Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are unable to back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about anything. The discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You have been unwilling to come up with anything to back up your statements. An

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
You might think of how Lamanites were described in the BofM. It was not based on race or lineage, rather on the state of righteousness. The membership of the group was constantly changing from one time to another. We recognize in the church the principle of adoption. We give the blessing and

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:13:22 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR members, but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best you can do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 07:14 AM 8/11/2003, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. This is a group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making

Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS

2003-08-14 Thread Jon Spencer
Dear John wrote: (my comments inserted) - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS Jim Cobabe wrote: The liberal perspective examined...

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 08:58 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, Grampa Bill wrote: Paul Osborne wrote: I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. Grampa Bill asks: Less tact than JR? Hard to believe! :-) Till says: Hard to conceive!

Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread Scott McGee
Right, that makes more sense. One is the process of melting metal from ore and working the metal, the other is more, uh, well, melting metal from ore, and, hmm, working the metal. Maybe that doesn't make much sense after all. Scott George Cobabe wrote: I think that there is a difference

Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...

2003-08-14 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
Why should those who follow God in this age or era expect a test which is different from that faced by people who follow God in any other age or era, if that is what you are saying? Most people do not have an opportunity to do great and special things for which their names will go down in

Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:36:49 -0800 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I found the article very frustrating. After reading the first half of it, I discovered that the second half was off the right side of my screen with no way to access it. Let's see. The Brethren ask us to:

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
delete it is, with a knowing smile on my face :-) George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:34:15 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL

Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo

2003-08-14 Thread Maj Tom Merrill
I have to admit that I didn't know that much about Nauvoo and what happened to the Saints until I read the 150 Years Ago Today series that began on Zion. It grew into what we now know as Gems. My ancestors were there alone with my wife's. (Please don't think that I'm announcing that I'm a great

[ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Who is keeping up on the DNA evidence supporting or refuting the Book of Mormon on the origins of the American Indian? I notice that there is some kind of symposium coming up on whether or not DNA evidence supports or refutes a middle eastern origin for Native Americans. Surely if Lehi was a

[ZION] Welcome back Rusty!

2003-08-14 Thread hkpage
Welcome back, Rusty! I'm sure that teaching seminary for 4 years was an amazing experience. It's good to see you on this list again. Heidi the fair ** For those of you who are long-time Zion members, you may remember me - Rusty Taylor. I've been on John's lists off and on

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
No, I do not. The idea that the DNA from a small group of about 20-30 people in the Lehi party would have a significant impact on the populations already in the Americas is hard to accept and understand. If you can somehow show what kind of DNA you are looking for you will already be way ahead

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:58:46 -0600 Steven Montgomery Who is claiming that Jesus was black? Ideas like this is why I tend to steer away from FAIR--in my experience I've found them to be a bunch of wannabe scholars but lacking in far too many areas. It was an anti who posted the link

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread R. Kent Francis
Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who were at various times in their history

Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo

2003-08-14 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
You know, it's interesting you mention the KKK. I was thinking of them when I wrote the part about Laws. The Grand Dragon Wizard, or whatever the big conehead is called, lives not 5 miles from where I live. The first weekend in August, they hold their White Pride Festival. This year, they had

[ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
I've been reading THE STORY OF THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS by James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, and I just read the part where the saints were forced to leave Nauvoo in February, 1846, months before their planned departure in April. I was especially moved by the story of the saints who were too

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:39:36 -0800 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt if you will get banned on this list, Paul. We are not PC. Of course, if you really tried --JWR Thanks JR, as I do try to be extra good around here. I do have to say though that I almost cried when I found

[ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Could these have been the Jaredites, Paul? Apparently they date back much further than the Olmec. What are the dates for the Tower of Babel anyway? --JWR --- Newsweek Story --- New World Pyramids; By Sharon Begley With Joseph Contreras in Lima

