Re: [ZION] Dr Red Green was right all along

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Nobody seems to know for sure, but it's believed that when you rip the duct tape off (ouch!) it brings with it the viruses that are believed to be causing the wart in the first place. I'm sure it was one of these accidental things that happen in medical research sometimes, and get written up in

RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 20:41 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij wrote: Paul Osborne wrote: --- Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. --- Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your

[ZION] Iraq

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Larry, here's another quote from you, this time from The Economist (14/12/02). It's also pretty clear and unequivocal in its language. This is from an article on p. 40, called Lethal poker: This partly explains why America, controversially, arranged for the circulating copy of the dossier [that

[ZION] trolling in the Xorg

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
This is getting addictive. Someone asked if Randy Bachman is still an active LDS. They thought his Christmas takeoff of Takin' Care of Business was shallow. Of course, it's a no-win situation -- if he's inactive, that's good, if he's active, then he's shallow. My response: ==

Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread George Cobabe
geez Paul - and I was beginning to have such confidence in your doctrinal judgment. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Amen! John, you and I

Re: [ZION] the end from the beginning

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
There was no beginning and there will be no end, there was no first Father and there will never be a last Father Notive how I left out the period at the end of the above sentence? grin Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno

Re: [ZION] Nature of God

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
I tend to go with the odds and believe that He was not likely a Savior like Jesus A safe bet. You win. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com

Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Jon Spencer favored us with: And I'm not trying to be cute (only my wife sometimes makes the mistake of thinking that I can be). I believe that there are laws that God must follow or He ceases to be God. That is correct. --JWR

Re: [ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies

2002-12-20 Thread Geoff FOWLER
Jim mentioned: There also seem to be a number of CES employees who aptly fit the description of wolves among the flock. while Jon added: And we have found some in our stake. When they are discovered, they are gone. Now! While I can see how perhaps a few BYU professors have become,

[ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Coincidence that this appeared in today's issue of Science, one of the two best-known and most prestigious general science journals in the anglophone world (Rosenberg, et. al. Science:298, 20/12/2002:2381). The article is called Genetic Structure of Human Populations by a multinational team from

[ZION] Church News Article

2002-12-20 Thread Steven Montgomery
Hi guys (and gals), I've been very busy of late, way behind on my email, but thought I would mention that my step-son, Eric was mentioned in a Church News Article of Dec. 14, 2002. Eric, for those who may not know, was a recipient of a Make A Wish gift, a very large log playhouse/doghouse.

[ZION] An Alice in Wonderland Defence

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Hilarious story on As It Happens this evening (CBC Radio One). A university in Missouri (I didn't catch the name of which one) has been accused by a judge, who ruled against them in a tort case, as putting up an Alice in Wonderland defence where words mean only what I say they mean. The state

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 04:15 12/20/2002 +0800, His Grace, Bishop Mark wrote: Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're above my visual range. Hey wait, those are my lines. John, Stephen's stealing my schtick. Can't you make him play nice? Doggone it, would you folks just hold

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-20 Thread George Cobabe
You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and therefore not the supreme entity. That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to

Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
It's hard to visualize something that transcends our physical experience, and that's the problem here. God's time has also been likened to one eternal round, and ANE peoples tended to think of time in cyclical form, rather than as a one-way arrow like we do today. Jon Spencer wrote: Paul

[ZION] Trolling on exmormon.org

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I have no intention of engaging in dialogue on exmormon.com, I just wanna have fun. So here's a post I just made on Steve Benson's thread about Nephi's head or some silly thing... [oh, for those who may not know, cricket made a prophecy that the Morg, as they like to call the Church, will

Re: [ZION] Nature of God

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have an opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or was he a man like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal parents? And, does it matter? Someday Jeffry Ross's exalted son(s) will place

Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne favored us with: Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. This is correct. --JWR // /// ZION

Re: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
This is a common tradition (the term carob was eating away at the back of my head, trying to get something out, and when Mij mentioned St. John's Bread, I finally remembered that there is a tradition that what John the Baptist ate in the desert was locust beans, not locusts. Locust bean is another

[ZION] Tom Murphy

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I had forwarded the latest FAIR newsletter (www.fairlds.org if you're interested, and click on publications for the latest issue. There's a Christmas message there, too, by someone y'all might know) to my Dad, amongst others, with a foreword specifically about the Tom Murphy issue. Here's his

Re: [ZION] Nature of God

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Jeffrey Ross favored us with: Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have an opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or was he a man like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal parents? And, does it matter? It is an interesting

Re: [ZION] Where do old hippies go?

