Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. === Grampa Bill responds: I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he want to work as a machinist for the county. I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. As for the importance of being a High Priest, I submit the following from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson_ Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.604 The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was president of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that, according to Wilford Woodruff's journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. It is my understang that others of the founding fathers were ordained Elders as is common practice today when the dead receive their temple work. I'm not sure of the significance of these ordinations but thought I'd throw them out there. Don't waste the atonement. Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002 Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Grampa Bill responds: I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he want to work as a machinist for the county. I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. Gee wiz Grampa, that must have been a long long long time ago before the unwritten rule was written. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. What's a razor? Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
- Stephen - Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that teacher was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. === Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Mark- Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to teachers and priests. But you bring up an interesting point: Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. I did not realize this, having never heard these statements; but now that you mention it, it seems pretty obvious that the Nephites would not have had the Levitical Priesthood. Duh. The Moroni reference is interesting. The term priest itself implies a Priesthood office, and Moroni 4-5 show that priests as well as elders could consecrate the sacrament, which as far as I know is purely a Priesthood function. Furthermore, Moroni 3 talks about the *ordination* of priests and teachers, the identical wording (or the same ideas, if the prayer is not meant to be verbatim) used in each, suggesting that both priest and teacher were Priesthood offices. Since the Nephite post-Resurrection office of priest had the authority to administer the sacrament, it's tempting to say that those two offices were identical to the Aaronic Priesthood offices of priest and teacher that we have today. However, your mention above of the teachings of our leaders, which I assume to be correct (do you have an actual citation(s)?), demonstrates that the Nephites were not in possession of the Aaronic Priesthood; so if teacher and priest were in fact Priesthood offices, as seems likely, they must have been offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Other possibilities? Maybe the Nephites had some other type of lesser Priesthood, similar to our Aaronic Priesthood, and these were offices in that other Priesthood. Seems farfetched, but I have heard others talk about what they term the Patriarchal Priesthood as a separate thing from the Melchizedek Priesthood, or more correctly a subset of it. I have done no study of this issue, and the argumentation I've heard on it is most unconvincing; but if such a thing actually existed, then it's possible there was yet another Nephite Priesthood subset, similar to the Levitical/Aaronic and the Patriarchal. Another idea, one that to me seems more likely: If Joseph's use of the term ordain in translating Moroni 3 is taken more broadly, maybe as synonymous with set apart, another possibilitiy presents itself. Perhaps priest and teacher did not refer to administrative/functional capacities that today we call offices. Maybe they were more akin to what we today would term callings, like ward missionary and gospel doctrine teacher. The elders of the Nephite church in later times referred to the disciples, meaning specifically the leaders selected by Christ, or the virtual apostles of the Nephites. Maybe all Nephite Priesthood leaders were called elder. In that case, Moroni's statement that the elders or priests administered the sacrament would be like saying that the Church leaders or sacrament-administrators (i.e. those specifically authorized to administer the sacrament) took care of that ordinance. All speculation, of course; but knowing that the Aaronic Priesthood did not exist among the Nephites, and without further historical information, it may be the best we can do. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. This makes sense. Since the Aaronic Priesthood is a part of the higher Priesthood, it is reasonable that any holder of the higher Priesthood could officiate in a duty of the lesser Priesthood. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
Mark Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. Correct. The Nephites did not officiate in the Aaronic priesthood until after the Savior appeared to them. All priesthood administration in the BoM before Christ was in the high priesthood which is after the order of the Son of God. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
Yes, I know that Nibley says it is a free lunch, but he also says we still must work. What I was meaning, is that there are laws of work governing worldly wealth. The person who works hard and smart tends to live a more comfortable life than someone who is sloth or not so wise in their dealings with money. For example, all the GAs have paid their tithes, ensuring that the Lord would open the windows of heaven up to them. Second, they have all worked hard to live within their means, staying out of debt, ensuring their moneys were being used in the best ways possible, rather than just to pay down interest debt. Third, they have been industrious enough to make for a comfortable living. Fourth, they have put the kingdom of God first, and their other worldly works second, ensuring God's assistance financially and in other matters. So, they HAVE earned these blessings given of God. Do you think they would have these same blessings if they weren't paying their tithes? They wouldn't qualify to be GAs or high priests w/o paying tithes, so there is a bit of earning one has to do. Perhaps the term qualify would better suit you? Either way, it isn't totally a free gift, as there are some qualifications to receive all from God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ELF: Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:09:09 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. What's a razor? Till, a razor is that thing wives use on their legs to make sure that they can scratch your legs up with theirs simply by rubbing them against you a few days later. I know! My wife has one! Scott (who wouldn't want to touch one of those horrid razor things!) -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
