RE: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-15 Thread Noel B
Dear Zionisti,

For a long time I held to the idea that the Amerindians where, as
described in the Book of Mormon, solely the descendants of the Jaredites
and Lehites. I have had to change my thinking of late. Not because of
the DNA or any other feeble attempt by man to assign broad definitions
to scanty data, but because of what is in the book itself. In 2nd Nephi,
Chapter 1 this is found:

5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a
land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land
which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the
inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me,
and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of
other countries by the hand of the Lord.

In this verse, the Lord not only promises this land as an inheritance to
Nephi but also to others that would be led here. So who are those who
came here from other countries? That could broadly apply to East Asians
coming across a land bridge or many other possible originations. We do
not have their records now but will someday, based on our righteousness,
receive them. Until then, I no longer mentally debate the originations
of the various peoples who greeted the Gentiles.

Noel

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Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
You might think of how Lamanites were described in the BofM.  It was not
based on race or lineage, rather on the state of righteousness.  The
membership of the group was constantly changing from one time to another.

We recognize in the church the principle of adoption.  We give the blessing
and all else to the adopted person.  In the same way many of the descendants
of the the orginal group*S* of people found themselves aligned with either
the Nephites or the Lamanites.

I think that the statement principal ancestors has more to lead to
confusion than is necessary, but it can be read in an entirely different
way, than most people understandablly read it, to allow for it to be
entirely correct.

At any rate it is clear that there were a great deal more of the native
populations involved in the current native populations that just direct
desendants of Lehi.

George

- Original Message -
From: R. Kent Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.


 Kent wonders:
 So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their descendents,
 or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their descendents,
 or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or that
 early Church leaders were making a gross generalization?

 Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

  At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote:
 
  Kent Francis writes:
 
  If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less
  than 500
  miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian,
  Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the
  Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically
  fractionated.
  Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans
were
  Nephite/Lamanites?
 
 
 
 
  Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which
  states that they are the principal ancestors . . .
 
 
 
  -- Ronn!  :)
 
 

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Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread R. Kent Francis
Kent Francis writes:

If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500
miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, 
Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who 
were at various times in their history politically fractionated.
Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were
Nephite/Lamanites?

The various tribes of the Americas (from both genetic and language 
groupings) are divided into groups:

1. The Eskimo-Aleut groups (10 languages  85,000 speakers)

2. The Na-Dene - (not related to groups 1 or 3-8)
  North-Western Na-Dene - Haida, Tlingit,  Athabaskan (30 languages)
  Southern Na-Dene - Apache, Cree,  Navaho (130,000 speakers) - arrived
in SW from the north about 1200 AD
583 Amerind languages and groups:

3. Northern Amerind
 a1. Almosan - includes Kutenai, Algonquian, Cree, Ojibwa, and 3 other
languages - Canada  NewEngland
 a2. Keresiouan - includes Keres, Liouan, Iroquoian, Caddoan - Midwest to
Atlantic coast - Cherokee
 b. Penutian - Oregon and Calif, SouthEast , Gulf group -  Pima, Papago,
Nahua,
  SouthernMexico group (Huava, Mixe-Zoque, Totonacan),
  and the Maya in Yucatan and Guatamala same group in NewMexico = Zuni
 c. Hokan - calif  parts of Az
4. Central Amerind
 a. Chibchan sw Mexico, central america south of Yucatan, Venezual 
North  Brazil includes Yanomame  Guaymi.
 b. Paezan (north Florida, Colombia coast, Ecuador, Chilean Andes/coast
5. 20 Andean languages (Quechua and Aymara - Inca empire) Mapuche =
Araucanians
6. Equatorial - Tucanoan 9 groups in western Brazil

7. Eqauatorial Caribbean islands, Uraguay, Venezuala, Ckolombia, Ecuador,
Peru, Central  Eastern Brazil
8. Ge-Pano-Carib  - Southern Brazil

By looking at the different distributions of blood allele's in the native
populations sampled, there is a high correlation with both geographical and
lingusitic factors that allow separations into distinct (non-related) groups.
Perhaps when someone dives into the data, we could identify a group that
might in fact qualify for the Nephites that we are looking for... if only 
one of the three Nephites would drop by for a blood test {8^)...

well let me digress to a former posting I made:

First of all I am NOT claiming that Bolivia is the site for Zarahemla {8^).