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 13:50 12/19/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: I thought this one was good for a chuckle... http://www.globeandmail.ca/series/cartoon/19thuedcar.html Sad but true. I think Ithaca is like the elephant graveyard for these folks. Somebody once remarked about witnessing the death of a

[ZION] Oooops

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
John W. Redelfs favored us with: Natural Law is a concept, something intangible but real. God is a person. It is very hard to worship intangible concepts. The traditional Christian world has been trying to worship an intangible God for nearly 2 millennia, and it has NOT worked out very well

Re: [ZION] Dr Red Green was right all along

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 22:02 12/19/2002 -0500, Princess Val queried: OK--my question--how DOES the duct tape work on a wart? Very well, thank you. Actually, warts are aerobic viruses, I'm told, and need oxygen to thrive. Duct tape would effectively snufficate the little boogers, I suppose. Till

[ZION] Notice from Listowner

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
The Zion list is moving. Because of an unacceptable number of problems at Topica, I am moving the Zion list to SmartGroups. (http://www.smartgroups.com/index.cfm?) Also, because the software at SmartGroups will not accept a list name of only four characters, while hosted at SmartGroups the

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne favored us with: What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyway, it is

[ZION] Iraq

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
The Blob and Snail has a good section today -- a backgrounder on the whole Iraqi inspections situation: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/backgrounder/iraq/stories/faq.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland “Knowledge may give weight, but

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
George Cobabe wrote: You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and therefore not the supreme entity. A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: This is an

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Actually we worship *in the name of Jesus Christ, but we have been told to worship only the Father, and to address our prayers only to Him. Paul Osborne wrote: Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't

[ZION] test

2002-12-20 Thread Steven Montgomery
Test -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After

Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
I'm glad to hear that George. Keep it up. :-) Paul O On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:26:42 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: geez Paul - and I was beginning to have such confidence in your doctrinal judgment. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL

[ZION] Merry Christmas

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Absolutely silly. So perfect for the holiday season... [have your sound turned on] http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland “Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 00:50 12/20/2002 -0900, the venerable BLT wrote: There is a law which God must obey, one that is above him. Call it natural law or anything else you like. Because mankind is at an infantile stage of development compared with God, we probably don't even know what the laws are by which God

Re: [ZION] can't be a sealer

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne favored us with: No one got back on the subject of why a man can't be a sealer in the temple if he has been divorced even by no fault of his own. For example, my mother a long time ago divorced my father so she could run off and be a lesbian, hence she was excommunicated. My father

[ZION] Fwd: Fw: What is an American?

2002-12-20 Thread Stacy Smith
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:05:56 EST Subject: Fwd: Fw: What is an American? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 124 Hi Sis, I thought you might enjoy this... Love, G Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Full-name: CAMELDANCR

Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /

RE: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Jim Cobabe
Apparently an early Jewish/Christian sect who called themselves Ebionites claimed to have originated from the pre-Christian Nazarite discipline, and among other interesting things, argued that Jesus and John the Baptist were vegetarians. Some believe the Locust/Carob controversy might have

RE: [ZION] can't be a sealer

2002-12-20 Thread Jim Cobabe
Yes, even the Church recognizes that there is some inherent flaw in the character of people who are divorced. We are damaged goods, and it takes time to make the necessary repairs. To me the policy is obviously a judgement of my character. I have been informed many times since becoming

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-20 Thread Jon Spencer
Stephen Beecroft wrote: He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. Many LDSers? Many? Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not down here is the Solid South. Who

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Stephen- I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. -Chet- He cannot lie. He cannot disobey any of his own commandments. He

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Jon- God cannot rob justice to pay mercy. How's that? Nope. Another false-by-definition, as well as (I think) a misquotation of scripture, which says that *mercy* cannot rob justice. I already brought up the example that God cannot save people in their sins, which is clearly a

RE: [ZION] can't be a sealer

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- No one got back on the subject of why a man can't be a sealer in the temple if he has been divorced even by no fault of his own. I don't know why. I don't think it matters. Being a sealer is not a right, and in the strict sense is not even a privilege. It is a calling, just like being

RE: [ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc- Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to 5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which

Re: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
That's pretty well my understanding, too, although I didn't know it might have originated with the Elbionites -- I thought it was during the Middle Ages when various Bibles mention it. But again, in the Greek New Testament the word for locust is akpides, from which we also get the modern word

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Paul Osborne wrote: Paul Osborne favored us with: What do you mean we don't worship Christ?

RE: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. [...] I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: [...]

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I said earlier that

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread George Cobabe
Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven

RE: [ZION] can't be a sealer

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Jim Cobabe favored us with: I don't care what extra impositions and rules it takes for me to show myself approved. I'll be happy to do whatever the Lord says. It's worth it. Not only that, but the last time I attended the Provo temple I actually felt the presence of the Holy Ghost even

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne favored us with: I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: “They Spoke to Us,” Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 “President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship

Re: [ZION] Article in Science on genetic diversity

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Within-population differences among individuals account for 93 to 95% of genetic variation; differences among major groups constitute only 3 to 5%. Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
First Presidency Message A Testimony of the Son of God Ensign, December 2002 By President Gordon B. Hinckley We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
George, You're welcome to take up your differences with President Hinkley if you like. As for me and my house, we will worship Christ. Paul O On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:49:27 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

2002-12-20 Thread George Cobabe
I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was anything more

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread George Cobabe
I appreciate the offer, however I would be interested in your take on the scripture and what it means. I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with regard to his verse. How do you reconcile the two? George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with regard to his verse. How do you reconcile the two? I've got to go to bed now. I'm absolutely exhausted and sick too, again. I'll just say that the difference between the three members of the Godhead boils down to one fact, and

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
Stephen E. Robinson, “Are Mormons Christians?” New Era, May 1998, 41 “Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern prophets and

Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

2002-12-20 Thread Paul Osborne
Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign, May 1977, 26 “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for