from:"Marc A. Schindler"

Thanks for the references. I had in mind only one, and I'm too lazy to go look it
up, but I'm sure it's well known to list members, and that's BRMcC's famous Seven
Deadly Heresies talk. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship
Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father?

Perhaps we should separate the terms pray to and worship.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Paul Osborne favored us with:
 I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I
 think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not
 just in name only:
 
 They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15
 
 President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ.
 We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to
 which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our
 Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal
 life.
 
 Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign,
 Nov. 1982, 69
 I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are
 Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ
 
 Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5
 Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ.
 
 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he
 saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6
 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked,
 and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I
 saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24
 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in
 Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore
 ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind,
 and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise
 be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29

 I just love it when you cite sources, Paul.  It adds so much more
 credibility to your opinions. I commend the practice to all.  --JWR

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship the
highest entity or concept we can come up with. We're under compulsion only to
worship God.

George Cobabe wrote:

 I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments.

 My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the
 highest entity or concept we could come up with.  It was a rhetorical
 question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was
 anything more powerful than God, even law.

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law

 George Cobabe wrote:

  You are absolutely right.  However we are to worship God as the supreme
  entity.  How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and
  therefore not the supreme entity.
 

 A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith
 said:
 This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased,
 but
 to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we
 see
 every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the
 airplane, the
 voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are
 thousands
 of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers
 could
 they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into
 wine,
 raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the
 setting
 aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days
 or now,
 is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing
 of the
 sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may
 be
 that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because
 we do
 not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it.
 Our
 Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has
 learned of
 many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for
 the
 critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God
 have
 been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand.
 (M:HOD)

 
  That is my point.  That there is no higher entity, not even law.
 
  I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is
 a
  higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of
  those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO
 
  George
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
 
  I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We
  have been
  told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the
  Father.
  Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the
  Romans
  who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology.
 
  George Cobabe wrote:
 
   Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it
  is
   the law we should worship.  If we choose to do so it is then we become
  more
   like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes
   something without form, no body, parts, or passions.  The Law can fill
 the
   universe and yet dwell in our hearts.  We become more like Jews who know
   little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the
   smallest point of law and behavior.
  
   Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that
   belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship.
  
   I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with
  them,
   so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest.
 Forgive
   me of my indiscretion if my words give offense.
  
   George
  
   - Original Message -
   From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM
   Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law
  
   
Another interesting reference to this question--
   
God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light
 and
all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a
law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the
which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is
 no
space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is
given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and
conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He
comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
 things
are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things,
 and
is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things

Re: [ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

In fact, their clusters are in different areas than what we would call racial.
That is, there are several from different parts of Africa, for instance, as well
as a totally different group for Melanesians (who used to be considered blacks by
LDS until DOM's time).

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Stephen Beecroft wrote:
 ---
 What?! Is this suggesting the outrageous proposition that
 commonly-defined racial characteristics are gasp! genetically based?
 ---

 Spare your outrage, Stephen.

 The authors of the study _studiously_ refrain from using the term
 race.  Instead they characterize unique population groups as
 clusters.  One cannot help but notice, however, that the clusters
 indicated on the map correspond rather remarkably with traditional
 racial demographics, but that's beside the politically-correct point.

 One wonders if the authors might have been injured by such strenuous
 bending-over-backwards exertions.  :-

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

I certainly wouldn't object to that.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I
 was
 unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more
 tightly
 and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ.

 Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I
 said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to
 Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the
 church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private
 that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ
 alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This
 tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every
 prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there
 too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his
 atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had
 this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just
 wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's
 too sacred.

 Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm
 not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may
 according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't
 like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq

Why? Since when do those who prefer peace bear responsibility for others' actions?
Do we also bear the responsibility for the thousands of people who have died in
Kashmir simply because they were trying to exercise their right to a free vote in
a democracy (India) from the hands of those who would take this away from them
(Islamist groups based in Pakistan)?

Again I ask (and keep in mind it's a rhetorical question -- I'm not suggesting we
invade Pakistan), since every reason the US and the UK have given for the
necessity of armed conflict with Iraq applies in spades to Pakistan, why aren't we
talking about the invasion of Pakistan?

Are we also to be held responsible for the deaths in China due to the astonishing
record of the communist government there over the past half century?

Jon Spencer wrote:

 This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
 meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
 support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
 smart weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But for
 those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
 on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in
 with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed.

 Jon

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq

  Saddam will go.
  
  And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
 
 
  You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
  the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
  situation.
 
  Paul O
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Dr Red Green was right all along

Nobody seems to know for sure, but it's believed that when you rip the duct tape
off (ouch!) it brings with it the viruses that are believed to be causing the wart
in the first place. I'm sure it was one of these accidental things that happen in
medical research sometimes, and get written up in Stitches, a monthly journal
of the Canadian Medical Association which is a humour magazine for doctors.

One night in ER.
Male patient limps in with a very pained look on his face.
Nurse: What seems to be the matter?
Patient: Well, I, er, um, it's kinda hard to explain. Could I just explain it to
a doctor?
Nurse: Sure. Dr. Smith is on call. She'll see you shortly.
Patient: Oh, man. Don't you have any other doctors?

Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:

OK--my question--how DOES the duct tape work on a wart?

val

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:20:14 + Chet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Marc A. Schindler wrote:
Duct tape really is good for you...

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-3
1E9EA95D88E}

The link has changed to

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-9
3A3-31E9EA95D88E

It may have changed again by now.

*jeep!
--Chet
Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly
you
are doing the impossible.
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Iraq

Larry, here's another quote from you, this time from The Economist
(14/12/02). It's also pretty clear and unequivocal in its language. This
is from an article on p. 40, called Lethal poker:

This partly explains why America, controversially, arranged for the
circulating copy of the dossier [that Iraq prepared] (the other copy
stays with the UN monitoring mission) to be taken straight to Washington
rather than distributed to all 15 Security Council members. The American
authorities then copied the documents for the other four permanent
members, who agreed that the ten rotating members of the council would
receive expurgated versions.

Pretty clear: the US abrogated to itself the right to look at the
documents first, even before the other 4 permanent members of the
Security Council, let alone the full SC.

You can refuse to discuss it if you wish, but I don't see how you can
insist on being right in face of such clear facts.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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[ZION] trolling in the Xorg

This is getting addictive. Someone asked if Randy Bachman is still an
active LDS. They thought his Christmas takeoff of Takin' Care of
Business was shallow. Of course, it's a no-win situation -- if he's
inactive, that's good, if he's active, then he's shallow. My response:
==
Just FYI, both Randy Bachman, and his son, Tal, are active LDS. Tal
lives in Utah with his mother (ex-wife of Randy), and Randy splits his
time between a house in Bellingham WA (basically a suburb of Vancouver
BC as much as it is an exurb of Seattle WA) and his home town of
Winnipeg MB (my birthplace, too, as it happens). In his latest
interview, which iirc was in the [Toronto] Globe and Mail, as well as
the Southam chain (our major national chain of broadsheet papers) given
as part of a Guess Who revival tour of Canada, he indicated that he is
still an active LDS.

So I'm afraid that in the Morgue (aka the Xorg) that makes him shallow.
Sorry.

Marc Schindler
In the clear air of Canuckistan

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

Coincidence that this appeared in today's issue of Science, one of the
two best-known and most prestigious general science journals in the
anglophone world (Rosenberg, et. al. Science:298, 20/12/2002:2381). The
article is called Genetic Structure of Human Populations by a
multinational team from the US, Russia and France. I have the full
article (as well as the editorial introduction) but here's the abstract:

We studied human population structure using genotypes at 377 autosomal
microstallite loci in 1056 individuals from 52 populations.
Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of
genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to
5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of
individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which
correspond to major geographic regions, and subsclusters that often
correspond to individual populations. General agreement of genetic and
predefined populations suggests that self-reported ancestry can
facilitate assessments of epidemiological risks but does not obviate the
need to use genetic information in genetic associations studies.

I'm the first to admit I'm not a geneticist, and much of this article is
over my head. It *seems* to be saying that because there is far more
genetic variation within a given population than there is between
populations, that the use of genetics for the study of human migratory
patterns is only of very weak usefulness. That is, within a given area,
you could often separate populations, but if you tried to compare
populations from one area to populations in another area, there were
rarely any correlations. I could see no correlation between East Asian
and American populations, for instance. But in any case, the difference
between a Colombian sample and a Mayan sample within the greater
American population was greater than differences between the whole
American population and the East Asian populations (which likewise
showed great various between individual groups within the population as
a whole). Any thoughts?

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

It's hard to visualize something that transcends our physical experience, and
that's the problem here. God's time has also been likened to one eternal
round, and ANE peoples tended to think of time in cyclical form, rather than as a
one-way arrow like we do today.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Paul Osborne wrote:

  Yep, I agree with John. The laws of the universe were not invented but
  have always been. There never was a first Father...

 That makes about as much sense as our being here does.  Phrases like never
 was and even perhaps first do not apply in the eternity, where one can
 see the end from the beginning.  I don't think (should I stop here? :-) that
 we have the intellectual experience, or perhaps even the capacity, in this
 estate to even being to comprehend the succession of events that led to OUR
 Heavenly Father going through his own progression.

