Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have?  I wouldn't 
fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore 
Gadianton.  Who knows?  Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I 
did.  Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left
the 
presidential race unmarked.

Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted?


Dog-gonnit John! You made me laugh so hard I spit all over my screen!
Where is the bottle of alcohol so I can clean my screen?

choking, uhhh

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Cousin Bill
At some point in the past, Paul asked:

So, who all on this list
 voted for Bush?
-
Not I, said Cousin Bill.  Nor will I ever vote for a Bush.  I did vote for
the first Bush.  That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know
better.

Cousin Bill

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Cousin Bill
At some point in the past, Jon wrote:


 Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time.
--
As did many other people that I know and love.  I won't hold it (your voting
for Bush) against you if you won't hold (the other) it (my not voting for
Bush -- and no, I didn't vote for Gore, either) against me.

Deal?

Cousin Bill

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Not I, said Cousin Bill.  Nor will I ever vote for a Bush.  I did vote
for
the first Bush.  That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know
better.

Cousin Bill


Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am)

I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for him
again. Then I voted for Bush and have not been back to the polls since.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 10:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Cousin Bill wrote:

Not I, said Cousin Bill.  Nor will I ever vote for a Bush.  I did vote for 
the first Bush.  That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better.

I have noticed that on some of the websites run by people with politics 
similar to my own that they refer to the Bush crime family. heh heh  I 
put my faith in God, my Savior, the Prophet, my Stake President, my bishop, 
and myself.  I don't put any faith at all in politicians.  All of them are 
masters of looking good.  And because of that it is impossible to know what 
they are like underneath the public persona.

I must confess that I think of the Bush clan as the Bush crime family.  But 
I don't think they are any worse than the Kennedys, or the 
Rockefellers.  None of those fortunes were earned honestly.

This is why I am so into religion.  If I only knew the world, ie. Babylon, 
I would get so depressed I would never get over it.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
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of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the
gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, I
swallowed it.  So sue me.  --Jack Handy
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Sounds reasonable to me.

Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
Gadianton
accusations?

Paul O


On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:15:49 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't 
 like got
 called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this 
 guy was in
 over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do?  I raise 
 my hand to
 sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process. 
 Sustaining, to me,
 means to support the person the best I can. It doesn't magically 
 turn them into a
 wonderful, perfect person. We don't believe in infallibility (in 
 fact, there's a
 common joke to the effect that Catholics believe in infallibility 
 but don't
 practise it, and Mormons don't believe in infallibility but practise 
 it). But we
 owe it to God to support our leaders.
 
 Now the segué to politics, because it works on somewhat different 
 principles, but
 we do believe in sustaining and honoring secular leaders, too. That 
 means I have
 the freedom to vote for A, B, or C, and if I vote for B and A gets 
 in, then I
 work to support A. Even if I'm an opposition member or a member of a 
 different
 party, you are still supporting the government because you're active 
 and involved
 in the political process, as we've been advised to do. So you can 
 have your cake
 and eat it, too, so to speak.
 
 Paul Osborne wrote:
 
  I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I 
 was
  raising not
  the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the 
 money.  How
  do you
  know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a 
 less
  than
  sterling record).
 
  I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best 
 light.
  But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in 
 Chief. I
  have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or 
 I'll just
  be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing.


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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this
regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his
accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far
as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I don't
think it's a controversial view).

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Sounds reasonable to me.

 Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
 Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
 Gadianton
 accusations?

 Paul O


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Marc:
Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference
in this
regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his
accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS
doctrine as far
as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I
don't
think it's a controversial view).


My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is
it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him.
That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy!

Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet
does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list
voted for Bush?

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Paul Osborne wrote:



 My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is
 it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him.
 That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy!


I'm not sure I see that, but I won't argue the point.


 Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet
 does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list
 voted for Bush?


Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the
prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of
us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a
minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?


