Re: [ZION] Mars
I might dispute that one can only have an immature faith in this life. A perfect one, no, but mature is definitely possible for some. Stacy. At 11:10 AM 07/31/2003 -0800, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this life) then why do we use the term faith promoting experiences? Well, I personally don't use the term. But if I were to do so, I would use it to refer to spiritual experiences such as the famous burning in the bosom, and not miracles. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 10:32 PM 7/31/03 -0600, Steven Montgomery wrote: Fwiw, I asked John Pratt (Astronomer and ancient calender expert) about Mars' current brightness and its significance and here is his reply: Quote Mars will be bright but it is almost that bright every two years. That is, it is only slightly closer than usual when it is opposite from the sun. I don't think it is a sign of anything. Thanks, John /Quote So I guess that shoots my theory all to heck--doesn't it? FWIW, on this matter I agree completely with Brother Pratt. -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 05:32 AM 8/1/2003, Ronn wrote: At 10:32 PM 7/31/03 -0600, Steven Montgomery wrote: Fwiw, I asked John Pratt (Astronomer and ancient calender expert) about Mars' current brightness and its significance and here is his reply: Quote Mars will be bright but it is almost that bright every two years. That is, it is only slightly closer than usual when it is opposite from the sun. I don't think it is a sign of anything. Thanks, John /Quote So I guess that shoots my theory all to heck--doesn't it? FWIW, on this matter I agree completely with Brother Pratt. And now I agree too grin. At least I'm humble enough to admit when I've been wrong--in my quest for truth grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
Well, it depends upon John being correct. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars Fwiw, I asked John Pratt (Astronomer and ancient calender expert) about Mars' current brightness and its significance and here is his reply: Quote Mars will be bright but it is almost that bright every two years. That is, it is only slightly closer than usual when it is opposite from the sun. I don't think it is a sign of anything. Thanks, John /Quote So I guess that shoots my theory all to heck--doesn't it? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
That is true only in a static situation. We live in a ongoing, live world where both happen all of the time. If you cannot see where faith is magnified by special happenings then you are missing a great deal. If you would like me to change my comments to say that I beleive a miracle is a happening that confirms faith, then OK. But in the confirmation it also strengths and increases faith. It is true that faith preceeds the miracle, but it also follows and is stronger because of it. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 11:10 AM 7/30/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote: Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? It is interesting, is it not, that Venus stands as a bridge between the night and the day. Seems like a beautiful piece of symbolism to this old codger. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 11:36 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR Agreed. Signs follow those that believe. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 05:24 AM 7/31/2003, you wrote: At 11:10 AM 7/30/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote: Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? It is interesting, is it not, that Venus stands as a bridge between the night and the day. Seems like a beautiful piece of symbolism to this old codger. Till Hmmm. I like that term bridge. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 05:59 AM 7/31/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote: At 05:24 AM 7/31/2003, you wrote: At 11:10 AM 7/30/2003 -0600, St Steven wrote: Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? It is interesting, is it not, that Venus stands as a bridge between the night and the day. Seems like a beautiful piece of symbolism to this old codger. Till Hmmm. I like that term bridge. Yes, I chose the term carefully. Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge for us between darkness and light. It is only through him that we are able to cross the gulf. BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just before you posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's pretty impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, but that's a story for another day) Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 09:03 AM 7/31/2003, Till wrote: Yes, I chose the term carefully. Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge for us between darkness and light. It is only through him that we are able to cross the gulf. BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just before you posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's pretty impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, but that's a story for another day) Till Even more impressive when you live at 5800 feet altitude in a relatively rural area grin. Here in Enoch the night sky never ceases to amaze me. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 11:06 AM 7/31/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 09:03 AM 7/31/2003, Till wrote: Yes, I chose the term carefully. Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge for us between darkness and light. It is only through him that we are able to cross the gulf. BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just before you posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's pretty impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, but that's a story for another day) Till Even more impressive when you live at 5800 feet altitude in a relatively rural area grin. Here in Enoch the night sky never ceases to amaze me. Only 1550' here, but VERY rural. When the clouds are gone, the sky is always impressive. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
