Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-14 Thread Scott McGee
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:25:28 -0800, Doug McGee
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 I did go to a restaurant on a Sunday back in June.  We were on vacation
 and figured we had to eat something.

Hmm, so it is ok to break the sabbath on vacation? You probably should
have bought something the night before. Course, I am just picking at you,
it isn't up to me to judge.

I always hate it when I have to travel on Sunday. Sometimes, though, it
isn't really avoidable. 

I tend to use (not abuse) the Ox in the mire philosophy. For instance,
there was a time a few months back where I had to run to the store for
something we really needed on a Sunday. I felt really bad about it, and
resolved more strongly to anticipate such needs before hand. I did go,
but I repented of my lack of forethought. Most of the time if I find I
need something on a Sunday, I just have to do without. I don't recall
what it was that was so important, but I do recall the incedent as I felt
so badly about it.

Scott
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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-14 Thread Geoff FOWLER
 Scott favored us with the following: 
I tend to use (not abuse) the Ox in the mire philosophy. For 
instance, there was a time a few months back where I had to 
run to the store for something we really needed on a Sunday. 
I felt really bad about it, and resolved more strongly to anticipate 
such needs before hand. I did go, but I repented of my lack of 
forethought. Most of the time if I find I need something on a 
Sunday, I just have to do without. I don't recall what it was 
that was so important, but I do recall the incedent as I felt
so badly about it.

Generally, I have found that if I need something on a Sunday (like an
egg or two) and cannot seem to go without it, I will go to a neighbor's
house and ask if I can borrow the item from them. I figure it gives me
chance to get to know my neighbors (and take advantage of them,
apparently - ;-), while at the same time avoid going to the store and
purchasing what I need.
 
Of course, as you said, it is best to anticipate your Sabbath day needs
and purchase / prepare them the day before.
 
Geoff

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Pres. Harold B. Lee had an interesting aphorism. He said, It's okay to rescue
your ox from the mire on Sunday. But not if you pushed him into it on Saturday
evening. (he meant: prepare yourselves for the Sabbath ahead of time to the
extent you can)

Geoff FOWLER wrote:

  Scott favored us with the following: 
 I tend to use (not abuse) the Ox in the mire philosophy. For
 instance, there was a time a few months back where I had to
 run to the store for something we really needed on a Sunday.
 I felt really bad about it, and resolved more strongly to anticipate
 such needs before hand. I did go, but I repented of my lack of
 forethought. Most of the time if I find I need something on a
 Sunday, I just have to do without. I don't recall what it was
 that was so important, but I do recall the incedent as I felt
 so badly about it.

 Generally, I have found that if I need something on a Sunday (like an
 egg or two) and cannot seem to go without it, I will go to a neighbor's
 house and ask if I can borrow the item from them. I figure it gives me
 chance to get to know my neighbors (and take advantage of them,
 apparently - ;-), while at the same time avoid going to the store and
 purchasing what I need.

 Of course, as you said, it is best to anticipate your Sabbath day needs
 and purchase / prepare them the day before.

 Geoff

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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Paul Osborne
In my opinion the more parties the better.

Stacy.

I agree. . .party on, dude!!



Yeahh! Let's all have a party!!

:-)))

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Paul Osborne
The United 
Order was voluntary, socialism isn't.  That is a pretty big difference
in 
my book.


Of course your right, John. Why didn't I think of that? 

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Mark Gregson

 In effect we've struck a devil's bargain -- raw materials and geography in turn
 for huddling under your nuclear umbrella, so your son's actually not far off the
 mark.

I'd feel much safer without the umbrella, especially since 11 September 2001.  No one 
has ever yet given me a list of the enemies who could attack Canada, let alone who 
would.  

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Dan R Allen



John:
Speaking of unlawful transfer of property, a couple of days ago my son made

an interesting observation.  He said that the USA provides a national
defense for Canada and gets Canada to pay for it by abusing trade
regulations.  I'm not sure you would agree with the first half of the
statement, but I'm sure you'd agree that the USA finds ways of sucking
Canada dry with lopsided tariffs and such.

Dan:
You mean we have to pay extra for our ginger ale?!?

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Re: [ZION] one party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Paul Osborne
Gary said:
women reproductive issues - I can't use the real term because it is
against charter, 


Yeah but we knew what you meant.

;-)

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
*Some* of that criticism of the Repubs is deserved, I think -- Bush was tight with
oil interests, which is okay, but he allowed further deregulations which basically
allowed companies to hide a lot of stuff from their shareholders.

