Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-19 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Alright. Let's start over. What exactly in the US State Dept. press release leads
you to a conclusion other than the US got the documents first, when that is
explicitly pointed out in the government's own press briefing?

If you feel I've ignored a question you've raised, please remind me what it was.

Larry Jackson wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not
 need to spin anything. Here it is again, since you keep
 deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the
 courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
 (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:

 ___

 And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point.  Since
 you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me
 the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
 (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error.

 You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be
 correct, and you tried to blew it off.  So at this point, I
 am not talking about your point.  I am still talking about
 my point, if you even remember what it was.

 I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine.  I'm
 sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus
 on one thing at a time.  It's an error I often make.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

 Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible.

And again, in the QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off.
Have  you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other
Security Council members?

 Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

 So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the
 Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack
 at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing:  ...

 ___

 This just is true, I'm afraid.  And your excerpt begins by
 saying just what I said.

 That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person
 running the copy center is your prerogative.  That you feel
 the spokesman was not appropriate because the US
 didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in
 Canada is also your prerogative.


That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier
thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a
politician because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet
spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems.


 Enjoy your prerogative.


It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing.
You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to spin
anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so
please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
(which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:

===
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

 Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible.

And again, in the QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking
the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have  you
received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council
members?

 Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

 So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ...
 You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

 ___

 I'm not criticizing anything.  You are ignoring my point and I
 am ignoring your bait.

 Spin on.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-17 Thread Marc A. Schindler
This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council,
but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State
Dept. briefing:

Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02:

The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily  media briefing in Washington December 10.

 REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE
MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
[emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working
document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as
possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to
its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while
drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to
accelerate the review,  Reeker said.

In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the
Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to
assess the  risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin
reviewing that document,  full copies of the report have been made available to
those members of the Council  that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday,
the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to
assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against
the inadvertent release of information.

And from the press corps QA session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here
to copy them off. Have
you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members
or other Security
Council members?

Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have
their copies, as I think
we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the
Council president's decision
-- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the
resolution -- we assisted in
ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive
information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of
those members with that
expertise and all together we will be assessing the full
document to see about
proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make
available to other
members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty
evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with
expertise in this matter happen to be the other permanent members of the
Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other
countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For
instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place.

Gary Smith wrote:

 Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it
 at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US
 did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to
 ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of
 non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now).
 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 Marc:
 No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it
 to other
 permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations
 (technically
 speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was
 public
 news, I'm not making it up.

 
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston 

RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-17 Thread larry . jackson
Marc Schindler:

This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the 
Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack 
at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing:  ...

___

This just is true, I'm afraid.  And your excerpt begins by 
saying just what I said.

That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person 
running the copy center is your prerogative.  That you feel 
the spokesman was not appropriate because the US 
didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in 
Canada is also your prerogative.

Enjoy your prerogative.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Jon Spencer wrote:

 So let me get this straight.  First you postulate that the Americans took
 the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection.  Then you use that
 supposition to say That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far
 more dangerous to you than Iraq.

 Did I get this correctly?

No. Reread my post. I said the publicly stated, the proximate reason, was so that
recipes for CBW didn't make it into the public realm (which is credible).  The
ultimate reason was that, because of the age of most of the material, there was a
danger that the ultimate source of the technology would become public: the USA to
Pakistan when Pakistan was its client in South Asia during the Cold War.

I'm not suggesting you bomb Pakistan. I'm suggesting you keep your weapons of mass
destruction at home.

 If so, if your first supposition is incorrect
 

 Ah, what the heck.  Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with.  THEN we
 can bomb Iraq.  No, wait!  North Korea first, then - um - Iran!  Then
 Canada.  And THEN Iraq!

 I got it now!

 Jon

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:

 By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi
 government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before
 other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that
 they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for
 weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't
 make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know
 how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to
 censor the Iraqi material is

 because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and
 was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.

 Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far
 more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's
 pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the
 November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately
 obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy
 the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US
 makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise
 up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the
 south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the
 U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite
 rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how
 stupid the US thinks Iraqis are.

 And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist
 action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this,
 or if you'll, once again, just ask huh? wha' happened? By then you'll
 be blaming Pakistanis.

 You heard it here first.

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other
permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically
speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public
news, I'm not making it up. Here's a post to an official US state department
briefing on the issue: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02121208.htm
[incidentally, for those who still think the rest of the world operates the way
the US does, note that if this were a Canadian government document, the director
of communications would not be interviewed by journalists as in this briefing
record and QA session -- it would be the minister who would be interviewed].

Think, too, that it's in Iraq's best interests to cloud the issue, as it were, by
showing this kind of complication.

Incidentally, I've also said that the U.S. won't invade Iraq when push comes to
shove -- that while the U.S. administration may in fact be quite sincere in their
concern about Iraq, their first priority was the mid-term elections. Now that the
Republicans did better than many dared hope, the need for a wag the dog
scenario is fading, and the doves are getting the upper hand. Two complete naval
battle groups have started sailing *away* from the Middle East:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=2B634666-9A17-4525-9558-1FA9C23496BB

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the
 Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The
 U.S. took it before other Security Council members could
 look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure
 certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of
 mass destruction didn't get made public. But this
 doesn't make sense --

 ___

 Of course it doesn't make sense.  It didn't happen that way.

 That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the
 U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S.
 made more copies for them.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

2002-12-11 Thread larry . jackson
Marc Schindler:

By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the 
Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The 
U.S. took it before other Security Council members could 
look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure 
certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of 
mass destruction didn't get made public. But this 
doesn't make sense -- 

___

Of course it doesn't make sense.  It didn't happen that way.

That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the 
U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S. 
made more copies for them.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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