Re: [ZION] The Small World of the Church

2003-11-16 Thread Doug McGee
Small world indeed.

Just so happens that Val Williams lives in South Bend.  Well,
that's where my wife is from too.  Turns out that she and
Val were good friends in South Bend before I captured here and
married her off here in Utah.
I've never had the opportunity to meet Val but hope to one of
these days when we visit Karen's family in South Bend.
Doug

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[ZION] The Small World of the Church

2003-11-15 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
I just wanted to share with you all something really neat.  You know, as
members of the church, it doesn't matter where we are, if we are with
fellow LDS, we have a lot to talk about.  It makes the world a smaller
place.  Inevitably, someone you meet knows someone you know, and you feel
a closer connection.  This is a story kinda like that.

Well, way back before our wards spilt, a young couple moved into the
ward.  They had no children and he was there to do a three year residency
at Memorial Hospital.  When they found out they could not have children,
they began adopting.  I remember Stacy crying as she held her first baby
girl, saying, She's so beautiful.  I'd have taken her if she were
homely, but look at her, she's just soo beautiful!  They were blessed
with a second daughter, and just this past month, a son.

When Miles finished his residency, he set up practice here.  I have
always felt so close to Miles and Stacy.  When Tom died, Miles was a huge
source of comfort.  I was extremely ill during the visitation, so I had
to sit down to receive people, and Miles knelt down, held my hand, and
spoke as a great priethood leader, of things not of this world, but in
the world to come.  Just lately, he was called as Bishop (about a month
ago) for the South Bend Ward.  

O.K. now, I love doing genealogy.  I have always loved reading histories
and uncovering the mysteries we call ancestors.  I especially love
reading my dad's history.  He died 23 years ago, so I feel close to him
when I read his stuff.  Last year, my sister found a legal pad that had
Dad's handwritten draft of the typed history we all have.  It is
different from the typed version, more raw and with details he left out
of the typed version for some reason.  I used that handwritten version to
share with my students this week, my dad's expreiences in WWII (we are
doing a veteran's unit).  Thursday, after I'd read this to my last class,
I decided to re-read it for myself.  I love to read his thoughts.  Well,
page 13 contained some notes he scribbled.  It was obviously his notes
for the section he called the Fabulous Fifties.  It was during the 50's
that he married my mom, had most of us kids, and joined the church. (as a
side note, Orrin Hatch was one of my parent's missionaries).

Anyway, one of the little notes said, 7 Dec 1957 Pat. Blessing,  Reed
Andrew, Detrioit Stake.  Now, I have seen my dad's patriarchal blessing
numerous times.  I love reading over it.  What I had never connected, is
that his patriarch, Reed Andrew, didn't have an 's' on the end of his
name.  (connecting point here)  This is the same as Miles and Stacy
Andrew.  As it turns out, Reed is Miles's grandfather!  Stacy said that
Reed is the one who sealed them when they were married--that he was a
sealer in Salt Lake, and got special permission to fly to Chicago to seal
them.  How cool is that!  Reed has since passed, but think about this;
when my parents were baptized, they lived in Ohio.   What are the odds,
that in Northern Indiana, some 46 years later, descendents of early
midwest saints would connect like this.

Gotta love the TRUE church.
val

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Re: [ZION] The Small World of the Church

2003-11-15 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 10:50 AM 11/15/2003, Val wrote:
I just wanted to share with you all something really neat.
Val,

Thanks for sharing--it helped brighten my day!



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The overall performance of the college graduates in the Convention of 1787 
speaks forcefully for the proposition that Latin, rhetoric, philosophy, and 
mathematics can be a healthy fare for political heroes.Clinton Rossiter

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Re: [ZION] The Small World of the Church

2003-11-15 Thread Rusty Taylor
Valerie-- what a great story! I think this would make a great thread--
The Small World of the Church. To start things off, here's one that just
happened in our family.

Our oldest son, Chuck, is serving in the Tennessee Nashville Mission and
was just transfered to Clarksville TN where he got a new companion and
participated in a transfer conference.

