Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
John said: I don't know what is going on. None of my information sources are reliable. I don't know of any reliable information sources. But I smell a rat. Something is rotten in Copenhagen. Taken out of context, it sounds like you are one poor lost soul. ;-) Here, have some chocolate donuts: oo oo hee hee Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:41:57 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, I forgot to add. If you're interested in what's happened in the 27 years since the Joseph Smith Papyri: an Egyptian Endowment was published, try http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf a piece of scholarship which is, imo, all the more remarkable because it was written in two weeks by an amateur* (the speed pressure was because FAIR wanted to have something to hand out to people who came to see the anti-Book of Abraham video). Kerry Shirts is working on an even more technical response but that won't be ready for a few weeks yet. *I am not using the word amateur in the pejorative sense, but in the sense of someone whose vocation is not in that field, but who has studied enough to be considered a scholar in the field. As we have no professional theologians (and don't want any, thank you very much -- they just end up competing with legitimate priesthood authority like a few BYU religion profs I could name) amateur scholars is what we're going to get. They're humble enough to submit to Church authority but committed enough to master their field and give the anti-Mormon professionals a run for their money. Thanks for the URL. You are welcome to check out my URL if you like. I have spent many years studying the controversies surrounding the mystery of the Joseph Smith papyri and provide simple, clean, and easy to understand answers. http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id3.htm Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
Why are we (I include myself in that) latter-day saints so reluctant to get our year's supply of food? Not JWR. I have seen his stash. He is loaded with grain! When I visited him in Alaska I told him he may need a gun to protect his stock but he said he has so much he is willing to feed his neighbors too! What a swell guy. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
I'll bet they could whip the Mexican army if they were to invade. grin --JWR Boy, you are really on a roll these days. grin I thought I was really bad at kicking the beehive. I guess I've met my match! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
I'll slightly violate a personal (temporary) rule of mine and ask all on this list who think that Canada needs the US to protect it: Canada would beg for US assistance if their country was under attack by aliens from outer space. It could happen. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase free agency, but rather use moral agency. What the reason is, I do not know. Sound like this is political correct stuff that I simply don't care for. Does this mean they are going to rewrite the records too? I certainly hope not. I'm going to continue to use the term free agency not matter what anyone says. Using Our Free Agency Elder Delbert L. Stapley Of the Council of the Twelve Delbert L. Stapley, Using Our Free Agency, Ensign, May 1975, 21 My brothers, sisters, and friends, one of Gods most precious gifts to man is the principle of free agency... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Bruce R McConkie
Conference is coming!! But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way. (Bruce R. McConkie) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] music
But I think they could have found better music for it. The tune doesn't measure to the lyrics. Of course that is just my opinion, and it is just a matter of taste. Is something wrong with me? I really don't care for the music of quite a few of the LDS hymns. Some of them come off as whiny and annoy my senses as I try to worship and I actually put the book down. My wife feels the same way so maybe I'm not alone in this thing. I would be relieved to see the hymnbook reduced by about 50% and enjoy the balance just fine. To me many of the hymns lack real quality. Am I just out of step and being a bad boy? I'm really not trying to kick the beehive on this but would be interested in what others think. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION]
I get to give a talk tomorrow on the theme Follow the Prophet, so I am feeling rather humble today. I even skipped responding to Marc on a topic, and actually had kind thoughts toward him. Sounds like you are becoming a good Christian. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
John W. Redelfs wrote: Sadam doesn't have an ideology. If he does, it is I'm boss, and I'll crush anyone who tries to tear down my power. Quite a few world leaders seem to share this ideology, even some in our own country. Jon Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of your investigations? Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown? I was kind of wondering about this too, Jon. We have free elections in this country and I don't hear about opposing candidates being murdered or crushed. In this country the loosing party always steps down peaceably and the business of running the government continues in different hands. Even former President Bush stepped down so the slimy worm Bill Clinton could muck up the white house chair. (Gee--that sounded bad but I'm going to post this anyways) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] No War?