John W. Redelfs wrote: At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do so without ordaining him a high priest. This is true. As in my original anecdote, I even taught HPs while a 70, and met with them for several years before being ordained a HP. Unless there is compelling reason otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to be a high priest only if his calling requires it. At least that is my understanding. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Having trouble sleeping, are we? ducking with eyes open in two directions... -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. Till detects that it is still unresolved But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. You're on the right track, though but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means Here's the key. I'm working on it. :-) Absolutely the best statement yet. With this, all things can be accomplished. Till, who hopes he hasn't offended / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
From what I've noticed here in my ward-- Prospective Elders: 98% Inactive* Elders: Seems like 25-30% Inactive, at least here High Priests: 5-10% Inactive, but it seems as if the inactivity occurs mainly for health reasons, such as an extended hospitalization As Paul O. noted, Prospective Elders are counted in the numbers for the Elders Quorum, regardless of the actual priesthood office the member has (if any). On that basis, the 50% inactivity rate for the entire Quorum sounds just about right. /Sandy/ (* The 2% in this category are invariably recent converts, and most of these don't remain Prospective Elders for very long, as they receive the Melchezidek Priesthood within months to perhaps over a year. The remaining 98% either dropped off the radar screen shortly after being baptised, or else fell away while they were still attending Aaronic Priesthood quorums.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests
Stephen, You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? I agree that the term high priest can have more than one meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, high priests in the modern sense as you so put it. I say that the term is an ancient one, that we were foreordained as high priests, according to Alma. I use Occam's Razor on this, as your definition requires a twisting of terms (or redefinition, anyway). If Alma says faithful men were foreordained as high priests, why can't you accept it as it is written? I mean, there are different MP titles given in the BoM, even though I grant they aren't exactly the same as we have today (obviously teacher was an office in the MP for the Nephites). And are you trying to tell me that Abraham's desire to be a high priest just means he wanted to hold the MP? Why didn't he just say he desired to be a priesthood holder, then? Why do we have to twist his terms, when they are clear enough without redefining them? Finally, we are told that there will be an ordination to become a god, that we will be set apart as kings and priests. Since you already hold the MP as an elder, why must one be reordained a priest? BTW, I'm not teaching false doctrine. It may not be official doctrine of the Church, but it isn't rejected out of hand, either (except, of course, by you). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stephen: 1. The lead, or head, or high, priest of a group of ecumenical authorities. Thus, Alma was high priest over the land, meaning he was the head of the priests; similarly, Aaron, though not in possession of the higher Priesthood, was still a high priest, since he was the leader. 2. Any holder of the high Priesthood may properly be referred to as a high priest, in the sense that he is a priest (i.e. a holder of the Priesthood) after the order of Melchizedek. Thus it is that Alma calls those who hold the higher Priesthood high priests in Alma 13:9. 3. Specifically, in modern days a high priest is an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, one that has certain duties assigned to it, normally relating to administrative duties. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Gary- You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly, Alma's meaning is not easily mistaken. I agree that the term high priest can have more than one meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, high priests in the modern sense as you so put it. Name one. For my part, I name Elder Hilbig of the Seventy, who used the same gloss (if you care to call it such) as I have when he said last year in general conference: The prophet Alma explained that men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood on earth have been 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling' (Alma 13:3). (I might also quote any number of other general authorities, e.g. Elder Maxwell, who in April 1986 general conference also followed this gloss, saying: In fact, we learn that all faithful men of the priesthood were 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world' (Alma 13:3)...; or the reference in Elder Nelson's October 1987 conference talk: Scriptures also relate that the Lord God foreordained priests prepared from the foundation of the world according to his foreknowledge. Thus, our calling to the holy priesthood was foreseen before we were born (see Alma 13:1-5). But, I won't bother.) I say that the term is an ancient one, No one disputes that the term high priest is ancient. that we were foreordained as high priests, according to Alma. No one disputes this, either. The dispute is Alma's meaning: I (and apparently the general authorities) say this means a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, while you say it only refers to those who hold the office of high priest. I use Occam's Razor on this, as your definition requires a twisting of terms (or redefinition, anyway). Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. If Alma says faithful men were foreordained as high priests, why can't you accept it as it is written? I do accept it **as it is written**, Gary. In my view, it is you who does not accept it as written, insisting instead on applying your anachronistic definition. Remember, the office of high priest did not exist at the time Joseph Smith translated Alma's words. I mean, there are different MP titles given in the BoM, even though I grant they aren't exactly the same as we have today (obviously teacher was an office in the MP for the Nephites). Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that teacher was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. If teacher was a Priesthood office, I expect it pertained to the Aaronic Priesthood; however, my supposition is that it was not a Priesthood office at all, but more like what we today would call a calling. In other words, a teacher was simply one who was authorized to teach. And are you trying to tell me that Abraham's desire to be a high priest just means he wanted to hold the MP? Yes. This is *exactly* what I'm saying. Why didn't he just say he desired to be a priesthood holder, then? He did. He said that he wanted to be a holder of the Priesthood of the patriarchs, the high Priesthood. That is, he wanted to be a high priest. That's not a Priesthood office, it's a holder of the Priesthood. Why do we have to twist his terms, when they are clear enough without redefining them? Because you are using an anachronistic application of the terms. Finally, we are told that there will be an ordination to become a god, that we will be set apart as kings and priests. Since you already hold the MP as an elder, why must one be reordained a priest? Let me turn the question back on you. Since you already hold the office of high priest, why must you be reordained a priest? Or are you suggesting that, as a high priest, you have no further need to be ordained a king and priest in the eternities, because you've already received all you need? BTW, I'm not teaching false doctrine. Nor did I say you were. I said that if the doctrine you preach were taught (note the subjunctive) as gospel, it would be false doctrine. I assume you are not teaching this speculation as gospel, so therefore it's not false doctrine. It's just speculation --
