[ZION] Danites
Who can educate me on the Danites in the late 1830's and later? Garth Hamblin Juneau // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Danites
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who can educate me on the Danites in the late 1830's and later? Have you checked the Encyclopedia of Mormonism? I don't know much about them except what I read in Harold Shindler's ORRIN PORTER ROCKWELL: SON OF THUNDER over 30 years ago. Apparently the Danites were a vigilante group organized to defend the saints during the persecutions in early Church history. There was a fellow named Dan Hickman who was one of the organizers and early leaders of the group. Because it was a secret society it never enjoyed Church sanction, and in fact it became a great liability for the Church because our enemies began making the false claim that it had been organized under priesthood authority and attributed every crime imaginable to the group. Most of this I am sure you already know. Unfortunately, I am not enough of a student of Church history to tell you more. I'm sure there must be others on the list that can add a lot more. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Blood Atonement
Searching Google to learn more about the Danites, I ran across this at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/missouri.htm. In this article the following is stated about so-called blood atonement. --- The Danites originated the practice of blood atonement in the Mormon Church. (This doctrine was promoted by Church officials as late as 1961, but is now officially regarded as unorthodox.) The basic idea here is that there are certain sins for which the blood of Christ cannot cover the sinner; the sinner must have his own blood mingle with the soil to atone for that sin. These sins included: dissent, murder, adultery, theft, miscegenation, taking the Lord's name in vain, breaking covenants, leaving the Church, lying, counterfeiting, and condemning Joseph Smith, his Church, or any of its leaders. Spilling blood specifically meant: his throat cut from ear to ear, his tongue torn out by its roots, his breast cut open and his heart and vitals torn from his body and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field and his body cut asunder in the midst and all his bowels gush out. In practice, slitting a throat usually proved sufficient. Concerning this doctrine, Brigham Young later said: I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain in order to atone for their sins. ... I have known a great many men who have left this church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. ... This is loving our neighbours as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. --- What took place in 1961 officially making this doctrine unorthodox? Aren't there scriptures that buttress the idea that certain sins are of so heinous a nature that to obtain maximum forgiveness, the sinner must be put to death by the shedding of blood? Didn't Utah once offer a condemned murderer the choice of death by hanging or death by firing squad, the thought being that death by hanging sheds blood while hanging does not? What has changed in doctrine that makes this choice no longer necessary or desireable? My understanding is that Utah now executes murderers by lethal injection just like many other states. Why the change? Does a lethal injection, which does not shed blood, kill a person faster and more mercifully than a bullet through the heart? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Danites
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who can educate me on the Danites in the late 1830's and later? = Grampa Bill asks: You want the official history or the whispers? If the whispers, you want our whispers or the antis? I often ask, Where are the Danites when ya' really need them? Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Doing Lunch
I am in the SLC-Provo-Orem area for the next several days. If anyone would like to get together for lunch or something similar, give me a call at 907-465-2505. If I'm not there, leave a message and I'll call you back. I'm probably leaving the area on Monday, but that is not certain. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Doing Lunch
At 11:46 AM 6/18/2003, you wrote: I am in the SLC-Provo-Orem area for the next several days. If anyone would like to get together for lunch or something similar, give me a call at 907-465-2505. If I'm not there, leave a message and I'll call you back. I'm probably leaving the area on Monday, but that is not certain. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't you mean 801-465-2505? ;-) -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the president shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. He is our executive; he is on our payroll; he is supposed to put our best interests in front of those of other nations. Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to 'uplift' their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or even to defend them against their enemies. (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 614; see also pp. 682 704.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Danites
At 11:20 AM 6/18/2003, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who can educate me on the Danites in the late 1830's and later? Have you checked the Encyclopedia of Mormonism? I don't know much about them except what I read in Harold Shindler's ORRIN PORTER ROCKWELL: SON OF THUNDER over 30 years ago. An excellent book, that I also read about 30 years ago. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul. --President John Quincy Adams // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Weapons of Mass Delusion
The following from (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2003/06-30-2003/vo19no13_delusion.htm): Weapons of Mass Delusion Why did we go to war against Iraq? The official reason was not to defend the United States against an attack like the September 11th atrocities. It was to enforce UN Security Council Resolutions to disarm Iraq. Editor America will be making only one determination: is Iraq meeting the terms of the Security Council resolution [1441] or not?... If Iraq fails to fully comply, the United States and other nations will disarm Saddam Hussein. President George W. Bush November 8, 2002, the day the UN Security Council passed Resolution 1441 The world needs him [Saddam Hussein] to answer a single question: Has the Iraqi regime fully and unconditionally disarmed, as required by Resolution 1441, or has it not? President George W. Bush press conference, March 6, 2003 Coalition forces have commenced military operations in Iraq. These operations are necessary in view of Iraq's continued material breaches of its disarmament obligations under relevant Security Council resolutions, including 1441 (2002). The operations are substantial and will secure compliance with those obligations. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Negroponte letter to the president of the Security Council, March 20, 2003 Did Saddam directly threaten the U.S.? Secretary of State Colin Powell originally said Saddam did not directly threaten the U.S. But the administration's position changed. Editor He [Saddam Hussein] threatens not the United States. He threatens this region. He threatens Arab people. He threatens the children of Egypt, the children of Saudi Arabia, the children of Kuwait with these weapons. Secretary of State Colin Powell remarks to the press in Cairo, Egypt, February 24, 2001 Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, to our people, and to all free people I will not leave the American people at the mercy of the Iraqi dictator and his weapons. President George W. Bush press conference March 6, 2003 [W]e cannot live under the threat of blackmail. The terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment that Saddam Hussein is disarmed. President George W. Bush address to the nation, March 17, 2003 The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. President George W. Bush address to the nation, March 19, 2003 Was the Iraqi threat overblown? Prior to the war the administration portrayed Iraq as practically bulging with huge stockpiles of WMDs a country possessing so many dangerous weapons that it presented a unique threat to the world. Now, according to President Bush, the discovery of a couple of suspected mobile biological laboratories, or evidence that Saddam once had a weapons program, is supposed to confirm the administration's earlier assertions. Editor There are a number of terrorist states pursuing weapons of mass destruction Iran, Libya, North Korea, Syria, just to name a few but no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee September 19, 2002 The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it. The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it. Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. President George W. Bush State of the Union speech, January 28, 2003 Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets. Secretary of State Colin Powell presentation to the UN Security Council, February 5, 2003 [W]e have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have. President George W. Bush radio address, February 8, 2003 The goals of our coalition are clear and limited. We will end a brutal regime, whose aggression and weapons of mass destruction make
RE: [ZION] Danites
Danites and Avenging Angels are fun. One of the most imaginative and entertaining inventions of the anti-Mormons. Nibley has a good discussion of the topic in _Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass_. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Blood Atonement
The true doctrine of blood atonement is simple to explain -- 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. From _Mormon Doctrine_ -- President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: Man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light and knowledge that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone so far as in his power lies for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. . . . Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138.) This doctrine can only be practiced in its fulness in a day when the civil and ecclesiastical laws are administered in the same hands. It was, for instance, practiced in the days of Moses, but it was not and could not be practiced in this dispensation, except that persons who understood its provisions could and did use their influence to get a form of capital punishment written into the laws of the various states of the union so that the blood of murderers could be shed. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Blood Atonement
What a coincidence to find remarks on Utah's death penalty practices. Two firing squad executions were scheduled for next week, but were recently stayed pending bureacratic snafu. Utah still offers a choice to the condemned, though the policy is a topic of some controversy. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,485034295,00.html // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Blood Atonement
I take it this prohibits lethal injection method? Stacy. At 11:32 PM 06/18/2003 +, you wrote: The true doctrine of blood atonement is simple to explain -- 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. From _Mormon Doctrine_ -- President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: Man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light and knowledge that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone so far as in his power lies for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. . . . Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138.) This doctrine can only be practiced in its fulness in a day when the civil and ecclesiastical laws are administered in the same hands. It was, for instance, practiced in the days of Moses, but it was not and could not be practiced in this dispensation, except that persons who understood its provisions could and did use their influence to get a form of capital punishment written into the laws of the various states of the union so that the blood of murderers could be shed. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 06/10/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Danites
I've read the official stuff from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and such. Don't want the outrageous whispers. Door #2, our whispers. garth -Original Message- From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 9:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Danites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who can educate me on the Danites in the late 1830's and later? = Grampa Bill asks: You want the official history or the whispers? If the whispers, you want our whispers or the antis? I often ask, Where are the Danites when ya' really need them? Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Blood Atonement
John, I don't know the answers to these questions. All I can say is we need to accept the ever changing world of Mormonism. Things will change in both the Church and Mormon culture and we are not given explanations as to why. We just follow. Paul O On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:37:01 + John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Searching Google to learn more about the Danites, I ran across this at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/missouri.htm. In this article the following is stated about so-called blood atonement. --- The Danites originated the practice of blood atonement in the Mormon Church. (This doctrine was promoted by Church officials as late as 1961, but is now officially regarded as unorthodox.) The basic idea here is that there are certain sins for which the blood of Christ cannot cover the sinner; the sinner must have his own blood mingle with the soil to atone for that sin. These sins included: dissent, murder, adultery, theft, miscegenation, taking the Lord's name in vain, breaking covenants, leaving the Church, lying, counterfeiting, and condemning Joseph Smith, his Church, or any of its leaders. Spilling blood specifically meant: his throat cut from ear to ear, his tongue torn out by its roots, his breast cut open and his heart and vitals torn from his body and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field and his body cut asunder in the midst and all his bowels gush out. In practice, slitting a throat usually proved sufficient. Concerning this doctrine, Brigham Young later said: I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain in order to atone for their sins. ... I have known a great many men who have left this church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. ... This is loving our neighbours as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. --- What took place in 1961 officially making this doctrine unorthodox? Aren't there scriptures that buttress the idea that certain sins are of so heinous a nature that to obtain maximum forgiveness, the sinner must be put to death by the shedding of blood? Didn't Utah once offer a condemned murderer the choice of death by hanging or death by firing squad, the thought being that death by hanging sheds blood while hanging does not? What has changed in doctrine that makes this choice no longer necessary or desireable? My understanding is that Utah now executes murderers by lethal injection just like many other states. Why the change? Does a lethal injection, which does not shed blood, kill a person faster and more mercifully than a bullet through the heart? Your friend and brother, The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
