Sorry, you're right. The incident happened in Colombia (not Columbia), but
Betancourt was from Venezuela.
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
One of the
alleged witnesses to hearing Castro claim he was a Communist was supposed
to be
Rómulo Betancourt of Colombia,
-Psychic Marc-
[Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless
pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments etc.
-Confused Marc-
Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting
him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened
If you can't see how
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.
Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:
Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the Church: to
try to shut you up by
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.
Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:
Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right
Here's your trivioid for the day; I just heard this on the radio.
Newfoundland has just changed their USPS/Canada Post joint
state/province/territory designator, effective today, from NF to NL.
That's supposed to reflect the term Newfoundland and Labrador. NF
always did include Labrador, but
Who are you responding to? And what are you trying to say?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually it's sarcasm.
If we as a Church are supposed to follow the teachings of the BOM, fine, than war is
acceptable to fight aggression and to uphold freedoms. But if we as a Church are now
saying lets do
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I
see the history of Cuba.
1.The US interfered with Cuba and controlled it since it received nominal
independence from Spain. These interests included industrial (sugar and other
agriculture) interests and organized
Re: Bouncing messages
Dear Listmember,
A number of you have been having trouble receiving list mail from time to
time. Still others have been automatically removed from the list. For
this I apologize. The problem in most cases is bouncing mail.
A soft bounce occurs when a mail box is full,
-Stephen-
If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least
psychoanalysis, of Castro does not constitute history as it
happened, but rather is an ideological gloss, then I'm
powerless to help. However, as you take great pleasure
in tweaking Americans, I expect that's what you're doing
Glad to hear it. I have to admit I never got to know many of the locals when I
lived there, but I had a companion from Provo, and he'd had no idea. That just
goes to show you the power of anecdotal statistics, I guess.
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 01:38 AM 10/20/2002, Marc wrote:
all built on
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not
the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you
know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than
sterling record).
Paul Osborne wrote:
Sorry Marc,
I think
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Marc writes:
Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed
al ong
stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it.
Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and
Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal
democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint?
No. You cannot be a Democrat and hold a temple recommend. ;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GET
Hmmm - my husband is writhing on the ground in severe pain, muttering
something about Section 121, so I'll just send this off for him. He
does
some mighty strange things sometimes. But he's a High Priest, and that
seems pretty par for the course for those guys.
Nancy, Jon's wife
Section 121?
Before I forget (some have senior moments; I have senior months) I thank
Mark-with-a-K and John-with-a-BLT for getting me back on Topica (motto:
We hate Mark Chet) so I can read y'all's missives and (when I think I
might not embarass myself) participate.
Thank you again!!
I hate to burst your bubble, but truth must prevail! I am 54, and most
people peg me at between 35 and 40. Of course, it does help that I have
teenage boys, and that I beat all of the TQ members on our 25 mile bike ride
last Saturday by a total of about 30 minutes, with 15 minutes coming on the
Paul Osborne wrote:
O my. Shame on you Gary for listening to that kind of music. I prefer Led
Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple. Most
of my mates in the EQ do too. It's nice to have things in common. :-)
U I, too, love Led Zeppelin, from my past days
Actually, I think that he may have been referring to the quote in Section
121 about High Priests, Many are called, but most are dozin' And if he
tries any of that unrighteous dominion stuff around here
Nancy, wife of the still squirming Jon
Paul Osborne wrote:
Hmmm - my husband is
-Marc-
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a
summary post of how I see the history of Cuba.
[...]
6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the
Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,
whose Clark Memorandum diverted early 20th
Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan?
Cool! I never thought about it that way.
But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting. Does that
mean I will someday lose my temple recommend?
Jon
So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Marc wrote:
Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and
Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It
Consp iracy_
and many other book.
No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention
Stephen Beecroft wrote:
-Stephen-
If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least
psychoanalysis, of Castro does not constitute history as it
happened, but rather is an ideological gloss, then I'm
powerless to help. However, as you take great pleasure
in tweaking Americans, I
Stephen Beecroft wrote:
-Marc-
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a
summary post of how I see the history of Cuba.