RE: [ZION] High Priests
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that, upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've been thinking, and that it in fact applies to all Melchizedek Priesthood holders, not simply those who hold the administrative Priesthood office of high priest. But the central question remains: Where do you derive your doctrine that all men must eventually hold the Melchizedek Priesthood office of high priest in order to receive exaltation? That's the genesis of this thread, and I have yet to see any evidence that this doctrine exists in holy writ, or that it is taught by, approved by, or even believed by the general authorities. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't get the big bucks. My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. To make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I could give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who he calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a person's talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to be bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed many talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has not developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become successful in business also. Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only gives a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The Lord looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will sacrifice the television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. This type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in business. Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else): Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. ___ I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
-Paul- The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money too. It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him too. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Ok. Have a nice day. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with regard to income within the stake boundaries. How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom He will call, income notwithstanding. That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're wrong. Where do you live? Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money, resources, and prestige. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. Vic --- Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. --- http://www.DCemail.com --- A Washington Online Community Member --- http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne: I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. ... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) ___ Glad to note you have a sense of humor, since I have never seen any facts in the Church News that tell how much stake presidents get paid in their work. I will agree that many do well. The same skills of hard work, administrative experience, and leadership they have gained in Church callings serve to benefit them in their work, as well. But not all of them are well-paid money guys. I know several who served while living under the poverty level. And we know what those unwritten rules are, because they are actually written down and posted at John's website. :-) Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Mark Gregson wrote: To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. Specifically, most of his later Church career, professionally speaking, was spent in either journalism- or public affairs-related positions. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. So does he report to Sister Dew now? (who's president and CEO of Deseret Book Co.) [just teasing. I know that Pres. Monson is no longer the GM of Deseret News] President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the apostleship. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Dear Paul: I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he still speaks directly to the Lord. I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an excellent salary. I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you would find a majority of them are humble Laborers. I think the fact that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's vineyards? As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of debt and to save money. The men UP there have obviously done just that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple. val [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] High Priests have money
I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. President Monson has almost always worked in the Church, so basically lives on a stipend given him, plus revenues from the few books he's written, and salary for being on a few boards of companies (mostly Church related). Elder Packer was a college professor, not a wealth creating job. Of the earliest apostles, none were rich. Some were not educated (like Heber C Kimball). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
