies, LSI SAS expander. This doesn't quite make a JBOD by itself (it's designed to be used as a case for a whole system); you need to add a PCI-slot-based external-to-internal SAS cable [2] and a so-called JBOD control board which makes the case power up without a motherboard in it. This is the cheapest SAS expander-based chassis I've found; even after adding the two additional parts mentioned above, cost from provantage.com shipped is around $1250 (depending on your location, of course). You'll need to add a SAS controller of your choice and a cable with an SFF-8088 connection on one end (for the JBOD end) and whatever the SAS controller has on the other end. I believe you can daisy-chain this setup by connecting a cable appropriately. These parts are available from other suppliers; provantage is linked simply because they have all of them at one store and the price on the case is the best I've found. I haven't received all the parts to try this out yet, but I'm confident that this will work as specified. YMMV. Will [1]: http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-cse-846e1-r900b~7SUPM1YV.htm [2]: http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-cbl-0168l~7SUPA01T.htm [3]: http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-cse-ptjbod-cb1~7SUP9023.htm ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Frank Cusack wrote: > >> nevermind, i will just get a Promise array. > > > > Don't. I don't normally like to badmouth vendors, but my experience > > with Promise was one of the worst in my career, for reasons that should > > be relevant other ZFS-oriented customers. > > recommendations for an alternative? I would imagine something like this: http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_enclosures/scsase16.asp or this: http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_enclosures/scsas16rm.asp would get the job don. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
>> nevermind, i will just get a Promise array. > > Don't. I don't normally like to badmouth vendors, but my experience > with Promise was one of the worst in my career, for reasons that should > be relevant other ZFS-oriented customers. recommendations for an alternative? ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
> nevermind, i will just get a Promise array. Don't. I don't normally like to badmouth vendors, but my experience with Promise was one of the worst in my career, for reasons that should be relevant other ZFS-oriented customers. We ordered a Promise array because their tech sheet said Solaris was supported. We received it and set it up, and from the start got scsi errors from the array when configuring devices. (This is before even touching ZFS; at this stage we just wanted to run fdisk.) It took a while to find someone at Promise, and when they did they wouldn't open a case ticket because, they said, Solaris was unsupported. When I went back to their web site -- a horrible site, by the way -- the tech sheet had been replaced with one that did NOT list Solaris among the supported OSes, although the author and date of the PDF file were the same. I wrote to my contact at Promise, but they held to their guns on the non-support even after I sent them copies of both PDFs. I cajoled my Sun account manager into connecting us with someone who might be able to figure it out, but no one could. It took several months to get Promise to agree to refund our unit, and only because our retailer (CDW) took the reins and held on tight. Promise stopped returning my e-mail long before that. Others may have different fortune with them; we were using the dual-controller FC Vtrak, whatever the model number is, and maybe other interfaces work better. But after the support issue, I wouldn't dare touch them again for use on Solaris. -- -D.d...@uchicago.eduNSITUniversity of Chicago ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
the J series is far to new to be hitting ebay yet. Any alot of people will not be buying the J series for obvious reasons -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Frank Cusack wrote: > apparently if you don't order a J4200 with drives, you just get filler > sleds that won't accept a hard drive. (had to look at a parts breakdown > on sunsolve to figure this out -- the docs should simply make this clear.) > > it looks like the sled that will accept a drive is part #570-1182. > anyone know how i could order 12 of these? > Try e-bay. They will not be available directly from Sun, for obvious supportability reasons. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
On January 30, 2009 1:31:46 PM -0800 Frank Cusack wrote: > apparently if you don't order a J4200 with drives, you just get filler > sleds that won't accept a hard drive. (had to look at a parts breakdown > on sunsolve to figure this out -- the docs should simply make this clear.) > > it looks like the sled that will accept a drive is part #570-1182. > anyone know how i could order 12 of these? nevermind, i will just get a Promise array. it's great that zfs allows us to take advantage of cheap disk. sad that Sun is still not competitive at the low end of the market. it's not clear to me who would buy a low end JBOD (4200/4400) yet want to pay 5x market price for disks. (in my case, reuse my current disks.) -frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
Frank, > apparently if you don't order a J4200 with drives, you just get filler > sleds that won't accept a hard drive. (had to look at a parts breakdown > on sunsolve to figure this out -- the docs should simply make this clear.) > > it looks like the sled that will accept a drive is part #570-1182. > anyone know how i could order 12 of these? Call your local Sun Account Manager. No-one on zfs-discuss will have the remotest clue (or be even the slightest bit interested - it's so OT). Apols and regards... Sean. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] j4200 drive carriers
apparently if you don't order a J4200 with drives, you just get filler sleds that won't accept a hard drive. (had to look at a parts breakdown on sunsolve to figure this out -- the docs should simply make this clear.) it looks like the sled that will accept a drive is part #570-1182. anyone know how i could order 12 of these? ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