 On there other hand, there is some sort of event progression, one event
 prior to another, since (apparently) our Heavenly Father existed prior
 (whatever that means in the eternities) to us.

 This of course begs the question of where all this stuff we call home came
 from.  Unfortunately, if I think too long about it, I start to disappear.
 So I'll stop now.  My wife and kids (hopefully) would miss me.

 Jo  (Oh no!  I have started to disappear again!)

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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[ZION] Trolling on exmormon.org

I have no intention of engaging in dialogue on exmormon.com, I just
wanna have fun. So here's a post I just made on Steve Benson's thread
about Nephi's head or some silly thing...

[oh, for those who may not know, cricket made a prophecy that the
Morg, as they like to call the Church, will postpone discipline
against Tom Murphy indefinitely because of the publicity. He also
thanked Alan Wyatt who lifted the rock off the bugs who put Murphy up to
to a level he couldn't have squiggled to on his own, for the free
publicity. I was tempted to point out that pill bugs don't like light
for very long. DSM-IV is the current guide that psychiatrists use to
classify mental illness. Grey Owl, as I explained in a previous post,
was an Englishman who masqueraded quite successfully as a Canadian First
Nations person for most of his adult life, to the point where I think he
sincerely believed he was what he portrayed. This is a nasty but subtle
allusion to the many threads on exmormon.org (or Xorg, or formerly
known as Morgue as I call it) regarding psychiatric ailments many of
the posters have, some of which they blame on the Church.]

=
Two points.

First of all, cricket, every anti worth their salt knows that any
prognostication (as opposed to a proper prophecy) has to be backed up by
a timeframe or it's useless. Perhaps you haven't shed as much of
Mormonism as you had, er, hoped?

Second, speaking of prognostications, I'm not going to make any, but I
have heard a rumour that Grey Owl Syndrome is going to become part of
DSM-V.

If you don't know what Grey Owl Syndrome is you know squat about First
Nations anthropology, and if you don't know what DSM-V is you don't know
squat about psychiatry.

Marc A. Schindler
Up in the clear air in Canuckistan.

--
Marc A. Schindler
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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

This is a common tradition (the term carob was eating away at the back of my
head, trying to get something out, and when Mij mentioned St. John's Bread, I
finally remembered that there is a tradition that what John the Baptist ate in the
desert was locust beans, not locusts. Locust bean is another word for carob.)
Unfortunately this is an issue only in modern European languages, not in the
original Greek, which clearly indicates that it was a great big bowl of greasy
grimylocust guts (and I forgot my spoon). The reason for the tradition,
besides the yuck factor is that many people assumed insects aren't kosher. And
most of them aren't, but one verse in Leviticus (iirc, 11:20-21) explicitly gives
an exception for four varieties of locusts. Which is kinda practical, when you
think about it. I mean, they have the chutzpah to eat all your grain, so why
should you be forbidden to doing unto them what they've tried to do unto you, so
to chirp?

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 At 05:30 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij clarifies in his inimitable manner:
 Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
 comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
 Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
 greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield
 per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is
 commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods
 are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny
 beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener
 in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob
 powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%.
 While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content.
 Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and
 a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the
 allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found
 in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or
 strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas
 and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high
 in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a
 delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco
 flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals.
 
 Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
 the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
 heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet
 Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye
 the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his
 raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his
 meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all
 Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him
 in Jordan, confessing their sins.

 Are you saying that John ate carobs instead of fat little insects?

 Till the confused

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[ZION] Tom Murphy

I had forwarded the latest FAIR newsletter (www.fairlds.org if you're
interested, and click on publications for the latest issue. There's a
Christmas message there, too, by someone y'all might know) to my Dad,
amongst others, with a foreword specifically about the Tom Murphy issue.
Here's his response, as well as my counter-response:

Dad: The deviousness of this reminds me a lot of the book that presently
got elevated to my bathroom bookshelf, titled: Restoring the Ancient
Church, by Barry Robert Bickmore, published by FAIR. You
gave it to me for my birthday in 2000. It describes how the Gifts were
gradually lost during the first couple centuries, causing Christianity
to break up into many disagreeing factors, but primarily Jewish, Gnostic
and Catholic faiths. Being stripped of the Holy Ghost and other Gifts,
the Gnostics tried to reason their way to acceptance, based a lot on
the Greek methods used by many of the Greek philosophers. It is
interesting to note that Murphy, like so many of his kind, having
rebelled against the Truth, attempts similar, and just as erroneous
logic to justify his opinion.

My point is that those who *genuinely* seek the truth will find it, just
like you and I have. As for those who search for other than the truth,
well, even if you removed every type of Murphy from existence, they
still won't accept the truth simply because they don't *want* to --
they're rebellious! This doesn't mean we shouldn't expose these Murphys
because, if we didn't, how would the truth seekers find the Spark,
opening the door for the Holy Ghost to testify of the truth.

Son: I think it was Elder Boyd K. Packer who once referred to this as
tripping over one's own professionalism. Ironically in Murphy's case,
he's a wannabe Grey Owl, meaning a European who is more native than
the natives, but in the process he's co-opting their history using the
tools of European science -- in this case, anthropology. That's exactly
what he accuses the Church of, so it's very ironic.

P.S. Non-Canadians might not get the Grey Owl reference, so I'll explain
that he was an Englishman who moved to Canada sometime in the early part
of the 20th century and passed himself off as an Ojibway Indian. He
immersed himself so deeply in their culture that very few knew of his
deception, except that it was not meant at all in a malignant way. His
secret was only revealed by a trusted friend after his death. Details
for the death certificate and all that, you know. One finds this in
Europeans sometimes -- I've seen it in Germans myself, in fact, and it's
one of the reasons we get so many German tourists in Alberta (besides
the skiing).
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
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[ZION] Iraq

The Blob and Snail has a good section today -- a backgrounder on the
whole Iraqi inspections situation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/backgrounder/iraq/stories/faq.html

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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Re: [ZION] Natural Law



George Cobabe wrote:

 You are absolutely right.  However we are to worship God as the supreme
 entity.  How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and
 therefore not the supreme entity.


A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:
This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, but
to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we see
every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the airplane, the
voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are thousands
of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers could
they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into wine,
raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting
aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now,
is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the
sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be
that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do
not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our
Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has learned of
many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for the
critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God have
been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand.
(M:HOD)




 That is my point.  That there is no higher entity, not even law.

 I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a
 higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of
 those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law

 I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We
 have been
 told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the
 Father.
 Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the
 Romans
 who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology.

 George Cobabe wrote:

  Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it
 is
  the law we should worship.  If we choose to do so it is then we become
 more
  like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes
  something without form, no body, parts, or passions.  The Law can fill the
  universe and yet dwell in our hearts.  We become more like Jews who know
  little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the
  smallest point of law and behavior.
 
  Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that
  belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship.
 
  I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with
 them,
  so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest.  Forgive
  me of my indiscretion if my words give offense.
 
  George
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM
  Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law
 
  
   Another interesting reference to this question--
  
   God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and
   all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a
   law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the
   which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no
   space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is
   given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and
   conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He
   comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things
   are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and
   is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are
   by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever (DC 88:41).
  
   Joseph Smith asked, Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without
   laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of
   beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of
   nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach
   to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence?
   Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity?
   That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after
   existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out
   that it was proper to have laws for His government? (Teachings of the
   Prophet Joseph Smith, 55).
  
   God, Joseph Smith taught, has made certain

[ZION] Merry Christmas

Absolutely silly. So perfect for the holiday season... [have your sound
turned on]

http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

That's pretty well my understanding, too, although I didn't know it might have
originated with the Elbionites -- I thought it was during the Middle Ages when
various Bibles mention it. But again, in the Greek New Testament the word for
locust is akpides, from which we also get the modern word cricket,
incidentally

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Apparently an early Jewish/Christian sect who called themselves
 Ebionites claimed to have originated from the pre-Christian Nazarite
 discipline, and among other interesting things, argued that Jesus and
 John the Baptist were vegetarians.  Some believe the Locust/Carob
 controversy might have started with them. I understand that some
 communities of Jewish Essenes, such as those at Qumran, are also reputed
 to have practiced strict vegetarianism.  None of these stories are clear
 and unambiguous enough to be very conclusive, nor do I think it matters
 what John the Baptist ate, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of
 triva.

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was
unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly
and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Paul Osborne favored us with:
 What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so
 do the prophets of every dispensation.

 Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus
 Christ.  We pray to the Father in the  name of Jesus Christ.  Anyway,
 it is
 impossible to worship one member of the Godhead without worshipping all

 three.  They are that one.  --JWR

 I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I
 think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not
 just in name only:

 They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15

 President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ.
 We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to
 which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our
 Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal
 life.

 Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign,
 Nov. 1982, 69
 I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are
 Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ

 Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5
 Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ.

