Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas centrifugal technology (which it got from the US) which is used to produce enriched uranium. Pakistan has denied it. The US is also accusing China of helping North Korea, but I can't see how a nuclear war in the region would be to Beijing's advantage. It is worse than that. Pakistan got The Bomb from China who got The Bomb from us. We talk about nuclear proliferation, but we don't actually do anything about it. Another UBI, China supplied ICBMs to Pakistan, not just nuclear technology. And that was in direct violation of anti-proliferation treaties. Shortly afterwards we extended to them a binding Permanent Normal Trade relations agreement. I just don't understand this telestial world. I'm completely confused. Why is it, that almost every 10 to 20 years we get into a war with someone who has been built up and armed by us? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7 years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush should use Carter this time, too ;-) Jimmy Carter is in the CFR. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
At 05:39 PM 10/21/2002, JWR wrote: At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas centrifugal technology (which it got from the US) which is used to produce enriched uranium. Pakistan has denied it. The US is also accusing China of helping North Korea, but I can't see how a nuclear war in the region would be to Beijing's advantage. It is worse than that. Pakistan got The Bomb from China who got The Bomb from us. And according to Major Racey Jordan (_Major Jordan's Diaries_), who flew lend-lease supply missions from Alaska to the Soviet Union, the Soviet's were given all the materials, plans and specifications to build their own Atomic Bomb--a direct result of Harry Hopkin's involvement in the process. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
John W. Redelfs wrote: At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7 years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush should use Carter this time, too ;-) Jimmy Carter is in the CFR. Well, then, like I said -- he'd be a natural! -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
I do, and this one's OK. I'll let you know if things change. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Is the US's goal as benevolent as George Bush would like to make it seem? Who guards the guardians in a world police state? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War in Iraq
Is this deja vu all over again? Some of those who remember that it was the *U.S.*, not the Soviet Union, who precipitated the Cuban missile crisis, think it might be: http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50600id=20021011223212106 (For those too young to remember or who didn't learn about this in school, the USSR stationed missiles at bases in Cuba after the United States provocatively stationed missiles in Turkey aimed at major Russian cities). -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] War in Iraq
Elder Nelson's talk, Blessed are the Peacemakers, is now in transcription form: http://www.desnews.com/cn/cnf/view/0,2141,290001316,00.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: Pakistan election (was Re: [ZION] War in Iraq)
Mark Gregson wrote: The first of my prognostications has come true: Islamic fundamentalists have won the Pakistani election: No, fundamentalists have not won the election. Read the whole article and then read some other news reports. Fundamentalists have not won the election and will not control the government. I said they'd win a majority of the seats set aside for general election, and that they have done, both in regional and in the national parliament. But I also said it wouldn't make any difference because Mussharaf is still the military dictator and has the power to dismiss the PM and parliament. This just increases the pressure on the situation, which was my point. In any case, let's go through the article point by point: 1. A coalition of pro-Taliban parties won control of a provincial legislature near the Afghan border Friday, the first solid results from Pakistan's election. Vote counting for the national parliament was moving slowly. This is one of four regional parliaments which includes the Northwest Frontier, a Taliban stronghold. 2. For the first time since a 1999 coup, Pakistanis voted Thursday in elections the military government hailed as a historic return to democratic rule and the opposition denounced as a stage-managed sleight of hand to mask resident Gen. Pervez Musharraf's firm grip on power.. Both Pakistan and the US are portraying this as a transition to democracy. Some (and I'm one of them) believe it will not lead in the short run to Musharraf's fall (although eventually it will, but some other things have to happen first). 3. Musharraf - an important U.S. ally in the war on terrorism - has created a military-controlled National Security Council that will vet all national policy decisions. He has also granted himself the power to sack the prime minister and dissolve parliament, rendering the vote little more than window-dressing for continued military rule. As above. 4. I predicted that Islamic fundamentalists would gain control over the national parliament in Islamabad. I had in mind a majority of those seats available for it to run for. That hasn't quite happened, but they are going to play a pivotal role, controlling whatever ruling coalition wins, so I think I'm right for the wrong reason (and in any case this represents an increase in fundamentalist support): The religious parties also were surprisingly strong in the National Assembly, Pakistan's lawmaking lower house of Parliament. With returns trickling in, the religious alliance looked like it could emerge as a key partner in any coalition government in the center. 5. The situation as of last night in Islamabad: But vote counting for the National Assembly was slow and by early Friday only 40 of the 272 general seats in the federal Parliament were confirmed. Of those, the religious alliance already had 14 seats, including one in the federal capital of Islamabad. I haven't even looked at the Globe this morning. My prediction: when vote counting is complete the fundamentalists will not have the swing votes. (Not that it would matter if they did, since Musharraf has veto power and dismissal power, too ). When the military dictatorship there falls, we will be facing an Islamic fundamentalist nuclear power. Why are you so sure that the dictatorship will fall? It's in a semi-transitional phase right now, so by definition it cannot actually fall. I don't see it transitioning in the least. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register
Re: Pakistan election (was Re: [ZION] War in Iraq)