 Paul O

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Marc:
Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows?
(that the
prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the
rest of
us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only
apply to a
minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?


First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US
citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and
prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First
Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but
practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet
voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same.
Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails. 

he he

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
OK. I was just wondering -- I won't argue the point.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Marc:
 Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows?
 (that the
 prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the
 rest of
 us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only
 apply to a
 minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?

 First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US
 citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and
 prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First
 Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but
 practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet
 voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same.
 Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails.

 he he

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-22 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 01:39 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me.

Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
Gadianton accusations?


Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have?  I wouldn't 
fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore 
Gadianton.  Who knows?  Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I 
did.  Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the 
presidential race unmarked.

Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted?

Some of my best friends are Gadianton Robbers,
John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Glad to hear it. I have to admit I never got to know many of the locals when I
lived there, but I had a companion from Provo, and he'd had no idea. That just
goes to show you the power of anecdotal statistics, I guess.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 01:38 AM 10/20/2002, Marc wrote:
 all built on the sites of French-Canadian trading posts. Provo is, in
 fact, named
 after Etienne Provost, although I wonder if they teach that in school there.

 It was taught in Jr. High School (9th grade) when I took Utah History.

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
 selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
 politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
 --Steven W. Mosher

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not
the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money.  How do you
know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than
sterling record).

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Sorry Marc,

 I think Bush and his team know a whole lot more than you do. Also, the
 right-winger commentators on this list think they know so much but all
 they have is the media to get their information from. And guess what?
 That's where our enemies get their information too. That makes you all
 beggars for information. US Intelligence is way over your head, folks.
 You're out of your league.

 So there.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Paul Osborne
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was
raising not
the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money.  How
do you
know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less
than
sterling record).


I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best light.
But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in Chief. I
have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or I'll just
be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't like got
called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this guy was in
over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do?  I raise my hand to
sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process. Sustaining, to me,
means to support the person the best I can. It doesn't magically turn them into a
wonderful, perfect person. We don't believe in infallibility (in fact, there's a
common joke to the effect that Catholics believe in infallibility but don't
practise it, and Mormons don't believe in infallibility but practise it). But we
owe it to God to support our leaders.

Now the segué to politics, because it works on somewhat different principles, but
we do believe in sustaining and honoring secular leaders, too. That means I have
the freedom to vote for A, B, or C, and if I vote for B and A gets in, then I
work to support A. Even if I'm an opposition member or a member of a different
party, you are still supporting the government because you're active and involved
in the political process, as we've been advised to do. So you can have your cake
and eat it, too, so to speak.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was
 raising not
 the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money.  How
 do you
 know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less
 than
 sterling record).

 I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best light.
 But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in Chief. I
 have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or I'll just
 be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary wins a two-week vacation on the Black Sea!

Gary Smith wrote:

 We had placed missiles in Turkey.

 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 Marc:
 I know what you mean, but technically Khrushchev had nothing to do with
 the
 embargo of Cuba, which was put into place by the U.S. I think you mean
 the
 emplacement of missiles there. But what very few USAmericans realize, and
 what
 you apparently aren't taught is that this was in reprisal for something.
 Trivia
 time, boys and girls: anybody know what the original US action was that
 prompted
 the emplacement of missiles in Cuba?


 

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
So seth you. I sis it differently. My name is Anubeth. Who hath a problem with
that? -- a recent New Yorker cartoon.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Are you certain that our God is the one who commanded the Egyptian
 Pharaoh?  Maybe it was one of those gods with animal heads.

 Hey--Joseph Smith identified our God as one who has a bird head. It's
 right there in your scriptures and I believe it. God has a bird head!
 Amen.

 Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Gary Smith wrote:

 Okay, why not Pakistan? I admit they are a nuclear power. I admit there
 are many radical Islamists there. However, just as in Iraq, Musharaf is a
 secular leader. He may be Muslim, but does not show forth the radicalism
 of others. We don't need to risk war with someone who wishes peace with
 us. And spending a few billions of dollars on a nation to keep peace is
 much cheaper than spending tens of billions in a war.