More importantly I suspect also the church will begin to make inroads into old Babylon. The Crusaders already tried that approach: the Bible on the point of a sword. What makes you think the Book of Mormon on the muzzle of a tank will work any better? Because the church is true? :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision has the backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, President Larsen et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you meant to write. I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that George Bush is a descent man... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even vote. That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of your founding fathers. I don't care. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
I'm sorry that I'm being offensive, but sometimes it just cannot be avoided. Ignorant people are getting us into a war that is not in the national interest. I beg to differ. It certainly appears that there are quite a few folks that are interested in seeing this war carried out. Even in Zion. Hmm. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I just wish I could know whether or not any of our beloved national leaders intentionally looked the other way while all this was coming down. I have to believe that any one of our national leaders would have given their own lives to prevent 911. (Clinton included). I don't believe the conspiracy theories. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
We had PROOF that Clinton committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was. FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does not start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and power today? It is Bush and company. Yes proof is needed, John. You have more or less called someone a murderer and that is a heavy thing to say; we are all held accountable for what we say. I was going to vote for Bush but I didn't get off my lazy butt and get registered in time. Please prove to me that Bush is a Gadianton. I KNOW you cant do that. I think it is your opinion and you are entitled to that. But--bear in mind that many people in the church including on this list prayerfully studied the issues and prayed to Heavenly Father about who they should vote for as President of the United States. Is The Spirit a robber for inspiring thousands of LDS people to vote for a robber? I see a contradiction in this matter, John. The prophet does NOT support your theory. The prophet will glady shake hands with the President and promote his genealogy and posterity to the third and fourth generation. Bush is a descent man. I know it. And I know God lives too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. --- Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR I wasn't comparing the men. I was comparing the principles involved. It wasn't the business of the sex hungry murderous Egyptians to know that Sarah was Abraham's wife so Abraham lied as he was told to do. Good for him. Likewise, it wasn't the business of the whole world to tear into Clinton's personal sex habits, so he lied. Good for him. I would have done the same. I personally wasn't interested in the pornographic garbage the media published and I did not read about it on the web when the report was published. That makes me pretty clean; huh? I'm sooo good Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren Sandra I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or office chair is NOT our business. It's not our business to know about the sexual practices of the leaders of our country. We do not OWN them. They have a job to do and they get paid to do it. Likewise, your company and boss have no right to question you about your sexual acts and if they were to publish stuff you would probably sew them. Its none of their business. And, just because a man is elected President does not mean he has to put his naked body on the table for everyone to gawk at. That is so sick! No man has to choose the moral highroad just because they are President and open their bedroom doors for the world to see. Neither can we impose our values on them. President Clinton had a job to do and he was paid to get it done. Unfortunately people insisted that they know all about his sex habits. gross We elect our officials based on what we know about them before hand. That doesn't mean after they are elected we can strip them of their clothes and shame them in front of the whole world. President Clinton made mistakes--that's true. But so does everyone. And that includes young men who are preparing to go on missions until the new bar is enforced. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
1. Secret Combinations Oct. 1986: From the Book of Mormon we see the evils of secret combinations portrayed in graphic and chilling reality . . . . We should constantly ask ourselves, 'Why did the Lord inspire Mormon (or Moroni or Alma) to include that in his record? What lesson can I learn from that to help me live in this day and age?' (Conference Report, Oct. 1986, Ensign, Nov. 1986, pp. 6-7; also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 59.) I see nothing here that refers to the President of the United States. The Book of Mormon reminds us to avoid the evils of Babylon. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
April 1989: Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, and glory of the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . . . Secret combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (Conference Report, Oct. 1989, Ensign, May 1989, p. 6.) There is corruption in governement. It exists. And when the voice of the people choose evil the country is in big trouble. Who was President in 1989? Did President Bensen shake hands with that man? I think so. Was President Bensen also a Gadianton? Nope. And neither was the President of the United States. Prophets don't shake hands with murderers. Let that be a SIGN to you. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
Steve wrote: Below are six statements from President Ezra Taft Benson regarding a world- wide conspiracy that is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. These warnings have come to us from God through His living prophet. All six statements came after his call in 1985 to be President of the Church. They cannot be safely ignored. Without an understanding of these prophetic warnings, we cannot correctly interpret national and world events. President Bensen only taught that secret combinations exists in the earth and in the including the USA. He did NOT target individuals or call our elected leaders Gadiantons. I too admit that secret combinations exist in the earth but as I said, I'm NOT into conspiracy theories at all. That means I don't want to know about them and I'm not going to do anything about it either. Let the prophet go forth and root out the Gadiantons. I'm not getting involved. He can call fire down from heaven and destroy them. The First Presidency did not give the church instructions on how to go out and get the Gadiantons. Generalizations were made and we are reminded not to mix ourselves with Babylon. I feel the prophets should protect the saints and if they are inclined to muster a rebellion with the government--fine. Just count me out. President Benson's apostolic statements during the 42 years prior to his becoming President of the Church are also helpful as we seek to understand his prophetic statements on this important subject. Many of these apostolic statements were keynote addresses made with the full support, advice, and even explicit recommendation by President David O. McKay. Need two witnesses? Add David O. McKay as a second witness. During this time Elder Benson gave 15 General Conference addresses What have the prophets done to push a plan to get the Gadiantons? Shouldn't they be killed? They are murderers! As I say--I feel that President Bensen was making generalizations on how the saints should avoid the evils of the world. There was no formal campaign put in place to attack the Gadiantons as was done in the Book of Mormon. Today is a whole new ball game. Things are done differently. and President McKay, over a dozen on freedom, free enterprise, fiscal responsibility, the Constitution, and agency. They invariably tied these topics into showing the evils of secret combinations. (Sheri Dew, Ezra Taft Benson: A Biography, Deseret Book, 1987, pp. 366,367.) Finally, God does not call as Prophets men who teach false doctrine. Great! I'm glad that our prophets are patriotic and recognize the evils that exist in the world. Now--tell me which President of the USA was called a Gadianton by a church President? They don't do it and neither should you or John. It's bad form. And, Gary Smith said it's not right to do so and he is as strait as an arrow. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret combinations, just as the Church today could point out many threats to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work, but it has singled out as the greatest threat the Godless conspiracy. There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormonit is a conspiracy fact. I seek to live by the principles of the Book of Mormon. A man can get closer to God by abiding the precepts therein than any other book. I'll leave the conspiracies to the prophets since they seem to know so much about them. If the Lord wills it-- let the prophets go out and fight our battles by approaching the beasts, false prophets, and Gadiantons. The power is in their hands. Notice how he said that they threaten the spread of God's work? Sound like Iraq to me. All in all you have failed to make your case. The church does not have a program in place for LDS people to get involved in conspiracy facts or theories. We are too busy raising our families and trying to be good. We are too busy trying to be politically correct so everyone will like the Mormons. Let the prophet go up against the beast! Count me out! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
I think you have a Pollyanna view of Prophets and their role. In 1959, at President McKay's request, [then] Elder Ezra Taft Benson welcomed and shook hands with the butcher of the Ukraine, Nikita Kruschev. More recently, at the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii, Church leaders met with some of the leaders of the murderous Communist Chinese regime. So what? The First Presidency meets with a lot of people in an official capacity, not all of them righteous upstanding individuals, and a few of them with hearts full of murder. Well, I don't know much about Kruschev other than he backed down against the blockade in Cuba. Whether he is a murderer or not is not for me to decide. Same thing goes for the Chinese leaders. And if the prophet does shake hands with murderers--all I can say is I am terribly disappointed and I disapprove. Oh well. I suppose that these guys you call murderers have already been baptized by proxy? What a deal. :-( Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness
The Lord's priesthood has a mission to perform for liberty-loving people everywhere. We cannot, any more than Jonah of old, run away from our calling. (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 620; italics added.) I'm not running away. I'm just not going to get involved with politics. I don't want to know. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. Let the prophets take care of it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Irregardless, the term is regardless
Noticed someone used a term that is a pet peeve of mine. Technically, the term irregardless is bad grammar. To be grammatically correct, you can use: irregarding or regardless. The IR and the less cancel each other out, kind of a double negative. Well, its listed in Websters. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the camera and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about that affair. That's why he was impeached. It was an evil investigation brought on by the Gadianton Media. And sorry to say the people of this country wanted all the dirt because that is what they enjoy. Sad and sorry. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees... The White HOUSE is also for the President to manage his own personal affairs. That is where he lives. It seems that some people on this list don't believe in the right of privacy but think they OWN the lives of government leaders lock, stock, and barrel. Well you don't. The Senate has spoken! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
All be if you were to do a study you would learn that the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years supply of food that the average active member. They vote differently too, so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand before the Judge. Well, it's certainly nice to know that you guys are more inspired then the rest of the LDS voters. Too bad the Spirit hasn't touched the saints who voted Republican. They will pay for their errors! Repent you heathen Republicans! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is apparently not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we who can clearly see these things have other areas where we are blind. According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs all of the gifts in his Church. We all have something of value to bring to the Church, even the lowliest among us. I'd pay top dollar to find out who the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve voted for. Marc; who was it that you said was a Democrat? I wonder if President Hinkley voted for Bush. Hmmm. I'll bet he did. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming a Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't imagine I would be a very good Democrat. I think I understand a little bit what you are saying and we talked about it when I visited you. I'm torn between the parties. I like a lot of things the Democrats push and I like a lot of things that the Republicans push and the reverse is also true. But, as Gary said, the Democrats are in favor of things that I simply cannot tolerate. And the Republicans in the end make me barf up. The other parties don't have a chance and I don't want to vote for a looser. I'm stuck. What do I do? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the presidential race unmarked. Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted? Dog-gonnit John! You made me laugh so hard I spit all over my screen! Where is the bottle of alcohol so I can clean my screen? choking, uhhh Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priest
Then you would logically follow from your argument that one wouldn't have to be ordained a god, king and high priest? That's not what I read in the scriptures. I read in Rev 1:6 and other references that we must be made kings and high priests unto God the Father. I'm willing to learn and change my view but I know of no scripture that says we must be ordained High Priests. Rev 1:6 simply acknowledges the priesthood in that we are a kingdom of priests unto God. If it was necessary to be a High Priest the ordinations would be performed for the dead in the temple. I'll change my mind once you submit proof that one must be ordained a High Priest to become a god. Then again, perhaps when God ordains us to the office of god it includes everything. What I really mean to say Gary is that the office of High Priest is not necessary in this life for every man. I'm sure you will agree with that. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't get the big bucks. My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. To make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I could give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who he calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a person's talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to be bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed many talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has not developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become successful in business also. Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only gives a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The Lord looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will sacrifice the television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. This type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in business. Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