I was wrong for the right reason. They look placed to control either main party's coalition. The regional government they won is in the Northwest Frontier, too -- as in Khyber Pass and Peshawar. Voter turnout has been very poor, as most Pakistanis realize the election is a sham (contrary to what Bush's press spokesman seems to think). This will just increase the pressure on the pressure cooker there. Mark Gregson wrote: -- Marc -- I said they'd win a majority of the seats set aside for general election, and that they have done, both in regional and in the national parliament. -- Me -- How have they won a majority of the seats set aside for general election? There are 272 general seats. 60 are reserved for women and another 10 are reserved for minority religious groups. That leaves 202 general sets. The fundamentalists have apparently won 14 so far, of 40 reporting. That is not a majority of all the seats and is not a majority of the seats reporting so far. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: Pakistan election (was Re: [ZION] War in Iraq)
Marc A. Schindler wrote: I was wrong for the right reason. sigh That should of course have read right for the wrong reason. My point was that the islamicists are gaining control of Pakistan's parliamentary system, that this will increase pressure on the military government, which will not relinquish power willingly, and when the cork does pop, the US will have another group of 65-odd million upset at it for propping up the military regime in the first place. And they'll have the bomb, already tested. They look placed to control either main party's coalition. The regional government they won is in the Northwest Frontier, too -- as in Khyber Pass and Peshawar. Voter turnout has been very poor, as most Pakistanis realize the election is a sham (contrary to what Bush's press spokesman seems to think). This will just increase the pressure on the pressure cooker there. Mark Gregson wrote: -- Marc -- I said they'd win a majority of the seats set aside for general election, and that they have done, both in regional and in the national parliament. -- Me -- How have they won a majority of the seats set aside for general election? There are 272 general seats. 60 are reserved for women and another 10 are reserved for minority religious groups. That leaves 202 general sets. The fundamentalists have apparently won 14 so far, of 40 reporting. That is not a majority of all the seats and is not a majority of the seats reporting so far. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] War in Iraq
Just some informative items. For those interested in the current state
of the U.S. military in the Gulf region, this is probably typical of as
good a succinct (and public) summary as one is going to get at this
time:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=3B60672C-890E-4217-B252-3EC888C5B10C
Canada's own shameful history in the development of WMD (CBW in
particular):
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=AA5D761C-D5A3-4DBE-90C3-E273F993915B
On another list I earlier said that the French supertanker apparently
attacked by terrorists off the coast of Yemen was picked *because* it
was French, and speculated that it had to do with UN Security Council
politics as much as anything. Even broken clocks are right twice a day:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=61589EF0-1D3D-4E67-A498-F590C2C7ABC1
Even Kuwaitis have their reservations:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=EAECD358-7A60-4CE0-8213-3D2B97B2B7A7
Canada confirms it would contribute an Afghan-sized contingent to a
UN-led coalition:
http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id={2FB03BDB-88B9-4798-AC09-32138AA537BB}
(that implies about 2100 personnel, and either a couple of squadrons of
CF-18s or the 3 or 4 destroyers and frigates that area already in the
Gulf)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high
and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our
mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] War in Iraq
Feel free. I'm no longer on LDS-poll (I had to cut back my listserve activity for health reasons). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go on Marc, post it to LDS-poll :) Clifford Dubery -Original Message- From: Marc A. Schindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:34 AM To: zion-l Subject: [ZION] War in Iraq Step 1.Co-op Congress. Status: half-done Step 2.Get the peacemakers out of the way: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1365350 Step 3:Continue with the media fog that it's about WMD (sub-step: has the guy who wrote the phrase regime change for that speech been fired yet?) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] War in Iraq
Its not the same if it comes from me Marc. Ce la vie. Clifford M Dubery -Original Message- From: Marc A. Schindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] War in Iraq Feel free. I'm no longer on LDS-poll (I had to cut back my listserve activity for health reasons). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go on Marc, post it to LDS-poll :) Clifford Dubery -Original Message- From: Marc A. Schindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:34 AM To: zion-l Subject: [ZION] War in Iraq Step 1.Co-op Congress. Status: half-done Step 2.Get the peacemakers out of the way: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1365350 Step 3:Continue with the media fog that it's about WMD (sub-step: has the guy who wrote the phrase regime change for that speech been fired yet?) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Re: the constitutionality of declaring war The lead editorial in The New Yorker is called The Talk of the Town and is usually written by Hendrik Hertzberg who is, believe it or not, an intelligent liberal (they do exist). Hes the kind of person with whom you might not always agree, but who makes intelligent arguments. To compare, on the other end of the spectrum, personally I find Mark Steyn not only funny, but usually pretty intelligent, although I only agree with him maybe 1/3 of the time. David Frum I rarely agree with, either, but I dont find him humourous OR intelligent. Oh, and you know a guys intelligent when he knows that a female professor emeritus is properly called a professor emerita! (like me teasing John about conjugating the word signaturi) Anyway, Im not even a scholar on my own countrys constitution, let alone yours, but I find Hertzberg makes an interesting argument here. What I find admirable about it is that I know from other things hes written that hes dead set against war with Iraq (as I am), and yet he finds theres justification for Bush going to war, constitutionally speaking, whether he (Hertzberg) likes it or not -- and the argument is something which would, I would