But a) he's a dictator and not here by the will of the people; and b) will
eventually fall to an islamic fundamentalist government, just like the shah did
in neighbouring Iran. He also can't keep his terrorists out of Kashmir and thus
risks provoking the world's largest democracy to yet another war. And you're not
spending a few billions to keep the peace, you're spending a few billion to
continue training the ISI, the same group who trained the Taliban.

 Now, is this over oil? No. Because we now have several other major
 sources of oil (Canada, Mexico, Russia). Also, if we wanted more Iraqi
 oil, it would be cheaper and easier on all of us just to ask the UN to
 lift the sanctions against Iraq. We are more interested in the potential
 of Iraq spoiling and destabilizing the region, attacking Israel, and
 funding more terrorist attacks (possibly with weapons of mass
 destruction). There is a clear and present danger.


Then why did you buy almost 300 million bbls of oil from Iraq in 2001? (they were
your 6th largest supplier of crude oil according to the State Dept.)


 So, hopefully I've explained why we don't invade Pakistan and why we are
 targeting Iraq.


Unfortunately all I see is inconsistency and hidden assumptions which aren't
being examined.


 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-17 Thread Marc A. Schindler

I don't know where Pres. Hinckley or Monson stand -- to my knowledge they've
never said -- but Pres. Faust has been active in the Democratic Party for years,
and has made no secret about it. N. Eldon Tanner, a member of a 1P who has
personal meaning for me (because I met him when I was a young child and he was my
mother's stake president; I also know some of his grandchildren here in Alberta)
was also a Democrat once he moved to the States; before that he'd been a
long-serving member of Alberta's Social Credit government.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired.  They just have
 different gifts.  Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is
 apparently
 not one of them.  No problem.  They are strong in other areas.  And we
 who
 can clearly see these things have other areas where we are
 blind.  According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs
 all
 of the gifts in his Church.  We all have something of value to bring to
 the
 Church, even the lowliest among us.

 I'd pay top dollar to find out who the members of the First Presidency
 and the Quorum of the Twelve voted for.

 Marc; who was it that you said was a Democrat? I wonder if President
 Hinkley voted for Bush. Hmmm.

 I'll bet he did.

 Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:04:23 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 At 19:23 10/16/2002 -0800, BLT wrote:
 We all have something of value to bring to the Church, even the lowliest 
 among us.
 
 You rang

No, Till, I think that was for me.

Scott
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in pre-emptive 
attacks.

Captain Moroni's pre-emptive attacks were in the context of an ongoing 
war.  I don't believe he ever attacked the Lamanites or the Gadiantons 
during a time of peace.  I'm talking about the difference between a war and 
a battle.  Surely if we are at war, then a battle may morally be 
pre-emptive.  But we have not been at war with Iraq since the Persian Gulf 
War.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank

At 14:57 10/15/2002 -0400, mean ol' Jon wrote:
  Till is tired.  Does that mean he is not worthy of awards?  8))

No.  You want a ward?  You really want to be a Bishop?  You think you're
tired now 



Noo, n, no  whine, whine


Till  (Where's the Tam when we really need her?)

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank

At 15:03 10/15/2002 -0400, Jon the confused wrote:
Opps!  You are a Bishop now, aren't you?  Well, you say you want another
ward?  You're wacko!

Jon


   Till is tired.  Does that mean he is not worthy of awards?  8))
 
  No.  You want a ward?  You really want to be a Bishop?  You think you're
  tired now 
 



You seem to be confusing the lowly old Till, who is not worthy to tie 
shoes, with his exalted presence, the Bishop of Park and Ride.



