RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
And you'll note Ron, that I have never judged you, only your words. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: The first reference was to Gary Smith, who is not my bishop, nor is he an appointed judge in Israel. Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom

RE: [ZION] A few more representative quotes...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] A few more representative quotes... --Quoting President Hinckley -- There are those who would have us believe in the validity of what they choose to

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Jonathan Scott
It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to Jim Cobabe: Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection,

[ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Jim Cobabe
I believe President Hinkley's remarks on this issue succinctly and precisely outline the present direction of church policy on the marriage controversy. The church is actively pursuing every means to defend traditional marriage, including representation in the courts and support for

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to Jim Cobabe: Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for

[ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
If, as BYU Professor Richard Wilkins states, we need a Marriage Amendment because activist judges have misinterpreted the Constitution (See the URL immediately below), then why not simply limit their jurisdiction as outlined in Article III, Section 2?

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Worth reiterating... I believe President Hinkley's remarks on this issue succinctly and precisely outline the present direction of church policy

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 08:46 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Worth reiterating... I believe President Hinkley's remarks on this issue succinctly and precisely outline the

RE: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
When Richard Wilkins lays out a real constitutional argument I will be first in line to read it. So far, he resorts to bombast and preaching rather than jurisprudence. The local option you propose does have some major practical complications (as we have discussed), ones that could be sorted out

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. I didn't focus on the Law of Moses. I focused on eternal laws of God. You'll note that I not only quoted from the Old

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. Nor does it make him right. Nor does it mean he is following the Constitution. If they were to gage Constitutionality by the standard set by our Founding Fathers, they would have no question on the issue of

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep their proper role and

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that

[ZION] Email Caution

2004-03-23 Thread Sander J. Rabinowitz
All--- I received a suspicious email earlier today purporting to be from my own domain at firstnephi.com. As FYI, you should never EVER receive anything from me or from my family's web site that would ask you to install software, give out passwords, etc. In this instance, it appears

Re: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
Steven Montgomery wrote: If, as BYU Professor Richard Wilkins states, we need a Marriage Amendment because activist judges have misinterpreted the Constitution (See the URL immediately below), then why not simply limit their jurisdiction as outlined in Article III, Section 2?

[ZION] Activist Judges

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any appellate judge worth his gavel is an activist judge because he is often asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's activist judge is another's strict

RE: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution Steven Montgomery wrote: If, as BYU Professor Richard Wilkins states, we need a Marriage Amendment because

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: I do not support extramarital sex of any kind. What about sex within marriage if marriage is redefined to permit a man to marry his German Shepherd or his boy friend? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER:

RE: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: I agree, John. Notice that yesterday the proponents of the amendment expanded language of the proposed amendment to give states the right to adopt same sex union legislation and even Orrin Hatch was dithering. Where can I read about this? --JWR

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... RB Scott wrote: I do not support extramarital sex of any kind. What about sex within marriage if marriage is

RE: [ZION] Activist Judges

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Activist Judges RB Scott wrote: I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any

RE: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Any newspaper in America, I presume. It was front page of the Globe today. I assume the NYT as well, although I have not yet read the Times today. RBS -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: It would *seem* to you, perhaps. It doesn't *seem* so to me. I DO NOT support same sex marriage, but my methods for opposing it do not include (at this point) supporting a constitutional amendment defining **marriage.** Tell us more about your methods for opposing same-sex

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... RB Scott wrote: It would *seem* to you, perhaps. It doesn't *seem* so to me. I DO NOT support same sex marriage, but

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: Tell us more about your methods for opposing same-sex marriage. --JWR I have done this before. I support the proposition that the state should get out of sanctioning marriages altogether and should, therefore ( as I noted in an earlier post today) draft legislation that carefully

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 09:45 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... RB Scott wrote: Tell us more about your methods for opposing same-sex marriage. --JWR I have done this before. I

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 10:08 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... But I thought you did support same sex civil unions. Am I wrong? Support is

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 10:08 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: I will continue to think...and will appreciate receiving relevant, thoughtful comments from any of you. RBS I don't think that you will have any problem with a dearth of commentary and opinion here on ZION. ;-) -- Steven Montgomery The most important

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 09:45 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in

Re: [ZION] Marriage and the Constitution

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 11:38 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: If, as BYU Professor Richard Wilkins states, we need a Marriage Amendment because activist judges have misinterpreted the Constitution (See the URL immediately below), then why not simply limit their jurisdiction as outlined in Article

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... SNIP --RON-- 2) As I read the constitution, the tax codes (for example) must ensure equal treatment under law for all

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... At 10:08 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: I will continue to think...and will appreciate receiving relevant,

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the language? grin What's Wilkins reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an election year stunt gone haywire. RBS The marriage amendment is doomed to failure.