think, appeal to most conservatives, although it's got some warnings and conditions. The New Yorker puts a lot of its current issue online, but the problem is that, thanks to S-Cargo (Escargot) Canada*, by the time I get an issue, its a week old. And they dont post editorials from their archives, so heres the column in its entirety. *How did you think the term snailmail was coined? Heres the column, from the 30/09/02 issue of The New Yorker: COMMENT DECLARATION Last Tuesday was Constitution Day, the anniversary of the wrap party of the original Constitutional Convention, when the thirty-nine delegates still in Philadelphia, before saddling up to disperse to their homes up and down the Eastern Seaboard, got together one last time to sign the document they had just spent four months hashing out. Constitution Day, like Flag Day and Armed Forces Day, is one of those would-be holidays that never quite achieved escape velocity Its just another day at the office. But Joyce Appleby, a busy and eminent professor emerita of American history at U.C.L.A, took it off anyway. She spent it in Washington, where she presented members of Congress with a petition signed by nearly thirteen hundred of her professional colleagues. We, the undersigned American historians, urge our members of Congress to assume their Constitutional responsibility to debate and vote on whether or nor to declare war on Iraq, the petition began. We ask our senators and representatives to do this because Congress has not asserted Its authority to declare : war for over half a century, leaving the ' president solely in control of war powers to the detriment of our democracy and in clear violation of the Constitution. Just how many wars the United States has fought since that first Constitution Day, ten score and fifteen years ago, is a hard number to pin down. How does a couple of hundred sound? There have been eight or nine that were big enough so that most reasonably attentive college students could probably name them, from the War of 1812 to the Persian Gulf War. There have been a dozen other conflicts that involved the accoutrements of big time warfare) such as pitched battles or naval engagements. And if you count the many so-called Indian wars, the various Latin-American adventures, and all the military episodes that, to their participants at least, felt an awful lot like war (from the forays against the Barbary pirate states of North Africa at the outset of the nineteenth century, to the Balkan interventions at the close of the twentieth), the numbers begin to mount up. Formal declarations of war, however, are as rare as the thing itself is common. There have been only five: for the War of 1812, the Mexican War (1846), the Spanish-American War (1898), and the two World Wars. The idea that there was once a time when American soldiers never went into battle without a declaration of war is an Edenic fantasyan exercise in nostalgia for a past that never was, like the idea that the government used to belong to the people and now serves the special interests. Anyway, a formal declaration is hardly a necessary condition for a war to be, so to speak, constitutional. Our bloodiest undeclared war was not Vietnam; it was the Civil War, which killed more Americans than all the nations wars put together except the Second World War) and which the national imagination has sacralized. In 1861, the government of the United States viewed itself as suppressing a lawless rebellion, not as fighting the armies of a sovereign state. For Congress to have declared war on the Confederacy would have been to bestow upon the Slave Power a kind of backhanded diplomatic recognition. (The same difficulty would attend a declaration of war on Al
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Fair enough, and I agree totally. (Sorry -- I really tried to find a nit to pick, but your scalp -- maybe even what it covers -- is absolutely healthy). Stephen Beecroft wrote:. I didn't say that most Muslims want to blast Americans, if that's what you're suggesting (though that might be the case). My point was simple and, I thought, fairly clear: The term jihad had a bad reputation since long before the Taliban even existed, so they (the Taliban) certainly haven't given the term [jihad] a bad name. In the non-Muslim west, the term has always had the unpleasant connotation of fanatical, murderous zealots. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan: But you also see cites like this: On Monday, Perisic and two others were charged with espionage, the state-run Tanjug news agency reported, citing a statement released by military prosecutors. If convicted, the three face between three and 15 years in jail. This came from the on-line version of the Las Vegas Sun, under a AP byline. http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-eur/2002/sep/30/093002490.html Marc: An example of a verifiable citation. Dan: It's all relative I guess since I don't read Slav, and the items referenced would be difficult to find without dates, etc. Dan: So while saying Janes reported may not be as specific as you desire, it does not lessen it's validity, or the reliability of the reporter. Marc: An example of a hard-to-verify citation. For some reason I find more of this kind in certain online news sources (like CNS) that the right wing especially seems to be attracted to. Am not sure why that should be so. Surely it can't be that right-wingers can't tell a valid journalistic service from a propaganda service. I know some smart conservatives who would never fail to make that distinction. Dan: Generic statements released by Yugoslav military prosecutors are hard to verify also. Why is it left-wingers claim that only news sources that they agree with are acceptable? Might have something to do with ideological bent, don't you think? MSNBC and their ilk claim impartiality, yet constantly apply bias in determining what they consider to be news. Services like CNS do not claim impartiality, and generally make it easy to identify their bias. A propaganda instrument will generally be much more effective by claiming impartiality while feeding their victims only that what they want them to hear. Marc, I have no problem discussing issues based on the factual content, but personal ideological attacks should be beneath us. Therefore I will no longer respond to your comments about the 'right' or 'intelligence' of the U.S. government plans for responding to the Iraqi threat. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: Dan: But you also see cites like this: On Monday, Perisic and two others were charged with espionage, the state-run Tanjug news agency reported, citing a statement released by military prosecutors. If convicted, the three face between three and 15 years in jail. This came from the on-line version of the Las Vegas Sun, under a AP byline. http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-eur/2002/sep/30/093002490.html Marc: An example of a verifiable citation. Dan: It's all relative I guess since I don't read Slav, and the items referenced would be difficult to find without dates, etc. Serbo-Croation is the language you mean, but Tanjug, while also issuing statements in their native tongue, will also release translated versions for the wire services to pick up. AP is the English-language source. In other words, the URL you gave above is sufficient for a citation. Just saying it was in Janes isn't specific enough. Another reader can't find it. Dan: So while saying Janes reported may not be as specific as you desire, it does not lessen it's validity, or the reliability of the reporter. What it tells me is that the reporter does not know his/her alleged trade if they can't put together a simple citation, like, say, Janes Defence Weekly, 27/08/02, p. 28-32. Although it's never the kind of thing I could prove, it leaves me with the suspicion that the reporter got his information second or third hand, and not directly from the news source, contrary to the Las Vegas Sun AP report (for one thing, the AP report would be in most major dailies in the US and probably Canada, so you could do a search on it.). Marc: An example of a hard-to-verify citation. For some reason I find more of this kind in certain online news sources (like CNS) that the right wing especially seems to be attracted to. Am not sure why that should be so. Surely it can't be that right-wingers can't tell a valid journalistic service from a propaganda service. I know some smart conservatives who would never fail to make that distinction. Dan: Generic statements released by Yugoslav military prosecutors are hard to verify also. I don't follow you. What's a generic statement in this context? The Yugoslavian story named names. It wasn't generic at all. Why is it left-wingers claim that only news sources that they agree with are acceptable? They don't. I'm not a left-winger, but even if some think I am, I dissed the Guardian right on this thread. To quote: Dan: But since CNS is too untrustworthy, how about the Guardian? Marc: Too ideological and wacky for my tastes. In any case, the summary you give strikes me as an accurate account of their beliefs and the payments their families receive. So again, ideology isn't the point. Might have something to do with ideological bent, don't you think? MSNBC and their ilk claim impartiality, yet constantly apply bias in determining what they consider to be news. Can you give some examples? I can. ABC, actually, but same diff. We get most of the US networks up here on cable, including the traditional Big 3. The local station's feed we get is Spokane, which is kind of odd, getting US news through a small place like Spokane, but that's another story. Anyway the national and international news is no different from ABC in Spokane than it would be in San Francisco. But this one day there had been an earthquake around 5.5 or so, and the local news team, who were giving regional news (Pacific Northwest -- Pacific Central West to us) said the earthquake was felt from Portland to Bellingham, and from Ketchikan to Juneau. So, what does that make the points between Bellingham and Ketchikan -- the Lower Mainland (metro Vancouver), Vancouver Island, the Sunshine Coast, the Inside Passage and the Queen Charlotte Islands -- chopped liver? Services like CNS do not claim impartiality, and generally make it easy to identify their bias. A propaganda instrument will generally be much more effective by claiming impartiality while feeding their victims only that what they want them to hear. Again, examples, please. I've given you an example. Let's take another look at your example from CNS: Here was your quote: In addition, Jane's Foreign Report, a highly regarded intelligence publication, reports that Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, suspects that Iraq sponsored the suicide attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Now, this could well be true. I don't know. But I'm not going to believe Lawrence Morahan, the writer, because his argument here (just here -- I'm using this part of the article as an example) is based solely on a report that according to Jane's Foreign Report, one of the Jane's group of defence and military publications published in Britain (and well-known and well-respected), has allegedly made a claim from Israel's military intelligence service. Let's work backwards. First of all, Mossad or Aman both
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan R Allen wrote: Marc: Precisely. You challenged John to show why the Saudi government sent them. I pointed out that they didn't. I'm happy that you've come around to our way of thinking ;-) Dan: I knew that they didn't. John had implied that Saudi Arabia had a higher level of guilt for the attacks than did Iraq, because 15(17) of the terrorist were Saudi, with Saudi Passports. Just because they were Saudi citizens does not mean that the Saudi government supported their actions in any way. The Iraqi government, on the other hand, does have ties to terrorist groups, reportedly had intelligence connections to the specific group that carried out the attacks, does pay restitution to the families of suicide bombers, and is unwilling to prove that they are not actively pursuing WMD. But most of the money for terrorist activities comes from Saudi Arabia. Not from the government perhaps (although some does through Ikhwan and similar fraternal and charitable organizations, and through direct funding of the PLO's government bureaucracy) so I don't see your point. Saudi Arabia also pays money to survivors of martyrs. Also, you can't prove a negative. The world's largest producer of WMD is right where you live, Dan. Ever been to Tooele? Marc: I'm not sure what you mean about what [I'm] looking for, but very generally speaking I approve of the German approach. The Saudi government, incidentally, promised to pull US troops out of Dhahran, but they have yet to. This has made some fundamentalists furious. Saudi Arabia presents itself not just as a nation-state, but as Guardian of the Two Holy Cities (of Mecca and Medina), so it has special meaning to most Moslems. Dan: They probably are not ready for us to leave because of the benefits of having us there. The point is they broke a promise. Why they broke it is immaterial. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War on Iraq