Paul, What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. But in all reality, $50K isn't really that much, depending of course on where you live in the US. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for food? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done anything prestigious. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: $$$ and prestige Need I say more? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne: ... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. ___ Nice thought. Not true. And I think you may have a real hangup with the word pre$tige. But, that's just my own personal opinion, and I will have another nice day again tomorrow, thank you. Poor as I am in the things of this world. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do so without ordaining him a high priest. Unless there is compelling reason otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to be a high priest only if his calling requires it. At least that is my understanding. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gary Smith wrote: You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. This was precisely what I as thinking of. He really struggled as an insurance broker when he was a young man. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. I had a stake president in southern California who was a manager of a college bookstore. I don't think he made much more than minimum wage. The neighborhood where he lived, the clothes he wore, and the car he drove would certainly bear out that out. Yet he was an excellent stake president. While it is true that most stake presidents are wealthy by my standards, that just means they are successful in their work. Even a truck driver or mechanic can be wealthy if he is good enough. And it stands to reason that the Lord would prefer competent men as his bishops and stake presidents. That is probably why I will never have to make that sacrifice. I have no special, demonstrated competence as an administrator. Teaching jobs are at least as important as bean counting, pencil pushing, and paper shuffling anyway. I would much rather teach Sunday School, a priesthood quorum, or seminary than serve in any administrative calling. The pay is just as good, and the work is a lot more fun. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. Point taken. Thanks. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. --- Jesus was a carpenter. Peter was a fisherman. Joseph Smith was a farmer. Brigham Young was a glazier, I believe. Throughout the history of the Church, ancient and modern, the prophets have been not only pencil pushers, but also tradesmen. If there is a temporary abundance of paper shufflers in position of leadership, it is because at this time in history that is what the Lord needs. Perhaps it will be different tomorrow. Isn't it wonderful that this is a living Church. It grows and shifts to meet the current situation. I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words - mank and ind. What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can understand how you would prefer an educated man. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for food? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done ng prestigious. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. I think it depends on where you are. There is little prestige in being a bishop or stake president here in this part of Alaska. But in the SLC-Provo area those callings are definitely prestige callings. You can tell by listening to the wives. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
At 03:08 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Larry Jackson wrote: And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? We have loads of inactive elders in our ward, but we have not one single inactive high priest. Is that normal? And if so, why might that be? I speculate that by the time a man is called to be a high priest he has proven that his interest in the gospel is not a temporary thing. Elders, because they are generally much younger, have not lived long enough to demonstrate by their record that they will remain active no matter what. Of course, there are high priests that have fallen too, just not nearly as many per thousand. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
-John- I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? I can't confirm or deny Church-wide, of course, but around here that's not the case. 50% is approximately right for the elders, probably a bit high, but 5% is definitely too low for the high priests. I speculate that by the time a man is called to be a high priest he has proven that his interest in the gospel is not a temporary thing. Elders, because they are generally much younger, have not lived long enough to demonstrate by their record that they will remain active no matter what. Maybe in some places, but I doubt that's the case here. Of the six elder's quorum presidents I have had in Redmond, four have been over 40 years old. Of the other two, one was a recent convert of about 26 years of age, and the other was in his early 30s and was clearly being fast-tracked and groomed for administrative service (he's currently in the bishopric). Our elder's quorum has also, until very recently, included a very active brother in his 50s and several very active men in their 40s. They had long since demonstrated by their record their activity. But we live in a very active area with lots of leadership-quality men, and I suspect the local leaders prefer not to make men high priests just because they have turned 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever. Just my suspicions. I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. This is to be expected, since high priests are the leaders, and the leaders are usually selected from among the most active and faithful of the Saints (men). But that should not be considered a slight upon those faithful Saints of whatever age who are elders. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the perspective elders who never got ordained. Gee wizz. Now I feel like I'm in with the loosers. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
At 11:29 PM 10/23/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. Physically? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High priests
Till writes: What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. ___ Oh, Till. It serves a far more important purpose than that. As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the left hand just inside the wrist to check for a pulse. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote: Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with all the people of the world. Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though. That's what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on. By PH I'm well into nap-time. Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway! We had our Snake Conference this last weekend. Elder Pace told a story of Pres Hinckley: He starting to remind them that he's getting old. He never buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be called home. They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands will come to see it. Then the brethren will come to close the casket. When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and remind them that every investigator needs three things. . Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote: My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip. Till was Vulcanized once. To keep his brains from leaking out. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late Till who's too tired to go round and round on this, so just wheel me on out, but don't brake my belt 'cause my belly dunlop over it. Bet you think I heard that one on the radial, but it just keep spinning off of Till's rotor-tiller flat out. It sure was a good year. That's what you get for hanging out with people of my low caliper Can you stop beating that drum while I get my bearings I'll just go ply myself elswhere, Oh, my head, stop this biased tread ... Hs s s s s s s s s s s / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High priests