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Grampa Bill in Savannah
Paul Osborne wrote: I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. Grampa Bill asks: Less tact than JR? Hard to believe! :-) Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread Stacy Smith
It would be nice to have a repentance behavior; after all, there is for the church. Why not Fair? Stacy. At 01:23 PM 08/11/2003 -0800, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he

[ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently

Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo

2003-08-14 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
I didn't see the marriage thing as anything but that--but I'm not into conspiracy as many on this list are ;-). I was actually proud of little Dubyah that he had the guts to stand up for something like marriage. For me, I am glad to have heard the words, marriage is sacred spoken by the

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
George Cobabe wrote: That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Huh? I don't understand this at all. Zion and Mormon Thinkers are two completely different lists. --JWR

[ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS

2003-08-14 Thread Jim Cobabe
The liberal perspective examined... http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-07-31.cfm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:58:43 -0400 Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul Osborne wrote: I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. Grampa Bill asks: Less tact than JR? Hard to believe! :-) Love y'all, Grampa Bill in

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread Grampa Bill in Savannah
George Cobabe wrote of FAIR: It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. = Gramp Bill comments: Well, hrumph! What are we... chopped liver? Tried a lot of 'em. Zion's the best! Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:13:35 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you provide a reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? Hopefully a url!!! Go to the FAIR message board. I can hardly believe

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
While the statement quoted is the problem it is never the less the fact that for many, many years the idea of other peoples being there first has been a part of the belief of many people. A careful reading of 1st Nephi would lead you to believe that they were interacting with native people from

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Whoops, I am confused about some of the changes and going from one list to another some time ago. Please disregard what I said, I was wrong. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: Re:

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread Stacy Smith
In the first place, if they ever let me on again I would probably want to only receive mail and not send it unless I wrote the owner and asked if I could ask a question on this or that point. That way the emphasis wuld be on learning rather than socializing at all. Stacy. At 09:33 PM

Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Well let me try it again. When you work gold you do not change the chemical composition of the original metal - all you do is purify the material and make of it what you want. When you make steel you change the compostion of several metals and other ingredients and make a new metal. It is a

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
I am sure that if one wished to repent of their unacceptable behaviour they would be welcome. It is not the place, however, for political discussion. It is a very specialiazed list and interchange. Not much chit chat or arguing. It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been

[ZION] Book Burning--witchcraft

2003-08-14 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2003/08/06/local.20030806-sbt-MIC H-D6-Church_members_burn_.sto This link should take you to a story in our Tribune today about a group called Jesus Non-denomination Church that held a book burning. They burned Harry Potter, the Book of Mormon and other

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne wrote: Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. Also, I find the

Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: For me, I am glad to have heard the words, marriage is sacred spoken by the leader of our country (I wondered at that moment if he hadn't just gotten off the phone with Pres. Hinckley!). I agree that President Bush is either the most righteous man we have had for

Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Larry Jackson wrote: George Cobabe wrote: ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. ___ This is news to me. Never heard of a list called MormonThinkers. John? Larry Jackson I heard of

Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]

2003-08-14 Thread Chet Cox
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:23 GMT Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is news to me. Never heard of a list called MormonThinkers. Neither have I. Though I could think of a list or two which could be called MormonStinkers. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then

[ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Well they did not kick me for suggesting a minor point of doctrine that differed from many peoples beliefs. That is not very thin skinned, at least not as much as some. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11,

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you provide a reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? Hopefully a url!!! George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:11 PM

Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS

2003-08-14 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
I had to read this over a couple of times, and then ponder what this writer said before I could respond. My conclusion is that the writer is using flawed logic to make his case. He seems to be saying that we as LDS spend foolishly as long as we pay our tithing because we believe we will be

[ZION] power out

2003-08-14 Thread hkpage
I'll bet that Saints living in the areas affected by this huge power outage are either wishing that they were prepared to deal with something of this nature or thankful that they are indeed prepared. I know that my in-laws, who live in between Ottawa and Toronto, are indeed prepared and

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:34:15 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are unable to back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about anything. The discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You

[ZION] Are Mormons Modern Gnostics?