-Marc- jihad has traditionally, in Sunni Islam, meant the kind of struggle that we all must undergo in order to purify ourselves in order to make ourselves fit to be in God's presence after death. The Taliban have given the term a bad name). -Stephen- Not so. That is, the term jihad has usually (not always) been interpreted by most of the Islamic schools as meaning an internal purification struggle, but throughout Islamic history, many Muslims of the Sunni, Shi'ite, and other fringe Islamic sects have used the term to refer to the struggle against infidels, mostly Christians and Jews. So the Taliban certainly have not given the term jihad any bad name that it hasn't already had for a dozen centuries. -Marc- Many is not most any more than many crusades have not been most crusades. I didn't say that most Muslims want to blast Americans, if that's what you're suggesting (though that might be the case). My point was simple and, I thought, fairly clear: The term jihad had a bad reputation since long before the Taliban even existed, so they (the Taliban) certainly haven't given the term [jihad] a bad name. In the non-Muslim west, the term has always had the unpleasant connotation of fanatical, murderous zealots. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Or as they used to say bluntly during the Lebanese civil war, nits grow up to be lice. Grampa Bill wrote: Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: There is an Arab proverb that goes something like: The friend of my friend is my friend, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. Grampa Bill comments: And I've heard the converse, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. But I like the one that goes, The son of my enemy grows up to be the enemy of my son. Bombs AWAAAY . Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: ... Saudi Arabia can issue visas to allow foreigners to visit *their* country (although good luck if you're a woman or a tourist -- hajj and business visas are pretty well all that Saudi Arabia issues). ___ Saudi visas are an invitation to enter the Kingdom as a guest of the king. Upon entering, it is government policy that a person obtain permission from the king to leave the country. Hence, after obtaining an entry visa to go to Saudi Arabia, one must then apply for and obtain an exit visa in order to leave. Ah, exit visas are a whole 'nother matter, and you're right, some countries require them (East Germany used to, too). But I got the impression Dan was talking about *entry* visas and somehow was under the impression that the Saudis issued entry visas to the *US*, which is of course, backwards. Being in country under those circumstances causes a very interesting feeling to one, such as I, who is accustomed to the freedoms of the US of A. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 05:23 PM 9/28/02 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] favored us with: Being in country under those circumstances causes a very interesting feeling to one, such as I, who is accustomed to the freedoms of the US of A. It is one of the reasons I refuse to leave the USA. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan: This would suggest then that we really can't rely on what we hear in the news to judge whether the war is right or wrong. Wouldn't you agree? Dan Allen: If this is _all_ that they have no, but do you _really_ believe that this it all of it? Most likely what we get is just the stuff that they control the least. ___ It would be important to note that at the very beginning of this exercise in terrorism, it was announced that one of the tools to be used would be disinformation. Was it General Patton who was responsible for giving the Germans a first-hand lesson in that during World War II? It is quite an effective tool, though frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Good points and analysis. Let's move to more nuclear and solar and fuel cell energy and let the Saudis sink into their own cesspool. of course, we may have another Iraq to deal with, but, then, that will give us something to argue about. Jon Gary Smith wrote: Let's see: 17 of 19 hijackers in the WTC were Saudis. Osama Bin Laden's father owns the largest construction firm in Saudi Arabia. The official Saudi news organization condemns the US, and calls the suicide bombers, martyrs. The actual problem isn't that the Saudi head prince is against the US. The problem is (and this is true with many of the Arab nations) that they have severe economic and political struggles. Rather than have the poor and struggling mad at the crown prince, they divert people's anger towards the West and Israel. In this way, they don't risk losing their power to a democracy; and they don't have to fix the problems. So we get an unofficial/official support of Western aggression. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan: Where is the evidence that those 15 were sent by the Saudi government? Marc: Their passports. John didn't say they were sent by the Saudi government, he merely pointed out that they were Saudis, which is true. Dan: I wasn't denying that they were Saudi's; only that they were not operating under orders from the Saudi government. On the other hand, Iraq's government, through Saddam, has been linked to terrorism. Osama bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia well before the attacks. ???On the WTC.??? - What does this mean? But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he likely is now (if not in Kashmir). Marc: The government almost certainly not, but I'm not aware of anyone making that claim. It is the fraternal brotherhoods, the Ikhwan (association of Moslem Brotherhood -- like the Knights of Columbus to the Catholics) and madrassam, or religious schools, that do the fund-raising. They are based in Saudi because that's where the money is. Dan: And this is what I was talking about. The Saudi government is not supporting this (at least officially), but is unable to deal with brotherhoods without losing support and power. Last I heard we still have bases in Saudi Arabia - Marc: You have one base near Dhohar, and its status is in doubt. When you build a base in a foreign country its status is always that of a guest installation of the host country. You know, like Guantanamo Bay and Panama City. Well, on second thought, let's not go too far with the hospitality thang. Dan: Nevertheless, it is still there, and still in operation. The personnel are even allowed to leave the base and play the tourist in town. I suspect that this is also the base where the Southern Iraqi no-fly zone is patrolled from. Germany would probably be a better example for what you're looking for. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
