Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: But my whole point is that it is SO easy to sit back and second guess what might have been or could have been or whatever 57 years ago. But all those who do this are not in the position that President Truman was. Truman fired

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: EVERY ward or branch has a little old man or lady who speaks in tongues every fast and testimony meeting! Usually they spew forth sermons about fire and brimstone. Of course, everyone understands what they are saying even before they speak, since

[ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Steven Montgomery
Perhaps Marc should ask himself the question why Utah appears to be dominated by one party politics. Perhaps Utah just leads the way in setting trends. The following analysis of our recent elections comes from www.citizenslobby.com: Quote AMERICA MOVES RIGHTWARD To the chagrin of the liberal

Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Dan R Allen
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant threat,before we encourage it to stand down and live peacefully among the nations of the world? John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat

Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Dan R Allen
Dan: What do you consider as first? IIRC, we did start troop movements, but the first bombs didn't drop until after the coalition was in place. Jon: That's my point. it was a LOOONNGGG time between the two events. We are not even near the point where bombs would drop, and President Bush

Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 23:18 11/8/2002 -0800, Stacey wrote: Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Certainly not at a border crossing! Till the ever-watchful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Dan R Allen
Marc: I don't think so. The foreigners had to get their assets into place, too. It wasn't unilateral. In fact, it's ironic that you're showing this particular kind of ignorance on the topic -- it was precisely because the Saudis allowed foreign, non-Moslem soldiers on its soil that set bin

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-11 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 09:31 11/9/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: I was in one of the classrooms at Parirenwatwa Hospital (formerly Sir Sanford Fleming Hospital) in Harare, Zimbabwe, about 7 or 8 years ago, and saw a display of what happened when a janitor picked up a small vial of caesium powder and put it in his

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-11 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 12:45 11/9/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: The primary target was Kokura, a major munitions manufacturing center. Kokura was obscured by clouds and smoke (leftover from an earlier raid on a nearby city) so the bombadier couldn't get an exact target despite three separate passes. The secondary

Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Munther Unes. A very fine gentleman if ever I have met one. Till

[ZION] Just War

2002-11-11 Thread Steven Montgomery
An interesting commentary by a Catholic scholar on just war. Note especially the emphasis he puts on non-combatant immunity considering our recent discussions, pro and con, regarding this issue: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=11136 -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . .

[ZION] Some 11/11 thoughts

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
We used to be rather thin-skinned about criticism in Canada. While there's still a lot of that, as these letters in today's Flop and Flail show, in response to the right-wing cult figure Jonah Greenberg's half tongue-in-cheek column in National Review that Canada should be invaded for its own

[ZION] The USA's contribution to the poppy as token of Remembrance Day

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I've been concentrating Remembrance Day as a Canadian formal stat holiday, but it is also Armistice Day in the U.S. And, though most Canadians don't seem to know this, ironically the poppy came to be popularized by a U.S. lady. I only ever see it in Commonwealth countries, but my father-in-law

Re: [ZION] Flying Lessons (was Taliban in Pakistan)

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: Very good! Another week in Moose Jaw for our boy genius :-) Larry Jackson: I think he'll enjoy his fortnight with the Moose Javians. Marc: My cousin's husband ... is tired of rotary wing and wants to switch to fixed wing. Larry: I work for a

Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a moral tale by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: I want to see more of this kind of stuff.

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote: Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling that that is not healthy

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stacy Smith
Very good! Stacy. At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United

Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history

2002-11-11 Thread Stacy Smith
I realize that now after discussing this with Muhammad. Stacy. At 03:46 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a moral tale by a

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? The leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS Republicans?

Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I agree -- the 101st airborne, which is a light division and can be airlifted, as its name implies, was the first *foreign* military on the scene, but they were not the first military forces there. Dan R Allen wrote: Marc: I don't think so. The foreigners had to get their assets into place,

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
It's not hard to shield against caesium; I wouldn't worry if I were her. The energy is less than 1 MEV by a long shot; only a few hundred thousand KEV, if I recall correctly. Enough to ionize upon contact, but it doesn't require much more than a lead-lined room to keep it shielded. Elmer L.

