[ZION] Introduction
Friends: Like me, some of you may suffer from increasingly short-term memory loss and others here don't know me at all. So an introduction. Perhaps the best personal introduction is embodied in a message I recently sent to the members of Mormon-L, responding to a request that I comment on President Hinckley's ego. -Original Message- From: Christian Kamler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mormon-l] General Conference Ø I wonder if Ron could comment on his impressions of the man with regard to ego. Some have felt there is some possibility of that. --Ron Scott Responds-- I'm not sure whether the last sentence above refers to President Hinckley's ego, or that some here felt I may be willing to share my impressions of him. I'll assume it's a reference to both. Some background: GBH was my dad's seminary teacher at South High; after serving a mission to Brazil (and Navy, for The Big WWII) my dad served under him on a team assigned to translate the DC, TPOGP, into Portuguese; GBH was a counselor in the stake presidency when our family moved to East Millcreek in 1955; my dad briefly tutored his oldest daughter, in chemistry; his middle daughter, Virginia (Virginia Hinckley Pearce), was my closest friend in high school and early college (a short-story I wrote about her in college launched my career as a writer) and, as a result, I have spent many hours in the Hinckley home, tended the younger Hinckley children; since college, as a journalist I have had several professional encounters (in NYC and SLC) with GBH, directly and indirectly; Wendall Ashton, GBH's life-long friend and former missionary companion and church public communications director, former publisher of the Deseret News, was a good friend of mine as well (his daughter was also a close friend in high school/college). So to the question: Does GBH have an ego? The answer: Don't we all? The implied question: Does GBH have an out-sized ego? The answer: No. Would he be delighted if the new conference center was renamed in his honor after he's gone? Assuming hes in a condition to be delighted about anything, I'd imagine the answer would be yes. I'd be delighted if the Powers That Be selected the alternative name: The Scott Conference Center -- in honor of my father, of course. Seriously, he has never impressed me as being arrogant (I can't say that of others I know in the FP and Q12). But determined and confidant and pragmatic? Yes. Absolutely yes. Does he have a testimony of God? Yes he does. I have heard him pray at home many times. No audience. It was like listening to one side of a telephone conversation between old friends. And, as I wrote above, he is pragmatic. Although I cant verify the authenticity of the account of his meeting in the temple with bishops and stake presidents, the report is consistent with what I sensed of his approach to the gospel. To wit and I paraphrase: take it one step at a time, apply what you know to be true hoping that it will lead you to the next discovery of truth; if the Joseph Smith story leaves you cold, focus on/apply what he taught it will make you a better man, father, citizen. I sensed that his pragmatic approach to the gospel may have been the root cause of his reaction to the Salamander letter. My words: he may have been so familiar with the hocus-pocus elements of our history, that he figured the forged (as it turned out) document could be yet another troublesome historical artifact. As he was more interested in the good the gospel does in the lives of people, he may have felt it was his responsibility to eliminate or suppress something that may turn away people who would otherwise benefit greatly by applying the gospel in their everyday lives. I seek not to justify his reaction to the letter it puzzled me as much as it did anyone however I do think pragmatism and doing the greater good may have driven and shaped his reaction. Some would love it if he would openly forsake the magical aspects of church history. Some would love it if more focus was placed on the practical aspects of Mormonism rather than the things that are harder to swallow. Of course some gripe that so much has been changed and ignored, that were getting rather too much like the Anglicans and Presbyterians. I mean, whod-a-thunk there would be an official lesson finally clarifying the grace business (I havent read the lesson, but Ill bet I can guess its central message: but for Christs freely-granted grace, we would be toast, no matter our good works). Liberals gripe that GBH is The Flack-meister, the personification of the organization man; fundamentalists and conservatives worry that he fits the description of a Korihor or Signaturi, the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing. And Mike Wallace and Larry King thought he was the closest thing to Jesus theyd ever interviewed. I like him. I especially
RE: [ZION] Wish List
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Wish List At 02:52 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express my condolences. I figured if we were making a wish list, though, I could wish as I wished... Stephen Well, if that's how we are wishing I'll bet Oliver Cowdery would be an interesting guy on Zion, and how about Nephi? Sam would be a super lurker. And what about J. Golden Kimball? And I think Esther and Ruth would be good. Tom Or how about Porter Rockwell, the Pratt brothers, and Heber C. Kimball? Unless things here have changed dramatically, I'd say J. Golden and the Brothers Pratt would last about a week here before someone wanted them bounced. They were known to stir the pot. It was a genetic thing with them. Believe me I know. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
-Original Message- From: Ronn! Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance At 04:19 AM 11/4/03 -0700, Tom Matkin wrote: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates That's what happens when a Native American with Jewish ancestry is working at a plastics plant and falls in to one of the vats . . . you get a laminated Lamanite . . . Trust Ronn! to finally make sense of what actually happened. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance - But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it? How they received a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and service and how they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than the sword of war and contention. The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the real truth. He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone, that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion. He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact that all men are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the gift of agency no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness. So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Tom Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd like to think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it. Which is not a bad place to be if you can do it. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wish List
Dear Val: Thanks for asking, Val. I still have your booklet around here, in my files. I'm glad the poems proved of use, of comfort to you. What happened to your husband? Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. And, I don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for each other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has something perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? Best, Ron Scott -Original Message- From: Valerie Nielsen Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Wish List Heck, Ron. I was just thinking about you the other day. Are you still writing poetry? I lost my husband last year, and I've been cleaning things out ever since. I found some of the poems that you had sent way back when. Re-reading them really struck a different chord with me. They mean much more to me now than they did then. I think last time I heard from you, Boston saints and the church were still fighting city hall about the temple and the height of the spire. So, how have you been? val On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:55:29 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Didn't know I was a foil. But, if I wasn't a kosher kind of guy I could go for a BLT. What is a BLT, anyway? BTW, Elmer, my youngest is dancing the Nutcracker. Don't know why JWR recruited me, but I've never known an invitation I didn't accept, especially from him. Ron Scott Still in Boston / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron
John: It was a tease, honest. I know I have to mind my Ps and Qs around you, because you know my stake president way too well -- The Desert Rat who couldn't stand the bone-chilling cold of New England, but inexplicably acclimated well to Alaska. Go figure. grin Ron P.S. Did I ever tell you that Bruce R. and family lived just down the street from my parents. One of his kids crushed my nose playing football. Devout old timers in my ward used to get worked up into a lather whenever he'd show-up for gospel doctrine or priesthood class (once or twice a year). Not all, not all by a long shot, agreed with everything that proceeded from his mouth...and the debates were lively, even contentious, and always enlightening. P.P.S. a BRM story, perhaps one I told here long ago, and I hope I get it right because I'm writing it from memory...and it's been a decade or so since I heard the story. Shortly after BRM died, his brother Oscar dropped by President Hinckley's office to inform him that Sister McConkie, Bruce's mother had finally passed away ( As I recall she died within a few weeks of Bruce's passing). Oscar said his mother knew it was her time. When I went to visit her the other day she was out by the curb waiting, her bags packed, he reported. I asked her what she was doing. She said, I'm waiting for Bruce ... he's been gone long enough to have become a big shot over there too and get special permission to come back and get me like he promised he would. Apparently, President Hinckley's laughter could be heard up and down the halls of 47EST. Ron -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Welcome to the List, Ron Ron Scott wrote: Yes, I'm still in Boston. Temple is built. I haven't been in it. And, I don't know how long I'll be around on Zion: we seem ill-suited for each other. I can not imagine why JWR asked me back. Perhaps he has something perverse up his sleeve. Ya think? There is no mystery, Ron. The list has been pretty dead lately, and I thought that you might liven things up a bit. You are not bashful about posting, and some difference of opinion stimulates discussion. The truth is, I really miss Marc Schindler. He wasn't quite as right-wing as some of us, and he was a major contributor on Zion for years. I was hoping that you might help make up for some of the loss I feel at his passing. Besides, I miss Day-One largely because it gave me a chance to rub shoulders with you. I've always enjoyed your online company, and I was hoping Mormon-L would be willing to share with Zion in this case. Anyway, rest assured that I didn't invite you here just to beat up on you, nor did I invite you here to drive off some of my best, long-term, online friends. I just thought we might have some interesting conversations. That is what these email lists are all about, the endless bull session. Hallelujah. Welcome to the list, Ron. I'm really glad you are here. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, Elder Nelson says: --- Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless... There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and unconditional concepts. As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making synoymns of unconditional love and divine blessings. So did Elder Nelson. You'd better careful who you're calling anti-Christ JWR for you're about to violate your own bylaws (grin): I think President Hinckley has, over the years, been quite clear that God has unconditional love for each of us. Which doesn't have a whole lot to do with how we're judged in the great-by-and-by in the sky. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. Ron, I searched the Church website and found 115 hits on unconditional love in General Conference, but they came from Maxwell, Ashton, Faust, Ballard, Nelson himself, and others but not one came from President Hinckley. Could you direct me to one of these many sources you speak of? My survey doesn't really prove anything because it was cursory. But I would be interested in learning how President Hinckley thinks of unconditional love. I'll dig some stuff out tomorrow. But not tonight. But, I'd guess that Maxwell, Ashton and Ballard would have similar comments. At least, I hope they would. Actually, I think this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. Nobody doubts that God loves each of his children more and more perfectly than any mortal creature could, even more than a mother loves her newborn baby. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that it is God's blessings that are conditional. Discussions like this are ALWAYS tempest in teapots. But, we do work out big time on the performance side of things, which is good, by and large. It is not so good when such exercises diminish the important role God love/charity/compassion plays in all of this. Worse, when one gets hung up on performance stuff one inevitably begins to measure one's own performance against another and pretty soon you have a bunch of holier thans parading their accomplishments, as opposed to recognizing that It is by the grace we are saved, after all we can do. Those may not be the exact words, but they do illustrate to me (I realize others interpret this scripture differently) that no matter how hard we work, and no matter how good we are, none of us will make it without Christ's grace. However, it might be useful to think of God's love as conditional inasmuch as the blessings most definitely are, and Elder Nelson makes a good point when he suggests that the phrase unconditional love might confuse some people into supposing that they can have the blessings without the repentance. And that simply is not true doctrine. Well, see, the paragraph above underscores my point. There is a difference between unconditional love and blessings. The former is freely given and is always available. The latter is contingent upon consistency and heeding His counsel. ANyway, I'm tired...and so til tomorrow. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Whom God hateth
-Original Message- From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Whom God hateth Still, God has seen fit to represent his feeling as hatred, so I don't think we have much business telling him he's wrong. In any case, I don't find God's hatred of the wicked to be a particularly ennobling concept, so I don't spend much time dwelling on it. After reading the scriptures you cited that God's hatred is of the deeds a man commits. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Whom God hateth
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Whom God hateth Stephen Beecroft wrote: Still, God has seen fit to represent his feeling as hatred, so I don't think we have much business telling him he's wrong. In any case, I don't find God's hatred of the wicked to be a particularly ennobling concept, so I don't spend much time dwelling on it. Well, I will not dwell on it, but I certainly don't want God hating me. I'm one of those unusual souls who is motivated by fear as well as by love. And I am genuinely afraid of making God angry with me. I certainly wouldn't want him to hate me. --JWR Well then, you'd better be nice to me!! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? Tell that to Mother Theresa. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think Elder Nelson got it wrong, merged two definitions that shouldn't have been merged. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A Question for George