You know, we haven't found Jimmy Hoffa's body either. Actually, I have it on good authority that OBL is now rooming with Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: At 04:50 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: On the WTC. But he orchestrated the first WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS Cole, plus the bombing of a disco in Berlin, from his base in Sudan, where he likely is now (if not in Kashmir). That's another thing that cracks me up with some people's thinking on bin Laden. He must be dead because we haven't found him. Huh? We haven't found his body either. Our press has made much of the fact that the Al-Qaede is active in over 60 countries. That means that he has friends in over 60 countries that would be at least as willing to shelter him as were those who sheltered Anne Frank during the Holocaust. He could be holed up anywhere. He could be New Jersey. Why do we evern pretend the ability to find him. Eric Rudolph is still at large, for Pete's sake. He's been missing for years. And he is from right here in the USA. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 05:13 PM 9/25/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: Dan: Saddam MAY NOT have ordered the attacks, but it is very LIKELY that he was involved in the planning, or financial and intel support. http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/Archive/200109/PEN20010925a.html the CIA is LOOKING INTO whether one of the suicide pilots in the Sept. 11 attacks - Mohammed Atta - met Iraqi agents while he was organizing his terrorist cell in the German city of Hamburg. In addition, Jane's Foreign Report, a highly regarded intelligence publication, reports that Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, SUSPECTS that Iraq sponsored the suicide attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. He has supported, and continues to support the recruitment of suicide bombers by paying the surviving families: http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020412f.html Last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld criticized Saddam for increasing from $10,000 to $25,000 the compensation he is prepared to pay families who send one of their own to become a suicide bomber. From Marc's Globe and Mail article: [An aggressor must] show a necessity of self-defence, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation. Daniel Webster U.S. Secretary of State. A pre-emptive strike is justifiable if the enemy is massing for the attack, and there is no time left for negotiations. Saddam has shown a clear unwillingness to negotiate except where it will buy him time to act. We know that he is capable of building (may already have) WMD's, and a willingness to use them. He has a clear motive to place those weapons in the hands of terrorists to use against us. There is sufficient evidence TO SUGGEST that he is part of the network known as Al-queda - whether as part of the inner circle, or just a active supporter it doesn't really matter. He clearly has the capability to work with them. Bomb Saudi before Iraq? Not while they show a willingness to work with us to at least reduce the terrorism - they did kick Osama Bin Laden out of the country. On the other hand, Saddam's government, like the Taliban, is actively supporting terrorist activity, and so it must go before he has a chance to support another terrorist attack. John: Notice by the words I have highlighted above how tentative all these claims are. We are an honorable nation supposedly. Do we attack a sovereign nation just because it MAY have been involved in something or other. I seems to me that before we start a war that could kill hundreds of thousands of men or even millions of men, we need to have conclusive proof, not a lot of may haves. Dan: I used those words because _I_ don't have the SPECIFIC facts of Saddam's involvement. I am making an assumption that those actually making the decisions have better, more specific information than those of us who are not. Any war should be approached with extreme caution, but I am willing to accept the US and Britain's word that there is credible evidence that Saddam poses a immediate threat unless forced to back down. More evidence that links are being uncovered: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020926/D7M9AG1G0.html John: As for you claim that the Saudi's show a willingness to work with us to at least reduce the terrorism, I would like to see you support that statement. 15 of the 19 who made the suicide attacks were Saudis. Osama bin Laden is Saudi. Supposedly the attacks were motivated by his hatred of US bases on Saudi soil. The Saudis are still granting visas for travel to the USA by way of various travel agencies, not requiring any screening by our embassy there. The Saudis have been financing much of the terrorism in the Middle East. And it is they who have been putting up money for the families of suicide bomber, not Saddam Hussein. Dan: Where is the evidence that those 15 were sent by the Saudi government? Osama bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia well before the attacks. Can you support your statement that the Saudi's are granting visas without US approval? Anyone can print anything they want to, but that doesn't mean that we have to allow them entry. I'm aware that there is Saudi support for much of the Palestinian terrorism, but do you have any evidence that they have been supporting anti-American terrorism? Last I heard we still have bases in Saudi Arabia - much to the consternation of OBL assuming he's still alive of course. You need to go back and re-read that article I linked to, specifically the paragraph that I also pasted with it. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here:
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Marc: In any case, do you seriously think this piece of intelligence is sufficient for George III to build invasion plans on, even if it were true? After all, do you have any idea how many intelligence services the *U.S.* has? Just a rough guess Dan: If this is _all_ that they have no, but do you _really_ believe that this it all of it? Most likely what we get is just the stuff that they control the least. I'm not even sure that George knows Dan R Allen wrote: Dan: Saddam may not have ordered the attacks, but it is very likely that he was involved in the planning, or financial and intel support. http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/Archive/200109/PEN20010925a.html the CIA is looking into whether one of the suicide pilots in the Sept. 11 attacks - Mohammed Atta - met Iraqi agents while he was organizing his terrorist cell in the German city of Hamburg. In addition, Jane's Foreign Report, a highly regarded intelligence publication, reports that Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, suspects that Iraq sponsored the suicide attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I see they haven't given a specific citation to Jane's. Also, CNS is a subsidiary of the Media Research Center, whose stated purpose is to be The Leader in Documenting, Exposing and Neutralizing Liberal Media Bias http://www.mediaresearch.org/ Gosh, you don't think they'd have a conservative, pro-war bias, do you? He has supported, and continues to support the recruitment of suicide bombers by paying the surviving families: http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020412f.html Did you even read this? It doesn't talk about Iraq, but *Saudi Arabia* giving the survivors cash payments. Sounds like Rumsfeld's confused. The article said he didn't know anything about the Saudi program. Oh well, they all look alike, don't they :-/ Last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld criticized Saddam for increasing from $10,000 to $25,000 the compensation he is prepared to pay families who send one of their own to become a suicide bomber. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: 09/26/02 01:42 PMSubject: Re: [ZION] War on Iraq Please respond to zion At 01:11 PM 9/26/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: I'm aware that there is Saudi support for much of the Palestinian terrorism, but do you have any evidence that they have been supporting anti-American terrorism? John: Do you believe that there is any great different between Palestinian terrorism and anti-American terrorism. My understanding is the most Islamic extremists considered Israel to be an extension of American power into the Middle East. Am I wrong? --JWR Dan: Enough that I think it should have a lower priority for us to deal with. Mostly I think that the terrorists use that claim as a propaganda tool without fully believing it. I believe that their hatred of Israel is much deeper, and that we are seen mostly as a stick that keeps Israel propped up. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War on Iraq
Dan Allen: If this is _all_ that they have no, but do you _really_ believe that this it all of it? Most likely what we get is just the stuff that they control the least. ___ It would be important to note that at the very beginning of this exercise in terrorism, it was announced that one of the tools to be used would be disinformation. Was it General Patton who was responsible for giving the Germans a first-hand lesson in that during World War II? It is quite an effective tool, though frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War with Iraq
And yet Hussein supports Islamic terrorists. He offers $25K to every family of a suicide bomber. He has portrayed himself in the recent past as the modern world's Suleiman. He envisions a giant regional Islamic power, with him at the helm. That is why he tried taking Iran and Kuwait, with eyes on Saudi Arabia a decade ago. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: In fact, Hussein's regime is a secular one, not an islamic fundamentalist one. Who are the three great Islamic fundamentalist regimes in the region? Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan. Take your pick. GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Japan attacked you first, so your agonizing over Hiroshima doesn't even enter into the picture. There are no right people to bomb in Iraq. Gary Smith wrote: I hope we bomb the right people, also. However, it isn't always easy to draw the line in the right place. Was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified? Must we have lost one million American soldiers invading Japan, just to keep from wiping out 300,000 Japanese people? I think we have been rather patient with Hussein. He stopped the inspections 4 years ago, and we haven't done anything about it, yet. We still wouldn't be doing anything about it, had the WTC not been toppled, killing thousands. If Hussein were just a big bully in the neighborhood, we would probably leave him alone. However, he is one that historically has shown he will use bio-chem warfare on peoples (Iran and the Kurds). He is known to have been seeking nuclear weapons. During the last war, he sought a burnt-earth strategy, setting fire to the Kuwaiti oil fields. Hussein may not be directly involved in the past attacks, but is part of a growing regional problem. Given what we know of history, if a new Nazi party arose in Germany, and Jews started disappearing into concentration camps; would you suggest we wait until they attacked us to do something about it? I know America historically has striven to stay aloof, especially in war. However, we now live in an age of mass destruction. Would you suggest we wait until one of our major cities is left uninhabitable by a dirty bomb? The fall of the WTC damaged our economy, extending the recession for over a year. Imagine the economic damage if NYC, LA, or some other major city were evacuated and left empty for years while we cleaned up the radiation contamination. Is that what you are suggesting we do? I don't like the idea of having to invade Iraq. But I know that if we do, most of the rest of the Arab world will quietly submit, and back off from the idea of suicide bombers and mass destruction. If we can accomplish that ideal, then we have won a major victory. Secondly, we may succeed in bringing democracy into the region, as we did in Europe and Japan after WWII. Regardless of their current problems, Afghanis are better off now than they were a year ago. At least women can have a life, and soccer fields are for playing in-not for executions K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: I just hope we strafe and bomb the right guy. Are we certain that Saddam Hussein was behind the incidents that you mention? It would be a shame if we clobber Peter for something that Paul did. I wonder how many Americans would be in favor of this war if it were between two evenly matched opponents? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Gary Smith favored us with: Hussein may not be directly involved in the past attacks, but is part of a growing regional problem. Given what we know of history, if a new Nazi party arose in Germany, and Jews started disappearing into concentration camps; would you suggest we wait until they attacked us to do something about it? I know America historically has striven to stay aloof, especially in war. However, we now live in an age of mass destruction. Would you suggest we wait until one of our major cities is left uninhabitable by a dirty bomb? The fall of the WTC damaged our economy, extending the recession for over a year. Imagine the economic damage if NYC, LA, or some other major city were evacuated and left empty for years while we cleaned up the radiation contamination. Is that what you are suggesting we do? This seem very close the thinking used by men who feel the Constitution is obsolete because ...we now live in an age of fill in whatever you please. Right is right. And wrong is wrong. It is wrong to go to war unless you have been attacked by an aggressor. And so far, no one has convinced me that the attack on 9-11 was something financed and ordered by Saddam Hussein. If we are going to bomb some country back to the stone age, let's at least get the right country. We ought to bomb Saudi Arabia before Iraq. Or... I guess we could just declare war against the whole Islamic world. That might be fun. I hope you all have a safe place to hide. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