Flashback; for several years some of our early morning seminary classes
were held in the teachers home. my wife would help by picking up kids and
taking them to the teachers home (this was before she launched her seminary
teaching career).  One young man, who was not especially active, needed a
ride, so my wife would leave extra early to get him because he lived out of
the way.  The teacher specifically asked my wife to pick him up, because he
probably would not make the class. There were days, when Alan would not be
ready, or was sleeping in, sometimes a couple of days in a row, when my
wife would wonder-- what am I doing this for, he doesn't care about
seminary. After that year the boy moved back with his family and we lost
contact with him.

back to transfer conference;  in my sons own words
   I got my new comp yesterday. His name is Elder Klienman. But wait,
yesterday at the transfer meeting in nashville you will never guess who I
saw. Go ahead guess... I ran into Elder Drone!!! You remember him? Remember
Allen that we took to seminary and stuff?? He is in MY MISSION It was
so crazy when we saw each other. I still cant believe it. He has been out
for about 13 or so months. It was awesome!!!

it is indeed a much smaller world when you are a member of the Lords Church.

anyone else want to volunteer a story?

Bob  Rusty Taylor

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RE: [ZION] The Small World of the Church

2003-11-15 Thread hkpage
That's just too neat of a story!  A real day-brightener...thanks for
sharing!

Heidi the fair


 [Original Message]
 From: Valerie Nielsen Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 11/15/2003 11:59:36 AM
 Subject: [ZION] The Small World of the Church

 I just wanted to share with you all something really neat.  You know, as
 members of the church, it doesn't matter where we are, if we are with
 fellow LDS, we have a lot to talk about.  It makes the world a smaller
 place.  Inevitably, someone you meet knows someone you know, and you feel
 a closer connection.  This is a story kinda like that.

 Well, way back before our wards spilt, a young couple moved into the
 ward.  They had no children and he was there to do a three year residency
 at Memorial Hospital.  When they found out they could not have children,
 they began adopting.  I remember Stacy crying as she held her first baby
 girl, saying, She's so beautiful.  I'd have taken her if she were
 homely, but look at her, she's just soo beautiful!  They were blessed
 with a second daughter, and just this past month, a son.

 When Miles finished his residency, he set up practice here.  I have
 always felt so close to Miles and Stacy.  When Tom died, Miles was a huge
 source of comfort.  I was extremely ill during the visitation, so I had
 to sit down to receive people, and Miles knelt down, held my hand, and
 spoke as a great priethood leader, of things not of this world, but in
 the world to come.  Just lately, he was called as Bishop (about a month
 ago) for the South Bend Ward.  

 O.K. now, I love doing genealogy.  I have always loved reading histories
 and uncovering the mysteries we call ancestors.  I especially love
 reading my dad's history.  He died 23 years ago, so I feel close to him
 when I read his stuff.  Last year, my sister found a legal pad that had
 Dad's handwritten draft of the typed history we all have.  It is
 different from the typed version, more raw and with details he left out
 of the typed version for some reason.  I used that handwritten version to
 share with my students this week, my dad's expreiences in WWII (we are
 doing a veteran's unit).  Thursday, after I'd read this to my last class,
 I decided to re-read it for myself.  I love to read his thoughts.  Well,
 page 13 contained some notes he scribbled.  It was obviously his notes
 for the section he called the Fabulous Fifties.  It was during the 50's
 that he married my mom, had most of us kids, and joined the church. (as a
 side note, Orrin Hatch was one of my parent's missionaries).

 Anyway, one of the little notes said, 7 Dec 1957 Pat. Blessing,  Reed
 Andrew, Detrioit Stake.  Now, I have seen my dad's patriarchal blessing
 numerous times.  I love reading over it.  What I had never connected, is
 that his patriarch, Reed Andrew, didn't have an 's' on the end of his
 name.  (connecting point here)  This is the same as Miles and Stacy
 Andrew.  As it turns out, Reed is Miles's grandfather!  Stacy said that
 Reed is the one who sealed them when they were married--that he was a
 sealer in Salt Lake, and got special permission to fly to Chicago to seal
 them.  How cool is that!  Reed has since passed, but think about this;
 when my parents were baptized, they lived in Ohio.   What are the odds,
 that in Northern Indiana, some 46 years later, descendents of early
 midwest saints would connect like this.