Till   (ps, a thousand pardons, O Bishop Mark)

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer

 I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded 
 us.  But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he?  --JWR

You need not be commanded in all things.  Some things are obvious! :-)

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer

John -
Surely you miswrote!  Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war
with terrorists (the Gadiantons)?  Or are you saying that the only time the
Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also
attacking the Nephites?

If so, then its back to the Book of Mormon for you!

Or, perhaps, you are actually agreeing with us, and saying that we are at
war with the terrorists, wherever they may be, and you agree with Bush's
policy.  If so, I am pleased that you have finally come to your senses.

Jon

John W. Redelfs wrote:
 After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
 As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in
pre-emptive
 attacks.

 Captain Moroni's pre-emptive attacks were in the context of an ongoing
 war.  I don't believe he ever attacked the Lamanites or the Gadiantons
 during a time of peace.  I'm talking about the difference between a war
and
 a battle.  Surely if we are at war, then a battle may morally be
 pre-emptive.  But we have not been at war with Iraq since the Persian Gulf
 War.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee

On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:22:48 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 Till is tired.  Does that mean he is not worthy of awards?  8))

Till, Scott is tired too. However, should you feel it worth calling an
award, I consider you my friend and that is not an award I hand out
often or lightly.

Scott
--  
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down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler

The Lord explicitly says that if we follow his conditions he'll fight our wars
for us.

Jon Spencer wrote:

  I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded
  us.  But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he?  --JWR

 You need not be commanded in all things.  Some things are obvious! :-)

 Jon


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Jon Spencer

Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 DC states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out
battles for
 us.

Doesn't God do most of His work through us?

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Mark Gregson


 My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is no way to 
run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority of the people to repent 
and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the people of the Book of Mormon had to do.

I agree.  So it isn't going to happen before the Lord comes.  All we can do is save as 
many as possible before the end.

 I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to wage war with 
these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, once they are driven from 
control of the government, as they will certainly try to regain control by whatever 
means at their disposal.
 
You raise an interesting question (hypothetical, I'm sorry to say).  What _would_ 
happen if the vast majority of the people repented?  Let's simplify by considering 
only two levels of repentance: a lesser form of turning away from evil, and the 
greater version of repenting enough to be baptized.

1.) The vast majority of people turn away from evil.  To me this includes forsaking 
immorality, abortion, pornography, alcholhol, dishonesty, greed and so on.  For 
example, Hollywood would lose money on every immoral movie.  Abortions and divorces 
would drop to practically zero.  Fathers would not abuse or abandon spouses or 
children, etc.

However, people would still willingly serve in government, in the media, in the 
military and still have widely different views of how to do things.  

2.) People repent and accept the gospel.  All of the above, and more too, including 
actively following the prophets.

In either of these two scenarios (lamentably, neither of which will happen before the 
Lord comes) will the end result be bloodshed?  Let's assume that the Gadiantons and 
all the core supporters of present evil (e.g. the Hollywood producer who finances 
filthy movies) don't repent.  I really have no idea what would happen.  I guess it 
would depend on how quickly it happened, where it started and how desperate the bad 
guys became.

How would a Gadianton gain control in a righteous nation?  He could only do it by 
deceit.  But once he had some power, how could he use it?  He would be opposed at 
every step.  So he needs partners in crime, other Gadiantons that have gained their 
power by deceit. Okay, so now they have a cadre of wicked men in power, opposed by the 
vast majority of people.  That is, the people oppose what those men really want.  What 
will they do and how will they do it?

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote:
I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them,
until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to
be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should
NOT be making war on Iraq.

Good for you, Scott. It takes a Christlike man to abandon his wrong ideas 
to comply with the prophets.  I have a hard time doing it.  For instance, I 
am supposed to stop deliberately baiting the dissidents and Signaturi as I 
enjoy doing. I am suppose to put my arm around them and love them back into 
the Church, to strengthen the feeble knees, etc.