Whoops, I meant faith not miracles. George - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars That is true, although I was speaking of FAITH, not signs. If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this life) then why do we use the term faith promoting experiences? George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars At 11:36 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR Agreed. Signs follow those that believe. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
George Cobabe wrote: If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this life) then why do we use the term faith promoting experiences? Well, I personally don't use the term. But if I were to do so, I would use it to refer to spiritual experiences such as the famous burning in the bosom, and not miracles. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
At 12:10 PM 7/31/2003, you wrote: At 11:06 AM 7/31/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 09:03 AM 7/31/2003, Till wrote: Yes, I chose the term carefully. Christ does, in fact, serve as a bridge for us between darkness and light. It is only through him that we are able to cross the gulf. BTW, I saw Mars a couple mornings ago, just before you posted this original, and it was pretty impressive. (it's pretty impressive, actually, when we can see the sky through the clouds, but that's a story for another day) Till Even more impressive when you live at 5800 feet altitude in a relatively rural area grin. Here in Enoch the night sky never ceases to amaze me. Only 1550' here, but VERY rural. When the clouds are gone, the sky is always impressive. Till Our ward campout was held in an area that was over 10,000' high. Now *that* night sky was even more impressive grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The overall performance of the college graduates in the Convention of 1787 speaks forcefully for the proposition that Latin, rhetoric, philosophy, and mathematics can be a healthy fare for political heroes.Clinton Rossiter // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
I have to admit, Steve, that this is thinking outside of the box. There have been so many other times that a harbinger of war would have been appropriate that I need to ask what were the signs at those times? If heavenly bodies are truly foretellers of events, or trends, as you suggest then where are the signs that lead up to this concluding and convincing event. It would seem that other smaller signs would have suggested other events in the past. It would seem very likely that we tend to think that now is the most important sign and therefore all would testify of the events coming up. I, myself, have often been victim of this kind of thinking. While the ancients may have looked to the heavens for direction and instruction, it is not likely that there are many in today's world that would find this significant, or even noteworthy - just because not many would even ask the questions that would lead to a meaningful conclusion. Therefore it would seem that the usefulness of the sign would be diminished. On the other hand I, like you, look to all things to testify of Christ and the happenings in our world. Therefore I do not dismiss your suggestions - just need more information and background for your suggestions. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: [ZION] Mars By August 27th, the planet Mars will be at magnitude -2.9 (The lower the magnitude the brighter) and will be brighter than any star and the second brightest planet. Eclipsed in brightness only by the Sun, Moon and the planet Venus (when Venus can be seen). Since Mars can be seen at night while the planet Venus can only be seen at dawn or dusk it (Mars) is certainly the brightest object (except the Moon of course) in the nighttime sky. Furthermore, scientists say that Mars will be the brightest than its ever been in 60,000 years (which certainly means that it will shine the brightest since the fall of Adam and the Earth's temporal existence). In other words, never, since the Fall of Adam has the planet Mars shone with such brightness. Which brings up some interesting questions. Since the planets and the stars were created, not only to be of benefit to man for telling time (seasons, days and years) but also to stand as signs (Genesis 1: 14) as well (For instance, Christ is compared to the planet Venus--the bright and morning star and you'll recall the star which appeared at the birth of Christ), is there any significance to the fact that by the end of August Mars will be the brightest it has ever been in human history? Is it, in other words, a sign of the times? Here is my take on the matter (pure conjecture). The planet Mars is the Roman god of war. Mars is also red, symbolic of blood. Could the brightness of Mars could be symbolic or a harbinger of the wars that are to be poured out very shortly upon this earth? Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? These are just a few of the thoughts and questions that I've pondered the last few weeks. What do you think? Does the brightness of Mars (by the end of August) stand as a sign of the times? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL
Re: [ZION] Mars
Steven Montgomery wrote: These are just a few of the thoughts and questions that I've pondered the last few weeks. What do you think? Does the brightness of Mars (by the end of August) stand as a sign of the times? It seems possible to me, but not certain. We know that among the signs of the times are wonders in the heavens. Well, the brightness of Mars that you speak of would certainly qualify as a wonder in the heavens, but whether it is one of those that serves as a sign of the times is an unanswered question. I guess only unfolding world events and the inspiration of heaven could answer that question. I am a bit skeptical, however. Some time ago I thought the collision of a giant comet with the planet Jupiter was such a sign. It was on the cover of all the news magazines. And I think it originated the current concern in some circles that the earth could be hit by an asteroid or comet. I fully expected some great cataclysm, possible another global war. But nothing unusual happened. As a result I have given up trying to figure out such things. I have fully expected another global war, similar to but far more destructive than WWII, ever since I was a child 50 years ago, but it hasn't happened. I guess it will just happen when it happens. I no longer try to predict anything by the stars and planets. I'm waiting for an hailstorm to destroy all the crops of the earth, and a huge earthquake that is global in impact. I'm waiting for Jerusalem to once again be under siege as it has so often in the past. And I'm waiting for Jackson County to be swept off so that the temple construction can begin. These are the signs of the times I'm waiting upon. The brilliance of Mars seems rather obscure. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
Well, I guess we'll find out some day. Perhaps more information will be forthcoming. Another witness, conformable to the law of witnesses, would give this idea more credibility. Perhaps another witness along the lines of Mars reaching its peak of brightness at a significant calendrical date or something similar. I simply don't know enough about such things. I did suggest some time back to John Pratt that he do an article on this subject but I don't know whether he took my suggestion to heart. All he would commit to is that he might. -- Steven Montgomery At 11:20 AM 7/30/2003, you wrote: I have to admit, Steve, that this is thinking outside of the box. There have been so many other times that a harbinger of war would have been appropriate that I need to ask what were the signs at those times? If heavenly bodies are truly foretellers of events, or trends, as you suggest then where are the signs that lead up to this concluding and convincing event. It would seem that other smaller signs would have suggested other events in the past. It would seem very likely that we tend to think that now is the most important sign and therefore all would testify of the events coming up. I, myself, have often been victim of this kind of thinking. While the ancients may have looked to the heavens for direction and instruction, it is not likely that there are many in today's world that would find this significant, or even noteworthy - just because not many would even ask the questions that would lead to a meaningful conclusion. Therefore it would seem that the usefulness of the sign would be diminished. On the other hand I, like you, look to all things to testify of Christ and the happenings in our world. Therefore I do not dismiss your suggestions - just need more information and background for your suggestions. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: [ZION] Mars By August 27th, the planet Mars will be at magnitude -2.9 (The lower the magnitude the brighter) and will be brighter than any star and the second brightest planet. Eclipsed in brightness only by the Sun, Moon and the planet Venus (when Venus can be seen). Since Mars can be seen at night while the planet Venus can only be seen at dawn or dusk it (Mars) is certainly the brightest object (except the Moon of course) in the nighttime sky. Furthermore, scientists say that Mars will be the brightest than its ever been in 60,000 years (which certainly means that it will shine the brightest since the fall of Adam and the Earth's temporal existence). In other words, never, since the Fall of Adam has the planet Mars shone with such brightness. Which brings up some interesting questions. Since the planets and the stars were created, not only to be of benefit to man for telling time (seasons, days and years) but also to stand as signs (Genesis 1: 14) as well (For instance, Christ is compared to the planet Venus--the bright and morning star and you'll recall the star which appeared at the birth of Christ), is there any significance to the fact that by the end of August Mars will be the brightest it has ever been in human history? Is it, in other words, a sign of the times? Here is my take on the matter (pure conjecture). The planet Mars is the Roman god of war. Mars is also red, symbolic of blood. Could the brightness of Mars could be symbolic or a harbinger of the wars that are to be poured out very shortly upon this earth? Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? These are just a few of the thoughts and questions that I've pondered the last few weeks. What do you think? Does the brightness of Mars (by the end of August) stand as a sign of the times? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
Re: [ZION] Mars
Mars brightness by the end of August would certainly seem to me to qualify as a wonder in heaven. What would give this idea more significance and credibility is if August 27th happened to be a significant date in Jewish or Mormon history. Does anyone know? Did anything of religious significance happen on this particular date? -- Steven Montgomery At 04:41 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: These are just a few of the thoughts and questions that I've pondered the last few weeks. What do you think? Does the brightness of Mars (by the end of August) stand as a sign of the times? It seems possible to me, but not certain. We know that among the signs of the times are wonders in the heavens. Well, the brightness of Mars that you speak of would certainly qualify as a wonder in the heavens, but whether it is one of those that serves as a sign of the times is an unanswered question. I guess only unfolding world events and the inspiration of heaven could answer that question. I am a bit skeptical, however. Some time ago I thought the collision of a giant comet with the planet Jupiter was such a sign. It was on the cover of all the news magazines. And I think it originated the current concern in some circles that the earth could be hit by an asteroid or comet. I fully expected some great cataclysm, possible another global war. But nothing unusual happened. As a result I have given up trying to figure out such things. I have fully expected another global war, similar to but far more destructive than WWII, ever since I was a child 50 years ago, but it hasn't happened. I guess it will just happen when it happens. I no longer try to predict anything by the stars and planets. I'm waiting for an hailstorm to destroy all the crops of the earth, and a huge earthquake that is global in impact. I'm waiting for Jerusalem to once again be under siege as it has so often in the past. And I'm waiting for Jackson County to be swept off so that the temple construction can begin. These are the signs of the times I'm waiting upon. The brilliance of Mars seems rather obscure. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mars
Steven Montgomery: Mars brightness by the end of August would certainly seem to me to qualify as a wonder in heaven. What would give this idea more significance and credibility is if August 27th happened to be a significant date in Jewish or Mormon history. ___ I don't know about Jewish history, but I happen to have a little ditty called _On This Day in the Church_, put together by a quartet of Y professors, which provides the following. Born: Mary Musselman (became the wife of Peter Whitmer Sr. and mother of five Book of Mormon witnesses, and was the only woman to be shown the Book of Mormon plates.) Edward Partridge (first presiding bishop) John Whitmer (one of the eight witnesses) L. Jay Sylvester (Olympic silver medalist in 1968) as a world-class discus thrower) Spencer J. Condie (a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy) Other things that happened on this date: The organization of the first stake in North Carolina. Groundbreaking for the London England and the Taipei Taiwan Temples. The first Church area conference (which was held in Manchester, England) There is an event of stellar significance. A star representing Utah was added to the United States flag, bringing the total number of stars on the flag to forty-five. I think I would hold out for the hailstorm John mentioned. (That might have been on lds-doctrine.) Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mars
At 07:14 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery: Mars brightness by the end of August would certainly seem to me to qualify as a wonder in heaven. What would give this idea more significance and credibility is if August 27th happened to be a significant date in Jewish or Mormon history. ___ I don't know about Jewish history, but I happen to have a little ditty called _On This Day in the Church_, put together by a quartet of Y professors, which provides the following. snipped a list of seemingly unimportant or minor events in Church history Apparently your quartet of professors missed Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants. In this revelation, given August 27th 1831, the Lord, through the Prophet Joseph Smith warns that a day of wrath shall come upon the wicked and then mentions, starting with verse 7 and ending with verse 12, something interesting: And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation. Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning; But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God. Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory. Maybe its just coincidence or happenstance that Mars will shine brightest on the very date that Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants was given to the world. But then again, maybe not. Its certainly out of my jurisdiction to proclaim that there is a connection--I just find it interesting. Very Interesting. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. So it is with signs. they are important to the one that receives a witness and increased faith from what understanding they receive. That is why I dare not dismiss your question even though I think it not likely to have an impact on very many people. And of course I would not preach it in Sunday school. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Mars At 07:14 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery: Mars brightness by the end of August would certainly seem to me to qualify as a wonder in heaven. What would give this idea more significance and credibility is if August 27th happened to be a significant date in Jewish or Mormon history. ___ I don't know about Jewish history, but I happen to have a little ditty called _On This Day in the Church_, put together by a quartet of Y professors, which provides the following. snipped a list of seemingly unimportant or minor events in Church history Apparently your quartet of professors missed Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants. In this revelation, given August 27th 1831, the Lord, through the Prophet Joseph Smith warns that a day of wrath shall come upon the wicked and then mentions, starting with verse 7 and ending with verse 12, something interesting: And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation. Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning; But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God. Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory. Maybe its just coincidence or happenstance that Mars will shine brightest on the very date that Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants was given to the world. But then again, maybe not. Its certainly out of my jurisdiction to proclaim that there is a connection--I just find it interesting. Very Interesting. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks
I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. Congress is dissolved to mere skeletons and then dust. And the White House is obliterated. I can think of very little that would so improve our nation, and restore our ancient liberties. Anyway, it was just a joke. But I have dreamed of such a thing for so long, it was a sweet dream come true, even if it was just little computer animated Martians. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks
It is pretty funny, and full of little in-jokes for those familiar with early SF films. I LOVE Jack Nicholson as the President. John W. Redelfs wrote: Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. Congress is dissolved to mere skeletons and then dust. And the White House is obliterated. I can think of very little that would so improve our nation, and restore our ancient liberties. Anyway, it was just a joke. But I have dreamed of such a thing for so long, it was a sweet dream come true, even if it was just little computer animated Martians. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Mars Attacks
-John- Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. To each his own, I suppose. Michelle and I watched this some years ago, and we each thought it was one of the very worst, un-funniest, unpleasant movies we had ever had the misfortune of watching. It tried so hard to be over-the-top in cynical, gruesome humor, but instead it was mostly just unwatchable. The only reason we finished it was that it had come highly recommended by a couple of people, so we (or I) kept on saying, It _must_ get better than this. Unfortunately, it did not. Perhaps worst of all was not the grotesqueness of the humor, but its mind-numbing predictability. (NOTE: SPOILER ALERT) The funniest part of the whole movie, which merited a slight half-smile from me and an eye-roll from Michelle, was the usage of Slim Whitman music to explode the Martians' heads at the end of the movie. On the whole, pretty much a waste of my time from beginning to end. In contrast, I found _Death Becomes Her_ to be a very funny show, though the humor was so dark and gruesome that I did not think the humor was worth the experience. I wouldn't recommend the movie, but at least it was funny. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -John- Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. To each his own, I suppose. Michelle and I watched this some years ago, and we each thought it was one of the very worst, un-funniest, unpleasant movies we had ever had the misfortune of watching. It tried so hard to be over-the-top in cynical, gruesome humor, but instead it was mostly just unwatchable. campy might be the word you're searching for ;-) Or not -- chacun á son goût, and some of us revel in our poor goût... The only reason we finished it was that it had come highly recommended by a couple of people, so we (or I) kept on saying, It _must_ get better than this. Unfortunately, it did not. Perhaps worst of all was not the grotesqueness of the humor, but its mind-numbing predictability. (NOTE: SPOILER ALERT) The funniest part of the whole movie, which merited a slight half-smile from me and an eye-roll from Michelle, was the usage of Slim Whitman music to explode the Martians' heads at the end of the movie. On the whole, pretty much a waste of my time from beginning to end. Oh, and what's the character actress's name who played the old granny? She was a hoot! And a cameo by Tom Jones parodying himself -- that's even better than William Shatner. In contrast, I found _Death Becomes Her_ to be a very funny show, though the humor was so dark and gruesome that I did not think the humor was worth the experience. I wouldn't recommend the movie, but at least it was funny. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