 Gotta love the TRUE church.
 val

 .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
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[ZION] In the World

2002-11-19 Thread Gary Smith
Here are a few uses of the statement:

Church members today are not a geographically or politically separate
people; we are mingled among the people of the world—and for the Lord's
purposes. So the prophetic counsel given is often to be individually
applied, but it still requires the same obedience.
Being in the world but not of it makes our having the Spirit even more
vital. Life in ancient Israel was life in a complete community of
believers. Having the Spirit was vital then, but it is equally essential
when we are among so many disbelievers—like Jonah in Nineveh. (All These
Things Shall Give Thee Experience, Neal Maxwell, pg 103).

This question of being in the world but not of it, is a question of
increasing concern—because, in effect, the world is ever shrinking in
size—and we come ever closer to the influence and attitudes of others—and
there is ever more compelling pressures to be as others are, to do as
others do, with questions of compromise and of preserving principles—how
far to go, how different to be, how to live comfortably among men. One of
life's most important problems is learning to get along with the people
with whom we live in the world, without compromising principles, and one
of the plausible ways of getting along with people is to make concessions
pertaining to principle—to go the way of the world, whatever way that is,
which no one really knows, because the worl has so many different ways.
It is quite impossible to do everything everyone else wants us to do or
to please all people, because everyone else wants us to do something
different, and abandoning principles is no solution to the problem of
getting along with people. (Pres McKay, General Conference, April 1959).

Then there is Elder Eyring, quoting C.S. Lewis:

I would prefer to be entirely original on this topic, but for me the
necessary starting point on consecrating our learning is an essay by C.
S. Lewis I first read many years ago entitled Learning in War-Time. It
is probably not academically correct in this setting to summarize someone
else's work, but I would like to do just that in part tonight for reasons
which will surely become obvious.
 The essay is actually a talk Lewis gave to students at Oxford in 1939,
at the start of World War II. He addressed the question how students
could proceed with a collegiate education when a great war for freedom
was being fought in Europe. Lewis approached the question by looking at
the analogous challenge for the Christian to be in the world but not of
it: 
-[The Christian] must ask himself how it is right, or even
psychologically possible, for creatures who are every moment advancing
either to Heaven or to hell to spend any fraction of the little time
allowed them in this world on such comparative trivialities as literature
or art, mathematics or biology. (C. S. Lewis, Learning in War-Time, in
The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses [New York: Macmillan, 1965], p.
21).
Lewis goes on to explain that wartime is in one sense not extraordinary
because life is never ordinary; women and men have always had to go on
about the tasks of daily life while events or compelling causes swirl
around them. Lewis observed about his own life:
-Before I became a Christian I do not think I fully realized that one's
life, after conversion, would inevitably consist in doing most of the
same things one had been doing before, one hopes, in a new spirit, but
still the same things (p. 23).
Lewis rejects the notion that the daily activities of life can be shelved
in favor of great causes:
-If you attempted . . . to suspend your whole intellectual and aesthetic
activity, you would only succeed in substituting a worse cultural life
for a better. You are not, in fact, going to read nothing, either in the
church or in the line; if you don't read good books, you will read bad
ones. If you don't go on thinking rationally, you will think
irrationally. If you reject aesthetic satisfactions, you will fall into
sensual satisfactions. (Pp. 23-24.)
Lewis then describes the essence of consecration:
- All our merely natural activities will be accepted, if they are
offered to God, even the humblest, and all of them, even the noblest,
will be sinful if they are not. Christianity does not simply replace our
natural life and substitute a new one; it is rather a new organization
which exploits, to its own supernatural ends, these natural materials. .
. . I reject at once an idea which lingers in the mind of some modern
people that cultural activities are in their own right spiritual and
meritorious-as though scholars and poets were intrinsically more pleasing
to God than scavengers and bootblacks. . . . The work of a Beethoven and
the work of a charwoman becomes spiritual on precisely the same
condition, that of being offered to God, of being done humbly as to the
Lord. (Pp. 25-26.)
Having described consecration generally, Lewis warned of a special danger
for the intellectual:
-The intellectual life is not the only road to 