-Gary- The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. Yet, his keys are limited. As are the bishop's or stake president's. He cannot perform most of his responsibilities without the okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the presiding high priest in the stake. Just as the presiding high priest needs the okay of his superiors to exercise his keys. He cannot authorize the ordination of elders. He cannot authorize the calling and setting apart of his counselors. Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High Priesthood as those who officially preside. Not so. First, an elder holds the high Priesthood. Second, those keys reside only in the appropriate presiding high priests, not in the office of high priest. To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has to be a high priest. No. Currently, one must be an apostle. A stake president cannot call and set apart another stake president. There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. You have already made this assertion. I just want to see some evidence of this claim. I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum requirements for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior to us being kings and priests unto God and his Father we will have to obtain the right of presidency, which pertains to high priests in the high priesthood. Again, I would like more than your assertion that this is the case. Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder and leave it at that? Asking the question is hardly producing evidence. I could just as well ask, Why have deacons and teachers? Why have seventies? Or why not? The answer is the same: Because that is how the Lord chose to restore his Priesthood at this time. However, once exalted, one will have to have the right of presidency and to hold those keys, which keys belong to the high priest's office. Not so. There are two usages of the term keys that apply here, and your sentence above doesn't conform to either usage. The first is a key of knowledge, of the right to communicate with God by virtue of the Preisthood, such as DC 6:28, the keys of translation. The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels; the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God (DC 84:19) and the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church (DC 107:18). These keys belong to the Priesthood itself, not to any particular office therein, and all those who hold and honor the Priesthood they hold have access to these keys. The second usage of the term keys is the right of presidency. These keys reside in the presiding authority, be he deacon, teacher, bishop, elder, high priest, or apostle. These keys are often associated with an office; however, no office of the Priesthood confers such keys on those ordained to the office. Rather, the keys are explicitly conferred on those called as leaders. You seem to believe that the office of high priest is both eternal (which I see no evidence for) and also the highest office (which is demonstrably false). I have never heard taught by any authorized person the idea that all men must eventually be ordained to the current office of high priest in order to achieve exaltation. I believe this to be a false precept. If you can substantiate it with something other than your say-so, I'd love to come to understand. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an Africa man and N. Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the early 60s. Both of them were fast-tracked into GA-hood, if I can put it that way). Paul Osborne wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High priests
Gary said: There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), Yep. but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. I don't think so Gary and neither does Bruce R. McConkie: Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, where man becomes as God is. I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests
It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. This happens depending upon the make up of the quorums/groups in a ward/branch. If a unit has tons of MP, then there's no problem in moving a mature member into the higher quorum, where that person will fill more comfortable. Secondly, the reality is: training in the elder's quorum tends to be on a more basic level, due to the fact that one has all the newly baptized 3 month elders and adult aged priests in the quorum. The HP quorum, besides getting the needed sleep, should also be getting a higher level of doctrinal teaching. BTW, the sleeping one sees us doing is actually the quorum receiving revelation from on high. We're actually in a trance ;-) Some strength needs to be left in an elder's quorum, but as long as there are a bunch of experienced 40-something elders in the quorum, it usually keeps younger brethren from opportunities of presidency and growth. I'm very glad to have lived in Montgomery all these years, as it has given me huge opportunities of growth in the quorums. I would have never imagined I'd be in a bishopric at 28 years of age, for example. Our elders quorums tend to be very young here, as there just aren't a lot of bodies, and so people quickly get called into positions of line authority requiring HP ordination. But it forces all of us to step up to the plate and serve. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. Gary Smith wrote: Okay, Stephen questioned my assertions. I guess my being a highly high priest wasn't authoritative for him The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. Yet, his keys are limited. He cannot perform most of his responsibilities without the okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the presiding high priest in the stake. He cannot authorize the ordination of elders. He cannot authorize the calling and setting apart of his counselors. Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High Priesthood as those who officially preside. To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has to be a high priest. To be a temple president, one has to be a high priest. To hold all the keys of presidency in a stake or the Church, one has to be a high priest. There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. There are keys that are not given to an elder in presidency. I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum requirements for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior to us being kings and priests unto God and his Father we will have to obtain the right of presidency, which pertains to high priests in the high priesthood. Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder and leave it at that? The requirement in this life is to obtain the MP, regardless of office. There is nothing wrong with being an elder, because it contains as much MP as is needed for qualifying for exaltation. However, once exalted, one will have to have the right of presidency and to hold those keys, which keys belong to the high priest's office. And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing about. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
