[Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
Dear all,

I was thinking a bit about why I don't really use tags myself. So I
came up with the idea that I would want to use tags more like
keywords. So instead of placing tags around a piece of text, I would
want to highlight certain words as key words that need to be indexed.
And I can do that with tags, the tag side pane behaves more or less as
a keyword index in this respect. However what prohibits me from using
this is the @ prefix for tags.

So now my question: would it break the use case for tags if I drop the
@ in the rendering ?  So we would still use the @ in the wiki
source, we would still use it for typing tags, but formatted tags are
highlighted by color instead of the @ prefix. Also in HTML export we
would drop the @. The result being that tags being in a sentence
read more naturally.

Any issues with this proposal I overlooked ?

Thanks,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Marco Cevoli
Hi Jaap,

This is not an easy question.

On one side we have tags, defined as non hierarchical categories.
You can associate any page with 1 or more tags.
On the other side we have keywords (to be indexed). Do we want to keep
these 2 categorization items separated?

I use tags as contexts, so I would like to keep the tag cloud
quite short, easy to navigate. And I like to have tags at the
beginning or at the end of each article, because I can see at a glance
what the article is about, or where it belongs.

If you can think about a way of easily inserting tags/keywords as it
is now, I see no drawback in merging these two concepts. In fact, in
Joomla (the CMS), sometimes you use the keyword field to insert
fake tags, so apparently these two concepts are very similar and
interchangeable.

It all depends on how you visualize the global index (tag cloud vs
alphabetical index).

Let's hear what others think about it.

Regards

Marco Cevoli
Traduttore tecnico. Grafico. Congiungitore di punti.
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http://www.marcocevoli.com
i...@marcocevoli.com
t 34 675 800 826
~~~
My t-shirt shop: http://vulnavia.spreadshirt.net
My latest projects: http://www.qabiria.com,
http://www.allerglobal.com, http://traducciones-hosteleria.com


On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Jaap Karssenberg
jaap.karssenb...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dear all,

 I was thinking a bit about why I don't really use tags myself. So I
 came up with the idea that I would want to use tags more like
 keywords. So instead of placing tags around a piece of text, I would
 want to highlight certain words as key words that need to be indexed.
 And I can do that with tags, the tag side pane behaves more or less as
 a keyword index in this respect. However what prohibits me from using
 this is the @ prefix for tags.

 So now my question: would it break the use case for tags if I drop the
 @ in the rendering ?  So we would still use the @ in the wiki
 source, we would still use it for typing tags, but formatted tags are
 highlighted by color instead of the @ prefix. Also in HTML export we
 would drop the @. The result being that tags being in a sentence
 read more naturally.

 Any issues with this proposal I overlooked ?

 Thanks,

 Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Marco Cevoli marco.cev...@gmail.com wrote:
 It all depends on how you visualize the global index (tag cloud vs
 alphabetical index).

I don't think I want to change anything there. Should work exactly as
it works now.

The tag index version that is sorted by tag already looks more or
less like an keyword index. And the tag cloud is a useful way to
search subsets of pages.

I think keywords are similar to tags in the sense that they provide a
context as well for a page. Or alternatively they can be though of as
a very short summary of the page topic. But I often see people use
tags in the same way, basically making a single line description where
each word is a tag like @email (about) @zim @tags. Of course you are
still free to put these keywords on a separate line before or after
the main text.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Joerg Desch
Hi Jaap.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:51:40 +0200
Jaap Karssenberg jaap.karssenb...@gmail.com wrote:

 I was thinking a bit about why I don't really use tags myself. So I
 came up with the idea that I would want to use tags more like
 keywords.

I'm using Zim in 4 different main use cases but within one notebook. For
all of them I use tags. None of them use tags as keyword in the flowing
text.

(1) ZIM as diary: I add all results of conferences, meetings or important
phone calls to the calendar. Each project and each customer has it's tag.
So I can select all meetings with customer foo in 2010 by selecting
@meeting + @foo + @2010

(2) ZIM as scratch pad: there are too much informations out there. I
write my monthly pad with all the things I may be want to remember.
Important entries have a tag like @android or @read

(3) ZIM as project overview. Each project get its own hierarchy with a
project profile as root page below Projects.

(4) ZIM as knowledge storage. Every time I learn something or after every
internet search/inquiry I write done a summary.


 However what prohibits me from using this is the @ prefix for tags.

IMO nothing. I don't need it, but it wouldn't break my use cases.


One small remark about the tags view. Have you ever tried to view tagged
calendar entries? You will see a list of 05's and 07's! Not really
useful. It would be great if the list prints the whole path. If the
string is to long, the path should be shortened before the name of the
page. So instead of 22 we would see Calendar:2012:06:22 or shortened
SomethingLong:2012:.:05


Regards
-- 
Email: Joerg Desch jd DOT vvd AT web DOT de

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Jaap Karssenberg
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:33 PM, NorfCran norfc...@gmail.com wrote:
 that sounds like a great proposal. Personally I may have a case, which uses
 tags for spatial identification for example @location:lon,lat. The symbol
 of : is attached directly after the @location. If this will be taken in
 consideration during rendering, it would be great. Furthermore it rises my
 interest due to possibility of hiding the geographical coordinates from text
 and keeping only keyword or even better only a simple symbol of a globe.

That sounds more like an object than a tag. Already for some time
I'm working in a separate branch which will feature inline objects.
This would be the feature you need to create an object to represent
locations. Could indeed be rendered as a small icon.

Alternative you could think of this as a link. I think google maps
accepts lattitude and longitude numbers for search. So you could
configure an interwiki URL for google maps and insert places like
map?lon,lat and have it turn into a link that goes to google maps.

Regards,

Jaap

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Re: [Zim-wiki] Request for comments: usage of tags

2012-06-22 Thread Svenn Are Bjerkem
On 22 June 2012 13:45, Rudi Bruchez r...@babaluga.com wrote:
 Sounds strange in a wysiwyg environment not to show smth the user typed.
 What happens then if believe I've forgotten the @ an type it again ? would
 it store @@tag ?

Well, there's lots of magic happening when typing markup in zim. The
magic usually happens when the space is pressed, that way, you would
see the '@' in front of the tag/keyword while typing until space is
pressed to leave room for the next word. If you didn't want zim to
perform the magic, then press ctrl-z (undo) and the text is there in
unformatted format. At least that's what I do when I type file system
paths which I don't want zim to magicalize.

There is one particular magic that comes to my mind when it comes to
expected behaviour: The underline. When an underline is magicalized,
the text gets a yellow background instead of the expected underline.
Guess this has to do with the editor widget not showing underline or
something like that. The tags currently get an orange face colour when
magicalized. If the visible @ goes avay, at least the colour change
must stay. (I guess it is possible to configure the face colour to be
the same as the text colour for those who don't like colour).


 Personally I don't mind seeing the @ in front of my tags, at least in zim.
 Dropping it in the HTML export could make sense, though.

A tag should be made to stand out in some way, otherwise a casual
reader would think it is a typo, I think


 Le 22/06/12 11:51, Jaap Karssenberg a écrit :

 So now my question: would it break the use case for tags if I drop the
 @ in the rendering ?  So we would still use the @ in the wiki
 source, we would still use it for typing tags, but formatted tags are
 highlighted by color instead of the @ prefix. Also in HTML export we
 would drop the @. The result being that tags being in a sentence
 read more naturally.

That is only useful behaviour if the feature is to be used to generate
an index like in a book. Because of the '@' in a tag, I never use them
in a line of text, only at the beginning in the first line, alone, or
at the end of a single line statement.

@a_tag
This is a piece of text which is supposed to be a block of text describing
something which fits to something which I would later like to find by
clicking on
a_tag in the tag cloud. If I, at a later time find this passage of
text through the
search function and discover that it also need another tag, then I can
add that to the
tag line.

The literal @ stands out as an icon and catches attention, but so
would a different colour.

My other use case for tags is in diaries where I describe what I do to
approach a problem:

In a calendar/date page:
2012-06-22
Checking if make install works
* The Makefile use spaces instead of tabs at the beginning
Replace spaces with tabs and try again
* Package foobar installs nicely
Need to fix spaces to tabs before deployment @todo

John called and asked about the progress on the deployment. @followup

I know I can use the TODO functionality, but I am kind of reverse
polish notation when writing this kind of memo notes. First write,
then classify.

It is always difficult to rewrite already existing features. I have
come to learn and love the tags the way they are right now. Why not
find a different markup for keywords, say %keyword, ^keyword or
$keyword. Maybe the last one is a bad suggestion for all those who
take a note of prices in USD in their zim wikies.


I think it is a good idea to use the title of a calendar page in the index pane.
-- 
Svenn

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