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
Okay, how about 200+ years of laws being interpreted a certain way, only to have judges granting new rights to certain minority groups. There are a lot of black ministers meeting in Atlanta today to fight the gay marriage acts in Georgia. They are demanding that gays not equate their movement

RE: [ZION] Judging

2004-03-23 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 07:22 PM 4/22/2004, you wrote: I went with my 11 year old on a school choir trip today to Calgary for a choral festival performance. rest deleted Hey Tom. Check the time and date on your computer. Your last email on ZION was dated 4/22/2004 at 7:22PM grin. It sure makes a mess out of my email

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
So are you or are you not saying that bestiality is okay? If the state gets out of the marriage business and some strange religion chooses to marry off its virgins to animals, is that then something that should be lawful, simply because the government isn't into marriage issues? I see an

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
So, in effect, you are not opposing anything. You are simply giving up on the fight against moral crimes against society. On the same note then, why do we not have the state get out of managing crimes altogether. Let it all be resolved in the civilian courts. Someone murdered? Why have

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Black ministers should speak their minds. However, as the discussion was about activist judges I will point out that major civil rights decisions were written by activist judges. The nation is the better for their activity. I'll stick by my assertion that activist goes with the assignment to the

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
I think we should go for both of them. If one fails, we have an alternative method. As it is, there probably will not be a perfect solution, but in this case some solution may be better than allowing SSM from proliferating. Gary Smith Steven Montgomery wrote: At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Gary: It's not easy to annoy me, but you're getting close. I wish you'd take greater care in reading my posts, and assessing the reality of the current situation before shooting off half-baked accusations. Think what you may. Have a pleasant night. Ron -Original Message- From:

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Are you related to Red Davis? -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... So are you or are you not saying that bestiality is okay? If the state gets out of the

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
And I don't disagree with all people receiving equal treatment under the law. Nothing says a gay cannot marry someone of the opposite sex, just as all have that same exact opportunity. I do think the government, especially federal, needs to go (as Steven mentioned) to either a flat tax, or

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread Gerald Smith
No, but I know the guy. Don't agree with him on everything. But all I can say is I cannot judge you, Ron. Only your words. And if you feel offended by my judging of your words, then either I am truly misunderstanding them (as are others, I might add), you are failing at putting your true

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

2004-03-23 Thread Jonathan Scott
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. Ok. I agree. Although my guess is that that will make the story a little more bewildering. I didn't focus on the Law of

[ZION] Maybe I and Ron are wrong.

2004-03-23 Thread Jonathan Scott
2 Nephi 23:9 9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 2 Nephi 23:11 11 And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will cause the arrogancy of

[ZION] another approach

2004-03-23 Thread Rusty Taylor
I do not know if this idea has any merit, but wanted to get your opinions. granted, it may not hold water with some of our faith, and probably less water with those who are not of our persuasion or are secular in their orientation. perhaps we are taking the wrong approach in determining what is

RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Gary: I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. I don't appreciate be asked absurd questions that have no bearing whatsoever on the issues we're discussing. And, I get annoyed when you assume I believe one way when the post to which you're responding clearly suggests just the opposite. If

[ZION] Testing legality

2004-03-23 Thread Jim Cobabe
In my view, the restoration has a poor record of success when it comes to testing the laws of the land in court. For more than 150 years it has been a dismal and discouraging effort for the saints of God to importune the courts for redress. In legal matters regarding everything from trivial

Re: [ZION] Testing legality

2004-03-23 Thread Rusty Taylor
Hello, Jim thanks for your response. evidently age and education have not sharpened my writing skills very much. everything you stated was/is true-- historically, the Church has not fared well in the hands of the U.S. legal system. However, I was asking the opposite question: would it be

[ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
Does anyone know how I can find an online copy of Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas? I've Googled, and all I can find are news stories, not the actual dissenting opinion. --JWR // /// ZION LIST

Re: [ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
John W. Redelfs wrote: Does anyone know how I can find an online copy of Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas? I've Googled, and all I can find are news stories, not the actual dissenting opinion. --JWR Nevermind. I found it. Sorry to bother you. --JWR

[ZION] Spit It Out

2004-03-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote: To reiterate: not once have I written that I favor gay marriage, yet you insist that I do. Not once have I written that I condone homosexual activities, yet you assert that I do. I think I see a possible source of misunderstanding here, Ron. Instead of saying, ...not once have a

RE: [ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas

2004-03-23 Thread RB Scott
Here's the court's url http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/01slipopinion.html -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Scalia and Lawrence v. Texas Does anyone know how I can find

RE: [ZION] another approach

2004-03-23 Thread Jim Cobabe
Bob, I do see your point about constitutionality. It is an interesting idea. If I understand correctly, you are imagining what would result if we begin from an axiomatic assumption that church doctrines reflect the true constitutional ideal, and we might use this standard for judging

RE: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey

2004-03-23 Thread Heidi the fair
I sing (soprano, mostly, but can sing alto when needed) and play piano. I'm not the greatest at piano but, with practice, I can play passably enough to be the pianist in sacrament meeting when our regular pianist/organist is out of of town. I used to take clarinet lessons, but only because my

RE: [ZION] another approach

2004-03-23 Thread Rusty Taylor
Jim-- thank you for articulating what I was trying to say. perhaps if I hang out more with the members of Zion, some of that may rub off on me. Bob Taylor Bob, I do see your point about constitutionality. It is an interesting idea. If I understand correctly, you are imagining what would