John W. Redelfs  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all
Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others,
finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the
way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that
that man is in the high road to apostacy  (Ehat  Cook,
WORDS OF JOSEPH SMITH, p. 413)

All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee

On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:19:38 -0400, Jon Spencer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 John -
 Surely you miswrote!  Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war
 with terrorists (the Gadiantons)?  Or are you saying that the only time
 the
 Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also
 attacking the Nephites?

The Nephite nation DID go to war with the Gadiantons. The gadiantons had
set up a society outside that of the Nephite and Lamanite society and
basically started a war. Once they brought large armies of men to attack
Nephite cities, then yes, the Nephites did go to war with them. It became
sort of a reverse seige. The Nephites, who were holed up inside their
fortifications, staved out the Gadiantons who were beseiging them.

Scott
--  
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down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/


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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee

On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:00:46 -0800, John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote:
 I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them,
 until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to
 be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should
 NOT be making war on Iraq.
 
 Good for you, Scott. It takes a Christlike man to abandon his wrong ideas 
 to comply with the prophets.

John,

You give me too much credit. I didn't support war with Iraq. I was a
fence sitter because I saw wisdom in both side's arguements. When a
Prophet of the Lord tells me that clearly, however, the debate is over
and I obey. (Usually! Some of the things I was told equally clearly are
still being worked on!)

Scott
--  
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down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler



Scott McGee wrote:

 Mark, Marc, and John,

 Let me ask you a questions. I accept that our government is sufficiently
 controlled by gadiantons that I have no real voice it. I see no way to
 elect a truly worthy candidate now.

 My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is
 no way to run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority
 of the people to repent and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the
 people of the Book of Mormon had to do.


I don't believe things are as far gone as others do. I believe much of the talk
of gadiantons being in power is the talk of the dispossessed -- those who feel
disenfranchised. Having said that, I know that as you gain more and more power,
business interests pay more and more attention to you. I'm with Mark Gregson
here, in believing that the Gadianton Robbers aren't a specific group of people
who get together at midnight and light candles on skulls for their meetings, but
simply the tendency of the military-industrial complex to integrate one with the
other (what do retired generals and admirals do? They become consultants '' ==
salesman for armaments companies). So John and I agree in principle, and I am
not really sure the differences in detail are all that important.

So what can we do? We have a 1P statement that *tells* us what to do: get
involved in the political system, and learn, while you're at it, how the system
works. Very many people get disillusioned because they think politics is about
right and wrong. I'm sorry to have to tell you it isn't. It's about how to share
power. The best politicians are those who can broker power the best. This is why,
to some people, good people like Senator Hatch and Mitt Romneyappear to sell
out. They're not selling out, they're learning the game. I don't know as much
about the grassroots level of how politcs works in the US, but to Canadians I'd
suggest that you work for a candidate (at any level), become one of their
scrutineers, see if you can get a job as a census taker, a poll clerk, whatever.
Join a political party (any one -- I don't think it matters much which one: I've
voted Social Credit, Progressive Conservative, Libertarian and Liberal) and get
active, get to know people. Join professional and charitable organizations like
the Elks, the Lions, the Kiwanis and so on.  Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Call up
your alderman, or your MLA's or MP's office and ask how you can help.


 I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to wage
 war with these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to,
 once they are driven from control of the government, as they will
 certainly try to regain control by whatever means at their disposal.

 So, once again, what do you guys see as the answer? I will accept both
 short and long term type answers so give either or both if you prefer.

 Scott

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falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler

I'm sure he does. But I was just repeating the promise as written.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:
  DC states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out
 battles for
  us.

 Doesn't God do most of His work through us?

 Jon


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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne

All be if you were to do a study you would learn that 
the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years

supply of food that the average active member.  They vote differently
too, 
so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand
before 
the Judge.


Well, it's certainly nice to know that you guys are more inspired then
the rest of the LDS voters. Too bad the Spirit hasn't touched the saints
who voted Republican. They will pay for their errors!