[ZION] In the World

2002-11-19 Thread Gary Smith
You know, I really like a lot of what Nibley says. However, he more often
points out the questions, without fleshing out the answers. He tells us
he has chosen consecration. Yet, he doesn't mention how he implements it.
Was he living consecration when he held off being married until he was in
his forties? Does moving out of the neighborhood mean moving to Provo? 
Does he just turn over his retirement checks to his bishop in fast
offerings?
I would personally prefer to live in Zion, not the world. However, until
the rest of you get your act together and join me there, I'm forced to
dwell somewhere.  ;-)

As it is, I think that Nibley is reading the phrase differently than our
LDS leaders do, or at least is taking it from a different angle. He wants
Zion built, and for all of us to move out of Babylon into Zion.  Until
that happens, our leaders realize we are going to dwell in small groups
among the Gentiles of the world. Our leaders see this as a good thing, in
that it allows us to promote the gospel, spreading it forth. There was a
time when Joseph and Brigham called the saints to gather out from the
world. That will occur again, I believe. But for now, our command is to
dwell amongst others, in the hopes we can lift them up, convert some, and
learn to live righteously in a wicked world. However, I do believe with
Nibley, that many saints have forsaken their vows of consecration for a
worldly comfort. How else can you explain the cheap labor rates and high
house costs in Utah? Both suggest greed.
K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Nibley:The Lord has repeatedly commanded and forced his people to 
flee out of the world into the wilderness, quite literally; there is 
only one way to avoid becoming involved in the neighborhood brawls, and 
that is to move out of the neighborhood. There is nothing in the 
Constitution that forbids me doing certain things I have covenanted and 
promised to do; if the neighbors don't like it, they have no legal 
grounds against me, but there are ways of getting me to move; the 
tribulation. . . shall descend upon you, said the Lord, but do things 
my way and my providence will see you through (DC 78:14). This 
inescapable conflict is part of our human heritage, as we learn from 
dramatic passages of scripture.


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[ZION] In the World

2002-11-19 Thread Gary Smith
But it is possible. We may be sinners now, but the Lord has shown us that
we can become perfected through Him. There are perfect men living on the
earth right now. At one point, they were sinners and required the
atonement of Christ to atone for those sins. Since then, they have
achieved a level of righteousness wherein they, of themselves, stand
approved before God. They do live in the world without partaking of the
sins of the world. I believe President Benson was one of them, which is
why he knew what he was speaking of.
For those of us not quite to that point, we must move line upon line,
precept by precept to that level of obedience. As we repent, Christ
perfects us to new and higher levels of perfection, until we also can be
among those who do not partake of the sins of the world.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe



It is possible to live in the world and not partake of the sins of the
world.
Ezra Taft Benson--Apr 1991
First Presidency Message Keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work 
 
 
No. It is not possible for any of us. We are all sinners. 
 Paul O


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[ZION] In the World

2002-11-18 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
OK, Zionisti, research time.


In the world but not of it or something of it's ilk.   What's the source 
of the saying?



Till the questioning

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Re: [ZION] In the World

2002-11-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
That's a darned good question. The Sufis use this saying (that's a mystical branch
of Sunni Islam especially common in Egypt and Turkey), and it's also well known in
Catholic and Mennonite traditions.

My guess is that it came into creedal Christianity as an aphorism via Augustine,
but that's a guess. In any case, John 17:14-16 would appear to be the original NT
source as far as Christianity is concerned. That's my contribution, anyway.



Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 OK, Zionisti, research time.

 In the world but not of it or something of it's ilk.   What's the source
 of the saying?

 Till the questioning

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Re: [ZION] In the World

2002-11-18 Thread Paul Osborne
It is possible to live in the world and not partake of the sins of the
world.
Ezra Taft Benson--Apr 1991
First Presidency Message Keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work 


No. It is not possible for any of us. We are all sinners. 

Paul O
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RE: [ZION] In the World

2002-11-18 Thread Jim Cobabe

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:
---
In the world but not of it or something of it's ilk.   What's the 
source of the saying?
---

According to Nibley--

That is, when I find myself called upon to stand up and be counted, to 
declare myself on one side or the other, which do I prefer—gin or rum, 
cigarettes or cigars, tea or coffee, heroin or LSD, the Red Rose or the 
White, Shiz or Coriantumr, wicked Nephites or wicked Lamanites, Whigs or 
Tories, Catholic or Protestant, Republican or Democrat, black power or 
white power, land pirates or sea pirates, commissars or corporations, 
capitalism or communism? The devilish neatness and simplicity of the 
thing is the easy illusion that I am choosing between good and evil, 
when in reality two or more evils by their rivalry distract my attention 
from the real issue. The oldest trick in the book for those who wish to 
perpetrate a great crime unnoticed is to set up a diversion, such as a 
fight in the street or a cry of fire in the hall, that sends everyone 
rushing to the spot while the criminal as an inconspicuous and highly 
respectable citizen quietly walks off with the loot.

It can be shown that in each of the choices just named, one of the pair 
may well be preferable to the other, but that is not the question. There 
is no point in arguing which other system comes closest to the law of 
consecration, since I excluded all other systems when I opted for the 
real thing. The relative merits of various economies is a problem for 
the gentiles to worry about, a devil's dilemma that does not concern me 
in the least. For it so happens that I have presently covenanted and 
promised to observe most strictly certain instructions set forth with 
great clarity and simplicity in the Doctrine and Covenants. These are 
designated as the law of consecration, which are absolutely essential 
for the building up of the kingdom on earth and the ultimate 
establishment of Zion. Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I 
prepare you, and the foundation and the ensample which I give unto you, 
whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you; that 
through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall 
descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other 
creatures beneath the celestial world (DC 78:13-14). It is all there, 
this law of consecration, by which alone the Saints can implement God's 
plans for Zion in spite of the persecution it will bring on them; this 
is the foundation on which they must build (see DC 48:6). The 
alternative is to be dependent on baser things, for Zion cannot be 
built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial 
kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself (DC 105:5).

But should I ask for tribulation? I live in the real world, don't I? 
Yes, and I have been commanded to come out of her,. . . that ye be not 
partakers of her sins (Revelation 18:4). It is not given unto you that 
ye shall live after the manner of the world (DC 95:13). Well, then, 
you must be in the world but not of the world. That happens to be a 
convenient para-scripture (we have quite a few of them today), invented 
by a third-century Sophist (Diognetos), to the great satisfaction of the 
church members, who were rapidly becoming very worldly. The passage as 
it appears in the scriptures says quite the opposite: For [whatsoever] 
that is in the world. . . is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 
John 2:16). The Lord has repeatedly commanded and forced his people to 
flee out of the world into the wilderness, quite literally; there is 
only one way to avoid becoming involved in the neighborhood brawls, and 
that is to move out of the neighborhood. There is nothing in the 
Constitution that forbids me doing certain things I have covenanted and 
promised to do; if the neighbors don't like it, they have no legal 
grounds against me, but there are ways of getting me to move; the 
tribulation. . . shall descend upon you, said the Lord, but do things 
my way and my providence will see you through (DC 78:14). This 
inescapable conflict is part of our human heritage, as we learn from 
dramatic passages of scripture.


(Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion, edited by Don E. Norton [Salt Lake City 
and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon 
Studies, 1989], 163 - 164.)

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