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] A Question for George SNIP Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. Obviously we are quite free to BELIEVE whatever we choose to BELIEVE. Preaching false doctrine is another matter. More often than not false doctrine is an eye-of-the-beholder thing anyway and. In most (but not all) cases, BELIEF is not nearly as important as how one DOES. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] change the subject
-Original Message- From: Rusty Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:02 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] change the subject it appears to me, that this subject of adultery and repentance is one where we will just have to agree to dis-agree. I respectfully suggest a change of topic and propose the following to get things going that direction. the topic of believing things to be doctrine, when in fact they have no restored revelation/scripture basis was mentioned. I was intrigued by an article on the subject of Blood Atonement relative to capital punishment which appeared in the Church news recently. The gist of the article was that while many members of the church have held this to be doctrine for many years (myself included), the idea of Blood Atonement has no scriptural basis in fact. The article included an official statement to that effect and was issued in response to an inquirey to clarify the churches position on the subject of capital punishment. It appears to me, that this subject of Blood Atonement is one where we will just have to agree to dis-agree. Besides, if a statement defining the matter appeared in The Church News, what's left to discuss? All the thinking has been done. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that we avoid a discussion of Blood Atonement like we would the plague (the disease, not Camus'). If you want to propose a subject that is rife with contention, how about a no holds barred free-for-all on why Give Said The Little Stream is no longer sung by Primary age children. wink // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
George: I think it's safe to say at this point that Mother Theresa understands the nature of God quite well, probably better than any of us. While she lived on this earth she personified what God teaches. A refresher course from us therefore is quite unnecessary. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God. Could you arrange a meeting? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:05 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? Tell that to Mother Theresa. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Starts with G Green House Gas
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Starts with G Green House Gas Swans are Everything, Everything I Wish I Could Be by Tom Matkin, October 25, 2001 I'll bet a day will come some time When swans will be considered prime When long necked birds will rule the roost And man will be in deep decline. With human influ'nce thus reduced Economies will get a boost And green house gasses pass along Except for what a swan's produced. And finally that true swan song That one so simple, yet too long About the wind beneath your wings Won't seem so obviously wrong. So every time Bette Midler sings About the shadow her wing brings I think of swans and gas and things I think of swans and gas and things. Tom Interesting, moving. But Bette Midler on ZION? Oy vey!The last time I saw her live, she was strutting, singing and steaming before a crowd of nearly-nekkid men at The Continental Baths in Manhattan. The things that reporters have to endure to earn a living: sigh. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Definitions (was: RE: Eternal Life vs. Immortality)
-Original Message- From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Definitions (was: RE: Eternal Life vs. Immortality) SNIP I believe this is the case with God's hatred of sinful and unrepentant individuals. Some object to the term hate, thinking that somehow it lessens God's majesty or perfection to hate anyone or anything; or perhaps they're afraid that if perfect love does not preclude hatred, maybe God won't love them. As I wrote before, I don't understand the psychological reasons, even in myself, that people have such a strong reaction to the clear scriptural teaching that God's love is conditional. Perhaps because it's NOT CLEAR and flies in the face of all that the gospel teaches? SNIP As to your specific example of eternal life vs. immortality, I believe current prophetic usage of the terms has established that eternal life == exaltation, while immortality == resurrection. You may hold private definitions, of course, but in public conversation one generally reverts to the established meanings. Really? I've missed it. But, I suppose a rose by another name would smell as sweet. Maybe not. Depends on what's behind the other name. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A Question for George
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 6:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] A Question for George Ron Scott wrote: Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. Obviously we are quite free to BELIEVE whatever we choose to BELIEVE. Preaching false doctrine is another matter. More often than not false doctrine is an eye-of-the-beholder thing anyway and. In most (but not all) cases, BELIEF is not nearly as important as how one DOES. Well, of course you are right that actions speak louder than words, or even beliefs for that matter. But there is a connection between beliefs and actions. All actions originate as thoughts first. And beliefs, right or wrong, very much shape our thoughts. And it is hard to do what is right without first knowing what is right. --JWR Well, this could turn into an endless debate. So I'll try for some shortcuts. Short of taking a crash course in Mormon doctrine, there are many non-doctrinal ways one can *learn* what is right. For instance, Jimmy Carter learned correct *do good* principles in a Baptist Church in Plains. Richard Nixon was taught (apparently he didn't learn very well) similar principles in a Quaker meetinghouse and so on and so forth. Presumably they both believed similar basic principles, even though each of them applied what they'd learne very differently. To wit: DOING counts more than the learning, which I will modify this way: good learning often leads to good doing, but you never can be too sure. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) Ron Scott wrote: The scripture above deliniates how the the church organization should deal with adultery, IMO. Bear in mind that denying the Holy Ghost transforms one into a candidate for a bunk with the Sons of Perdition. And, we've been told that the Sons will be FEW IN NUMBER -- as few as the fingers on one's hand. I've heard this for year, but I suspect that it is folk doctrine. Can anyone actually authentic it with references to scripture or the utterances of the Presidents of the Church? --JWR Sure. Just as soon as I finish running down your request on GBH and unconditional love. What is this, a test? Your perverse way of getting me to read the scriptures and conference addresses (Mel will be proud of you, John. And, you know to whom he talks)? But if you've heard the SOP described that way for years, why don't you run it down yourself. You've got the same access I have to all the church infobases. Moreover, I think you misled me John when you claimed the volume on ZION was down. Are we having fun yet? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Ron Scott wrote: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR Don't know any widows who my ward that gives a mite, so I can respond specifically. The general answer to your question, however is: both. In my often incorrect opinion, that puts you in the position of making a judgement that you are wholly unqualified to make. Only God knows our hearts. There may be someone in your ward who is more righteous than Mother Theresa was. There would be no way to know, again in my humble and often worthless opinion. --JWR You solicited a judgement. Sure I knew it was bait. A possible sandbag. But what the hey, my day today was destroyed hours ago. So, based upon what I know, I rendered unto man what he requested: a well considered judgement. Had God asked the question, if I survived the shock it would cause I'd answer: You're asking me? You haven't become God yet, have you John? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Beholder of Zion