 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he
 saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6
 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked,
 and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I
 saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24
 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in
 Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore
 ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind,
 and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise
 be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29
 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall
 down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. 3 Ne 11:17
 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole,
 bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for
 the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet
 with their tears. 3 Ne 17:10
 Paul O
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

 caused by Benign
Hyperplastic Prostate (BHP, and just like the sisters need to do regular breast
exams, and occasional pap smears, men 35 years on up should have an exam (which
isn't particularly comfortable) for prostate enlargement.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

Alright. Let's start over. What exactly in the US State Dept. press release leads
you to a conclusion other than the US got the documents first, when that is
explicitly pointed out in the government's own press briefing?

If you feel I've ignored a question you've raised, please remind me what it was.

Larry Jackson wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not
 need to spin anything. Here it is again, since you keep
 deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the
 courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
 (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:

 ___

 And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point.  Since
 you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me
 the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
 (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error.

 You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be
 correct, and you tried to blew it off.  So at this point, I
 am not talking about your point.  I am still talking about
 my point, if you even remember what it was.

 I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine.  I'm
 sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus
 on one thing at a time.  It's an error I often make.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever heard of it
being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I remember:
cans labelled Karob in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea). And I'm
sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle article on
carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that.

Its other names are  locust bean and St. John's Bread in the belief that when
it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern translators
couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they thought it
wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus
11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect.

So he really did eat bugs.

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:
 There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical
 climates, but
 that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except
 perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).

 Haven't you ever had carob brownies?  It's often used around here as a
 cocoa substitute.  Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca.

 Till

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[ZION] The Gospel and National Security

I just heard something from Steve Hildreth, a defence analyst with the
US federal government, that I thought I should pass on in case any are
interested. BYU is sponsoring a symposium in Washington in the Spring of
'03 on The Gospel and National Security. Steve wrote an article
critical of the Gulf War (among other things) for BYU Studies about the
same time I wrote a similar personal essay for Dialogue which was also
anti-war. He says his paper will be the lead-off paper in this
conference. Don't know anything else about it, but if anyone's
interested I assume they could find details on BYU's website.

Incidentally, both of our articles are on my website (I've belatedly
received his permission to post his):
Mine's called Is There Such a Thing as a 'Moral War'?:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/moral_war.htm
Steve's is called Perspective on the 'First Presidency Statement on the
MX Missile.  http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/Hildreth.htm

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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[ZION] Where do old hippies go?

I thought this one was good for a chuckle...

http://www.globeandmail.ca/series/cartoon/19thuedcar.html

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
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[ZION] Warning: this post is full of tangents,irrelevancies and sidetracking.

To start, here's a letter in today's Glock 'n' Spiel (Globe and Mail).
Try to ignore the writer's barbed reference to Americans. It's not
only part of the cultural wallpaper here, but he's exaggerating to make
a point, and I think the point's worth the exaggeration.

Not so bad after all

By RICHARD GRIFFITH
Thursday, December 19, 2002  Page A22

 Ravenna, Ont. -- The controversy generated by David Ahenakew reminded
me that our Jewish citizens are often among our most loving and
generous. In both Canada and the United States, many charitable
foundations owe their existence to Jewish founders and benefactors.
Moreover, how many of our museums, galleries, arts councils and theatres
could survive as well as they do without their legions of Jewish
patrons?

 So, what would happen if the Jews took over the world?

We know what happens when the world is run by, let's see, the Egyptians,
Persians, Greeks,  Romans, Ottoman Turks, Spaniards, French, British,
Germans, Russians and, Jehovah save us all, the Americans.

If it's ever the Jews' turn, we'll be surrounded by music, art, humour,
literature and great conversation.

===

Now the tangents, irrelevancies and sidetrackings

David Ahenakew (pronounced ah-HEN-uh-cue) is a former National Chief of
the Assembly of First Nations, the most senior elected First Nations
official in Canada. Earlier this week he went on what honestly sounded
like a drunken anti-Semitic tirade in an on-the-record interview with a
Saskatoon TV reporter. The only part I can quote without violating the
list's charter (in letter or in spirit) is that Hitler had the right
idea when he fried six million Jews. It's shocked everyone, of course,
and there's even talk of revoking his membership in the Order of Canada
(see http://www.gg.ca/honours/order_e.asp for the neat-o medals the
three levels of OoC members get to wear. I've only met one OoC member
that I know of, and that was former New Brunswick premier Frank McKenna,
with whom I helped arrange a meeting with my minister at the last
Microsoft World Leaders Conference the time Stephen and I met in
person).

Anyway, Ahenakew's only position now had been as head of the senate of
the Saskatchewan federation of First Nations, which is an honorary
position (indeed, any reference to senate in Canada, including THE
senate*, has a connotation of an old folks' home for retired politicos
of various kinds) and he has announced his resignation.

Current National Chief is a Quebec Ojibway [iirc; maybe he's Cree] named
Matthew Coon Come**, has, of course, distanced the Assembly from Mr.
Ahenakew's comments in no uncertain way. Ahenakew's tirade was so
virulent there have been serious doubts raised concerning his sanity.

* We also call the Senate in Parliament the red chamber. That's
because it has a red carpet, representing the background of nobility,
aristocracy and royalty that the House of Lords has in Britain. There
has been endless talk of reforming it, but governments are always
reluctant to do so because being appointed a Senator is a convenient way
to force an inconvenient politician into early retirement or to reward
bagmen and the like. The House of Commons is sometimes called the green
chamber because it has a green carpet, and this is symbolic, too: of
the meadow of Runnymede where the Magna Carta was signed by King John.
When a government in a Westminster-style country like Canada, Britain or
Australia give what you guys would call a State of the Union address,
it's called the Speech from the Throne, and it's composed by the
government of the day, but it's read by the Head of State. This usually
means the Governor-General, but if the Queen's in town, she reads it, as
she's still symbolically the Head of State of most commonwealth
countries (a constitutional symbolism only). And they still use the
royal we. I can still remember Elizabeth II reading a speech from the
throne once, and using Our government has pledged to... and so on. The
Head of State isn't normally allowed into the House of Commons (again,
just a symbolism) so when the SftT is to be read, the Gentleman Usher of
the Black Rod goes to the Senate and raps on the door with the mace, and
invites him/her to accompany him to the Green Chamber as his guest.
Thereupon follows the peers which in Canada just means Senators and
justices of the Supreme Court, iirc (but in Britain it also includes
several Anglican bishops as Britain is still nominally an officially
Anglican country).

** That's Mister Coon Come to you, bud. And yes, that's his real name.
Quite photogenic, he was active in forcing the Quebec government to back
down on some of its plans to flood vast areas of the James Bay and
Hudsons Bay drainage basin to build more hydro plants to export
electricity to the eastern US. He went to New York, addressed the UN,
local business groups, the whole shebang -- he's very media savvy.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

[ZION] The Tom Murphy Affair (FAIR Journal, December 2002)

I don't know how many of you subscribe to FAIR's free internet monthly
newsletter, or even care about the issues it addresses, but here's their
December 2002 newsletter. There's a link in there to an excellent
article that addresses the Tom Murphy affair. Mr. Murphy has been
portrayed as an intellectual whose membership is in danger because of
what he has written as a scholar. The facts are quite different; an
obscure academic (he teaches at a community college in a department with
only one full-time member -- himself) his work was actually commissioned
by an anti-Mormon group for publication in one of their periodicals, he
was paid for this, and he also misrepresents LDS doctrine. The press has
portrayed him as a devout Mormon when in fact he disengaged from
Church activity in 1993 -- by his own admission.

FAIR is the Foundation for Apologetics Information and Research, an
unofficial group that publishes material to counter anti-Mormon claims.
It has no connection to the Church and this should be kept in mind.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the
easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well,
maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to p*** in their own
manger, as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of the
demonstrations, and who loves to try to sue anyone who 'defames' him [I only write
this without trepidation because I am safely in Canada. Not that he couldn't hire
a lawyer up here, but he'd have to find Canada first, as the old joke goes].
Anyway, he's well-known to many LDS apologists and is one of the more obnoxious
breeds of anti-Mormons. Even the Tanners won't have anything to do with him.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo.  I got
 there about 6:00.  The public comment session was supposed to begin at
 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was
 winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of
 people waiting.

 A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive.  These were
 Jesus people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and
 damnation.  Several of these gained the microphone during the open
 period.  They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and
 rudeness.  One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began
 the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship.

 Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful,
 notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics.  Quite a number of them were
 prominent members of the community.  I don't know what collective wisdom
 the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was
 an interesting exercise in democracy.  At least no one can complain that
 there was no public forum in the decision-making process.

 One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was
 pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter
 Rockwell.  These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell
 was around.

 I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the Whistling
 and Whittling Brigade might also be a good notion to resurrect.  When
 the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder
 of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became
 a target for troublemakers.  Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of
 young men to identify such parties as they entered the town.  The boys
 would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to
 them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a
 lot of sharp knives.  Apparently most of the bad men were immediately
 discouraged and quickly left the town.

 Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square
 while the arguments continue.

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

After all, it doesn't say the elect (like, say, a tall, young good-looking bishop) 
*will* be deceived, it only says they *could* be.

Mark Gregson wrote:


  Hey, wait, that's my part!   You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
 
 
  Till  who even got a new costume for the next show

 In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with 
your provocative statements.  That's a most humble forgiveness, too.