Repent you heathen Republicans! 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank

At 01:02 10/16/2002 +0800, Bishop Mark wrote:

  Till is tired.  Does that mean he is not worthy of awards?  8))

Now don't start that again!  Two more years, my friend.


I know, I know, but in a moment of weakness we succumbed to temptation ..


Till

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne

I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired.  They just have 
different gifts.  Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is
apparently 
not one of them.  No problem.  They are strong in other areas.  And we
who 
can clearly see these things have other areas where we are 
blind.  According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs
all 
of the gifts in his Church.  We all have something of value to bring to
the 
Church, even the lowliest among us.


I'd pay top dollar to find out who the members of the First Presidency
and the Quorum of the Twelve voted for.

Marc; who was it that you said was a Democrat? I wonder if President
Hinkley voted for Bush. Hmmm.

I'll bet he did.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne

I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired.  They just have 
different gifts.  


Yeah, the gift to elect a Gadianton Robber for President. It sure was
close. Thank you UTAH!

;-)

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Marc A. Schindler

And these are wars of expansion how, exactly? Utah taking over Colorado with the
Lord's angels at the head of legions of BYU sophomores?

Johnson's Army was a long time ago. We are not beset by the kind of situation that
the Israelites were.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 While I agree with you regarding righteous wars, I don't necessarily agree
 with your statement that Zion doesn't expand through warfare
 anymore.  For instance, why has the Lord repeatedly stated that, after we
 have done our part, He would fight our battles.

 --
 Steven Montgomery

 At 07:41 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote:
 The law is the same: a war is righteous if the Lord commands it (this is
 in the
 BoM, the DC and in numerous 1P statements). But since the meridian of
 time there
 have been few, if any, such commandments. Zion doesn't expand through warfare
 anymore. That's what's meant by fulfilling the law. You don't overthrow
 it. This
 objection (below) is similar to the reaction the Pharisees had to Jesus's
 claims
 (nothing personal against Steven).
 
 Steven Montgomery wrote:
 
   So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites
   into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down great stones from heaven
   to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to
   understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God
   himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the
   Israelites were righteous) fought their battles.
  
   --
   Steven Montgomery
  
   At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote:
   And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use
   the term
   Bible less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between
   OT and
   NT ideas).
   
   Jon Spencer wrote:
   
 John W. Redelfs wrote:
  Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy
mission,
  following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly
defeated
  and had to withdraw.  The Book of Mormon is the story of national
DEFENSE,
  not offense.  --JWR

 Your offense is my defense.

 And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive
  defenses put
 up.

 Jon

   
   --
   Marc A. Schindler
   Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
   
   The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too
  high and
   falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
   --Michelangelo Buonarroti
   
   Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
  author
   solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
   employer,
   nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
   
   ///
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 --
 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
 falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
 --Michelangelo Buonarroti
 
 Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
 solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
 employer,
 nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
 
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 --
 Steven Montgomery
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling
short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti


Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Mark Gregson


 So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a
 far greater threat.

You have got to admire Marc for his tenacity.  I vote for some kind of award for him 
for this constant call to examine just who needs to be pounded.  John is beating the 
same drum with slightly different drumsticks.  Both of them should get awards.  But 
maybe not until they get answers. 

No one has yet aswered either of them.  Everytime Marc says Why not get Pakistan?, 
the reply is Iraq is so bad and everytime John says The Book of Mormon is always 
about defense, never offense, we get, The Nephites attacked so and so, completely 
ignoring the fact that the example used  precisely supports John's argument.

I'm just happy to see that neither Marc nor John is tired.  You have to admire their 
energy.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Mark Gregson


 Till is tired.  Does that mean he is not worthy of awards?  8))

Now don't start that again!  Two more years, my friend.

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RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-15 Thread Larry Jackson

John Redelfs:

After careful consideration, Larry Jackson wrote:
I don't think we're after him because of September 11th.  I
think we're after him because our president believes he
plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us.

