RE: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-21 Thread Jim Cobabe

John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
Don't we already know that John the Baptist ate locusts and honey?  
Locusts are definitely animal protein, not plants.
---

Apparently some believe locusts to be a mistranslation perpetuated 
from very early manuscripts.

In certain early historical writings the phrase is found as honey, and 
cakes made with oil and honey.  The change is attributed to misreading 
the Greek enkis, meaning cake oil, to akris which means locusts.

But of course this is all Greek to me.

Supposedly this is also consistent with what scholars of the Dead Sea 
Scrolls have learned quite recently about the strict rules of the 
Essenes community, of which some believe John the Baptist was an 
associate.  Some of John's other peculiar habits seem to have 
interesting parallels with the Essenes culture.

FWIW.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
This is a common tradition (the term carob was eating away at the back of my
head, trying to get something out, and when Mij mentioned St. John's Bread, I
finally remembered that there is a tradition that what John the Baptist ate in the
desert was locust beans, not locusts. Locust bean is another word for carob.)
Unfortunately this is an issue only in modern European languages, not in the
original Greek, which clearly indicates that it was a great big bowl of greasy
grimylocust guts (and I forgot my spoon). The reason for the tradition,
besides the yuck factor is that many people assumed insects aren't kosher. And
most of them aren't, but one verse in Leviticus (iirc, 11:20-21) explicitly gives
an exception for four varieties of locusts. Which is kinda practical, when you
think about it. I mean, they have the chutzpah to eat all your grain, so why
should you be forbidden to doing unto them what they've tried to do unto you, so
to chirp?

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 At 05:30 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij clarifies in his inimitable manner:
 Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
 comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
 Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
 greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield
 per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is
 commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods
 are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny
 beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener
 in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob
 powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%.
 While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content.
 Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and
 a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the
 allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found
 in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or
 strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas
 and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high
 in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a
 delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco
 flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals.
 
 Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
 the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
 heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet
 Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye
 the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his
 raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his
 meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all
 Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him
 in Jordan, confessing their sins.

 Are you saying that John ate carobs instead of fat little insects?

 Till the confused

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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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RE: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Jim Cobabe

Apparently an early Jewish/Christian sect who called themselves 
Ebionites claimed to have originated from the pre-Christian Nazarite 
discipline, and among other interesting things, argued that Jesus and 
John the Baptist were vegetarians.  Some believe the Locust/Carob 
controversy might have started with them. I understand that some 
communities of Jewish Essenes, such as those at Qumran, are also reputed 
to have practiced strict vegetarianism.  None of these stories are clear 
and unambiguous enough to be very conclusive, nor do I think it matters 
what John the Baptist ate, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of 
triva.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-20 Thread Marc A. Schindler
That's pretty well my understanding, too, although I didn't know it might have
originated with the Elbionites -- I thought it was during the Middle Ages when
various Bibles mention it. But again, in the Greek New Testament the word for
locust is akpides, from which we also get the modern word cricket,
incidentally

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Apparently an early Jewish/Christian sect who called themselves
 Ebionites claimed to have originated from the pre-Christian Nazarite
 discipline, and among other interesting things, argued that Jesus and
 John the Baptist were vegetarians.  Some believe the Locust/Carob
 controversy might have started with them. I understand that some
 communities of Jewish Essenes, such as those at Qumran, are also reputed
 to have practiced strict vegetarianism.  None of these stories are clear
 and unambiguous enough to be very conclusive, nor do I think it matters
 what John the Baptist ate, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of
 triva.

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

 //
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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 /


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-18 Thread Jim Cobabe
Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It 
comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the 
Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to 
50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a 
greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield 
per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is 
commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods 
are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny 
beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener 
in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob 
powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. 
While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. 
Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and 
a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the 
allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found 
in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or 
strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas 
and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high 
in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a 
delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco 
flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. 

Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in 
the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of 
heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet 
Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye 
the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his 
raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his 
meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all 
Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him 
in Jordan, confessing their sins. 

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Re: [ZION] Carob beans

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
See, folks? You have a question, and there's always someone on the list who

a) knows the answer;
b) may not know, but knows how to find out; and even on occasion,
c) hasn't a clue but can concoct an answer with such an air of authority that no
one cares if it's right or not ;-)  [Thanks, Jim]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
 comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
 Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
 greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield
 per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is
 commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods
 are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny
 beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener
 in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob
 powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%.
 While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content.
 Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and
 a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the
 allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found
 in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or
 strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas
 and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high
 in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a
 delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco
 flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals.

 Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
 the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
 heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet
 Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye
 the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his
 raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his
 meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all
 Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him
 in Jordan, confessing their sins.

 //
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
 /


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

//
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

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