 =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see 
than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] New guy



John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Stacy Smith favored us with:
 Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are.  Judging from
 other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.

 For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing
 the LDS email discussion lists.  There are 274 listed at the moment, but
 few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a
 conversation.  Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L.  But
 it is not exactly a faith promoting experience.  A couple of years ago I
 promised I would never again participate there.  I made the decision after
 a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer.  That didn't disgust me so much
 as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself.


Not no one, actually. ;-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see 
than weigh.  Lord
Chesterfield

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its contents do not
necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with 
which the author may be
associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My
apologies for any misunderstanding.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 George Cobabe favored us with:
 Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
 have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
 You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
 was the French following the American example.

 He's got you there, Marc.  It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe.  You
 must be having a bad day.  --JWR


--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21



John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
   Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
   Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
   rebel against Britain.
 
 It actually doesn't say this. See below.

 But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the
 Constitution.

Indeed.

 And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have
 been written if we had remain colonies.

This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's
said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses
historical events, he doesn't cause them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His
plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity
makes. I don't profess to understand how that's possible, although some of my
studies of chaotic systems in mathematics show that in principle what appears to be
random and chaotic can have a pre-determined result, although not a result that can
be figured out by our current mathematics (cellular automata comes close, but the
problem is always knowing the initial conditions, and if the Big Bang was actually
how our universe was created, those initial conditions are forever lost if we go
back extrapolating in time, lost in the great singularity of the first 10^-43
seconds.

*I'll give you an example. I know what I'm going to write may offend some, and I
apologize for that in advance; it's not meant to be offensive. However, I do
remember one GA (and not ETB; in fact I believe it was DOM) saying, referring to
the famous vision of Wilford Woodruff (where he was directed to do the temple work
for the founding fathers), that all the founding fathers were men who believed in
Christ's divinity and atonement. But in secular history it didn't quite work out
that way. Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a
Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, from what
I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking tended
towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that both believe
there's a higher power but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity
whereas theism does). Thomas Jefferson was very much a Renaissance man, and was
accomplished in many areas. One of the things he did was kind of a precursor to the
modern, so-called Jesus Seminar, sponsored by the Westar Institute. That is,
Jefferson rewrote the New Testament so it only included what he felt were the
original sayings of Jesus, and that excluded any references to miracles, let alone
the atonement and resurrection.  Again, no offence is meant, but God uses the
materials at hand, so to speak, he doesn't override people's free will.

 So, while it actually doesn't say
 this, it is implied very strongly.  --JWR

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement

We don't have the same tradition of class action suits here like you do in the US.
Tort reform is a hot topic in the US these days, too, as I recall -- one of the
reasons was some particular damages that were awarded by juries in Mississippi
(the Loewen case comes to mind). Perhaps Tom can comment further if he has the
time and inclination.

What's embarrassing is that Ken Kyle was in my stake when we lived in Ottawa, and
he says he remembers us, but I can't remember him -- I know the name, but can't
remember the face. Anyway, I thought listmembers might be proud that some Saints
are having influence for the good in high places.

Chet wrote:

 Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up
 with.  Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in
 Canada.

 I hope so.  I really hope so.  Because in this country, the tobacco
 companies are being beaten on by being sued.  They raise their prices,
 so that everyone wins:  the government gets more money, the tobacco
 companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what,
 and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop
 smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers.

 Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route.

 *jeep!
   --Chet
 Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
 are doing the impossible.

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

 Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible.

And again, in the QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off.
Have  you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other
Security Council members?

 Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

 So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the
 Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack
 at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing:  ...

 ___

 This just is true, I'm afraid.  And your excerpt begins by
 saying just what I said.

 That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person
 running the copy center is your prerogative.  That you feel
 the spokesman was not appropriate because the US
 didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in
 Canada is also your prerogative.


That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier
thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a
politician because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet
spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems.


 Enjoy your prerogative.


It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing.
You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] LOTR

I don't know. Tom, Mark?

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the
 Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music is one
 of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my humble
 opinion. --JWR


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

 difference between us and both
the liberals and the literalists.

--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

Believe me, I don't mind being called to task when I'm wrong. Now, I have to
admit, sometimes I don't always agree I'm wrong, but that's a course of a
different holler.

George Cobabe wrote:

 There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred.  I
 was just impolite enough to point it out.

 Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out
 error.

 I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes
 regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-)

 George

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[ZION] New WTC plans announced

New York has decided to go with a mixture of skyscrapers and memoria,
although the exact plan has yet to be chosen. The new towers will
surpass the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur (currently the world's
tallest building[s]), although not, iiirc, one or two buildings proposed
for Shanghai and Hong Kong:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/18/wtc.rebuilding/index.html

--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Iraq

I can't say I told you so yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.

I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a
war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US
politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd
see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I
could be wrong -- I guess we'll see.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180id=200212181727000163465

--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law



Jim Cobabe wrote:

 I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
 to natural law in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
 incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.


Ah, there's a crucial difference there: that we are. I would agree with your
modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't
know what it means to say that God is subject to natural law because we are only
beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that
transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from
Joseph Smith.


 God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
 His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
 acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
 He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_
 laws.


Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement
as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the
ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A
parallel is our unique claim that spirit is refined matter. That means it's
matter, but it's not what Paul would call corruptible, but rather
incorruptible. What does that mean? We don't really know yet.


 He is the ultimate source--not a subject.


This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is
best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the
existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the
prime mover. His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there
had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we
certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't
believe God is the ultimate cause in the philosophical sense. We believe that
God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications,
which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But
it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with
respect to the nature of God.


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21



Geoff FOWLER wrote:



 I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works.
 However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you
 term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are
 not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we
 have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the
 same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of
 these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil.
 Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by
 line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to
 us.


Exactly, which is why I kept warning that I was a hammer looking for nails. That's
another way of saying my own speculation was a box, too, with its own boundaries.
None of us is [yet] out of the box, so to speak.


 Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as
 limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :)


Heavens, yes! That's as bad as falling asleep during the Begatitudes ;-)


--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21



Jim Cobabe wrote:

 It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this deist
 misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically
 promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism.  There is
 really no compelling documentation to support their arguments, and every
 evidence to suggest that Jefferson, at least, was a devoutly and
 fervently religious man in his own right.



Is it really an issue with you? Are you sure you want to go down that road?


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] New guy



John W. Redelfs wrote:

 It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc.  I don't
 remember hearing a peep from you.  There is a bishop in my stake who is a
 longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either.  Bob Westover
 didn't say anything either.  I wasn't so disgusted with Richard Russell's
 blasphemy.  I expected as much from him.  But the lack of protest persuaded
 me that I had no place on the list.  I was truly offended by the lack of
 protest. You know what would have happened if someone had said something
 negative about D. Michael Quinn.

 Aw... nevermind.  It is all ancient history.

Well, I guess we remember it differently. But my style on Mormon-L, where I kind
of considered myself a self-appointed home teacher in the same sense I am
responsible for the no contacts in our ward* is such that I wasn't going to come
out and call people blasphemers or whatever, but I distinctly remember asking that
people observe the golden rule; that just as they didn't like some of your
characterizations of liberals, they, too, should show some respect and common
decency. Also, as I recall, it was RR who made the remark, I believe it was PB.
But I could be mistaken. Probably neither one of us cares enough about it to
search Mormon-L's archives.

And I also remember on more than one occasion writing exactly, I'm with John on
this one, although I can't remember offhand what the issues were at the time. And
I wasn't the only one -- there were other TBM's there, too. Some didn't stick
around very long, mind you.

I'm not on Mormon-L anymore in any case; I cut back a lot of my Internet activity
for various reasons, but mostly because of my health.

*so what does a no contact home teacher do? He sends out monthly newsletters,
with a bit of eye-catching news to get their interest (say, like about Burton
Cummings) and adds a spiritual message (my last one was from a book by Sis.
Ozaki).



 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
 School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
 four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
 Church members in their personal and family study. We
 need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
 a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
 any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've
explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by natural
law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly (corruptible) sense
and one an eternal (incorruptible) sense, but not magic -- that's
Protestantism, as you rightly point out.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
 Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
 uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
 God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
 laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
 idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
 impossible even for God.


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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an
impatient bunch, ya know...

George Cobabe wrote:

 Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
 necessarily so.

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

  Jim Cobabe favored us with:
  I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
  to natural law in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
  incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
  
  God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
  His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
  acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
  He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_
  laws.
 
  It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
  Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
  uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
  God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
  laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
  idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
  impossible even for God.
 
 
  John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  ***
  ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
  Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
  ***
  All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
 
 
 
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

Thanks for the additional insight. Looks like I was a bit out-of-date -- I was
stretching back to my bonehead philosophy class in university. But there must be
some kind of term for a belief in an *im*personal higher power. Any philosophers
on the list?

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 This isn't quite right, Marc.  I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no
 such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God.  A Deist
 was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common,
 ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after death,
 etc.  Here is a passage from the current online Britannica* that will set
 you straight:

 It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists.  Knowing as
 they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies of
 men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and
 return to the most fundamental basics common to all.  No wonder they joined
 the Church when they got a chance.  No wonder I did.