I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to
do so.

What about Pakistan?  Didn't they obtain a nuclear capability 
without no objection from us?  And it is not a democracy.  
Musharef is a Islamic military dictator just as Hussein is.

___

The difference in my mind is that our president does not believe 
he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon (if he doesn't already have 
one) and use it against us.

Larry Jackson

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler

And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use the term
Bible less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between OT and
NT ideas).

Jon Spencer wrote:

 John W. Redelfs wrote:
  Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy mission,
  following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly defeated
  and had to withdraw.  The Book of Mormon is the story of national DEFENSE,
  not offense.  --JWR

 Your offense is my defense.

 And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put
 up.

 Jon


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Steven Montgomery

So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites 
into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down great stones from heaven 
to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to 
understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God 
himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the 
Israelites were righteous) fought their battles.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote:
And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use 
the term
Bible less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between 
OT and
NT ideas).

Jon Spencer wrote:

  John W. Redelfs wrote:
   Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy 
 mission,
   following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly 
 defeated
   and had to withdraw.  The Book of Mormon is the story of national 
 DEFENSE,
   not offense.  --JWR
 
  Your offense is my defense.
 
  And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put
  up.
 
  Jon
 

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Steven Montgomery

While I agree with you regarding righteous wars, I don't necessarily agree 
with your statement that Zion doesn't expand through warfare 
anymore.  For instance, why has the Lord repeatedly stated that, after we 
have done our part, He would fight our battles.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 07:41 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote:
The law is the same: a war is righteous if the Lord commands it (this is 
in the
BoM, the DC and in numerous 1P statements). But since the meridian of 
time there
have been few, if any, such commandments. Zion doesn't expand through warfare
anymore. That's what's meant by fulfilling the law. You don't overthrow 
it. This
objection (below) is similar to the reaction the Pharisees had to Jesus's 
claims
(nothing personal against Steven).

Steven Montgomery wrote:

  So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites
  into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down great stones from heaven
  to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to
  understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God
  himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the
  Israelites were righteous) fought their battles.
 
  --
  Steven Montgomery
 
  At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote:
  And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use
  the term
  Bible less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between
  OT and
  NT ideas).
  
  Jon Spencer wrote:
  
John W. Redelfs wrote:
 Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy
   mission,
 following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly
   defeated
 and had to withdraw.  The Book of Mormon is the story of national
   DEFENSE,
 not offense.  --JWR
   
Your offense is my defense.
   
And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive 
 defenses put
up.
   
Jon
   
  
  --
  Marc A. Schindler
  Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
  
  The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too 
 high and
  falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
  --Michelangelo Buonarroti
  
  Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the 
 author
  solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
  employer,
  nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
  
  /// 
 //
  ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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 //
  
 
  --
  Steven Montgomery
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

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employer,
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RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread larry . jackson

John Redelfs:

And Saddam is?  What makes you think he is behind the 
attack on 9-11?  Actually, if you trace the money and arms 
back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and 
China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, 
Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling.  Maybe we 
should just cut to the chase and attack China, do you think?

___

I don't think we're after him because of September 11th.  I 
think we're after him because our president believes he 
plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us.

I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to 
do so.

On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among 
every people.  If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is 
the one we're after.

Larry Jackson
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 John Redelfs:

 And Saddam is?  What makes you think he is behind the
 attack on 9-11?  Actually, if you trace the money and arms
 back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and
 China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis,
 Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling.  Maybe we
 should just cut to the chase and attack China, do you think?

 ___

 I don't think we're after him because of September 11th.  I
 think we're after him because our president believes he
 plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us.

 I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to
 do so.


