Re: [ZION] Dove-breeding as a gospel hobby (was: Iraq and war)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Stephen- The US maintains that the actions against Iraq do not constitute a war of aggression, but are a defense of family and freedoms. -Mark- Saying it doesn't make it so. That's beside the point, which is that an argument can be made to justify the US actions. The US government is not proclaiming a war of vengeance or a jihad or anything of the sort. You may think that's what they're doing, and you may be right, but it's hardly obvious on the face of the matter. Let me ask you the same question I've been asking others, than. If the criteria that the U.S. are using were to be applied to other countries in the area, a much better case could be made for invading Pakistan. Yet instead the US pours billions into military aid for Pakistan. Why the difference? When someone sees this difference, is it any wonder that one asks whether there's more here than meets the eye? Yes, I'm saying it is not so. That is, there is certainly corruption in the US government, but that is not the only force present. Americans have great failings, both domestically and in foreign affairs (though no more so than Canadians, or any other nation), but they also have an abiding sense of fairness. Often this leads to interference in matters better left untouched, which constitute what Washington (you know, that evil invader of Canada, much vilified by all Church leaders since Joseph Smith) termed entangling alliances and are at least partially responsible for the current mess the US finds itself in. Of course, there is plenty of self-serving behavior in the US government and its policies, but any impartial review of 20th-century history should demonstrate that the US does not seek only for its own good, regardless of the needs of the rest of the world. There is nothing here that I have said regarding corrupt governments (actually I believe I said militaristic; corrupt is a vaguer term) that doesn't also apply to all Western governments. Specifically in America, none of us has kept to the contract of Zion recorded in the Book of Ether. You do have a sense of fairness. So does everyone in every country I've ever been to. It's what constitutes fair that begs the question. Different people put emphasis on different values and situations. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Dove-breeding as a gospel hobby (was: Iraq and war)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Let me ask you the same question I've been asking others, than. If the criteria that the U.S. are using were to be applied to other countries in the area, a much better case could be made for invading Pakistan. Yet instead the US pours billions into military aid for Pakistan. Why the difference? I don't know. That doesn't seem to stop you from having strong opinions on the issue. Or am I misreading you? When someone sees this difference, is it any wonder that one asks whether there's more here than meets the eye? No. You're not the least bit curious? There is nothing here that I have said regarding corrupt governments No, I believe either Mark or I introduced that term. I also do not believe I claimed that you had done so. You do have a sense of fairness. So does everyone in every country I've ever been to. It's what constitutes fair that begs the question. Different people put emphasis on different values and situations. True enough, but that's beside the point, which was that Elder Nelson was not making a pointed condemnation of the US actions against Iraq, despite yours and John's opinion to the contrary. That is not my opinion, as I've already shown. I don't mind taking heat for what I've said or written, but I get my knickers in a knot when I'm taken to task for what someone *thinks* I've written. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Dove-breeding as a gospel hobby (was: Iraq and war)
-Marc- Let me ask you the same question I've been asking others, than. If the criteria that the U.S. are using were to be applied to other countries in the area, a much better case could be made for invading Pakistan. Yet instead the US pours billions into military aid for Pakistan. Why the difference? -Stephen- I don't know. -Marc- That doesn't seem to stop you from having strong opinions on the issue. Or am I misreading you? Indeed you are. I don't believe I've stated any opinions on this subject at all. I am interested to hear thoughts on all sides; however, I am most concerned about the integrity of the arguments. -Marc- When someone sees this difference, is it any wonder that one asks whether there's more here than meets the eye? -Stephen- No. -Marc- You're not the least bit curious? Sure. -Stephen- the point ... was that Elder Nelson was not making a pointed condemnation of the US actions against Iraq, despite yours and John's opinion to the contrary. -Marc- That is not my opinion, as I've already shown. As you've now stated, you mean. -Marc- I don't mind taking heat for what I've said or written, but