Cousin Bill If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Sounds good to me. What do you think John? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am) I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for him again. Then I voted for Bush and have not been back to the polls since. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money too. It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him too. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Ok. Have a nice day. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with regard to income within the stake boundaries. How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom He will call, income notwithstanding. That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're wrong. Where do you live? Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money, resources, and prestige. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] liberal question
The liberal philosphy tending towards pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-pornography, the free-drug/booze/sex culture. This would be so anti-LDS's philososphy, that in all conscienceness that the straight-laced LDS would even attempt to go to the temple. This is not what liberal means to me at all. But I won't argue the point any further -- the term, like the demonization, doesn't translate well across borders. God is a liberal. (James 1:5) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
What do I do? Heidi the fair Don't worry. They will catch him soon. A lot of people are watching and those who know the sniper may catch on that something is wrong and report it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James! I think the only way you're going to get the bones of James is if you tug on his LIVING limbs. If you do that Gary I'm sure he'll smack you. ha ha ha ha Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priest
Hopefully, these will help to show the importance of the future ordination of all of us brethren as high priests and kings unto God the Father. Ok. I'm convinced. I look forward to my ordination someday. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. Point taken. Thanks. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can understand how you would prefer an educated man. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for food? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done ng prestigious. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the perspective elders who never got ordained. Gee wizz. Now I feel like I'm in with the loosers. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Clinton the Felon
The way I feel about it, the Senate betrayed its country when it acquitted Clinton of the impeachment. I feel the opposite. The Congress was reckless but the Senate was prudent and demonstrated a high level of maturity. I was glad to see some sanity restored in the House of government. The congress brought more shame to our country then Clinton ever did as they demonstrated their self righteous hypocritical colors before all the world. Poor Clinton. He was a victim. Clinton wasn't being tried for naughty behavior in the Oval Office, that was just prurient media hype for people with dirty minds. Rather he was tried for lying under oath and obstruction of justice. Both are felonies. Both would mean serious prison time for either you or I. Yet the Senate acquitted him after admitting he was guilty. They said, Yes, he is guilty of felony perjury and obstruction of justice, but that isn't serious enough for an conviction. It isn't high crimes and misdemeanors. They gave him a pass on criminal behavior. I never though I would live to see the day. Clinton was attacked by a pack of hungry wolves. It wasn't fair. He was a victim of circumstances that should have never taken place. It was cruel and cunning. He was treated as though he had no right of privacy and that is unconstitutional in my opinion. I'm glad that he was vindicated in the eyes of the law. His American rights were clearly violated. He deserved full pardon for whatever he may have done wrong. How did you like having a felon in the White House? I didn't like it. It made me ashamed to be an American. It wasn't Clinton that offended me. It was the American voter. They didn't seem to care that their President was a criminal. It means the people have lost all honor. In our grandfather's day I don't think it could have happened. It shows that we are no longer a virtuous people, if we ever were. I'm not ashamed to be an American no matter what! The acts and deeds of an unrighteous President will never make me ashamed of being an American. Frankly, as much as I disdained Clinton and was hopping mad at some of his policies I think he did a pretty good job as President. And, he was good for extra laughs too. The whole world thought he was funny. :-) Bush is boring. I want Clinton back. hah ha ha ha Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint? No. You cannot be a Democrat and hold a temple recommend. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?
Hmmm - my husband is writhing on the ground in severe pain, muttering something about Section 121, so I'll just send this off for him. He does some mighty strange things sometimes. But he's a High Priest, and that seems pretty par for the course for those guys. Nancy, Jon's wife Section 121? Oh. Perhaps he is suffering from exercising unrighteous dominion? ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Quorum Brotherhood
I've tried everything I can think of. Every time I've been an elder's president, quorum brotherhood has been a top priority of mine. It used to be a lesson in the manual once a year or so. But I've never won a convert. Strange. I would think that quorum brotherhood would be easier to forge on an island such as Ketchikan. Here in Dallas people come and go so fast that it makes the roster spin. Play more, work less. And when you play, make sure it is a joint outing between you and your wife and children, and those of another elder in the quorum. Invite another elder with his family to your house for dinner, or if that is too much work, just invite them for a two family ice cream social. Do you like to picnic? Persuade another elder in the quorum to bring his wife and kids with you on your next picnic outing. This is pretty good advice. The problem is that half the elders work evenings or long hours and the wives are stuck home alone. I know this sounds dumb, but if necessary, pass around a sign up sheet like we do with the missionaries. The point is, two families cannot become close if they never spend any time together. Nor can two men become quorum brothers if they don't even know each other. I've been in quorums where I never did learn the names of the other members unless they were in the presidency or served as instructor. We have done this in our ward. It's really cool to have dinner at someone else's house and vice versa. The best time to get to know people is when you are eating with them. I highly recommend it. John, thanks again for your hospitality while I was with you. Your wife sure can cook. The salmon was just fantastic and the carrots were out of this world. Ummm. And don't forget to soak the cracked wheat pan! ;-) I've had it pointed out to me that young fathers with growing families don't have time to share except with their families. I don't understand that excuse. Many activities are ideal for two families to do together. And I have never found an elder who was too busy if he had any desire to make friends. After all, we all have the same number of hours every day. Well, the bottom line is people tend to do what they WANT to do and they will always find an excuse for getting out of what they don't want to do. It's human nature, less then perfect. Rent a video at Blockbuster, invite another family over, make a bunch of popcorn, and sit around doing with another family what you would be doing anyway. Not my cup of tea. I don't watch movies very much as I am not able to give my attention to Hollywood's ideas. It's all too fakey to me. I don't even like the LDS TV commercials because they remind me of Grape Nuts which set my teeth on edge. It's a good thing I got new crowns recently. Do you date your wife weekly as the prophets have suggested? I often take my wife out for breakfast on Saturday morning. Ketchikan is rather short on acceptable Friday night opportunities. And while you are going out for breakfast, see if another elder in the quorum might like to make it a double date. It's still a date with your wife, and you are building quorum brotherhood at the same time. How am I suppose to date my wife when she is out spending all the money on her own time? ;-) Gentiles have beer drinking buddies. Most men who hunt do it with friends. But many active LDS elders are just too focused on job and family to pursue any kind of friendship with other men. I don't mean to sound negative, but I've just never had any cooperation when I talk about this. Well, if I lived in Ketchikan JWR and Paul O would be best friends. We could set the example and show the other guys how it is done. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best light. But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in Chief. I have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or I'll just be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Cult of personality
A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and a good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon. --JWR I can see that John has slammed the Democrat Mormons with his little jingle. So, if a Democrat can be a good Mormon but a good Democrat cannot be a good Mormon this means that a only a bad Democrat can be a good Mormon. Woe unto the good Democrats for they must turn from their ways and repent! Right John? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Trouble is, where is the General Authority who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is a general consensus then? O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
Gary said: There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), Yep. but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. I don't think so Gary and neither does Bruce R. McConkie: Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, where man becomes as God is. I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all you want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself. Liberal is still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking world. I agree. The Republicans are trying to kill a perfectly good word just like certain people killed the word gay. I hope everyone has a gay weekend. :-)) ha ha ha Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
It was merely a rhetorical question. Oh. I'm a little dumb. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
We know that a temple will be built in Jerusalem before the Second Coming. We also know that a temple will be built in Jackson County before the Savior comes. Question: will the temple in Jerusalem have to be built and dedicated under the authority and supervision of the Melchizedek priesthood? Or will unbelieving Jews find some way of building a real temple without authority from God? We know that a temple is just a building until it has been dedicated by the priesthood. Will that rule still hold in Jerusalem before the Second Coming. I think we have been here before. It's a good subject. I say that the Jews can't build a temple that the Lord will accept. A temple must be built and consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews cannot do that. The temple in Jerusalem will be built by the LDS church for in behalf of Mormon Jews. The LDS church is the only people under the heavens that can perform such a work. To think that the Jews will build a temple outside of the authority of the Mormons is just like saying the Jehovah's Witnesses can do so too. There is no scriptural reference to support such an idea. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
Dan: We might be in for a surprise here. The key, I think, is in the actual consecration of the temple. The Jews will probably build it, as a temple,... they won't have the authority to consecrate it, but the actual construction could be done in the faith that God will provide the means once it's accomplished Sorry, but Bruce R McConkie said otherwise and I trust his judgment as final in this matter. Now all we have to do is sit back and see how the apostle's words will be verified. Otherwise, Bruce R McConkie didn't know what he was talking about and we could just as well get our advice from a Baptist preacher on this matter. BTW, was Elder McConkie rich too? ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] kings and priests
And with reference to all others who also receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, the scripture saith: And all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually. (JST, Heb. 7:3.) That is to say, they will be kings and priests forever; their priesthood will continue to all eternity; they will have eternal life. (Priesthood session, Saturday, October 1, 1977) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] James' ossuary
Why? There's no evidence that he's resurrected. The James that ordained Joseph Smith was James the Greater, brother of John the Apostle. This James is brother of Jesus, who converted after the resurrection of Christ, and became the bishop of Jerusalem, as well as author of the book of James. For all we know, he's still in the Spirit World working Well, who knows? Wasn't Moroni resurrected? I kind of figured that saints prior to the great apostasy have been resurrected. Then again I recall St Paul speaking of the resurrection in a far future tense and connected it with the second coming. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
Mark Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. Correct. The Nephites did not officiate in the Aaronic priesthood until after the Savior appeared to them. All priesthood administration in the BoM before Christ was in the high priesthood which is after the order of the Son of God. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Grampa Bill responds: I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he want to work as a machinist for the county. I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. Gee wiz Grampa, that must have been a long long long time ago before the unwritten rule was written. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple
You have to remember that this is a terrestrial/Mosaic temple, NOT a celestial/MP temple. We could help them build it so they could perform their ordinances... However, the Jews still await the Messiah, and so are still under the Mosaic Law. Their temple would sacrifice animals, and if they are humble, I believe it would be acceptable to tthe Lord on a terrestrial level, just as it was in centuries past. This is not correct doctrine. The Lord cannot accept an offering done outside the bounds which the Lord has set insomuch as all ordinances pertaining to the gospel must be done by proper priesthood authority--exactly as prescribed by the doctrine and covenants of Mormonism. Animal sacrifice must be performed under the code of Moses 4:6-8 in order for it to be ACCEPTABLE to God. Your statement sounds nice on a politically correct front but is completely false. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple
The Levites were given the Aaronic Priesthood as a hereditary position. They have a right to serve in that level of truth they have. They do not have all the saving truths or ordinances, but a temple built upon the Mosaic law would probably be accepted by God IF they were truly dedicated to a terrestrial/Mosaic belief system. What are you talking about? Levites? What Levites? No man can take this authority upon himself. Either you get the authority to act in the name of God through the Mormon priesthood or it is simply a futile act which cannot be validated no matter how nice their intentions are. These unauthorized acts would be no more acceptable to God as are the countless baptisms performed by the members of the church of the Devil as spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ and his true church and not by a start up religion that wants to restore the Mosaic law no matter how dedicated they may be. And by the way--you said: They do not have *all* the saving truths or ordinances but I submit to you that they have NONE because all saving truths and ordinances are in Christ Jesus, the Son of God. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Disturbing Contradiction