Especially because the Islamic World includes France, Germany, Britain, Canada...and the United States now. John's more than right: there is no place to hide. John W. Redelfs wrote: Gary Smith favored us with: Hussein may not be directly involved in the past attacks, but is part of a growing regional problem. Given what we know of history, if a new Nazi party arose in Germany, and Jews started disappearing into concentration camps; would you suggest we wait until they attacked us to do something about it? I know America historically has striven to stay aloof, especially in war. However, we now live in an age of mass destruction. Would you suggest we wait until one of our major cities is left uninhabitable by a dirty bomb? The fall of the WTC damaged our economy, extending the recession for over a year. Imagine the economic damage if NYC, LA, or some other major city were evacuated and left empty for years while we cleaned up the radiation contamination. Is that what you are suggesting we do? This seem very close the thinking used by men who feel the Constitution is obsolete because ...we now live in an age of fill in whatever you please. Right is right. And wrong is wrong. It is wrong to go to war unless you have been attacked by an aggressor. And so far, no one has convinced me that the attack on 9-11 was something financed and ordered by Saddam Hussein. If we are going to bomb some country back to the stone age, let's at least get the right country. We ought to bomb Saudi Arabia before Iraq. Or... I guess we could just declare war against the whole Islamic world. That might be fun. I hope you all have a safe place to hide. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
At 05:13 PM 9/25/02 -0700 Dan R Allen favored us with: Dan: Saddam MAY NOT have ordered the attacks, but it is very LIKELY that he was involved in the planning, or financial and intel support. http://www.cnsnews.com/Pentagon/Archive/200109/PEN20010925a.html the CIA is LOOKING INTO whether one of the suicide pilots in the Sept. 11 attacks - Mohammed Atta - met Iraqi agents while he was organizing his terrorist cell in the German city of Hamburg. In addition, Jane's Foreign Report, a highly regarded intelligence publication, reports that Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, SUSPECTS that Iraq sponsored the suicide attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. He has supported, and continues to support the recruitment of suicide bombers by paying the surviving families: http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020412f.html Last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld criticized Saddam for increasing from $10,000 to $25,000 the compensation he is prepared to pay families who send one of their own to become a suicide bomber. From Marc's Globe and Mail article: [An aggressor must] show a necessity of self-defence, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation. Daniel Webster U.S. Secretary of State. A pre-emptive strike is justifiable if the enemy is massing for the attack, and there is no time left for negotiations. Saddam has shown a clear unwillingness to negotiate except where it will buy him time to act. We know that he is capable of building (may already have) WMD's, and a willingness to use them. He has a clear motive to place those weapons in the hands of terrorists to use against us. There is sufficient evidence TO SUGGEST that he is part of the network known as Al-queda - whether as part of the inner circle, or just a active supporter it doesn't really matter. He clearly has the capability to work with them. Bomb Saudi before Iraq? Not while they show a willingness to work with us to at least reduce the terrorism - they did kick Osama Bin Laden out of the country. On the other hand, Saddam's government, like the Taliban, is actively supporting terrorist activity, and so it must go before he has a chance to support another terrorist attack. Notice by the words I have highlighted above how tentative all these claims are. We are an honorable nation supposedly. Do we attack a sovereign nation just because it MAY have been involved in something or other. I seems to me that before we start a war that could kill hundreds of thousands of men or even millions of men, we need to have conclusive proof, not a lot of may haves. As for you claim that the Saudi's show a willingness to work with us to at least reduce the terrorism, I would like to see you support that statement. 15 of the 19 who made the suicide attacks were Saudis. Osama bin Laden is Saudi. Supposedly the attacks were motivated by his hatred of US bases on Saudi soil. The Saudis are still granting visas for travel to the USA by way of various travel agencies, not requiring any screening by our embassy there. The Saudis have been financing much of the terrorism in the Middle East. And it is they who have been putting up money for the families of suicide bomber, not Saddam Hussein. I don't know what is going on. None of my information sources are reliable. I don't know of any reliable information sources. But I smell a rat. Something is rotten in Copenhagen. I believe there is a good chance that if we attack Saddam Hussein, we will be attacking the wrong guy. We just cannot go about attacking anyone that MAY have done something we don't like. Before one starts killing hundreds of thousands of people, we need to be dead certain we are hitting the right target. Of course I'm such a crackpot that I don't believe that any Muslim extremists attacked us on 9-11. The Gadianton Robbers set it up, perhaps contracted it out, and they are setting up the Moslems to take the fall. I think Osama bin Laden and the others have been framed. Of course, what do I know? As I already said, I don't have access to reliable sources of information. And I think it is entirely possible that you don't either. What if George W. Bush did it? heh, heh John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
John said: I don't know what is going on. None of my information sources are reliable. I don't know of any reliable information sources. But I smell a rat. Something is rotten in Copenhagen. Taken out of context, it sounds like you are one poor lost soul. ;-) Here, have some chocolate donuts: oo oo hee hee Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
