[ZION] Einstein and religion

2004-03-15 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Allow me to come back here just long enough to tell you about a link I found while researching some work (no, really). Someone here was writing about the idea that God is dead and related things about 20th-century beliefs and disbeliefs. I found a link wherein Albert Einstein discusses some

RE: [ZION] Genetic Republicans

2004-03-06 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- REPUBLICANISM SHOWN TO BE GENETIC IN ORIGIN This is about as funny as the Hillary Clinton joke posted a few days ago, and in about as good taste. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

RE: [ZION] Genetic Republicans

2004-03-06 Thread Stephen Beecroft
I have an amazing tolerance for perversity, which perhaps explains why I abide your insufferable sanctimony with grin and a groan. My friends, I've had enough of taking (and witnessing) abuse in what is supposed to be a friendly forum. If I were more mature, I would follow the example of

RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tom- I found the Tolkein movie that I watched (something about rings I think) Just curious if there's a Tolkien movie that isn't about rings... to be a tiresome road movie where the heroes kept getting into impossible situations for no apparent reason and then being rescued in the best

RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tilly- Last winter I decided to take the Beecroft challenge and see what really was in Pride and Prejudice Till! I'm flattered. And glad to hear you enjoyed it, eventually at least. Her style has to grow on you, I guess. Orson Scott Card, LDS writer of fiction/science fiction/fantasy,

RE: [ZION] Very cold news sources

2003-11-17 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- network of stringers in virtually every berg in the world. Enjoying the mental picture of CNN correspondents huddled, shivering, on various icebergs floating around the north Atlantic... A visiting Asian* seated himself on an airplane next to the window, and was shortly joined by a man

RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition

2003-11-14 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. I've gotta tell you, Ron, that I've been thinking exactly the same thing while reading your posts to this list for the last week. Stephen

[ZION] My intro

2003-11-10 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Who am I? Think back to high school. Remember the coolest kid there? He was incredibly smart, but so athletic that the jocks wanted to hang with him anyway. He was so good-looking that the cheerleaders all wanted to date him, but his girlfriend was the friendly but shy girl with braces that

[ZION] Hai karate?

2003-11-10 Thread Stephen Beecroft
About seventeen years ago, I lived at BYU with my cousin in a big old yellow polygamist house in Provo (5th East and 7th North, across the street from the laundromat there) that had been divided into four apartments. The smallest of those apartments was inhabited by a guy who taught ninjutsu,

[ZION]

2003-11-10 Thread Stephen Beecroft
// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /

[ZION] Mother Teresa

2003-11-10 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make

RE: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons

2003-11-09 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Cousin Bill- It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. -JWR- I'm a neutral, good, human, fighter, ranger. I'm a confused bipolar half-Romulan smuggler accountant. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please

RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

2003-11-06 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? I don't understand this. Why would the prophet's words in General Conference constitute the Church of Ezra? And why would Reed Benson be called its profit? While I don't know Reed Benson personally, I have had a few

RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)

2003-11-05 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- But a more important question: Why do people on ZION focus so intently on such things -- judging others in particular -- anyway? Who authorizes us to hold people to artificial standards that may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with the gospel Christ taught and can not be

[ZION] Definitions (was: RE: Eternal Life vs. Immortality)

2003-11-05 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ron- To me, immortality and eternal life have the same meaning. Your definition of immortality is mine for salvatation. Yours for eternal life is mine for exaltation. I think you meant salivation. ;)~ --(drool) This points up once again that which I personally believe to be the basis for

RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)

2003-11-05 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Grampa Bill- Not at all certain of this, but it appears that this might be instruction rather than doctrine. In this matter, I would be much more inclined to trust the understanding of a bishop/former bishop than my own. (Especially since my understanding of this principle is, as I

RE: [ZION] Whom God hateth

2003-11-05 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- However, as I pointed out, the very wording of the scriptural verses I cited shows that God hates the person or people being named [Note that I believe you were replying to an earlier, erroneously-sent version of my email. Possibly I expressed myself somewhat more clearly in the

[ZION] Whom God hateth

2003-11-04 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-JWR- I went looking for some scriptural evidence that God ever hates any of his children, and my cursory survey did not turn up anything. Am I missing something? Surely God hates wickedness, but does he hate the wicked? He hates sin, but does he hate sinners? Perhaps you could point me

RE: [ZION] About Marc

2003-11-03 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Steven- I think highly of you too. Are you sure you don't want to reconsider and be a part of ZION again? Steven, I'm flattered that you even remember me. My good friend John has asked that I return, as well. Guess he thought there wasn't enough bickering on the list... As you might be

RE: [ZION] Apostate Cat

2003-11-03 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-JWR- Since it is one of my favorites. I dug this out of my archives: The Apostate Cat by Tom Matkin Actually, this is my recast version of Tom's poem, which was a bit freer and less versificated. I would hate for Tom to get blamed for my pedantry. :) I used it as a practice piece to see

RE: [ZION] Wish List

2003-11-03 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-JWR- I am compiling a wish list of people I miss, people that I wish would actively participate on the list. Would any of you care to help me make my wish list? Any such list would be doubtless incomplete, but in addition to those you've listed, I would have to add (of course) Marc

RE: [ZION] Apostate Cat

2003-11-03 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tom- The version of my poem that you have posted was a reworked version by Stephen Beecroft. Please disregard my previous post. ;) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http

RE: [ZION] Wish List

2003-11-03 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-JWR- You may be getting this news late, but Marc Schindler passed away in his sleep a little more than a week ago. I will miss him terribly. He was a real pillar of the Zion list. Yes, I had heard. In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express my condolences. I figured if we were

[ZION] About Marc

2003-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Dear friends, I've resubscribed so that I might express to you my sense of loss at Marc Schindler's passing. I did not always treat Marc with the respect he deserved or give adequate weight to his opinions in some matters; shamefully, I used this very forum more than once to express my

[ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Geoff- Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Geoff- I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Elder Nelson- Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. -George- Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is

[ZION] You're back!

2003-01-22 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Missed me, huh? I knew you couldn't stay away for long. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

RE: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ alone and tell him

RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! -Stephen- The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create

RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just

[ZION] Unsolicited, irrelevant opinion

2002-12-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
IMO: Topica is no worse than many other free mailing-list services, and is better than many. Its downtime is actually relatively small, all things considered. Zion has a history on Topica that now stretches back three and a half years -- quite a long time in Internet-speak. Finally, if the

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. -Chet- He cannot lie. He cannot disobey any of his own commandments. He

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jon- God cannot rob justice to pay mercy. How's that? Nope. Another false-by-definition, as well as (I think) a misquotation of scripture, which says that *mercy* cannot rob justice. I already brought up the example that God cannot save people in their sins, which is clearly a

RE: [ZION] can't be a sealer

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- No one got back on the subject of why a man can't be a sealer in the temple if he has been divorced even by no fault of his own. I don't know why. I don't think it matters. Being a sealer is not a right, and in the strict sense is not even a privilege. It is a calling, just like being

RE: [ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to 5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which

RE: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. [...] I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: [...]

[ZION] Microsoft interview questions

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or infamous) interview questions, of which you're likely to get at least one per interview. A classic example is: You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black marbles, one filled with white marbles, and

RE: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, from a German word for carbine hook. Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian) called/spelled them carob-beaners. I wondered how that term had come about. What's a carob bean, anyway? But I had nothing to

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. Stephen

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. -Jim- Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize. Interesting that we independently arrived at a similar conclusion, even using similar wording. Almost like we

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in *their* realms, and which we by

RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again: I disbelieve that any man or woman can

RE: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-George- Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar Garrard, God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the first day, I thought

RE: [ZION] No biological basis for race

2002-12-17 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis for determining race:

RE: [ZION] Re: New guy

2002-12-16 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Val- Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. Stephen //

RE: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)

2002-12-14 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- Also, if you send the answers to this list, make sure to warn everyone that there is spoiler information involved. Good call. WARNING!! This message contains SPOILER INFORMATION!! Don't read it unless you already know everything it says! In which case, reading it is superfluous. But

RE: [ZION] Temperature conversion chart

2002-12-02 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stacy- How do I decrease my sensitivity to cold? Convert to Celsius. If you find yourself getting cold at a mere 59 degrees Farenheit, for example, people will laugh and mock and point their finger at you and call you various unpleasant names, like weenie or pansy-girl or Gary Smith. But if

RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is an idiot

2002-12-02 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- A customer is not in any way responsible for what one of its subcontractors say unless it is in the context of both of them acting together. -Stephen- So then, why do you bother including the disclaimer at the end of each of your posts? -Marc- I don't follow you. I don't have any

RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is an idiot

2002-11-30 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- A customer is not in any way responsible for what one of its subcontractors say unless it is in the context of both of them acting together. So then, why do you bother including the disclaimer at the end of each of your posts? And please read properly: it was the *Alberta* government

RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is an idiot

2002-11-28 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Odd that we get critized for merely reacting to the U.S. but now a truly insignificant molehill is over-shadowed by a mountain, and all the Marc, I'm baffled at your insistent glee on this topic. I have seen no mountain regarding this. I would have missed the initial report altogether

RE: [ZION] Coffee, tea or eternity?