This is exactly how I see it and this is what the scriptures teach. I can tell that John is quite familiar and in perfect touch with the style of Bruce R McConkie's teachings and Mark E Peterson's too. All of the GA's teach this but deliver it in their own style. Some are gentle like President Monson and some pound the fist on the pulpit like Mark E Peterson did but the message of the apostasy and the restoration is clearly told. Paul O On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:48:37 -0800 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't believe there is any inconsistency or contradiction in Church doctrine on the matter, but am becoming increasingly disturbed by what I see as a growing inconsistency in the minds of the saints over the relative merits of apostate religions and true Christianity as only practised by the saints. Of course there is some truth in other denominations. So what? Nobody has ever said otherwise. But the whole idea of a true Church loses all meaning if we don't remember that for there to be a true Church there have to be false churches. False churches teach false doctrine. They do not lead their members towards Christ. On the contrary, most of them so confuse their members with false teachings that they reject our missionaries when otherwise they might have listened to them. If it isn't a true Church, it is a false church. I should think that would be obvious. The saints seem to be incapable of understanding the difference between the false doctrine taught by other churches and the good people who are misled by those doctrines. We need to learn to discern between the various churches that people belong to and the people themselves. But no, every time I point out something wrong about the teachings of another church, I get practically booed out of the house by protestations that other churches have some truth. Did I ever deny it? They just don't have priesthood. They don't have unpolluted doctrines. The do not have the power to save. And if a person remains committed to them, they will be damned for rejecting the servants of Christ and his gospel. A man who lives and dies a Buddhist has as much chance of obtaining eternal life as a Baptist who does the same. I say this keeping in mind that some Buddhists join the Church, and so do some Baptists. But they are the only Buddhists and Baptists we are going to be associating with in the Celestial Kingdom if we are fortunate enough to end up there ourselves. Broad is the path to destruction, but the narrow gate to the Celestial Kingdom is the baptism performed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And there is no other way to get in. No one obtains the Celestial Kingdom unless he becomes, dead or alive, a member of the Church. There seem to be a lot of people who are losing sight of this fundamental teaching of the gospel. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] American Gnosticism
I recently heard Mormonism referred to as American gnosticism. What does that mean? I'm not sure but it sounds like something that is associated with the ideas and teachings of a progressive religion that has it's own tangents outside of mainstream thinking. I can see how this term could be applied to several other Christian religions besides Mormonism. I don't see it as a negative thing at all but simply a term for classifying religious evolution; or should I say, revolution? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from publically discussing their problems or mistakes My last Stake President was excommunicated. Shortly after his excommunication he being accompanied by the new Stake President visited the priesthood quorums and the Relief Society to express his apologies. I seem to remember he visited the youth too. He appeared to be very sorry but no longer towered with a spiritual aura but appeared shrunken. It was evident that he did not have the Holy Ghost. It was really strange. Take heed brothers and sisters, any of us including the sanctified can fall. And that means you! Watch and be on guard. Pray always and don't give up. Satan has your number and he will work on you relentlessly. He does with me and I'm having a hard time holding on as I'm going through the fire of testing. Gadzooks, I will be glad when it's over--someday. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] My Future plans
All of this and I have a sparkling personality. Controversial? No, not me, not in the least! Just ask everyone on this list that I agree with everything they believe in. JWR's conspiracies? Definitely! Marc's liberal views? Of course I agree with them. It's election time and I'm ready to promise anything to get a decent job. ;-) What about Paul's 6,000 year plan, man? Will you buy that one too? ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] My Future plans
so I'll considered most anything legal and moral. Sorry but those positions no longer exist! ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family members say. I don't care what the person taught--he or she cannot be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. But, if they continue in their *disobedience* after having been admonished not to to teach false doctrine they will undoubtedly find themselves under some sort of church discipline which could lead to excommunication depending on the nature and extent of their sin. Polygamy? No thanks. I'm not going to get involved. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard. I agree. I believe that we all knew every single person who has and will come to this earth in the finest degree. We were super intelligent in the preexistence and were learning to think like God on a much higher level than we think now. Yes, we all know each other very intimately and the inhabitants of this earth share a common bond together as we serve in this mission. It is a terrible thing to trespass against another person. The atonement will prevent a lot of pain that would be our due if we didn't repent. Christ truly suffered beyond our ability to know. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
I agree. You're an excellent reader and thanks for pointing out the difference. Paul O On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:33 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote: No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine. Also, if he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to stop. And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will be excommunicated. We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and not doctrine. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Maybe the scriptures really are just an ancient collection of Hebrew folk talks. Is that possible? Well, I've put all my eggs in one basket in the which the scriptures are true. However, it seems that symbolism plays a major part in the stories told of the Bible which could make what we think is reality as something totally different. I don't know John. I just try to believe. I try to have faith but I don't have any interest in trying to be perfect in this life. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet and have felt the awesome power of the Holy Ghost tell me it's true. I believe in Joseph Smith just as much as I believe in Christ. To me, Jesus is no more the Savior than Joseph is a prophet and they both are equally true. Take one away and they both collapse together. The scriptures on the other hand are open to continuous interpretation because they have many abstract concepts that need further explaining. I'll be very upset to learn that the earth was not universally flooded as I believed or that the 6,000 year plan was not so. I don't like believing in untruths. I want the truth and nothing but the truth. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian
Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a throw away remark, as after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed. O dear! I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you get... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