At the present, I'm editing some short stories, columns, poems etc. for an proposed anthology. I thought some of you may enjoy this short piece, relevant somewhat to our discussions today. A BEHOLDER OF ZION By RB Scott ©2003, 1986 Cee's love for her Manhattan was not unlike Jeds for his Salt Lake. As a youngster he lived near enough to walk to the center of the city after school and on weekends. Often, he would sequester himself in the back of the vast oval Tabernacle on Temple Square while Alexander Schreiner's fingers worked their magic over the five keyboards on the console of the massive pipe organ. At times it seemed as if the performance was intended specifically for Jed, hiding out, alone with his imagination in the upper balcony. There was something positively uplifting, calming about the haunting tones and accompanying reverberations that emanated from those towering Sequoia-like pipes. On occasion, he slipped up the tight circular stairs that led to the choir seats, which spread out like a hillside meadow between the forest of massive pipes and a furrowed valley of wooden pews, each one planed and sanded by the callused hands of Jeds ancestors and their brethren. Sitting on those benches, as he regularly had for general conference in April and October and, later, for concerts by the Utah Symphony Orchestra, he imagined Paradise, communing face-to-face with one departed ancestor or another, that God lived up the hillside, there in the hollows of those majestic, euphonious trunks of native pine. Four blocks from home, he played out a different, if equally fulfilling fantasy. On the gridiron in the stadium at the University of Utah: five seconds left in his mind, he would race down the field, cut left across the grain, dive as his outstretched arms crossed the goal line, snaring the pass with his fingertips. The fans would be going crazy as his teammates hoisted him onto their shoulders; he had lived righteously, fought the good fight, and now God, being just, had blessed him with a winning touchdown catch -- against BYU! Deeper into the sprawling campus he'd roam the university's old cavernous library, pulling books with strange-sounding titles from the shelves, selecting one or two of them to take to the his hideout in carrels sequestered, entombed deep in the stacks, reading for hours as if he was a diligent graduate student gathering research for a Master's thesis. It was there he read that babies need not be cut-out of their mother's bellies; that Benjamin Franklin had been an incorrigible womanizer; that his church's original prophet, Joseph Smith, opened a tavern in his family's manse in Nauvoo, Illinois, and that his successor, Brigham Young, and members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles once made regular use of spittoons, stationed like sentries at doorways leading to the holiest sections of the temple. And, that many actually thought New York City was a quite wonderful place, not at all the horrific den of thieves and murderers and hookers his parents and the local newspapers made it out to be. Right then and there he learned that perceptions often bear no resemblance to reality and that reality has everything to do with how one beholds it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1
Gary: Thank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself. But I'll add one thing: I have a hunch that in the final analysis her life-long goodness renders her doctrinal deficenies if not meanignless then very surmountable. But that's just one man's opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 The poorest widows in the USA that I've known are still much more comfortable than the average middle class person in Calcutta! Mother Theresa came from a decent, middle class family, but forsake it all to work with the poor. She risked all manner of diseases (Typhoid, Tetanus, Malaria, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, etc) as she went amongst the poorest in the city to aid them. You cannot imagine what true poverty is like, until you've gone to a truly poor country and spent time with the peoples there. The widow who gives her mite, is a righteous person, but she still hasn't given all of her time, talents, and energy to serve. And remember it was Christ who said that when we have done it unto one of the least of these, we've done it unto him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A Question for George
Are you suggesting the radical idea and true faith embodies good works performed joyfully? What a radical you are! -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] A Question for George And it goes beyond that, as well. Just doing what is right is not enough to entitle us to eternal life. We must do what is right, with the right intent. Christ, Paul and other prophets condemned the Jews and others for good actions without the right intentions behind the actions. We can't just say, Lord, Lord and do many good works. We must have the right intentions, as described in Moroni 7. In this manner, works must follow faith, the two together; otherwise they are dead by themselves. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Ron: Well, this could turn into an endless debate. So I'll try for some shortcuts. Short of taking a crash course in Mormon doctrine, there are many non-doctrinal ways one can *learn* what is right. For instance, Jimmy Carter learned correct *do good* principles in a Baptist Church in Plains. Richard Nixon was taught (apparently he didn't learn very well) similar principles in a Quaker meetinghouse and so on and so forth. Presumably they both believed similar basic principles, even though each of them applied what they'd learne very differently. To wit: DOING counts more than the learning, which I will modify this way: good learning often leads to good doing, but you never can be too sure. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Ron Scott wrote: You solicited a judgement. Sure I knew it was bait. A possible sandbag. But what the hey, my day today was destroyed hours ago. So, based upon what I know, I rendered unto man what he requested: a well considered judgement. JWR commented-- Gosh Ron, what ruined your day if I'm not being too nosy to ask? Regardless, I hope that tomorrow is better. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help with either day. Destroyed was a figure of speech, an exaggeration. I'm trying to edit and rewrite stuff while the blasted new e-mail prompt keeps dinging with yet another message from ZION and that list that cannot be named here grin not to mention my own group of 350 -- count'em-- friends from high school/college. Mormons talk too much, I think. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Ron Scott wrote: Thank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself. But I'll add one thing: I have a hunch that in the final analysis her life-long goodness renders her doctrinal deficenies if not meanignless then very surmountable. But that's just one man's opinion. Who knows, maybe she'll accept the gospel in the spirit world. --JWR Seems to me that's exactly what her good works and joyful giving suggest she did in this life. Now, all she has to do is fill out the forms and wait a hundred years for some mortal Mormon to perform the formalities. Meantime, I also have hunch God won't be holding her back. But it's just a hunch. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Christlike Love and Devoted Service
That one I'll give you.. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Christlike Love and Devoted Service What is the greater feat, feeding the starving of India, or putting up with John W. Redelfs? Now there is a challenging question. lol Perhaps my wife is the most Christlike woman on earth. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Love is...