And this part I would agree with without hesitation. In Jefferson's numerous
letters on the matter, including his famous (or infamous, depending on your pov)
letter regarding the curtain between church and state, it seems like he was
acting as much out of disgust with existing religions as anything, but he did
write some things which indicated he did not believe Jesus Christ was anything
other than a very enlightened teacher. Unfortunately, it's like quoting dead
prophets: without their presence to defend or explain themselves, we can but try
to interpret them, and we know what that leads to.

*totally off-topic, but this reminds me. I've been tempted to pay for a
subscription to Britannica online (I remember you mentioning it was one of the few
sites you felt were worth paying for). Well it turns out that if we order our 2002
tax software, QuickTax, from Intuit this month, we get a free Britannica online
CD-ROM set/subscription. I emailed that form back pretty quickly!

Oh, and ObLocalBoosterism: Intuit's Canadian operations are HQ'd here in Edmonton
for various reasons, but the people in Santa Clara wanted them to expand, to take
over the marketing and development of QuickTax/Quicken for the Pacific Rim and
parts of South America, as well as establish a tech support call centre to cover
all of North America, but they wanted them to move from Edmonton to a more
geographically sensible location. The local leadership didn't want to move so
came to us (when I was a trade officer for our provincial ministry of Innovation 
Science) for help. I helped, together with my Edmonton city counterpart, put
together a package showing that Edmonton was the most cost-effective place for
them to locate *all* their operations, including the Santa Clara one. Well, of
course, they didn't go quite that far, but I took a lot of pride when they opened
their new building in SE Edmonton a few years ago which quintupled their previous
space. So if you ever call tech support for Intuit, tell the guy or gal on the
other end of the line, How 'boot them Oilers, eh?!

And Mark and I know a story about his old boss, Glenn, but I can never tell it
publicly ;-) [seriously, part of the law here, which is consistent with how civil
servants work in commonwealth countries is that according to Section 19 of the
Alberta Public Service Act, anything that's said to me by a private company in
confidence is to be held in confidence just as if I had signed a NDA with them. I
know lots of stuff about Microsoft, too -- mostly good, incidentally -- but could
never talk about it publicly. The only reason I can talk about Intuit is because
the local president, who is also now the VP International for all of Intuit,
publicly thanked the two of us for our help when they had the ribbon-cutting, so
I'm simply repeating what's already on the public record]

Boy, that was a rambling, post, eh? When your wife treats you to good pizza it
puts a feller in a good mood.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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[ZION] LDS Ex-Utah Representative Found Dead in Tel Aviv

[Thanks to Scott Gordon at FAIR for bringing this to my attention]

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021218_2241.html

Ex-Utah Rep. Owens Found Dead in Tel Aviv
Former Utah Rep. Wayne Owens Found Dead on Tel Aviv Beach; He Was 65

The Associated Press

WASHINGTON Dec. 18th

Wayne Owens, a former Utah congressman and longtime advocate for Middle
East peace, was found dead Wednesday in Israel, according to the State
Department. He was 65.

Owens, a Democrat, served four terms in Congress and helped launch the
Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation, a
Washington-based group dedicated to fostering peace in the troubled
region.

His body was found on a beach in Tel Aviv at about 9 p.m. local time
Wednesday, according to Stuart Patt, spokesman for the State
Department's Consular Affairs Bureau. He apparently died of natural
causes, Patt said.

Owens was on business in the region. A spokesman for the family could
not immediately be reached.

What Wayne Owens did was change people's lives. He did it in so many
ways. He was dedicated to public service, said University of Utah
political science professor Tim Chambless, who interned for Owens in the
spring of 1973 and later worked on his campaign. He changed my life.
It's a great loss.

In Congress, Owens, a native of Panguitch, Utah, fought to protect more
than 5 million acres of Utah wilderness, sponsored legislation to
compensate those sickened by radioactive fallout from nuclear weapons
tests in Nevada, and used his seat on the House Foreign Affairs
Committee to advocate for peace in the Middle East.

He was first elected in 1972 and served as a member of the House
Judiciary Committee where he voted to impeach President Nixon and was
part of a group of freshman Democrats who forced a vote to end the
Vietnam War.

He lost a bid for Senate in 1974 to Republican Jake Garn and made an
unsuccessful bid for governor in 1984. In 1986, he regained Utah's 2nd
District seat, which he held until 1992, when he again ran for Senate,
losing to Republican Bob Bennett.

Owens helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic
Cooperation in 1989 and served as its president, spending much of the
last decade meeting with leaders in the region trying to foster peace
through economic development.

Utah Rep. Jim Matheson said he was very shocked to hear of Owens'
death. Matheson, who ran Owens' campaign for governor in 1984, said
Owens served as a political mentor to his whole family.

I think that's true for a lot of people in public service, Matheson
said. The first memory I have of a campaign in Utah was when he walked
the state in 1972. He brought a certain energy and enthusiasm to
politics.

Starting in 1965, Owens worked as a staffer for Utah Sen. Frank Moss and
Massachusetts Sen. Edward Kennedy. He was the Rocky Mountain coordinator
for Robert Kennedy's 1968 presidential bid. He spent six years as a
full-time missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.

He is survived by his wife Marlene and five children. Funeral plans have
yet to be announced.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21



George Cobabe wrote:

 Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as
 it involves who created that law.

 The question is:  Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
 creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
 Natural Law.

 Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary?

 I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our
 universe was created by our Father.


I agree. In this sense I take the term natural law to mean a telestial law, a
law of corruptness as Paul would say.


 This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the
 same, nor different, natural laws.


And that's the second way to use the term, the way I think John and I are, as
another way of saying there's no such thing as magic.


 When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it.


Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing universe
fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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[ZION] Dr Red Green was right all along

Duct tape really is good for you...

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Going, Going, Gone

A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E177632CD}

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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[ZION] Iraq

Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads
Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from
CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and
near where he's currently attending university):

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=3tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraqoption=start_row=3start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraq

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to spin
anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so
please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
(which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:

===
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

 Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible.

And again, in the QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking
the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have  you
received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council
members?

 Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

 So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ...
 You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

 ___

 I'm not criticizing anything.  You are ignoring my point and I
 am ignoring your bait.

 Spin on.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued...

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell
 carob-beans.)


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

I understand that we would be wary of talking about God in any limiting way. But
if you will permit me a bit of spin latitude on this, you can always turn the
question around and say that it was those bad bad Catholics who ruined theology
with their martial language, fit only to order troops and civil servants around.
But that's the problem with words: once they've been used a certain way it sticks,
and all of its baggage comes with it, like when your mother-in-law comes to visit.
;-)

(E.g., will we ever admit to being gay and dapper gentlemen again?)

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -Marc-
  The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation
  of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible
  telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that
  there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in
  *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot
  comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation.

 I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as
 something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't
 omnipotent in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed. The fact that
 other religions don't understand the meaning of words like omnipotent
 does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond
 any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do
 undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing
 simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately
 tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would
 be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do,
 whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else,
 that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition.

 Stephen

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law



Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -John-
  It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
  Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
  They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
  he because God.

 My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
 of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those
 laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's
 comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably
 untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her
 laws.


It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings,
and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate.


 He could, for example, travel faster than
 light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.


That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we
don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these
words have baggage that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are
really disagreeing with each  other in substance (to use another word full of
ancient baggage), but only in semantics.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 John W. Redelfs wrote:
 ---
 The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed
 to become a God is a Protestant idea.  It is akin to creating something
 from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
 ---

 One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia
 of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere
 with false ideas and distortions of the truth.  The omni words are
 overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we
 just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our
 own unique definitions.

 Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were
 coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God
 instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the
 plan of salvation.  These are the natural laws to which I make
 reference.

 God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits
 and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws
 whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The
 relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in
 knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker
 intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might
 have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and
 intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of
 spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.)

 Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises
 all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to
 which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high
 state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father.
  (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft,
 1966], 575.)

 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
 things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all
 things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and
 all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

 And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things,
 by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42)

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
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Re: [ZION] Iraq



Jon Spencer wrote:

 You are probably wrong.

 War is not imminent because we are not ready.  We will be in about one
 month.


So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East
earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my prognostication has a weak
point, because you're right in principle; the war could be delayed until the US
feels it's ready. Any prognostication is at best an educated guess, and if I'm
wrong, well, it won't be the first time I've had to eat lumpy porridge ;-)


 Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
 primarily, and not at the US populace.  I also believe that the US is trying
 very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out
 little hope of that happening.


Why? Saddam isn't on Florida's voter list, is he? /snidely-whiplashism


 I do not believe that there will be any backing down.  IMNSHO, Bush honestly
 believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to
 Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies.  Saddam will go.

 And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.

 Jon


At least we're both covering our cyber-rear ends, so to speak...

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21



Jim Cobabe wrote:



 I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as
 I can manage.

One can't really ask for anything more. Good thing this is all good, clean fun,
eh?