That's exactly what I wrote: I *don't* believe the scriptures are secular histories. If this was so, the apostles and prophets from Joseph Smith on would have told us so. everything I have ever heard from modern prophets teaches that the old history of the world is true and historical unless you choose to believe that our religion is based upon lies, fairy tales, and faith promoting nonsense. I suppose you might also think Moses was a myth because there is not one scrap of credible evidence of Moses or the Israelites in Egypt and I hope you don't choose to argue this point with me because you will loose big time. So beware! That's your assumption, but it doesn't say anything about them in the Bible. That's the problem with trying to deal with the Bible as a secular history -- it doesn't fit. Since when does the Bible tell all? I suppose you also think the Book for Mormon is not a secular history too? You are marching on really shaky ground the kind of which I dare not go and the kind which if you werer to teach from the pulpit you would find yourself being yanked to the floor by the bishop. Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Paul Osborne wrote: --- Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? --- Sure, happy to-- PINCH! OUCH!! You didn't have to do it so hard, you meanie. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
JWR confessed I'm just a black and white kind of guy. Me too. And, I don't take prisoners. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? I know I exist, but maybe you're a figment of my imagination . . . ;-) That's kind of what I'm talking about. Maybe we are not even real and that all this has not come to pass. Perhaps our 60x Great Grand Father God is sitting on a cloud in yonder heaven and contemplating the future of one of his grandchildren (Eloheim) and the planet earth. How do we know we are real? This whole thing could be the day dreaming of a God who is looking at the future. The scriptures prove in the revelation saying He lives but how do we know that we really live? Ok, I'm going to go light a candle and some incense and say a little chant now. Ha ha ha heheh eahah ah a. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 00:59:01 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: Archaeology also shows that Jericho didn't have the walls tumbling down when Joshua fought it. I don't believe archaeology knows what it is talking about. The scriptures say that the walls came tumbling down, so they did. And that's that. So how do we reconcile the fact that the archaeological remains down show a tumbled down wall. I think it can be reconciled in a couple of ways. 1) Archaeologists may have the wrong ruins, that is, they are excavating a town that is not Jericho. 2) The have the right town, but all of the tumbled wall was used as building materials for constructing another wall and building homes. 3) After the walls tumbled, and the town was destroyed, it was rebuilt in another location keeping the same name. Whatever the case, there has to be a reconciliation. Or are we to suppose that the bible could be wrong about so simple a thing? If we can't trust the bible on so simple a thing as the destruction of Jericho, why should we believe the story of the parting of the Red Sea, or the story of Joshua stopping the sun in the sky, or the parting of the waters of Jordan, or manna falling from heaven? I consider it far more likely that archaeologist are wrong than it is that the scriptures are wrong. I agree with you on this issue, John. They are digging in the wrong place and have the levels all out of whack. The chronology as understood by modern man is in grave error. Egyptologist David Rhol has made excellent points (with real facts) on how they are digging in the wrong level--in the wrong time. It all goes back to the misdating by modern science. The book Pharaohs and Kings by David Rhol offers compelling reasons to rethink how things have been dated. He has also done a documentary that was on TV. It might be in your library. I doubt you have time or interest but his website is (in case any one is interested and has heard of his work): http://www.nunki.net/ But, to save you time, I wrote a small scholarly paper reflecting (exact points) David Rhol's book regarding some key points of interest on how Egyptologists have assigned too many years to some of the dynasties of late. I highly recommend you read it because it will introduce you to his work which has become a significant force in the world of psedo Egyptology. David Rhol is not religious at all but has interest in showing how the Bible has gotten a bum rap by modern science. His work is extremely compelling! http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id51.htm Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden
Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR I'm convinced he is dead. You can buy anything in this world for money but only if it exists. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Books
After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My present choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by Joseph Fielding Smith. I agree, absolutely!! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. Amen. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose their lives in such an attack? IMO, that's all part of the deal. War is hell but we must fight it to win at minimal cost to our own side and if nuclear bombs will achieve that end, I am all for it. Whoever attacks this country should be made to pay the ultimate price and that will set the example for the rest of the world and probably deter future wars. Nuclear explosions are merciful because they vaporize a large part of the enemy quickly and get rid of the problem right away. Everyone is so worried about the innocents. THAT'S WAR! The Lord and Joshuah weren't worried about the innocents. Slay them ALL! The object is to win and not take any chances of loosing. It's dangerous for a bleeding heart liberal to lead troops in a battle and expect victory. Take that wuss Jimmy Carter for example; Oh blah! He sent some helicopters into Iran for a rescue and that was a big fat joke. We should have bombed Iran and set the example back then and declared the hostages war heros. Then we could have exacted tribute and filled the coffers of American banks as a further punishment against our enemies. You mark my words--Iran is going to be a real problem for us in the not so distant future. We Americans will pay for our failure to bomb them properly as we should have done. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Oh brother, give me a break! Try telling that to the victims of 911! You talk as if the government is the great enemy of our lives. I think the above was one of your overstatements that you do from time to time. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
JWR asked: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. You better believe it. The Islamic fundies are the ones that are going to bring to pass Armageddon as the rest of the world charges into the great final battle. Those Muslims are going to attack the Jews and the Jews will have no choice but to launch all of their nuclear weapons. The whole thing can be laid squarely on the shoulders of the Muslims. They are going to be the cause of WWIII. IMO, of course. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Stacy asked I've wanted out of here for some time. Does that mean I'm wrong? Some people have a real hard time living in this lousy world. Coping skills vary too. I'm rather weak and have panic/anxiety attacks that cannot be easily controlled and do silly outbursts in public or sometimes act like a complete idiot. That might not be your problem--but I'm sure you have your own bag of troubles as we all do. Just hang in there. If I can do it anyone can because I'm a real mess. Death is a wonderful release for the righteous and an essential ordinance of the gospel. I hope I'm the first person on this list to experience this ordinance. Try not to get mad at God because it just doesn't do any good. I've been through it and sometimes I think God is real mean and I just want to yell at him but I love him so much so I don't yell at him very often. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Steve, I still stay that all out war is always on the table when it comes to preserving ones country, religion, and liberties--notwithstanding what a church leader has said on the subject from the not so distance past. I'm not prepared to see my country go down for any reason even if it meant the entire destruction of other countries. Whatever it takes to preserve our rights and liberties must be considered. Now--you probably can guess that I don't want to see civilians killed because I don't. I think smaller tactical nuclear bombs are more prudent. But if that doesn't work than I think the full size bombs could be dropped if that is what it takes to save us from the destruction of American life and property. I'm quite disappointed to learn that any church leader from the WWII era opposed the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Quote Thus we in America are now deliberately searching out and developing the most savage, murderous means of exterminating peoples that Satan can plant in our minds. We do it not only shamelessly, but with a boast. God will not forgive us for this. If we are to avoid extermination, if the world is not to be wiped out, we must find some way to curb the fiendish ingenuity of men who have apparently no fear of God, man, or the devil, and who are willing to plot and plan and invent instrumentalities that will wipe out all the flesh of the earth. And, as one American citizen of one hundred thirty millions, as one in one billion population of the world, I protest with all of the energy I possess against this fiendish activity, and as an American citizen, I call upon our government and its agencies to see that these unholy experimentations are stopped, and that somehow we get into the minds of our war-minded general staff and its satellites, and into the general staffs of all the world, a proper respect for human life. (President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1946, Afternoon Meeting 89.) /Quote If we didn't develop the atomic bombs and make plenty of them isn't it possible that we might not be here today to read this quote because the Russians or some other country would have nuked us? I'm glad that the above quote is in the archives only and is not quoted in our conferences today. That would really depress me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. I think a demonstration about 5 miles offshore might have accomplished the same purpose. Stephen was right, Steven. Your demonstration idea is too risky. We had to do what we did when we had the opportunity. A proper demonstration was given to the Japanese and they reacted in the only responsible way they could--they surrendered. I'm grateful that the American leaders of that era had the courage to do what had to be done. Once again, American military intelligence (top secret) unknown to the rest of us civilians including church leaders was a deciding factor in carrying out a duty that must be performed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
The primary objective is to kill people and break things, with more success than the enemy. Morality aside, this is the reality of warfare. Amen. Kill the enemy!! That is what I learned when I served in the US Army for a brief period. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
If Jewish and Christian fundies don't beat them to it by attacking the Temple Mount. Well, anything is possible. But--you have to consider that the Jews had their chance and still do--but they don't overstep their bounds by attacking that disgusting dome. The Muslims are a force that can't be trusted. Remember what they did in Iran when Carter was President? The religion of Islam is a dangerous threat to the whole world and it is antichrist for sure. God will destroy all the millions of Muslims who come up against Judah in the last days at Armageddon. Islam will fall by a mighty hand and will not survive into the millennium. That is my prediction. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
(plus the usual Canuckistani comeback, which is that given what y'all are [not] taught about geography in school, we have no need to fear, because we know you'd have to find us first...) Hey Marc; would you mind stepping out of my cross hairs as you are blocking my vision. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Jon wisely said: Those who want to fault the US for what we did can just stuff it. Those who in eternal ingratitude want to blame the nasty old US for being so bad can stuff it as well. And let all the congregation say AMEN! Dropping the bombs on Japan was wise and the making of more nuclear weapons was even wiser. Thank goodness we have a government that wants to protect us against our enemies and thank goodness President Truman was not a coward. Thank goodness there is a separation between church and state!! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the least
Gary, I'm glad you cope so well on this earth. I want it to be as easy as possible and I want the least amount of trials too but that doesn't seem to be my lot. If life as a god is not as happy as I expect it should be than maybe I don't want to be a god. I'm just here because Heavenly Father expected it and I agreed to come here to grow. But this earth is a rotten place for me and if God judges me or takes away my opportunity for exaltation because that is how I feel and react or don't do all I could have done like refuse a calling or something else-- SO BE IT!!! Paul O ~the servant? On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:13:52 -0600 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you think the next life will be any easier I just think about what God must have been feeling as he was dealing death to his children during the Great Flood. Enoch tells us that God wept like we cannot imagine. Truly, to be God means we aren't just blissfully happy all the time, but we have all the range of God-like emotions, including sadness and sorrow. I thank God for this world. All of its struggles teach me so very much. I have learned patience and compassion through my trials, two things that I don't readily fall to in life. At the same time, some of the most wonderful experiences come to me because of this life. How could I despise a gift that God has given me? I mean, without this gift called mortality, I could never learn to be like God. There are many beautiful things around me. I am glad to be here to see the geese fly in from the Zoo, to feed in the fields behind my house. I am glad to see my wife get an A on her college class. I am glad to see a new member go to the temple. I am glad to see one of my children or grandchildren succeed at something. And I'm glad for the trials. They teach me so very much on how to be godlike. I've been out of work for a few months now, and though it drives me crazy at times, it has also given me much time with my wife-what a nice reward. I'll go when I'm called to go. If I have to live through the great disasters at the end, I'll do it with the knowledge that it will improve me and strengthen me. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul Osborne wrote: --- Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or the second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want to get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I wish the Lord would hurry it up and beam me up. I'm so sick of this world. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
No. I would say that person wasn't a true Muslim. Are not the Jews infidels? Paul O On Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:42:45 -0700 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Suppose I were to tell you one. What would be your reaction? Would you change your mind? Paul Osborne wrote: I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
And I think you may be a bloodthirsty man. I will not say definitely, however, because I am not supposed to judge mankind, Jesus is. You may very well have good motives, but I think you should watch them closely. Hey, at least I know how to win a war and that is the purpose of fighting a war. Can you imagine paying tribute to Japan today? You should count your lucky stars the bombs were dropped. I am. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