2002-11-26 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- W/L 5/8 BELOW Any plumbers out there who can read toiletese? ;-) I'm neither a plumber nor fluent in toiletese, but I suspect the first number is the tank capacity, while the second refers to the total amount of water per flush. Septic Stephen

RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron

2002-11-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jim- Canadian politician calls President Bush a moron. -Marc- It wasn't a politician, it was an aide, Huh? That's like saying, It wasn't an animal, it was a housefly. Of course she is a politician. Do you mean that she is not an elected official? That much is clear, but really doesn't

RE: [ZION] Canada: Bush is a moron

2002-11-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- OK. And? A civil servant fits none of these definitions. You don't think she qualifies as one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government? You don't think she is a person engaged in party politics as a profession? I think she very clearly qualifies under at least those

RE: [ZION] Coffee, tea or eternity?

2002-11-22 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- PS. Hi Jack! Tut, tut. We don't make such overt terroristic threats on this list. A Pauled, Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder

2002-11-19 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stacy- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain

RE: [ZION] No Desire To Discuss What Is Forbidden

2002-11-19 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- My only fear in bringing Pamela Anderson into the discussion was that I might be accused of artificiality (tiddly-BOOM) chemistry_humor As our Mexican neighbors might say, Si! Si! /chemistry_humor Stephen

RE: [ZION] Pamela Lee Anderson: poster girl of a different sort now

2002-11-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
I'm quite sure that the mere mention of Pamela Lee Anderson violates several elements of the charter. Which means I'll probably get booted now. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)

2002-11-16 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Perhaps because the 1,7 and the tri prefixes are mutually exclusive? Just a guess. :) Stephen // /// ZION

RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)

2002-11-16 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Oops. I meant 1,7-dimethylxanthine . . . Also called paraxanthine; described as an adenosine receptor ligand and a major metabolite of caffeine at

RE: [ZION] Hogwarts and all

2002-11-16 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stacy- Don't you know that'll just irritate Protestant Fundamentalists worse than anything else? They'll think we're Satanists for sure! Strong evidence, indeed, in arguing for the virtue of Harry Potter books... Stephen

RE: [ZION] Evolution's missing link

2002-11-15 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- Here is the evolution of Michael Jackson's face http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html This is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. I'm not even a fan, and I feel terrible for him. The gospel could heal this man, but I doubt anything else could. How nightmarish his life

RE: [ZION] Answer to life

2002-11-13 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. [...] -Jon- Then 9 times 6 equals 46. And that IS the correct answer. -Marc- In the decimal system, of course, you decidigicist, you... Just occurred to me: 9 x 6 = 42 in base 13, and 9 x 6 = 46

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the Seattle area to Prince Rupert. Nonsense! There's always a route. Oh, do you mean a route you can drive your car through? Never mind. You mean you can't get in any of the building because they laid you off? Shame

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- -Stephen- I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the Seattle area to Prince Rupert. Amazing. I quoted myself. No, wait, that was actually John. I just got confused and thought he was me because he's going to be in Utah with me. Except that I don't live in

RE: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Irwin- Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be corrected. (grin) -John- After you are married, you will get all the correction you need. That's what I thought at first, but Michelle informs me that this is a slanderous falsehood. Stephen

RE: [ZION] Answer to life

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. And if he is using Euclidean mathematics? Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

RE: [ZION] a whirlwind trip south

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Seriously -- did you guys hear about a case back east somewhere, New York state, iirc, where a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI

RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
: Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years

RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tom- It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a Fetch search on MRI killing Guess you're right. Here's another: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mri010731.html How sad. I know it's old news by now, but still, how tragic.

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? The leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS Republicans?

[ZION] Madsen claims

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
I enjoy listening to Truman Madsen. Though he tends to sappy and over-the-top rhetoric, he is knowledgeable and pretty enjoyable to listen to. I'm listening to some lectures he gave on Joseph Smith, wherein he references some things I'm not familiar with and have been unable to turn up on

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... Stephen John W. Redelfs wrote: It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- [Previously] One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. [Now] Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies that belief in x is in defiance of y. Okay, that's reasonable. I don't agree with it, but

RE: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-09 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Steven quotes _The New American Magazine_- This current display, therefore, repeats the notion that the dropping of the bombs by the U.S. brought Japan to the peace table and saved countless lives on both sides. But this historical view, like the original commentary intended for the exhibit,

RE: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

2002-11-09 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jim- Senator Peolosi from San Francisco is being groomed to take over the top of the Dem heap in the Congress [...] It will be truly gratifying if such openly radical nuts dominate in the new Democrat organization. -John- [Steven] Choosing Senator Pelosi will ring a death knell for the