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone

Hmm. I was able to get at it. But just in case, I've cut-and-paste it at the end
of this post. Formatting may be a bit out of whack, but at least you'll have the
text.

George Cobabe wrote:

 story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
 copy and paste.

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
 Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone

 A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
 serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
 mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
 http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E
 177632CD}


Thursday » December 19 » 2002

Kissinger, Law, Lott: gone, gone, going

 Mark Steyn
 National Post


Monday, December 16, 2002

Friday was an odd day in America. It began with an announcement that there would
be a late afternoon press
conference by Trent Lott, the Senate Majority Leader under fire for waxing
nostalgic about Strom Thurmond's
segregationist candidacy in the 1948 Presidential election. Initially, everyone
assumed he'd be resigning. But he
didn't. Instead, all kinds of other folks did. Henry Kissinger resigned as
chairman of the panel looking into what
really happened on September 11th, and Bernard Cardinal Law resigned as
Archbishop of Boston, the Catholic
archdiocese most deeply mired in the priestly sex abuse pandemic. Dr. Kissinger's
resignation was highly
premature, Cardinal Law's extremely belated and the timing of Senator Lott's is
still being worked out.

Dr. Strangelove's decision to bail has deprived the left of a lot of fun. Even
those of us who are partial to the old
boy like him precisely because he's sinister, ruthless, a master of realpolitik,
etc. These may be fine qualities but
not exactly the ones you're looking for on a commission meant to ferret out the
truth from murky spooks and lay
it before the people. Various lefties denounced Bush's appointment as deeply
cynical, but it seems to me
exactly the opposite. Putting Kissinger in charge of the 9/11 truth squad
virtually guaranteed no one would believ
e a word of what the final report said. Only someone indifferent to cynicism would
do that. Unless, of course,
Bush knows that what's likely to be uncovered is so damaging the only thing to do
is release the information via
a channel that guarantees your opponents will dismiss it out of hand as the one
scenario that can't possibly be
true. If so, it's deeply cynical mainly in the sense that it's deeply cynical
about public cynicism. And I don't
believe Bush is that cynical.

More likely, the appointment of Kissinger is confirmation of how Bush is almost
endearingly detached from the
world of spin, image, perception and their muddy cross-currents. This shouldn't
surprise us: Nobody preoccupied
with how he'll look would have picked Cheney as Veep, Rummy for Defence or John
Ashcroft as
Attorney-General. Whatever one feels about these appointments, they're not the
acts of a President who's the
creature of focus groups. In the end, Dr. Kissinger ankled because he didn't want
to reveal the client list of his
international consultancy. It supposedly includes many foreign governments. It
would be interesting to know
which ones. The good doctor has taken, for example, a more benign view of the
House of Saud than many of us
have. But he's back in private practice now and it's strictly his business.

Cardinal Law, by contrast, clung on month after month, long after it became clear
how much his stewardship had
damaged the Church. I cannot agree with Hugo Gurdon's conclusion that the
Archbishop's past actions were,
surely, due to shortcomings and mistakes rather than to malignancy or indifference
to the plight of children.
Indeed, I'm staggered Hugo could write such a sentence. The overwhelming weight of
evidence is that Law was
at the pinnacle of an elaborate racket set up to protect those he knew to be
compulsive child rapists. In 1997,
the Archbishop went out of the way to give fulsome thanks for the priestly care
and ministry to all of Paul
Shanley, a man Law had been aware for two decades was a serial sodomizer of those
in his care and who had
given public lectures on the benefits of man-boy love. It was Law who
re-assigned and re-re-assigned and
re-re-re-assigned the now defrocked Father Geoghan, in full knowledge of what had
happened in the last parish
and of what would certainly happen in the next. Shortcomings won't cover it, nor
will indifference: In essence,
Cardinal Law was a supplier of fresh meat to Geoghan and others. He is a
profoundly wicked man who presided
over an almost unfathomable swamp of institutional depravity.

None of the above means that I'm one of those who think priests labour under the
intolerable burden of
mandatory celibacy. Despite the best efforts of a highly sexualized culture,
plenty of people get

Re: [ZION] Carob beans

See, folks? You have a question, and there's always someone on the list who

a) knows the answer;
b) may not know, but knows how to find out; and even on occasion,
c) hasn't a clue but can concoct an answer with such an air of authority that no
one cares if it's right or not ;-)  [Thanks, Jim]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
 comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
 Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
 greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield
 per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is
 commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods
 are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny
 beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener
 in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob
 powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%.
 While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content.
 Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and
 a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the
 allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found
 in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or
 strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas
 and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high
 in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a
 delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco
 flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals.

 Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
 the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
 heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet
 Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye
 the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his
 raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his
 meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all
 Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him
 in Jordan, confessing their sins.

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The
people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is
no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the free
market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI
(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
 Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that
 Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there
 are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the Northern Alliance
 was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the
 country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence
 Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer.

 There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that
 while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine
 distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were
 transported to the USA.  Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter.  Of
 course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and
 proved himself to be a mere opportunist.

 Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan
 opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains
 intact after a Bush, Jr. victory.

 I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders.  At
 least I hope so.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
 School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
 four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
 Church members in their personal and family study. We
 need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
 a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
 any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is while a conditional
term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And
if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well?

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Jim Cobabe favored us with:
 Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding
 that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them
 from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following
 the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members
 will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our
 governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some
 Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994)

 Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the
 screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list:

 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: We believe in being subject to
 kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
 sustaining the law.
 A. Strongly agree
 B. Agree
 C. Don't know
 D. Disagree
 F. Strongly disagree

 8. But I also believe DC 134:5 which reads: We believe that all men are
 bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they
 reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE
 RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are
 unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly;
 and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own
 judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time,
 however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.
 A. Strongly agree
 B. Agree
 C. Don't know
 D. Disagree
 F. Strongly disagree

 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it
 is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the
 individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is
 supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own
 hands.
 A. Strongly agree
 B. Agree
 C. Don't know
 D. Disagree
 F. Strongly disagree

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
 intellectuals --Uncle Bob
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes



Jim Cobabe wrote:

 I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear
 technological knowhow.  What a refreshing change for the world to buy
 their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians,
 or the PRC.  Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper.  ;-


This really isn't new, actually. There are a lot of out-of-work Russian and
Ukrainian scientists around (I've met some of them even here in Edmonton at
high-tech firms I've visited). And of course, our CANDU (and now the more compact
Maple reactor being sold by a former division of AECL, and a sister company to the
medical products division, where I lived -- see
http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/021029/maple_1_reactor_1.html for the Maple, and
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/cnf_sectionA.htm#c for CANDU. A Three-Mile
Island or Chernobyl-type accident is virtually impossible with either reactor.
What we won't sell are the research reactors such as are installed in Chalk River
ON (near where the uranium for the 2 US bombs dropped on Japan was mined), and
Whiteshell MN (NE of Winnipeg). Both of these reactors have very high neutron flux
-- enough to give a 1.5 cm Cobalt-60 source an energy level approaching smaller
linear accelerators.

[Yeah, yeah, I know you were yanking my chain, but give me a chance for
boosterism...]
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council,
but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State
Dept. briefing:

Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02:

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily  media briefing in Washington December 10.

 REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE
MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
[emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working
document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as
possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to
its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while
drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to
accelerate the review,  Reeker said.

In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the
Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to
assess the  risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin
reviewing that document,  full copies of the report have been made available to
those members of the Council  that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday,
the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to
assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against
the inadvertent release of information.

And from the press corps QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here
to copy them off. Have
you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members
or other Security
Council members?

Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have
their copies, as I think
we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the
Council president's decision
-- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the
resolution -- we assisted in
ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive
information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of
those members with that
expertise and all together we will be assessing the full
document to see about
proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make
available to other
members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty
evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with
expertise in this matter happen to be the other permanent members of the
Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other
countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For
instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place.

Gary Smith wrote:

 Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it
 at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US
 did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to
 ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of
 non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now).
 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 Marc:
 No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it
 to other
 permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations
 (technically
 speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was
 public
 news, I'm not making it up.

 
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston

Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God

Well, I've been working on it tonight/this morning because I have insomnia (how's
that for a spiritual motivator?) I got about halfway through and found a couple of
embarrassing typos along with the rest of the formatting (don't use Netscape
Composer on Word docs, at least, not Netscape 4.72).

Stacy Smith wrote:

 I'd love to see that one when you get it good and cleaned up.

 Stacy.

 At 06:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote:

 If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov,
 where I
 attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The
 first was
 printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the short
 version. The medium version is on my website at
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html  I've promised FAIR a
 long version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long
 version,
 after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and
 turns the
 doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to
 attack it)
 
 Jon Spencer wrote:
 
   I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book How
   Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God.  I added it
  to our
   website, with the following description (actually, only the first two
   paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!).  It is a very good book,
   well worth the reading.
  
   Jon
  
   How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God brings
   profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of orthodox
   Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how
  these
   doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The
   various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek
   sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from
   biblical teaching.
  
   The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical
  context,
   show that during the second century theological concepts taught in
  Platonism
   were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution.  Emperor
   Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to
  death
   because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the
  day.
   The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's
   lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms.  Their efforts
   brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the
   Trinity.
  