One of my favorites too, ambiguous though it may be, amiguous as love is. -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Love is... One of my favorite characterizations of love is not scriptural or doctrinal, but poetic. Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove: O no! it is an ever-fixed mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wandering bark, Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come: Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom. If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. -- William Shakespeare // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1
Doubt she'll need much preaching to. But, the hoops, yes, and the 100 year wait, unless she has a relative to do the work for her. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Absolutely true, but she will still need a teacher. She will still have to listen to the missionaries and accept the truth. Short cuts? Maybe, but she will still have to go through the hoops. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Gary: Thank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself. But I'll add one thing: I have a hunch that in the final analysis her life-long goodness renders her doctrinal deficenies if not meanignless then very surmountable. But that's just one man's opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 The poorest widows in the USA that I've known are still much more comfortable than the average middle class person in Calcutta! Mother Theresa came from a decent, middle class family, but forsake it all to work with the poor. She risked all manner of diseases (Typhoid, Tetanus, Malaria, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, etc) as she went amongst the poorest in the city to aid them. You cannot imagine what true poverty is like, until you've gone to a truly poor country and spent time with the peoples there. The widow who gives her mite, is a righteous person, but she still hasn't given all of her time, talents, and energy to serve. And remember it was Christ who said that when we have done it unto one of the least of these, we've done it unto him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Downeast (Was: Official doctrine...)
-Original Message- From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 At 10:23 PM 11/5/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Mormons talk too much, I think. Ayup! Till the wordy (BTW, for some of you, that's down-east for yes) And, while the meaning of ayup or ayah (said while sucking gobs of air down the throat) may be obvious to those familiar with St. Gharrgian (the dialect spoken in the towns south of Cedar), it is the easiest to understand word in the lexicon of true Downeasters (people living east-northeast of Bangor, Maine). Whilst a missionary I taught a older fellow (I guess he was about as old as I am now, sigh) from way downeast. Frank Carkin. Quite poor, shabby clothes, gnarly hands, missing teeth, poorer than anyone I'd encountered previously. He was, as we said at the time, golden. And, though he understood us perfectly, his spoken words confounded us ( I worried that I was going deaf, or my synapses were misfiring, or that we'd need to gind a translator-- I kid you not). But his spirit did not: he prayed openly and passionately at the close of the first discussion; had read half the Book of Mormon BEFORE we returned the next night to teach him about it (2nd discussion). And, when he was baptized a few weeks later, he showed up dragging, literally, a gunnysack full of coins he'd been putting aside as tithing over the course of the past year. It was something. I was awed by him then and I am again recalling his face, his faith, his humility. While refreshing my memory of Brother Carkin, I also came across this entry in my missionary journal, written around the time we taught him and a couple of families, all of which were baptized: I wish I had as much faith as some of the people we are teaching. It really makes me feel guilty because I'm the teacher, the one who should have the most faith of all, but yet I don't. I'll continue to work on it. Interesting, revealing observation -- to me, at least. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 03:40 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 10:17 AM 11/5/2003, you wrote: At 04:50 PM 11/5/2003 +, Gary wrote: What is important is that we don't twist that love as did Nehor and as do many today, to excuse their sinful natures. Has anyone taken the time and energy to look at the Anti-Christs in the Book of Mormon, such as Nehors, Korihor and company, to see how their philosophies play out in today's society? Since there's nothing new under the sun, I suspect that all of these abominations appear today, probably rather thinly cloaked, in the hype of today's cool thinking. President Benson thought so. For instance, in his famous talk (Which he gave over 37 different times. Not only in General Conference but to Regional Conferences, Regional Representatives Seminars, reprinted as the 1st Presidency Message in the Ensign, and in various wards he visited) entitled, The Book of Mormon is the Word of God, he stated that the second major purpose of the Book of Mormon was to expose, the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time. I, for one, cannot read Alma chapter 30 without coming to the same conclusion that President Benson did. Korihor was exhibiting many of the philosophies we here about today. Such as atheism, secular humanism, and survival of the fittest. I'd guess it would be wiser of me to withhold comment on a topic so potentially explosive here. So I will demur. But for me, and perhaps a few others, please refine your alarm. Give us specific examples of the kinds of apostates we have today (as foretold in the Book of Mormon) and how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Ron Scott Sure. I'll try. Korihor typifies those today who practice no religion at all. Man doesn't need God because there isn't one. Man only prospers according to his own genius or abilities. Whether practiced by extreme capitalists (Corporate raiders come to mind) or Marxists (A progressive society which will eventually evolve into a communist utopia). Nehor typifies those who proclaim for an easy religion. Man doesn't really need to do anything other than profess a vague awareness or belief in God. The example of the Zoramites typify those who selfish-hypocritical religionists. God has chosen them to be better than others. I'd say that the Book of Mormon does a pretty good job of speaking out against those who proclaim a return to naturalism, social or moral relativism, hedonism and the idea prevalent in today's society that man only achieves anything through his own efforts and abilities. So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Definitions
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Definitions At 07:22 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a perfected state is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. Well, again it might be a matter of semantics, but what about a lust for righteousness? Said Brother Young to his wife on their wedding night: I have a righteous lust for your temple of the Lord. That kind lust for righteousness? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? Although my memory is faulty, I recall a claim that we've lost or are losing our because of the rise of secular humanism, agnosticism, communism, athieism all the old bugaboos...when, in fact, the stats (I saw them a couple of weeks ago) suggest just the opposite. Therefore, your fear of a resurgence is not supported by history. We've been there, done that and survived quite nicely. To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Definitions
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Definitions At 07:56 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Definitions At 07:22 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a perfected state is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. Well, again it might be a matter of semantics, but what about a lust for righteousness? Said Brother Young to his wife on their wedding night: I have a righteous lust for your temple of the Lord. That kind lust for righteousness? Ron Would that be Brother Steve or Brigham? Actually, the last name was Jones. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 10:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 08:09 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? Although my memory is faulty, I recall a claim that we've lost or are losing our because of the rise of secular humanism, agnosticism, communism, athieism all the old bugaboos...when, in fact, the stats (I saw them a couple of weeks ago) suggest just the opposite. Therefore, your fear of a resurgence is not supported by history. We've been there, done that and survived quite nicely. To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott Actually, I think history supports me quite nicely. Yes? How? And I'll take the John Birchian comment as a compliment--thank you. I figured you would. You'e welcome. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion
The piece was extracted adapted from a chapter in a (forthcoming) novel. I'd say you're quite the perceptive reader. And, thanks so much for commenting. Ron -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion Ron, I'm not familiar with your work, but I get the feeling from this short piece that the boy didn't really love SLC. At least not with his whole heart. It is fascinating to him, eating at him, part of him, betraying him, shaping him, annoying him and clinging to him like a familiar odor, but he doesn't seem to love it. It's full of memories bigger than life, distorted by a confusion of perception and reality, and he can't quite ever seem to square the circle in his own mind. He's a *beholder* of Zion, after all, not a *belonger*. Of course maybe that was the point, I have no idea what Cee's love of Manhattan was really like either. Tom -Original Message- From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 5, 2003 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Beholder of Zion At the present, I'm editing some short stories, columns, poems etc. for an proposed anthology. I thought some of you may enjoy this short piece, relevant somewhat to our discussions today. A BEHOLDER OF ZION By RB Scott C2003, 1986 Cee's love for her Manhattan was not unlike Jed's for his Salt Lake. As a youngster he lived near enough to walk to the center of the city after school and on weekends. Often, he would sequester himself in the back of the vast oval Tabernacle on Temple Square while Alexander Schreiner's fingers worked their magic over the five keyboards on the console of the massive pipe organ. At times it seemed as if the performance was intended specifically for Jed, hiding out, alone with his imagination in the upper balcony. There was something positively uplifting, calming about the haunting tones and accompanying reverberations that emanated from those towering Sequoia-like pipes. On occasion, he slipped up the tight circular stairs that led to the choir seats, which spread out like a hillside meadow between the forest of massive pipes and a furrowed valley of wooden pews, each one planed and sanded by the callused hands of Jed's ancestors and their brethren. Sitting on those benches, as he regularly had for general conference in April and October and, later, for concerts by the Utah Symphony Orchestra, he imagined Paradise, communing face-to-face with one departed ancestor or another, that God lived up the hillside, there in the hollows of those majestic, euphonious trunks of native pine. Four blocks from home, he played out a different, if equally fulfilling fantasy. On the gridiron in the stadium at the University of Utah: five seconds left in his mind, he would race down the field, cut left across the grain, dive as his outstretched arms crossed the goal line, snaring the pass with his fingertips. The fans would be going crazy as his teammates hoisted him onto their shoulders; he had lived righteously, fought the good fight, and now God, being just, had blessed him with a winning touchdown catch -- against BYU! Deeper into the sprawling campus he'd roam the university's old cavernous library, pulling books with strange-sounding titles from the shelves, selecting one or two of them to take to the his hideout in carrels sequestered, entombed deep in the stacks, reading for hours as if he was a diligent graduate student gathering research for a Master's thesis. It was there he read that babies need not be cut-out of their mother's bellies; that Benjamin Franklin had been an incorrigible womanizer; that his church's original prophet, Joseph Smith, opened a tavern in his family's manse in Nauvoo, Illinois, and that his successor, Brigham Young, and members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles once made regular use of spittoons, stationed like sentries at doorways leading to the holiest sections of the temple. And, that many actually thought New York City was a quite wonderful place, not at all the horrific den of thieves and murderers and hookers his parents and the local newspapers made it out to be. Right then and there he learned that perceptions often bear no resemblance to reality and that reality has everything to do with how one beholds it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read
RE: [ZION] Starts with G Giving
You're giving spirit is, ah, catching. -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 10:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Starts with G Giving This isn't the way I feel today, but it's a sentiment that I understand about giving. Sonnet 180 (I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath) By Tom Matkin, June 6, 2002 I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath My senses stuffed with wool and fire in one A victim of some tiny microbe's wrath My goose is more than cooked, it's overdone. I'm tippy, wonky, staggering and faint I'm cloudy, foggy, slow and overcast I hesitate to make this a complaint But now my eyes aren't focusing, they're glassed! I could go home and take a proper pill To put an end to notice of my pain But if I did then how could I fulfill My duty to extend this flu-like chain? Tis better to be giving than to get And so I'll put some others in my debt. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
Kent: Interesting and provocative commentary. But, I will point out that my own children attended public schools in Connecticut from pre-k through high school in Wesport, Ct., arguably the most liberal school system in the state (as you doubtlessly know, Kent). They were NOT exposed to the things your children were (apparently). Moreover, whenever sensitive information was to be discussed (sex, pre-marital sex, birth control etc.) the schools ALWAYS sent home notes to parents advising them of the forthcoming lessons and of their rights to forego these sessions (many did). As for teaching values in the schools: I attended a number of the open circle session myself and monitored them thereafter. I found that they focused mainly on helping children resolve issues with their peers: teaching tolerance and respect for others. In short, I had no problem with the system in Connecticut. However, it does make me a little edgy that at my daughters fancy/schmancy private elementary school in Massachusetts one does not often hear real Christmas carols being sung. Lots of schmaltzy Christmas music, but few real ones. That is changing, happily as people get more comfortable with the notion that diversity and tolerance do not need to add-up to mush music and even mushier religions. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: R. Kent Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism Kent Francis responds with a personal example: Let me introduce myself. My name is Kent Francis and I currently live in West Jordan, Utah. I grew up in the Bay Area of California and graduated with a Masters Degree in Cybernetics from San Jose State. I worked for IBM and Control Data for 18 years and in 1984 established my own computer software company. I have 5 children (the youngest is now 28 and so the fight has moved on to others). I offer my experiences in the hope that they may be useful to you in your attempt to teach your children proper principles, and your fight to protect them from people in the world who might do them harm. Sixteen years ago I wrote the following letter to all my children's teachers as a result of the pervasive influence of Humanism in their schools, and the destructive techniques that were being used to destroy the value system that we had tried so very hard to teach them. Dear Teacher, When we lived in California and Connecticut we were exposed to a new religion called Humanism. I say Religion because on at least two occasions the Supreme Court of the United States has judged it as such. It has a Manifesto I and II (what we would call Articles of Faith which states that there is no such thing as God, the soul, or immortal salvation, and that the Judeo-Christian religions and ethic systems are obstacles to human progress. In the areas of sexuality, they believe that intolerant attitudes cultivated by orthodox religions unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. Mankind is the result of animal evolution and the ethic system which serves him best is one created by the principles of scientific method; there is no right or wrong, life is situational. In order to spread the concepts of their religion, they have turned to the secular channels of information; especially the educational system. Their champions are well known. John Dewey and Horace Mann, the fathers of modern education, B.F. Skinner of operant conditioning fame, J.L. Moreno who designed socioprogams, role playing and psychodrama, Maslow who created the Third Force Psychology, Dr. Carl Rogers of sensitivity training fame, Dr. Lester Kirkendall of SIECUS, Dr. Albert Ellis a leading champion of pre-marital sex, Dr. William Glasser of Reality Therapy and Schools Without Failure programs, Jerome Bruner author of the M:ACOS program, and Louis Raths and Dr. Sidney Simon - designers and promoters of Values Clarification and Values Changing curriculum. Lately the darling of educational circles is Lawrence Kohlberg of Harvard and the Center for Moral Education who calls for cognitive moral development. Because our children couldn't cope with the brainwashing, we gave up our career and retreated to the religious and conservative Utah, only to find that the local emphasis on education had allowed this atheistic religion and its values modification techniques to ingratiate itself with many of the unsuspecting educators. We were, however, pleased to learn that the Utah education code 53-14-4 and 10 specifically prohibits the teaching of atheistic religion and requires teachers to teach honesty, morality, courtesy, obedience to law, respect for parents and homes, respect for the constitutions of the US and Utah, the value of honest labor, and upright citizenship. Also it states that the importance
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR No sarcasm. It will provoke a response, however. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Was BRM a prophet? Actually, I continue to respect the words of dead prophets, but I frame them in the context today. In doing so, I often discover that much of what they had to say had revealed more of about their personal opinions than church doctrine. I'd say this was the case for every single prophet, beginning with Joseph Smith. But, that's just my opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Speaking of dead prophets, which are we to disdain more, Ezra Taft Benson or Bruce R. McConkie? And after President Hinckley dies are we to discount his words immediately, or should we wait an appropriate mourning period? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 12:48 PM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 11:43 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR More like a whole symphony grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society (See DC 1:14-16; 84:49-53). It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world (see Ether 8:18-25). - President Ezra Taft Benson General Conference, October 1988 Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Oh--Benson not good enough for you? Well, how about the pattern found in the following scriptures then: President Benson was good enough for me. His politics were not. For additional comments, see my response to your fellow traveler. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
No, Stephen, you did not misinterpret my comments. I did know Reed Benson. He did try to capitalize on his connection to his father and he succeeded from time to time. Frankly, it's my opinion when the unexpergated history of the church is written, it will be shown that Reed Benson's skillful manipulations darn near cost his father his father big time. I have great respect for President Benson even though I neither agree with his politics nor with the way he sometimes used the pulpit to advance his political beliefs. It is tragic than most people remember President Benson's arch politics more than they do the good he did for the church as an apostle. But I understand why that is the case. It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love -Ron- Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? I don't understand this. Why would the prophet's words in General Conference constitute the Church of Ezra? And why would Reed Benson be called its profit? While I don't know Reed Benson personally, I have had a few dealings with him, and he has always struck me as being very honest and open, not someone who goes about seeking to cash in on his father's name or position. Or have I misinterpreted your comments? Sorry if that's the case; maybe you can clarify them for me. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
For practical purposes, I'll stick with my previous statement -- one man, one woman -- if you don't mind. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. Between man and woman. According to DC 132, plural marriage is OK as long as it is authorized by the priesthood. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION Hey Ron, are you familiar with THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom? I've been reading it the last couple of weeks, and I find it fascinating that a Gentile (actually, he is an unbelieving Jew) would state a conviction that Once a Jew, always a Jew. HE is not a gentile. A secular Jew perhaps. But a Jew. 1. The Latter-day Saints will resume the practice of plural marriage in the first half of the 21st century. Oy vey! I don't see any of current crop of leaders doing that, even if ACLU convinces the Supreme Court that monogamy infringes upon the right to freely practice one's religion. 2. The Latter-day Saints will establish a sovereign state in either part or all of the United States at about the same time. You mean like Vatican City? A possibility, but unlikely. If you're talking something grander, phooey. President Hinckley just got us into the main stream, more or less. I can't imagine that anyone at the top wants out. I have long felt that this would happen. I find it remarkable that such a renowned and worldly scholar would have come to the same conclusion. What do you think? If that's what he concluded, I think he's been spending way to much of his time talking to crackpots in mountains of Idaho and the outback in central Utah. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 03:37 PM 11/6/2003, Ron Scott wrote: President Benson was good enough for me. His politics were not. For additional comments, see my response to your fellow traveler. Ron Scott That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about newborn mice being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or something to that effect. Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't commies and pinkos in every commode and closet? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? I'm pretty sure there are some Korihors and wolves in sheep's clothing. Ezra Taft Benson said so. grin --JWR He did? When? Was he eyeballing his son? grin RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now John. Help me understand what you are trying to say? Tom ROTFL. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
-Original Message-
From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
Ron Scott wrote:
That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and
knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about
newborn mice
being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he
discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or
something to that effect.
---
Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't commies and
pinkos in every commode and closet?
Personally, I've moved away from politics and further into the gospel. I
know that the commies and pinkos are still there, I just don't
care as much
what they are doing. Maybe you could fill me in, do you think? Not that
you were ever a commie or a pinko.
And if you go looking for commies and pinkos you still might be able to
find some of them if you look in the right places:
Says you!!!
China {For now}
North Korea {For now}
Cuba { Not many, not long}
Vietnam {A few}
Harvard {in your mind, perhaps}
Yale {Oh please!}
???