I am like everyone else urging caution in jumping to conclusions - however, 
I am looking for parallels and hints as a way of trying to understand who 
the Book of Mormon Peoples might have been and where they might have lived.

I don't believe (as many of my ancestors did) that all indians are Lamanites.

I believe that the Book of Mormon may have been a localized account rather
than the history of all of North, Central, and South America.  The rise of
the Olmec and Mayan civilizations do correlate to Book of Mormon Histories
of the Jaredites and Nephites/Lamanites; hence the attempt by many to build 
a geographical correlation in Guatamala.  What pointed me in the direction 
of Bolivia is a chance statement from the Genome project which I have been
studying.

First of all, a related article in the popular press which some have reacted
to by stating that there are no Lamanites here.
(My research is a few years old so there may have been some advances in this
area)
Native Americans may be able to trace heritage to rare gene

Copyright (c) 1996 Nando.net
Copyright (c) 1996 San Francisco Examiner
SAN FRANCISCO (Jan 10, 1996 11:04 a.m. EST) -- All Native Americans
may be able to trace their heritage back to a rare genetic mutation
in one man, passed on about 30,000 years ago to his son and future
descendants, according to new Stanford University research.
A search of more than 500 DNA samples from populations around the
world revealed a mutation on the Y chromosome found only in Indian
populations in North and South America and in Eskimo groups.
This one-time mutation is a genetic footprint of our forebears'
prehistoric wanderings across the Americas -- and is still imprinted
in the genetic code of today's native Americans.
We think that somewhere back in human history, there was this
unique mutation event, lead researcher Peter Underhill, a research
associate in genetics at Stanford University, said Monday. It
probably happened only once, on one Y chromosome, and a faithful
copy (of the mutation) was passed on from this father to his son,
and all future offspring.
The mutation is found in samples of blood and hair of people
representing all three far-flung language groups of native
Americans, thought to have split up and gone their separate ways
long ago: Amerind, represented by South American Indians; Na-Dene,
represented by groups such as the Navajos; and Eskimo-Aleut.
Researchers say this suggests that the genetic mutation may have
occurred before the split and subsequent language differentiation --
perhaps among 

[ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
Could these have been the Jaredites, Paul?  Apparently they date back much 
further than the Olmec.  What are the dates for the Tower of Babel 
anyway?  --JWR

--- Newsweek Story ---

New World Pyramids; By Sharon Begley With Joseph Contreras in Lima and 
Rachel Hays in Caral

Newsweek   05-07-2001

New World Pyramids: Scientists have unearthed the oldest known city in the 
Americas, showing that urban civilization began here 1,500 years earlier 
than they thought

By Sharon Begley With Joseph Contreras in Lima and Rachel Hays in Caral
Edition: U.S. Edition
Section: Science and Technology
Subsection: ARCHEOLOGY
They trekked for half a mile, stuffing some 70 pounds of stones collected 
from the riverbed and surrounding hillsides into open-weave bags made of 
reeds. Returning to the terrace 80 feet above the river valley, the workers 
set the rocks, bags and all, inside cut-stone retaining walls that formed 
the rectangular base of a pyramid that would eventually rise 60 feet. Then 
they went back for more; the pyramid's base, after all, was bigger than 
four modern-day football fields. None of this would be particularly 
remarkable, except for where it was happening--and when. The site, called 
Caral, lies not in Egypt, but 120 miles north of Lima, Peru, and 12 miles 
inland from the Pacific Ocean in the foothills of the Andes Mountains. Last 
week archeologists announced that it dates from 2627 B.C., the same era 
when Egyptian slaves were building the Great Pyramids and a full 1,500 
years before scientists thought urban civilization began in the New World. 
This is the oldest human settlement of any social complexity ever found in 
the Americas, says archeologist Ruth Shady Solis of San Marcos National 
University in Lima, who led the excavation. Caral may therefore be the 
birthplace of New World civilization, says archeologist Winifred Creamer 
of Northern Illinois University, a member of the team.