I get my knickers in a knot when I'm taken to task for what someone *thinks* I've written. Having one's meaning mistaken is always a danger, and is usually irritating, even frustrating. I understand. Nevertheless, you clearly *were* criticizing the US policy vis-a-vis war with Iraq; and you *did* say that you have a difficult time seeing how people can still, with all due respect, 'not get it' after hearing [Elder Nelson's] talk. I am curious to know what the antecedent to it is in the phrase not get it, since you now say it isn't the evils of pursuing a war with Iraq. Also, you did agree with John, who clearly condemned US actions toward Iraq. So if you now claim that you never meant that, I'll believe you, because I don't think you're a liar (and I rather like you). But I really don't think you have much cause for knotting your knickers over my taking what seems to me to be the most obvious interpretation of your very own words. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Dove-breeding as a gospel hobby (was: Iraq and war)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Let me ask you the same question I've been asking others, than. If the criteria that the U.S. are using were to be applied to other countries in the area, a much better case could be made for invading Pakistan. Yet instead the US pours billions into military aid for Pakistan. Why the difference? -Stephen- I don't know. -Marc- That doesn't seem to stop you from having strong opinions on the issue. Or am I misreading you? Indeed you are. I don't believe I've stated any opinions on this subject at all. I am interested to hear thoughts on all sides; however, I am most concerned about the integrity of the arguments. -Marc- When someone sees this difference, is it any wonder that one asks whether there's more here than meets the eye? -Stephen- No. -Marc- You're not the least bit curious? Sure. -Stephen- the point ... was that Elder Nelson was not making a pointed condemnation of the US actions against Iraq, despite yours and John's opinion to the contrary. -Marc- That is not my opinion, as I've already shown. As you've now stated, you mean. No. As originally stated. I have never, since the thread turned to discussion of Elder Nelson's talk, specifically try to link his remarks to Iraq solely. -Marc- I don't mind taking heat for what I've said or written, but I get my knickers in a knot when I'm taken to task for what someone *thinks* I've written. Having one's meaning mistaken is always a danger, and is usually irritating, even frustrating. I understand. Nevertheless, you clearly *were* criticizing the US policy vis-a-vis war with Iraq; and you *did* say that you have a difficult time seeing how people can still, with all due respect, 'not get it' after hearing [Elder Nelson's] talk. I am curious to know what the antecedent to it is in the phrase not get it, Well, either you know what the antecedent is or you don't. Which is it? You seem to want to criticize me regardless of which interpretation you read into my comments. I've already said that personally I'm against pre-emptive military action against Iraq. I have also said I do not believe Elder Nelson's comments were specifically directed at Iraq. It is church policy regarding aggressive wars. I think he's quite clear on that, but his timing could be purposeful, indirectly directed at Iraq, or it could be coincidental. I don't think there's enough information to tell, and in any case I think it would be out of character for the Church to get that specific. They prefer to teach us correct principles and let us govern ourselves. since you now say it isn't the evils of pursuing a war with Iraq. Also, you did agree with John, who clearly condemned US actions toward Iraq. I've answered this already. A one-to-one correspondence is not necessarily for an agreement to take place in human conversation. Your insistence on reading in something I did not say is, I find, if not perverse, at least a bit obsessive. I can understand your concern over the integrity of the arguments but your statements regarding that integrity has to be backed up with more than opinion. So if you now claim that you never meant that, I'll believe you, because I don't think you're a liar (and I rather like you). But I really don't think you have much cause for knotting your knickers over my taking what seems to me to be the most obvious interpretation of your very own words. I think there's a third option, which I honestly believe is more likely. Given what you know of my beliefs, you assumed that what I was agreeing with in John's post was his application of Elder Nelson's talk to Iraq specifically. That was, if I can stand back from myself for a moment, not an unreasonable assumption. But as it turns out, I believe there's an important distinction to be made, which I think I've explained above (and in other responses). Hope that helps. If I exhibit impatience at times know that I at least appreciate you keeping me on my toes. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL
