Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Cousin Bill
At some point in the past, Paul asked: So, who all on this list voted for Bush? - Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Cousin Bill
At some point in the past, Jon wrote: Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time. -- As did many other people that I know and love. I won't hold it (your voting for Bush) against you if you won't hold (the other) it (my not voting for Bush -- and no, I didn't vote for

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am) I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 10:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Cousin Bill wrote: Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. I have noticed that on some of the websites run by people with politics similar to my

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Sounds reasonable to me. Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his Gadianton accusations? Paul O On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:15:49 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I look at it this

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Marc: Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Paul Osborne wrote: My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him. That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy! I'm not sure I see that, but I won't argue the point. Second, it

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Marc: Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
OK. I was just wondering -- I won't argue the point. Paul Osborne wrote: Marc: Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 01:39 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his Gadianton accusations? Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Glad to hear it. I have to admit I never got to know many of the locals when I lived there, but I had a companion from Provo, and he'd had no idea. That just goes to show you the power of anecdotal statistics, I guess. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 01:38 AM 10/20/2002, Marc wrote: all built on

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). Paul Osborne wrote: Sorry Marc, I think

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). I don't know if Bush is listening to US

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't like got called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this guy was in over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do? I raise my hand to sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process.

Re: [ZION] hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary wins a two-week vacation on the Black Sea! Gary Smith wrote: We had placed missiles in Turkey. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
So seth you. I sis it differently. My name is Anubeth. Who hath a problem with that? -- a recent New Yorker cartoon. Paul Osborne wrote: Are you certain that our God is the one who commanded the Egyptian Pharaoh? Maybe it was one of those gods with animal heads. Hey--Joseph Smith identified

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary Smith wrote: Okay, why not Pakistan? I admit they are a nuclear power. I admit there are many radical Islamists there. However, just as in Iraq, Musharaf is a secular leader. He may be Muslim, but does not show forth the radicalism of others. We don't need to risk war with someone who

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-17 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I don't know where Pres. Hinckley or Monson stand -- to my knowledge they've never said -- but Pres. Faust has been active in the Democratic Party for years, and has made no secret about it. N. Eldon Tanner, a member of a 1P who has personal meaning for me (because I met him when I was a young

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:04:23 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: At 19:23 10/16/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: We all have something of value to bring to the Church, even the lowliest among us. You rang No, Till, I think that was for me. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in pre-emptive attacks. Captain Moroni's pre-emptive attacks were in the context of an ongoing war. I don't believe he ever attacked the Lamanites or the Gadiantons during a time of

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 14:57 10/15/2002 -0400, mean ol' Jon wrote: Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8)) No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're tired now Noo, n, no whine, whine Till (Where's the Tam when we really

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 15:03 10/15/2002 -0400, Jon the confused wrote: Opps! You are a Bishop now, aren't you? Well, you say you want another ward? You're wacko! Jon Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8)) No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer
I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR You need not be commanded in all things. Some things are obvious! :-) Jon / ///

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer
John - Surely you miswrote! Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war with terrorists (the Gadiantons)? Or are you saying that the only time the Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also attacking the Nephites? If so, then its back to the Book of Mormon

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:22:48 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8)) Till, Scott is tired too. However, should you feel it worth calling an award, I consider you my friend and that is not an award I hand out often or

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
The Lord explicitly says that if we follow his conditions he'll fight our wars for us. Jon Spencer wrote: I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR You need not be commanded in all things. Some

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer
Marc A. Schindler wrote: DC states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out battles for us. Doesn't God do most of His work through us? Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Mark Gregson
My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is no way to run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority of the people to repent and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the people of the Book of Mormon had to do. I agree. So it isn't going to

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them, until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should NOT be making war on Iraq.

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:19:38 -0400, Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: John - Surely you miswrote! Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war with terrorists (the Gadiantons)? Or are you saying that the only time the Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:00:46 -0800, John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them, until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to be peacemakers. I

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Scott McGee wrote: Mark, Marc, and John, Let me ask you a questions. I accept that our government is sufficiently controlled by gadiantons that I have no real voice it. I see no way to elect a truly worthy candidate now. My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see,

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I'm sure he does. But I was just repeating the promise as written. Jon Spencer wrote: Marc A. Schindler wrote: DC states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out battles for us. Doesn't God do most of His work through us? Jon -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove,

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne
All be if you were to do a study you would learn that the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years supply of food that the average active member. They vote differently too, so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand before the Judge.

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 01:02 10/16/2002 +0800, Bishop Mark wrote: Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8)) Now don't start that again! Two more years, my friend. I know, I know, but in a moment of weakness we succumbed to temptation .. Till

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne
I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is apparently not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we who can clearly see these things have other areas where we are blind.

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne
I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have different gifts. Yeah, the gift to elect a Gadianton Robber for President. It sure was close. Thank you UTAH! ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Marc A. Schindler
And these are wars of expansion how, exactly? Utah taking over Colorado with the Lord's angels at the head of legions of BYU sophomores? Johnson's Army was a long time ago. We are not beset by the kind of situation that the Israelites were. Steven Montgomery wrote: While I agree with you

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Mark Gregson
So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a far greater threat. You have got to admire Marc for his tenacity. I vote for some kind of award for him for this constant call to examine just who needs to be pounded. John is beating the same drum with

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Mark Gregson
Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8)) Now don't start that again! Two more years, my friend. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at

RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Larry Jackson
John Redelfs: After careful consideration, Larry Jackson wrote: I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I think we're after him because our president believes he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler
And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use the term Bible less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between OT and NT ideas). Jon Spencer wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy mission,

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Steven Montgomery
So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down great stones from heaven to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Steven Montgomery
While I agree with you regarding righteous wars, I don't necessarily agree with your statement that Zion doesn't expand through warfare anymore. For instance, why has the Lord repeatedly stated that, after we have done our part, He would fight our battles. -- Steven Montgomery At 07:41 PM

RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread larry . jackson
John Redelfs: And Saddam is? What makes you think he is behind the attack on 9-11? Actually, if you trace the money and arms back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling.

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Redelfs: And Saddam is? What makes you think he is behind the attack on 9-11? Actually, if you trace the money and arms back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, Iraqis, Afghanis,

RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I think we're after him because our president believes he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to do so.

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of your investigations? Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown? How about the heads of state in Libya, Syria, Cuba, and North Korea, just to start the list? How about

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
No? Who financed the al-Qaeda. It wasn't Iraq. It was Saudi Arabians, using Pakistan as a training base, and Afghanistan as a base of operations. Sure Iraq probably had a hand in it -- probably every ME country except Israel and Jordan did in one way or another. What I don't understand is this

Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne
John W. Redelfs wrote: Sadam doesn't have an ideology. If he does, it is I'm boss, and I'll crush anyone who tries to tear down my power. Quite a few world leaders seem to share this ideology, even some in our own country. Jon Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of