China and Russia are already nuclear powers, and while I don't think they plan on
using nuclear weapons against us, (John may disagree wrt to China, but my point
doesn't hinge on that anyway), they still represent threats in indirect ways.
Russian and Ukrainian and Kazakh nuclear scientists are a dime a dozen and Russia
can't afford to pay them anymore. Guess where they are going? And no metal
detector, no passport and no x-ray machine is going to detect what you have in
your grey matter when you cross borders. China's a threat because they may
threaten the region, but as I say, it's indirect, and in any case I don't think
they have super-regional imperialistic visions.

Pakistan is, as I keep harping about, in my opinion, at least potentially the
most dangerous nation right now to the world as a whole (this is not meant as a
slight to my Pakistani friends in the least, but it is a hard country, born out
of discord, with mistrust as a wetnurse and trained in the ways of violence and
hate), to the west as a civilization and to the United States as a nation-state.
So, I ask myself, is Bush dumb? Ill-advised? I don't think so. Which means there
has to be a reason for this war-mongering. Follow the money.


 On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among
 every people.  If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is
 the one we're after.


Bingo. And he doesn't have a capital city we can bomb. You know the saying:
generals are always fighting the last war.


 Larry Jackson

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

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RE: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't think we're after him because of September 11th.  I
think we're after him because our president believes he
plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us.

I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to
do so.

What about Pakistan?  Didn't they obtain a nuclear capability without no 
objection from us?  And it is not a democracy.  Musharef is a Islamic 
military dictator just as Hussein is.

On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among
every people.  If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is
the one we're after.

I agree.  But since we can't get to him except by repenting, there is no 
one to declare war on except his mortal agents.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
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atmosphere of freedom. --Ezra Taft Benson
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
Have anyone in mind?  Would you care to share the fruits of your 
investigations?  Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown?

How about the heads of state in Libya, Syria, Cuba, and North Korea, just 
to start the list?  How about Putin?  Is he a good friend of ours, 
then?  He is as big a gangster as any that preceded him in the 
office.  Russia has never been ruled except by murderers and thugs.

Anyway, the argument is starting to bore me.  The world is full of Bad 
Guys, and we can't kill them all.  So the vendetta against Hussein is 
hypocritical.  Bush has some secret reason for wanting to attack Iraq.  And 
I refuse to be manipulated by Bush and the media.  Our military should be 
used here at home for defending our own shores and borders, period.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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atmosphere of freedom. --Ezra Taft Benson
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler

No? Who financed the al-Qaeda. It wasn't Iraq. It was Saudi Arabians, using
Pakistan as a training base, and Afghanistan as a base of operations. Sure Iraq
probably had a hand in it -- probably every ME country except Israel and Jordan
did in one way or another. What I don't understand is this obsession with Iraq.
So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a
far greater threat.

In any case, my logic was a caricature of the logic that if Iraqis had something
to do with WTC, then bomb Baghdad. I was saying Saudis had more to do with it, so
why not bomb Saudi cities?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc Schindler:

 Larry Jackson wrote:
  It was a clear day in New York last year, too.

 When *Saudis* attacked it.

 So bomb Riyadh, Dammam, Dhahran, Taif, Jiddah,
 Mecca or Medina.

 ___

 Why?  That's not where the source of the problem is.

 Larry Jackson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Marc A. Schindler
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The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
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--Michelangelo Buonarroti

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne


John W. Redelfs wrote:
 Sadam doesn't have an ideology.  If he does, it is I'm boss, and I'll
 crush anyone who tries to tear down my power.  Quite a few world
leaders
 seem to share this ideology, even some in our own country.

Jon
Have anyone in mind?  Would you care to share the fruits of your
investigations?  Or were you just speaking generally about persons
unknown?


I was kind of wondering about this too, Jon. We have free elections in
this country and I don't hear about opposing candidates being murdered or
crushed. In this country the loosing party always steps down peaceably
and the business of running the government continues in different hands.
Even former President Bush stepped down so the slimy worm Bill Clinton
could muck up the white house chair. (Gee--that sounded bad but I'm going
to post this anyways)  

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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