   After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors
   were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian
   theology today, called classical theism, to biblical teachings.  The book
   identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes
   of God taught in classical theism.  Modern theologians are challenged on
   numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into
   ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological,
   historic and scientific analysis.  This book constitutes a major challenge
   to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the
   many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy.
  
  
  //
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  /
  
 
 --
 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
 will pick
 himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill
 
 Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
 solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors
 employer,
 nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
 
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal

Re: [ZION] trinitarianism

No, you'll have the content -- it's just the endnotes and some of the formatting
that's messed up. Also, I spelled homoousis and homoiousis the same in Greek;
the latter should have an iota between the two omicrons. Minor stuff like that.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Bummer!  I just printed it off to read.  I assume that the content won't
 change, so I'll try to save some trees.

 Jon

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:

 I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on
 trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the
 article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the
 footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip
 it into better shape.

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] No biological basis for race

A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known
(but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis
for determining race:
http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=concept+of+raceoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=concept+of+race

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

 this]


 And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
 about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward).  I
 honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.


Oh, it was just a throwaway comment. If there's a demand for something, someone,
somewhere, somehow, will provide a supply. You can fight it and just say no. I'd
rather see the government get out of the way, and allow society to solve what is
after all a social problem (drug abuse). Our war on drugs has much in common
with our war on terrorism.


 Jon

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:

 I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
 The
 people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
 there is
 no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
 free
 market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
 the ISI
 (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

Doh! The character you're thinking of isn't Pakistani. He can't be, since he's
Hindu.

Ya can't hit the targets if ya can't see 'em

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Jon Spencer wrote:
 ---
 I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
 owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
 ---

 Sounds like a Simpsons episode.

 Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
 instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
 counterpart-apparent.  :-0


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view



Mark Gregson wrote:


  NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official
  statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to
  the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an
  agnostic.

 This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great 
reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway:

 Marc, what is God's view of science and religion?  Does He separate the two?

His servants seem to. From the 1931 statement: [Heber J. Grant presidency]

Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to 
bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology,  biology, 
archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the 
souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our   calling in the realm 
of the Church

For more on the general topic of science and religion in Mormonism, I'd suggest the 
article by that name in the EoM: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_1_8.htm

 Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate?


No, but that's not the question I was raising. Both science and religion are man-made 
terms for concepts, and I would suggest God is above both of them. I think what many 
people get uneasy over is how to draw a distinction between the activity, or 
discipline, of science as a human activity, and natural philosophy, the old, 
pre-scientific name for looking at the physical world in a physical way. One of the 
first things Man was commanded to do was to name the animals, and we've been 
categorizing ever since.


 Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a 
straight answer from you on them.  If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, 
would you mind refreshing my memory?


Hope the above helps.


 The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have 
seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one.  There is absolutely no 
dividing line with this kind of truth over here and that kind of truth over 
there.  Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in 
this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of 
gravity.  So it's all one with God.  The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no 
place with God.  His knowledge embraces it all.  And that's why some of us on this 
list don't care much for the notion of NOMA.


But we're not on God's plane, so while in this telestial sphere, NOMA, or the 1931 
statement, which amounts to the same thing, will have to suffice, as in so many other 
affairs.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick 
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

The joke going around during Gulf War I, if I can call it that, was: what movie
has been banned by Saddam Hussein? Iraqnophobia, of course. (Arachnophobia, a
horror flick involving spiders, was in the movie theatres about that time).

Stacy Smith wrote:

 You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place.  Lol.

 Stacy.

 At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:

 I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
 of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
 that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
 are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
 with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
 (other than Bush, I mean :-).
 
 If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
 very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
 VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
 efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
 their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
 hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
 ally.
 
 I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
 problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have a
 different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan and
 Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
 way, is pretty high up on my list.
 
 And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
 about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward).  I
 honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.
 
 Jon
 
 Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 
 I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
 The
 people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
 there is
 no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
 free
 market at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
 the ISI
 (Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.
 
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Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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[ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement

 by Parliament in 1997. I later convinced the CCS's
National Board to apply for and fund intervener status in the courts
which we eventually received.  I hired a young lawyer, Rob Cunningham,
to be part of the legal team working with lawyers from the Government of
Canada when this new Act was also challenged by the tobacco industry.

The Canadian tobacco companies have now failed in their attempt to get
the Canadian Tobacco Act overturned in court. Québec Superior Court
judge André Denis last Friday upheld the constitutionality of the Act,
which severely restricts the advertising media and types of
advertisement that can be used
to promote tobacco brands. He ruled that provisions of the Tobacco Act
are fully justifiable under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
He also upheld regulations under the Act that mandate picture-based
health warnings on cigarette packs and require manufacturers to provide
extensive reports to the Government of Canada on product ingredients and
emissions as well as marketing activities and research. He also
delivered a powerful criticism of the tobacco industry that is
unprecedented in its magnitude in Canadian courts. The Court concluded
that the tobacco industry advertised to youth, engaged in deceptive
advertising, failed to disclose its knowledge of the
health effects of tobacco use and was a willing accomplice to cigarette
smuggling.

The implications of this judgment are immense. For example, the Tobacco
Act was the authority for picture-based government health warnings
covering 50% of each side of cigarette packs. Other countries, such as
Brazil, have copied this Canadian innovation. This provision is being
considered in the current negotiations under the auspices of the World
Health Organization for a Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. The
final negotiations are next February in Geneva.  Both Rob Cunningham and
myself have been involved in these negotiations representing the
Non-Government Organization (NGO) sector. The tobacco industry would
have liked to have seen these warning
knocked out by the courts because of their world precedent-setting
nature.

The CCS and other health groups in our tobacco control coalition having
been pressuring the Government to ban the use of misleading descriptors,
such as light and mild. This judgment will make our job easier. We
are also working to have the Government eliminate prominent package
displays at retail outlets.

Cheers.

Ken Kyle
Director
Public Issues Office
Canadian Cancer Society
116 Albert Street. Suite 1010
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5G3

T: 613.565.2522 ext. 300
F: 613.565.2278
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Let's Make Cancer History
1 888 939- | www.cancer.ca

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

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Re: [ZION] The Laughing Savior

I think we can assume so, but indirectly -- by the references to criticisms of him
by the Pharisees, for hanging out with winebibbers, publicans and other
sinners. I don't imagine such meals were always sombre ;-)

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any
 scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of
 humor?  Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the
 scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no
 laughs.  What do you think?


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

-Marc-
A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always
known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is
no genetic basis for determining race:

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=concept+of+raceoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_re

The study discussed in the article was performed on Brazilians, a highly
racially-heterogenous group -- and on a very heterogenous subgroup of
Brazilians, too. The study is ridiculous; it's like saying, There is no
such thing as dog breeds, because we went to the pound and found no
strong correlation between the mongrels' supposed breed and their actual
attributes. Totally bogus. I will bet that performing the same study
between groups of Japanese, Norwegians, and Ethiopians would give the
lie to the statement that skin colour is a poor indication of
ancestry.

Besides, the concept of race consists of much more than skin color,
despite the article's implication otherwise. Body build, height, facial
features, hair color/texture/distribution, subcutaneous adipose
preponderance -- all these are considered racial features. While
mentioned in the study, these are clearly relegated to the back seat, as
evidenced by the article's opening line.

Actually they weren't. The author of the article doesn't mention them up front, but as
Thomas Hudson from McGill University is quoted as saying, 'The physical traits of an
individual -- especially skin pigmentation, hair colour, hair texture, and the shape
of the lips and nose -- are constantly used for racial
categorization and thus play an extremely influential role in human social
relationships, the authors write. Yet, they point out, It is possible for two
siblings differing in colour to belong to completely diverse racial categories' in
Brazil. He clearly equates the other physical features with colour as a
traditional designator of race.

There very clearly is a biological basis for the characteristics we
classify as race. It's called genetics. The statement that there is no
biological basis for race is absurd on its face, and those that hold to
it are either deeply ignorant or else have an axe to grind.

Can you show this from a scientific source? With all due respect, I don't think you
know what you're talking about. Not meant as an attack -- I just want to see a
contrary scientific view. This story isn't news -- it just adds to the pile.
Geneticists have been saying this for a long time. Incidentally, not only do we
have nothing to fear from this, but in light of the Tom Murphy affair, this actually
gives us ammunition. I'm using it in some apologetics work I'm doing regarding
Murphy's review of DNA and Lamanites.

It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise,
or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such
proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist
is to be tautologically incorrect

That's not what the article is saying, and it's not something I would claim, either,
fwiw. The point is whether race is a sociological concept or a biological concept.
Admitting it is social is not to say it doesn't exist -- you've either misinterpreted
the paper or are making a logical error.

-- people whose ancestry originated in
different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry
than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And
children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological
basis for race is to play the fool.

Stephen

Play the fool is not a scientific concept either ;-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely;
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any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] A voice of moderation: The language of Islam has been hijacked

Interesting, and welcome, note of moderation from Ms. Sheena Khan, the
head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Canada.