[ZION] Madsen claims

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
I enjoy listening to Truman Madsen. Though he tends to sappy and over-the-top rhetoric, he is knowledgeable and pretty enjoyable to listen to. I'm listening to some lectures he gave on Joseph Smith, wherein he references some things I'm not familiar with and have been unable to turn up on

Re: [ZION] Just War

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
In the Catholic Church the concept of a moral war was first set out by Augustine some 1600 years ago. His definition was somewhat harsher than our's, and also that of the modern RC Church. Steven Montgomery wrote: An interesting commentary by a Catholic scholar on just war. Note especially the

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe
One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern for this day,

RE: [ZION] Madsen claims

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe
Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that Joseph Smith said that the day would come that only Latter-day Saint women would want to have children. --- Can't locate such a refernce. Will continue searching. --- 2. William Dimick (Demick?

RE: [ZION] Madsen claims

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe
Here's the other reference-- Joseph Smith made many prophetic statements that last to our day. Some of them seemed preposterous at the time. Lillie Freeze recalls one such. He said the time would come when none but the women of the Latter-day Saints would be willing to bear children.fn In

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States.

RE: [ZION] Madsen claims

2002-11-11 Thread Johnna Cornett
the huntingtons were converts from new hampshire, and arrived in the kirtland period. dimick's sister zina is one of the famous zinas my daughter is named after. Jim Cobabe wrote: Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that Joseph

RE: [ZION] War against all of Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Johnna Cornett
I know an entire family that would fit that description. Their 8-year-old daughter is in my daughter's class at school. We became friends when both girls were in kindergarten together. Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: Tell me the name of just

[ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... Stephen John W. Redelfs wrote: It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Steven Montgomery wrote: At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote: Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Stephen Beecroft favored us with: If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the Seattle area to Prince

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? Well, for starters the Republican congressman who publicly

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the counsel we're given now. Jim Cobabe wrote: One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. Everyone else will follow the adversary.

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- [Previously] One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. [Now] Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies that belief in x is in defiance of y. Okay, that's reasonable. I don't agree with it, but

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe
John, I'm living at my folk's place in central Utah these days. Not doing much of anything--I've just been hanging around half-heartedly looking for gainful employment. I can come and find you just about any time. It would be great fun to get together--how about a temple session at Provo,

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Tom Matkin
Marc A. Schindler wrote: Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I say we'll do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the highway you'll be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about a 45 minute side trip

[ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)

2002-11-11 Thread Gary Smith
Knowing no one is perfect, I try to judge a person for all that they try to do, even if their choices end up occasionally being wrong. Truman chose not to continue the Korean War into China, because he realized a few things: First, they outnumbered us by hundreds of millions. Second, we had just

[ZION] War against Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Gary Smith
Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against

Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Don't worry, John, they all look the same anyway ;-) But it is a nice, green campus -- kind of like a university. Stephen was a good host when I visited there. Sadly illness has prevented return trips, although my minister has been down since to speak at the Microsoft world government leaders

[ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-11 Thread Gary Smith
The saints tend to magnify the doctrines and truths that the living prophet does. Pres Hinckley speaks little about fire and brimstone (except for abusive husbands and fathers), and speaks much on hope and joy. He is giving us the direction we should generally go, while not forgetting what his

Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
It is kind of rough. If he leaves from Skagway, he takes the Alaska Highway to just across the BC/Yukon border, then head uth to Prince Rupert, hit the Coquahalla Highway to Vancouver -- it's like a big backwards C, whereas if he goes through Grande Prairie AB (where I think Kilometre 0 is on the

Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Edmonton to Prince Rupert depends a lot on the weather. Good weather -- probably 10 hours. Bad weather...well, who knows. The freeway from Edmonton (the Yellowhead) peters out around Hinton, as I recall, but it's still good highway through Jasper National Park and in B.C. BC speed limits are only

Re: [ZION] War against Islam

2002-11-11 Thread Stacy Smith
I agree that the Islamists are gaining power. Stacy. At 09:25 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, you wrote: Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians

RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe
I understand that the Church does not endorse any political policy, except in cases where a moral issue is involved. There is a strong effort to avoid the suggestion that the platform of a particular political party represents or has the unilateral backing of the Church. This has been the

[ZION] Carl Sagan quote

2002-11-11 Thread Cousin Bill
I read this and thought I'd pass it on. "If science were explained to the average person in a way that is accessible and exciting, there would be no room for pseudoscience. But there is a kind of Gresham's Law by which in popular culture the bad science drives out the good. And