Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Sorry, you're right. The incident happened in Colombia (not Columbia), but Betancourt was from Venezuela. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: One of the alleged witnesses to hearing Castro claim he was a Communist was supposed to be Rómulo Betancourt of Colombia,

RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Psychic Marc- [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments etc. -Confused Marc- Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened If you can't see how

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the Church: to try to shut you up by

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right

[ZION] Trivioid for Canada watchers

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Here's your trivioid for the day; I just heard this on the radio. Newfoundland has just changed their USPS/Canada Post joint state/province/territory designator, effective today, from NF to NL. That's supposed to reflect the term Newfoundland and Labrador. NF always did include Labrador, but

Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Who are you responding to? And what are you trying to say? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually it's sarcasm. If we as a Church are supposed to follow the teachings of the BOM, fine, than war is acceptable to fight aggression and to uphold freedoms. But if we as a Church are now saying lets do

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. 1.The US interfered with Cuba and controlled it since it received nominal independence from Spain. These interests included industrial (sugar and other agriculture) interests and organized

[ZION] Notice from Listowner

2002-10-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
Re: Bouncing messages Dear Listmember, A number of you have been having trouble receiving list mail from time to time. Still others have been automatically removed from the list. For this I apologize. The problem in most cases is bouncing mail. A soft bounce occurs when a mail box is full,

RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Marc

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least psychoanalysis, of Castro does not constitute history as it happened, but rather is an ideological gloss, then I'm powerless to help. However, as you take great pleasure in tweaking Americans, I expect that's what you're doing

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Glad to hear it. I have to admit I never got to know many of the locals when I lived there, but I had a companion from Provo, and he'd had no idea. That just goes to show you the power of anecdotal statistics, I guess. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 01:38 AM 10/20/2002, Marc wrote: all built on

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). Paul Osborne wrote: Sorry Marc, I think

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc writes: Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed al ong stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it. Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary

Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint? No. You cannot be a Democrat and hold a temple recommend. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET

Re: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
Hmmm - my husband is writhing on the ground in severe pain, muttering something about Section 121, so I'll just send this off for him. He does some mighty strange things sometimes. But he's a High Priest, and that seems pretty par for the course for those guys. Nancy, Jon's wife Section 121?

[ZION] Thank you, Mark John!!!

2002-10-21 Thread chet-el
Before I forget (some have senior moments; I have senior months) I thank Mark-with-a-K and John-with-a-BLT for getting me back on Topica (motto: We hate Mark Chet) so I can read y'all's missives and (when I think I might not embarass myself) participate. Thank you again!!

Re: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?

2002-10-21 Thread Jon Spencer
I hate to burst your bubble, but truth must prevail! I am 54, and most people peg me at between 35 and 40. Of course, it does help that I have teenage boys, and that I beat all of the TQ members on our 25 mile bike ride last Saturday by a total of about 30 minutes, with 15 minutes coming on the

Re: [ZION] Elder's Quorum

2002-10-21 Thread Jon Spencer
Paul Osborne wrote: O my. Shame on you Gary for listening to that kind of music. I prefer Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple. Most of my mates in the EQ do too. It's nice to have things in common. :-) U I, too, love Led Zeppelin, from my past days

Re: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?

2002-10-21 Thread Jon Spencer
Actually, I think that he may have been referring to the quote in Section 121 about High Priests, Many are called, but most are dozin' And if he tries any of that unrighteous dominion stuff around here Nancy, wife of the still squirming Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Hmmm - my husband is

RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. [...] 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., whose Clark Memorandum diverted early 20th

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Jon Spencer
Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan? Cool! I never thought about it that way. But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting. Does that mean I will someday lose my temple recommend? Jon So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc wrote: Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It Consp iracy_ and many other book. No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Marc

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Stephen- If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least psychoanalysis, of Castro does not constitute history as it happened, but rather is an ideological gloss, then I'm powerless to help. However, as you take great pleasure in tweaking Americans, I

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. [...] 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., whose Clark

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Only if you disagree with the view of middle-class conservative USAmericans, it would seem to me, from some of the responses to bare [ooh, there's that naughty word again] facts of history. Jon Spencer wrote: Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan? Cool! I never

Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war

2002-10-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 11:03 AM, Monday, 10/21/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint? Not in my opinion. A conservative Democrat, yes. A liberal Democrat is a socialist. And socialism is

Re: [ZION] War in Iraq

2002-10-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas centrifugal technology (which it

Re: [ZION] War in Iraq

2002-10-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7 years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush should use Carter this time, too ;-)

Cuba and Ideology (was Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out ofTurkey)

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
When I wrote in a couple of posts, stay tune, this is what I had in mind. I'd be interested in seeing how anyone can read this general, almost bland,US-based historical source (the World Book Encyclopedia) and not come to the conclusion I have: that the U.S. has controlled, or tried to control,

[ZION] Cult of personality

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
When people commit what I call spiritual harrassment by claiming that the views of a particular general authority are doctrinal, and lose all sense of balance, promoting almost solely the views of whatever that person wrote, and challenging critics' support of the Church when they object, I

[ZION] I Just Hate It

2002-10-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
I just hate it when Marc Schindler and Stephen Beecroft get too intense with each other. I usually ends in one or the other taking a lengthy leave of absence from the list. And of course, since their contributions are among the chief reasons this is such a good list, I really hate to see it.

Re: [ZION] Quorum Brotherhood

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
I've tried everything I can think of. Every time I've been an elder's president, quorum brotherhood has been a top priority of mine. It used to be a lesson in the manual once a year or so. But I've never won a convert. Strange. I would think that quorum brotherhood would be easier to forge

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). I don't know if Bush is listening to US

[ZION] Cult of personality

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Why balance and consensus (correlation) is so important: [Joseph Fielding McConkie, Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions: 178] QUESTIONWhy can General Authorities disagree on doctrinal matters? ANSWERIt comes as a matter of surprise to many people that Church leaders do not

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said* he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a

Re: [ZION] War in Iraq

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 05:39 PM 10/21/2002, JWR wrote: At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't de pend on your political views. -- Marc A. Schindler Neither does my testimony depend on your political views--so what? Why don't you address the sources themselves rather than

Re: [ZION] War in Iraq

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
John W. Redelfs wrote: At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7 years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush should

Re: [ZION] I Just Hate It

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Please don't let it bother you too much, John. I call it intellectual arm-wrestling. Stephen and I may disagree and may even get under each other's collar sometimes, but we've broken bread together (literally; I was so cheap that I treated him to lunch at the cheapest joint in Redmond...) so are

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Good point. Let me rephrase what I said and say explicit ideologies. See my definition of ideology in a post I made after you wrote this one. John W. Redelfs wrote: At 04:55 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't like got called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this guy was in over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do? I raise my hand to sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process.

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
That is fair enough. To me they are usually one and the same. An implicit assumption on my part, I'll admit. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 04:55 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped *anyone* who would protect their interests,

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said* he'd been a Communist

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall into that trap. (I take it that in

RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Marc

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Stephen, if you contribute something positive, I'll comment on it. Otherwise, why bother? -Stephen- Well, that's not very generous of you. After all, I often comment on your posts. :) -Marc- You skipped the word positive. On the contrary, that was my point. I *still* comment on your

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall

[ZION] Blessed are the peacemakers

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I was personally impressed by a sister's notes taken on Elder Nelson's talk, which she turned into a RS visiting teacher's message, so I thought I'd share it with Zion-L, with her permission, of course. Sister Meijerink-Sensor is originally from the U.S. but married a Dutchman and moved to the

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Steven Montgomery wrote: At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
What about it? When have I ever denied Castro is a Communist? His early life is shadowy (unlike Ché Gueverra, about whom we know a fair bit), but for the sake of argument let's agree that he was christened a Communist while a babe in arms. What difference does that make to the point I've been

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think the answer to that is self-explanatory. To quote a non-GA, listen to the sounds of silence. (Marlin K. Jensen gives a hint in his interview, incidentally). And just so I'm not totally opaque here, I'm not talking about your specific claim that Castro was a Communist. I don't know why this