Today, Caral is not much to look at. Desert hills covered in sunbaked sand 
ring a cluster of earthen mounds, which appear no more notable than a bunch 
of overgrown prairie-dog hills. But appearances deceive. Beneath the 
windblown sands of time each mound is actually a complex, pyramid-shaped 
structure built more than 4,000 years ago. Although archeologists knew in 
1905 that something once stood at Caral, the site was overlooked in favor 
of others containing--yes, researchers can be suckers for all that 
glitters, too--gold.

But when Shady turned to Caral in 1994, she found that it had something 
even better, as she and her collaborators report in the journal Science. 
Six pyramids dot the center of the city, along with two sunken plazas; 
eight residential neighborhoods and numerous smaller platform mounds 
sprawl beyond. Along the terraced sides of the largest pyramid, one eighth 
the height of the Great Pyramid of Khufu, staircases lead to a flat apex, 
site of a suite of rooms and fire pit probably used for religious rituals. 
The five other pyramids may have been the equivalent of a modern city's 
many houses of worship--or clubs. The people of Caral were beginning to 
form social classes, and each stratum of society might have belonged to a 
different pyramid, says Rocio Aramburu, who was directing excavations last 
week. Inside the foundation of one, the archeologists found the remains of 
an 18-month-old boy, reflecting the practice of many pre-Incan peoples of 
offering a little boy to the gods.

The planning and labor mobilization required to build the pyramids hint 
that some centralized authority was calling the shots. Each of the six 
stands amid formally arranged groups of houses--history's first planned 
communities. Smaller pyramids, each with a flight of stairs leading to 
rooms with a view, probably housed Caral's elite. A group of adobe homes 
was probably a middle-class enclave for craftsmen, people who spun cotton, 
wove textiles, made tools, managed irrigation or worked for the priests and 
rulers, Creamer says. On Caral's periphery, structures made of wooden 
poles, cane and mud were the homes of servants or peasants who farmed 
cotton, beans, guava and squash, or hauled rocks for the latest temple. 
The buildings imply an advanced knowledge of architecture, engineering, 
geometry--all the mathematical sciences, says Aramburu.

One of Caral's more striking structures is the Temple of the Amphitheater, 
one of two sunken circular plazas where residents probably gathered to 
watch religious ceremonies. The temple also boasts an elevated atrium that 
archeologists suspect was a semiprivate space, reserved for ceremonies of 
maybe 20 people. The bulk of the structures are ceremonial, says 
Aramburu. If they built something, they did so for religious purposes. We 
haven't found warehouses for storing food, for example. But they have 
found signs of irrigation, making Caral one of the first civilizations in 
the Americas to break free 

Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread George Cobabe
While the statement quoted is the problem it is never the less the fact that
for many, many years the idea of other peoples being there first has been a
part of the belief of many people.

A careful reading of 1st Nephi would lead you to believe that they were
interacting with native people from the very first day of their landing in
the New World.

George
- Original Message -
From: Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.


 At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote:
 Kent Francis writes:
 
 If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than
500
 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines,
 Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who
 were at various times in their history politically fractionated.
 Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were
 Nephite/Lamanites?



 Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states
 that they are the principal ancestors . . .



 -- Ronn!  :)



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Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote:
Kent Francis writes:

If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500
miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, 
Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who 
were at various times in their history politically fractionated.
Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were
Nephite/Lamanites?


Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states 
that they are the principal ancestors . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.

2003-08-14 Thread Chet Cox
Could mean that this is where all our principals came from.  Our
principal was Seminole.

*jeep!
  --Chet

Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
 
  Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which 
  states that they are the principal ancestors . . .

So Kent wondered:

 So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their 
 descendents,
 or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their 
 descendents,
 or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or 
 that
 early Church leaders were making a gross generalization?

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