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Here is the Britannica Introduction to the article on Gnosticism: Gnosticism philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD. While Gnosticism drew from and influenced in turn many traditional religions, its effect was most clearly felt on nascent

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who

Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:28:14 -0800 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I heard of 'em. In fact, I'm on the Mormon Thinker's list. But Mormon Thinkers is a Johnny Come Lately list. Zion has been around since November of 1993. --JWR Give my regards to Andy, John. He booted me from the

Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Chopped Liver??? Well .. maybe not quite that. George - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL

[ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]

2003-08-14 Thread Larry Jackson
George Cobabe wrote: ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. ___ This is news to me. Never heard of a list called MormonThinkers. John? Larry Jackson

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread R. Kent Francis
Kent wonders: So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their descendents, or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their descendents, or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or that early Church leaders were making a gross generalization? Ronn!

Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Well perhaps it is news to me as well. I have been confused before. Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men. N ot just the Shadow, but surely John. George - Original Message - From: Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:57 AM

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:22:05 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, Paul I will forget it, especially if you will not just throw irresponsible statements and claims about just any old way. George Oh come on George, you're just trying to get me started. I'm not that dumb. I've

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread Chet Cox
Could mean that this is where all our principals came from. Our principal was Seminole. *jeep! --Chet Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states that they are the principal ancestors . . . So Kent wondered: So does that mean

[ZION] Mormon Faith in America

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
I ran across a book review of a work entitled MORMON FAITH IN AMERICA by Maxine Hanks and Jeanne Kinney Williams. It is a children's book for grade 6 and up. Is this the same Maxine Hanks that was disciplined by the Church in 1993 as part of the September Six? If so, curious that an apostate

Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:16 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George The

Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...

2003-08-14 Thread Jon Spencer
He works off of a checklist. Broken heart Contrite Spirit Ordinances completed Not a member of silly email lists Jon Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Luke 18:13. Again, does God work off a checklist, or does He desire a broken heart and a contrite spirit?

Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...

2003-08-14 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Luke 18:13. Again, does God work off a checklist, or does He desire a broken heart and a contrite spirit? At 08:21 PM 8/11/03 -0400, Jon Spencer wrote: He works off of a checklist. __x_ Broken heart __x_ Contrite Spirit __x_ Ordinances completed Not a member

Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
I think you mean steel and if so you are correct. However the problem was with people who do not believe that. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. This is a group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR members, but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best you can do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the message boards then you need to correct yourself and tell it correctly. Now it you

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Paul Osborne
On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:07:41 -0700 Rick Mathis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 08:14 AM 8/11/2003 -0500, Paul wrote: Anyway, I'm going to shut up now because I seem to get banned just about every where I go. Thank you very much, Paul. Rick Mathis You're welcome. blahh Paul O [EMAIL

Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...

2003-08-14 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
At 12:58 AM 7/13/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: It says after all we can do, not after all we do. That's not to say we don't repent and repent often. I'll give you a scenario. Suppose someone commits sin no. 760 of the day but it is a tiny thing and he hardly notices. It is certainly nothing

Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne wrote: What do you think JWR? Am I worse than you. Be honest! On average, you have rougher edges than I have. But my extremes are rougher than your extremes. Even now I can't believe I have said the things I've said about the Canadians and the British. --JWR

[ZION] Africa or China?

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
http://www.sciencenews.org/20021221/fob1.asp Here is an interesting story in SCIENCE NEWS that suggests man may have evolved in China as well as Africa as is generally supposed. Has anyone heard more about this? --JWR

Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [ZION] Mayan Nephites?

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
There was a recent article in Meridian Magazine online that discussed the intereaction between some of the groups and the BofM people. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html for part one of the two part series. The homepage for Meridian has the second part of the article. Brandt

RE: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon

2003-08-14 Thread Jim Cobabe
Paul Osborne wrote: --- I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the Urim Thummim. I'm sad. --- Paul, don't be sad about finding