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021217/COSHEEMA/Comment/comment/commentColumnistsHeadline_temp/4/4/6/



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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

slapping forehead You're right. Sorry -- I just got my history mixed up. I guess
I must have been thinking of French intellectual influence that preceded the
revolution (ie de Tocqueville, not to mention Lafayette's military assistance).

George Cobabe wrote:

 Marc suggests:
 If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired,
 one
 would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it
 laid
 the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the
 liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of
 Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy,
 were all
 inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not
 religious
 doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction

 Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
 have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
 You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
 was the French following the American example.

 I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be
 wrong about things like this.  You may be looking at the roots of the French
 experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual
 revolutionary events.

 And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired.

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

 John W. Redelfs wrote:

  Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
  There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is while a
 conditional
  term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the
  covenant? And
  if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as
 well?
 
  Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
  Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God
 to
  rebel against Britain.

 It actually doesn't say this. See below.

  How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth
  Article of faith?  This is how I make the reconciliation.  Rebel against
  constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so.

 I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the
 only one
 possible. The DC does not mention the American Revolution, it says the
 founding
 fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in
 particular DC 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the
 reference
 to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent
 clause.
 Here's the whole verse: And for this purpose have I established the
 Constitution
 of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very
 purpose, and
 redeemed the land by the shedding of blood..

 I certainly believe the US is the cradle of the restoration and that the
 *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic
 government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact
 form of
 the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a
 cultural
 addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore
 inspired. I
 think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to
 LDS in
 the US -- think of the term manifest destiny, which alludes to a divine
 mission.
 I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of
 options and
 uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference,
 actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in
 how it
 came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost
 certainly
 because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its
 other
 colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you
 think
 we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that
 boils
 down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite
 the
 differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most
 industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights
 and
 applied them in their own democratization.

 In fact, DC 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether
 that's
 unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word while
 means. I
 understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that
 members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the
 use of
 force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a
 member of
 the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing
 your
 Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its
 ends.

 If one feels

Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name and
from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the
Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to be
part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from
memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid that
Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular state
and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths as
many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And
eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a third
country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite the
rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country (in
terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent,
Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's
historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date from
the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution.

India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Jim Cobabe wrote:

 
  Jon Spencer wrote:
  ---
  I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
  owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
  ---
 
  Sounds like a Simpsons episode.

 Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they
 sort of look alike, so what's the difference?  Opps!  Now I guess I have to
 pull a Lott.  I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV).

 
  Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
  instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
  counterpart-apparent.  :-0

 Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop.  At least I thikn so.
 Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-)

 Jon

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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[ZION] Tom Murphy

For those of you who are following the Tom Murphy affair (aka DNA and
the Lamanites), you might be interested to know that Jeff Lindsay has
recently updated his apologetics page on the topic:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

It's not written for a professional geneticist (which is not a bad
thing) but is an excellent survey, imo.

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.  Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq



Jon Spencer wrote:

 So let me get this straight.  First you postulate that the Americans took
 the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection.  Then you use that
 supposition to say That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far
 more dangerous to you than Iraq.

 Did I get this correctly?

No. Reread my post. I said the publicly stated, the proximate reason, was so that
recipes for CBW didn't make it into the public realm (which is credible).  The
ultimate reason was that, because of the age of most of the material, there was a
danger that the ultimate source of the technology would become public: the USA to
Pakistan when Pakistan was its client in South Asia during the Cold War.

I'm not suggesting you bomb Pakistan. I'm suggesting you keep your weapons of mass
destruction at home.

 If so, if your first supposition is incorrect
 

 Ah, what the heck.  Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with.  THEN we
 can bomb Iraq.  No, wait!  North Korea first, then - um - Iran!  Then
 Canada.  And THEN Iraq!

 I got it now!

 Jon

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:

 By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi
 government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before
 other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that
 they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for
 weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't
 make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know
 how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to
 censor the Iraqi material is

 because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and
 was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.

 Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far
 more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's
 pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the
 November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately
 obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy
 the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US
 makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise
 up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the
 south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the
 U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite
 rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how
 stupid the US thinks Iraqis are.

 And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist
 action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this,
 or if you'll, once again, just ask huh? wha' happened? By then you'll
 be blaming Pakistanis.

 You heard it here first.

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other
permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically
speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public
news, I'm not making it up. Here's a post to an official US state department
briefing on the issue: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02121208.htm
[incidentally, for those who still think the rest of the world operates the way
the US does, note that if this were a Canadian government document, the director
of communications would not be interviewed by journalists as in this briefing
record and QA session -- it would be the minister who would be interviewed].

Think, too, that it's in Iraq's best interests to cloud the issue, as it were, by
showing this kind of complication.

Incidentally, I've also said that the U.S. won't invade Iraq when push comes to
shove -- that while the U.S. administration may in fact be quite sincere in their
concern about Iraq, their first priority was the mid-term elections. Now that the
Republicans did better than many dared hope, the need for a wag the dog
scenario is fading, and the doves are getting the upper hand. Two complete naval
battle groups have started sailing *away* from the Middle East:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=2B634666-9A17-4525-9558-1FA9C23496BB

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the
 Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The
 U.S. took it before other Security Council members could
 look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure
 certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of
 mass destruction didn't get made public. But this
 doesn't make sense --

 ___

 Of course it doesn't make sense.  It didn't happen that way.

 That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the
 U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S.
 made more copies for them.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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Re: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)

I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just 
never got around to any of the trilogy. So maybe this is funny, and maybe it isn't, 
but there was a cartoon in the latest New Yorker. You don't really need to see it to 
get it, I wouldn't think.

TOLKIEN CHARACTERS THAT NEVER MADE IT OUT OF THE AUTHOR'S NOTEBOOKS.

NOGO: the agoraphobic hobbit
FINARFINGOL: the elf dentist
SMIG: the miniature dragon

Mark Gregson wrote:

 SPOILERS, don't read further, warning, show off about to be exposed as a fraud, 
humbug and charlatan:


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Re: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

Just by the by, yesterday (Sunday) we drove back from Taber and stopped at Gasoline 
Alley for a quick pit stop (for non-Albertans, Gasoline Alley is a strip of fast food 
and gas stations along the service roads on the south side of the city of Red Deer, 
which is midway between Calgary and Edmonton.)  There's now a Harley-Davidson store 
there where you can get your hawg serviced. They sell Harley insignia and similar 
products, too.

Mark Gregson wrote:


  Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, 
what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle.

 Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak 
for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about 
someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings.  Which 
is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a 
motorbike?  Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking 
of some kind of near beer substitute?  Which is louder?  And if your daughter showed 
up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself 
wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead?

 So there you have it.  The questions lead to obvious answers.  The list has spoken.

 =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =


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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick 
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of 
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[ZION] Afghanistan improved?

Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that
Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there
are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the Northern Alliance
was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the
country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence
Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Re: New guy

I say off with BOTH their heads! (that's an in joke they will both get).

Rick Mathis wrote:

 At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote:

 No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the
 primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which
 is better-looking.
 But, Stephen, CObabe implies that there are at least two of them.  I
 think the list is finally getting it right.

 Rick Mathis


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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin

The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and
would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent*
existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So
God became an abstract and separate existence an und für sich (in and of
itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions
such as the God without body, parts or passions.

George Cobabe wrote:

 Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition
 of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite
 manifestations of that universal concept?  What is God is a universal
 constant that many, many are exalted to conform with?

 If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis
 in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application?


There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church
Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the
latinization influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy,
imo), called theosis, a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church
today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually
called apotheosis (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls
me on it). But first theosis -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS
concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who
was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in
the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the
eastern church kept a version of the Arian heresy which meant to get admitted
into God's presence and sharing in his glory.

So godhood exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is
the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an an und für sich,
or universal existence to it. That turns it into a thing which we would
reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very
well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here.


 George


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin



Jon Spencer wrote:

 I watched a very learned Lutheran schoolar explain this entire subject (the
 Trinity) on TV once, and I felt inclined to write to the school that gave
 him his doctor of divinity degree and advise them to retract it.

 It was pure, illogical gibberish, with many hidden (and unproven)
 assumptions.  As someone who grew up as a Presby and listenned to all that I
 could to try to understand the mainstream Christian faith, I can attest to
 the inability of anyone I encountered to adequately explain this mythology
 or provide any consistent scriptural basis for it.  I have searched for a
 book which intelligently explains it to no avail.  I have found, however, a
 book which traces the source of this concept to of all people our old
 a2+b2=c2 friend, Pythagoras.  The book is called How Greek Philosophy
 Corrupted the Christian Concept of God by Richard R. Hopkins, and published
 by Horizon.

I would add a hearty amen to your recommendation of this book. I've just dabbled
in it here and there when I needed a reference for something, so far, but I do
intend to read it from cover to cover.

  I believe that it was out of print for a time (Horizon is a
 rather small LDS publisher, and I think they just ran out of stock) but I
 believe that it is available again.  It's not on our store's website, but
 I'll check into it if anyone is interested.  People in my ward have borrowed
 the book from me and want their own copy.

 Jon


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

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[ZION] prayer of the day