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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RE: [ZION] Far Right In the Church
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Far Right In the Church Tom Matkin wrote: Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now John. Help me understand what you are trying to say? I was responding to a statement by Ron that the far right members listened ONLY to President Ezra Taft Benson. I know such, but they are former Mormons who have left the Church. Those who have remained also hearken to the other prophets such as President Hinckley, Elder Packer, etc. I think you missed the word such in the above quotation. I'm not denying that there are far right in the Church. I am one myself. But such as hearken ONLY to Ezra Taft Benson I am not, nor do I know others who retain their membership. Interesting and revealing response. Freud would have a field day with you. Like so many of the far right we have remained, of couple GBH and BKP, as if the latter makes the former tolerable for now, ignorinng, advertantly or inadvertantly, the fact that President Monson is next in line. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Elder Nelson and Unconditional Love
Still occurs if you happen to live along the Wasatch Front. Not as often as it used to... -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson and Unconditional Love It must have been fun during the days when people could actually commune with the apostles and prophet of the church. Even when one could write a letter that must have also been done. Stacy. At 03:34 AM 11/06/2003 +, you wrote: My first assumption about Elder Nelson's article on Unconditional Love is that where I find problems, they are my own. I assume, absent sufficient evidence to the contrary, that Elder Nelson knows whereof he speaks, on this and many other subjects upon which he is called to teach and bear testimony before the Church. It strikes me that any posture short of this, lacking the opportunity for personal dialog with Elder Nelson, is something less than charitable. Little doubt, Elder Nelson would thoroughly enjoy the luxury to entertain open critical review of his article. We ought to invite him to join the discussion on this list. Perhaps he is up to debate and could appropriately qualify and defend his ideas. Since he cannot do so, it seems only fitting to leave to him the benefit of doubt. / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
-Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I believe we have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding many will go telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to repent in order for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their sins. Aren't I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through eternity with their sins will go to perdition? Stacy. You are not right. About anything listed above. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours
She lives in Newton? Where do the attend church? Weston or Cambridge? Is her husband at Tufts or BC (didn't know BC had a dental school). Ron -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 4:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Wee Small Hours You are up awfully early in the morning for a Bostonian, aren't you, Ron? It's only a quarter past midnight here in the wilds of Alaska. My oldest girl, Sara, lives there in Boston, Newton actually. Her husband is attending dental school there. BTW, over the years I've been discussing politics on the Internet I've become increasingly confused to the point that I doubt if many of your stereotypes would apply. Perhaps we could discuss the evolution of my political thought sometime. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Far Right In the Church
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 4:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Far Right In the Church Ron Scott wrote: Interesting and revealing response. Freud would have a field day with you. Like so many of the far right we have remained, of couple GBH and BKP, as if the latter makes the former tolerable for now, ignorinng, advertantly or inadvertantly, the fact that President Monson is next in line. And I will be thrilled to sustain him as our new Prophet and President if he outlives President Hinckley, something that is by no means certain. Either of them could die of old age tomorrow, as could Elder Packer, for that matter. I don't know what order they will die in. Do you? --JWR Nope, I don't. And even though President Kimball said he was bound and determined to outlive President Benson, it didn't happen. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 4:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours Ron Scott wrote: She lives in Newton? Where do the attend church? Weston or Cambridge? Is her husband at Tufts or BC (didn't know BC had a dental school). I don't know, Ron. I get the schools back there are mixed up. I just fired off an email to my daughter asking her. I'm embarrassed that I have to ask. --JWR If she lives in Newton and attends the regular ward for the city (as opposed to the many student wards in Cambridge) she goes ( I assume, given her relationship to you, that she's active) to church in Weston, where I'm supposed to. Her bishop is a very good friend, Cary Hopkins. I live in a small town that is technically part of the Weston First Ward. However, because we're the only Mormon family in a tiny town (Pop. 4,000) that is on the border between the two wards we have been given the option of choosing the First or Second Ward (the one that includes the city of Newton). Both meet in the same building, the stake center for the Boston Stake. My youngest daughter attends school in Chestnut Hill, a section of Newton: hence I am in your daughter's neighborhood, more or less, every single day. What does she do while her husband attends dental school? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
-Original Message-
From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 3:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
-Original Message-
From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos
Ron Scott wrote:
That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and
knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about
newborn mice
being good communists. When the commissar come back a few
weeks later he
discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or
something to that effect.
---
Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't
commies and
pinkos in every commode and closet?
Personally, I've moved away from politics and further into the
gospel. I
know that the commies and pinkos are still there, I just don't
care as much
what they are doing. Maybe you could fill me in, do you think?
Not that
you were ever a commie or a pinko.
And if you go looking for commies and pinkos you still might be able to
find some of them if you look in the right places:
Says you!!!
China {For now}
North Korea {For now}
Cuba { Not many, not long}
Vietnam {A few}
Harvard {in your mind, perhaps}
Yale {Oh please!}
???
P.S. You forgot:
The New York Times
Washington Post
The Council on Foreign Relations
The White House
The CIA and FBI
Rockefeller Center
Synagogues everywhere
The Mormon Tab (those musicians are indeed quite goofy and unreliable)
The Unversity of Utah
The Church Office Building
47 EST (naw, the Lord would never allow it)
BYU (naw, not as long as Lou's alive, right?)
//
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/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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RE: [ZION] HELP
Thanks Sandy. Friends: For a number of pressing reasons, I am retreating (for the time being) to to lurkdom, read at the website only-- no email. If you wish my response on a particular subject, please cc me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Be well and be careful. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours
-Original Message- From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Wee Small Hours At 05:48 AM 11/7/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: My youngest daughter attends school in Chestnut Hill, a section of Newton: Ah, yes, nice school. We (meaning Ithaca Ballet**) have one of our girls gong there this year, Dasha Kittridge, as a drama major. A marvelously talented and beautiful young lady. Chestnut Hill? Drama major? CHS is a private elementary school. I wasn't aware we had drama majors. Might you be thinking of a college in Chestnut Hill? Till ** (Schindlerian footnote) I decided the best way to repay all the kindness they did for my family was to serve on the board of directors AFTER my kids were out of there. They've gone and made me president now, which means I get to control how long (or short) the meetings are. So I still have a direct interest in the students there. Then you've probably heard that, for now at least, The Wang Center has booted out The Nutcracker beginning next Christmas, 2004. A touring company of the Radio City Rockettes has taken the dates. The city is in an uproar, as you might imagine. I mean, Boston ain't exactly Las Vegas. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