[...]
6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the
Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,
whose Clark
Only if you disagree with the view of middle-class conservative USAmericans, it
would seem to me, from some of the responses to bare [ooh, there's that naughty
word again] facts of history.
Jon Spencer wrote:
Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan?
Cool! I never
At 11:03 AM, Monday, 10/21/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal
democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint?
Not in my opinion. A conservative Democrat, yes. A liberal Democrat is a
socialist. And socialism is
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can
add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the
accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas
centrifugal technology (which it
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long
crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7
years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush
should use Carter this time, too ;-)
When I wrote in a couple of posts, stay tune, this is what I had in mind. I'd
be interested in seeing how anyone can read this general, almost bland,US-based
historical source (the World Book Encyclopedia) and not come to the conclusion I
have: that the U.S. has controlled, or tried to control,
When people commit what I call spiritual harrassment by claiming that
the views of a particular general authority are doctrinal, and lose all
sense of balance, promoting almost solely the views of whatever that
person wrote, and challenging critics' support of the Church when they
object, I
I just hate it when Marc Schindler and Stephen Beecroft get too intense
with each other. I usually ends in one or the other taking a lengthy leave
of absence from the list. And of course, since their contributions are
among the chief reasons this is such a good list, I really hate to see it.
I've tried everything I can think of. Every time I've been an elder's
president, quorum brotherhood has been a top priority of mine. It used
to
be a lesson in the manual once a year or so. But I've never won a
convert.
Strange. I would think that quorum brotherhood would be easier to forge
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was
raising not
the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How
do you
know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less
than
sterling record).
I don't know if Bush is listening to US
Why balance and consensus (correlation) is so important: [Joseph
Fielding McConkie, Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions:
178]
QUESTIONWhy can General Authorities disagree on doctrinal matters?
ANSWERIt comes as a matter of surprise to many people that Church
leaders do not
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a
At 05:39 PM 10/21/2002, JWR wrote:
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can
add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the
accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely),
so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one
reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous,
temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't
de pend on
your political views.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Neither does my testimony depend on your political views--so what? Why don't
you address the sources themselves rather than
John W. Redelfs wrote:
At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long
crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7
years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush
should
Please don't let it bother you too much, John. I call it intellectual
arm-wrestling. Stephen and I may disagree and may even get under each other's
collar sometimes, but we've broken bread together (literally; I was so cheap that
I treated him to lunch at the cheapest joint in Redmond...) so are
Good point. Let me rephrase what I said and say explicit ideologies. See my
definition of ideology in a post I made after you wrote this one.
John W. Redelfs wrote:
At 04:55 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They
I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't like got
called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this guy was in
over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do? I raise my hand to
sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process.
That is fair enough. To me they are usually one and the same. An implicit
assumption on my part, I'll admit.
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 04:55 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped
*anyone* who would protect their interests,
At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with
idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
he'd been a Communist
At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall
into that
trap. (I take it that in
-Marc-
Stephen, if you contribute something positive, I'll comment
on it. Otherwise, why bother?
-Stephen-
Well, that's not very generous of you. After all, I often
comment on your posts. :)
-Marc-
You skipped the word positive.
On the contrary, that was my point. I *still* comment on your
At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall
I was personally impressed by a sister's notes taken on Elder Nelson's
talk, which she turned into a RS visiting teacher's message, so I
thought I'd share it with Zion-L, with her permission, of course. Sister
Meijerink-Sensor is originally from the U.S. but married a Dutchman and
moved to the
Steven Montgomery wrote:
At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with
idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether
What about it? When have I ever denied Castro is a Communist? His early life is
shadowy (unlike Ché Gueverra, about whom we know a fair bit), but for the sake of
argument let's agree that he was christened a Communist while a babe in arms.
What difference does that make to the point I've been
I think the answer to that is self-explanatory. To quote a non-GA, listen to the
sounds of silence. (Marlin K. Jensen gives a hint in his interview,
incidentally). And just so I'm not totally opaque here, I'm not talking about
your specific claim that Castro was a Communist. I don't know why this
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