Re: [ZION] Moral War

2003-01-24 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 10:56 1/23/2003 -0900, BLT wrote: Fundamental principle: Self-defense is OK. Everything else is unlawful. 1) We defend ourselves even if it means shedding blood. 2) We never give offense. 3) We never fight except to preserve our lives. 4) We only fight when God commands us to fight. I

[ZION] Moral War

2003-01-24 Thread George Cobabe
John, et al, - as you can see I have tried to be more complete, in my answers than perhaps you acknowledge. In fact I have made some modifications to your list of understanding. Read the following from a previous post and then my comments at the end of this post. I would be interested in where

[ZION] Important questions

2003-01-24 Thread Gerald Smith
You've missed some important questions: Who has used these weapons against innocent peoples? Who has used these weapons on their own peoples? Who is more likely to sell these weapons to terrorists? Who has shown more restraint on using these weapons? We could ask about the days of Captain

[ZION] Moral War

2003-01-24 Thread Gerald Smith
I see Captain Moroni also living in such a time. He was fighting a corrupt government, but his cause was still just. You'll note that Pahoran was kicked out of power for a time, but the government was recovered (though never quite the same afteward). There's a good possibility that some corruption

[ZION] Important questions

2003-01-24 Thread Gerald Smith
Well, I hope we don't have to bomb Iraq. I hope we can get Saddam out of there without having to injure a single Iraqi individual, or risk our own troops. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family

[ZION] The Zion List Has Moved

2003-01-24 Thread John W. Redelfs
Dear Zionisti, The Zion list has moved from the Topica server to the SmartGroups server. Please send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am sorry for the inconvenience. John W. Redelfs, Listowner of Zionsbest [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [ZION] Moral War

2003-01-24 Thread Geoff FOWLER
Gary favored us with: Are the Republican House and Senate not right now discussing issues to stop charter-prohibited subject? They may be talking about it, but unless something is actually done, and laws are passed and enforced, then it doesn't make the world any safer for the innocents.

[ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Geoff FOWLER
Stephen, Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise.

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stacy Smith
I have been waiting to hear these kinds of sentiments for a long time! Bravo!!! Stacy. At 04:32 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Geoff- Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would

[ZION] This month's Ensign

2003-01-24 Thread hkpage
Can anyone out there in Utah help me out? I renewed our Ensign subscription a little too late it seems, and we'll be missing the February issues of the Ensign and Friend. I will be happy to send a check to cover the cost of the single issues of both magazines and postage if someone would be

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Geoff FOWLER
Stephen, I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. I had always thought that the term meant we were to love and forgive our fellowmen, no matter what they have

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Geoff- I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent

Re: [ZION] Important Questions

2003-01-24 Thread Jon Spencer
But Paul, come on now, be honest. how do you REALLY feel? Noj Paul Osborne wrote: Gee-wizz, John. I thought we weren't suppose to talk about Iraq? Remember the last flame war we had? Well, since we are about to go at it again I will only make one little itty bitty comment which is that I

Re: [ZION] Important questions

2003-01-24 Thread Jon Spencer
I concur, but we have to do more than get Saddam out of their. We have to have a different form of government, not another dictator, even one who was on our side. Jon Gerald Smith wrote: Well, I hope we don't have to bomb Iraq. I hope we can get Saddam out of there without having to injure a

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread George Cobabe
Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Jon Spencer
I read this article last night. Wasn't it wonderful?! If you haven't yet read it, get off this silly list and go read it right now. Jon - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: [ZION]

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Jon Spencer
Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of

Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stacy Smith
The old argument seems to be flaming again. What about the passage in the Bible that says, Esau have I hated. Even if it means, loved less, isn't that conditional? Stacy. At 07:13 PM 01/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From:

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Elder Nelson- Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. -George- Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is

RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love

2003-01-24 Thread Stacy Smith
I can't wait to read the article. I can't believe the guy agrees with me on this one. Stacy. At 11:09 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: -Geoff- I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they