RE: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-09 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Steven- Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. Like Jim, I don't know what constitutes moral high ground in a war. Note that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both industrial cities, and thus legitimate targets,

[ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)

2002-11-09 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jim- In my experience it is common to find social mormons with a misplaced sense of loyalty to such matters. They identify more strongly with sociopolitical ideology than with their faith in Christ. Funny you should write this, Jim. Just today, I was bathing in raw sewage, er, that is,

RE: [ZION] Home automation

2002-11-08 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jon- Yep - I have automated quite a bit at our bookstore, and some at my home (because I can never get any time to finish it. What area do you have in mind? Probably my basement family room, to start with. I've been dreaming about home automation for many years, and toying with the idea of

RE: [ZION] Mars Attacks

2002-11-07 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-John- Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. To each his own, I suppose. Michelle and I watched this some years ago, and we each thought it was one of the very worst, un-funniest, unpleasant movies we had ever had the

RE: [ZION] Reconstructing the Clinton legacy

2002-11-05 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Attilla the Un- Am I a substandard American male? Judging by the voluminous email spam I receive, I have concluded that I am most certainly a substandard American male. The good news is that I can be brought up to standard (so to speak) without painful weights or operations. Alas, I haven't

[ZION] OJ thoughtfully considers new info

2002-11-04 Thread Stephen Beecroft
http://www.msnbc.com/news/822149.asp?cp1=1 Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

RE: [ZION] Ddouble-ddipped

2002-11-02 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Quite obviously, we here on Zion also constitute double-dippers, seeing as how the Church can't manage to provide us with a safe, warm, nurturing environment in which to shoot the breeze, argue obscure doctrinal points, and laugh at Canadians. The good thing is that, according to Ms. Fletcher

RE: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

2002-11-01 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- when it can dip *below* -40oC (which is also, as you probably know, -40oF). This is unnecessarily cruel. There was no need to preempt my favorite smart-alek comment. Meanie. Stephen Automobiles don't kill people. People driving automobiles kill people. And the sooner we can get all

RE: [ZION] Imagine that!

2002-10-31 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Jim, your cynical lack of faith in mankind leaves me shocked and appalled. I'll have you know that I just borrowed $25k to help out another poor Nigerian in a similar circumstance. I did it mostly out of the goodness of my heart, but frankly I expect a five MILLION (that's

[ZION] Sonia Johnson (was: Who is the House of Israel?)

2002-10-30 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- FWIW, this is exactly how I remember it, too. She also made a public snit about how her 12-year old daughter wasn't allowed to pass the sacrament. As I recall, her marriage broke up again and she declared she'd been a lesbian all along. Bit of a wacko. Wonder whatever happened to her?

RE: [ZION] You Just Don't Get It

2002-10-29 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Are there people here who defend apostate sects? Or is this a high council talk ;-) Actually, I agree with John in this. It's one thing to say that some/many/most/all religions contain truths. It's quite another to say that God directed that they be established as a sort of halfway

RE: [ZION] The veil

2002-10-29 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jim- One of the most significant meanings of the veil is the representation of our separation from God. Jim, it's great to hear you again (speaking symbolically :). In fact, I would say that the representation of our separation from God is the *primary* meaning of the veil, in all cases I've

[ZION] The veil

2002-10-28 Thread Stephen Beecroft
The symbolism of the veil is used several times in our gospel teachings, and in some different ways. They all seem to have one thing in common: The veil separates us from God. Usually that is good, or at least necessary; in one case, it is not. In the teachings of the gospel, I see at least

RE: [ZION] Jerusalem Temple

2002-10-28 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- 107th, 108th. Whatever. 220, 221. Whatever it takes. Mr. Mom / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

RE: [ZION] What is patriotism?

2002-10-26 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Gary, I agree with almost every point you've made here. So as not to make this solely a me-too post, let me add that when a writer (US citizen or alien) makes a statement like, I love America but I hate Republicanism, that writer has shown himself to be duplicitous and untrustworthy. Any good

RE: [ZION] Quorum Brotherhood

2002-10-26 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-John- Play more, work less. And when you play, make sure it is a joint outing between you and your wife and children, and those of another elder in the quorum. Invite another elder with his family to your house for dinner, or if that is too much work, just invite them for a two family ice

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tilly- What's a razor? He's the guy whut grows the crops. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Mark- Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to teachers and priests. But you

RE: [ZION] High Priest

2002-10-25 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- And I've done some research and determined that those who mentioned previously that [bishop] is a position in the Aaronic Priesthood are partially incorrect. I don't recall anyone saying it was a position in the Aaronic Priesthood; rather, they said it was an office in the Aaronic

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly,

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that, upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've been

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen

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