Not that we're lily-white, either. The TSX (the Toronto Stock Exchange, and the
regulatory bodies that regulate it) allow a rather arcane manoeuvre, the details
of which I won't get into because of their complexity, which allow senior
executives to appear in annual reports to be holding stock when in fact all they
own are the votes associated with that stock -- the stock is effectively owned by
banks who have bought short positions against the stocks as backup when the
inevitable burst comes but in the meantime the managers get to vote themselves
hefty salary increases and performance bonuses. Our tax philosophy is that the
difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance is that you're allowed to
structure your affairs in such a way as to avoid paying any more tax than you have
to. Evasion, besides the usual definition, includes any manoeuvre which is set up
for the *primary* purpose of avoiding tax, however, a bit of a grey area that it
seems our tax officials are afraid of, or are underfunded, to try testing. Maybe
they're afraid of slicing the top off of most of the TSX 500 companies :-/

Dan R Allen wrote:

 Marc:
 I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws
 which
 allow for unlawful transfer of property.

 Dan:
 Oh, I agree, but on this side of the border and prior to the elections, the
 standard complaint was that the Enron debacle was the sole fault of the
 Republicans. I was merely pointing out who was supposed to be minding the
 store at the time.

 I agree with John that on most issues there isn't much difference between
 the two parties, but the Republican party does have a few redeeming planks
 left - notably the charter violation issues, while the Democratic party has
 none.

 Dan R Allen wrote:

  John W. Redelfs wrote:
 
For instance, to me a socialist is anyone who advocates government
   redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who
   don't.  Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely
  controlled
   by socialists.  But then using that definition, the Republicans are
 also
   controlled by socialists.  So what's the difference except in rhetoric?
  
 
  Marc:
  Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension
 funds
  robbed
  by the big brass
  (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree).
 
  Dan:
  But weren't those laws modified under Clinton's watch? The robberies
  certainly were...
 
 
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Jon Spencer
Then I think that ALL Utah Mormons should be ex'ed.  Hmmm - good bye
President Hinckley.

OK, so that won't work.  How about this?  Set up a booth in the malls which
will give $100 to anyone with a temple recommend.  Collect the names. After
a few weeks, ex them all!

Yes!

By the way, when I get a few minutes, I'll post some thoughts on the Sabbath
that come from (1) the only place in the Doctrine and Covenants that the
Sabbath is referenced (anyone know where that is?) and (2) the actions of
the Pharisees at the time of Christ.  (Be care when messin' with a Seminary
teacher/supervisor :-)

Jon

John W. Redelfs wrote:
 Those Utah Mormons don't seem to mind defying the Brethren when it comes
to
 shopping at the mall on Sunday, why should they pay any attention to the
 Brethren when it comes to being Republican or Democrat?

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Doug McGee
Yup, us bad old Utah Mormons..

Gosh, I haven't been to the Mall on a Sunday yet.  I must just not know what
I'm missing.  Do they have free entertainment on Sundays???

Thinking back, I don't recall the last time I was even at a grocery store or
any other kind of store on a Sunday.

I did go to a restaurant on a Sunday back in June.  We were on vacation and
figured we had to eat something.

Doug


On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:42:27 -0500 Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Then I think that ALL Utah Mormons should be
 ex'ed.  Hmmm - good bye
 President Hinckley.
 
 OK, so that won't work.  How about this?  Set
 up a booth in the malls which
 will give $100 to anyone with a temple
 recommend.  Collect the names. After
 a few weeks, ex them all!
 
 Yes!
 
 By the way, when I get a few minutes, I'll post
 some thoughts on the Sabbath
 that come from (1) the only place in the
 Doctrine and Covenants that the
 Sabbath is referenced (anyone know where that
 is?) and (2) the actions of
 the Pharisees at the time of Christ.  (Be care
 when messin' with a Seminary
 teacher/supervisor :-)
 
 Jon
 
 John W. Redelfs wrote:
  Those Utah Mormons don't seem to mind defying
 the Brethren when it comes
 to
  shopping at the mall on Sunday, why should
 they pay any attention to the
  Brethren when it comes to being Republican or
 Democrat?
 

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:

Then I think that ALL Utah Mormons should be ex'ed.  Hmmm - good bye
President Hinckley.


Are you suggesting that President Hinckley goes shopping at the mall on 
Sunday? grin

OK, so that won't work.  How about this?  Set up a booth in the malls which
will give $100 to anyone with a temple recommend.  Collect the names. After
a few weeks, ex them all!


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Doug McGee favored us with:

Yup, us bad old Utah Mormons..

Gosh, I haven't been to the Mall on a Sunday yet.  I must just not know what
I'm missing.  Do they have free entertainment on Sundays???

Thinking back, I don't recall the last time I was even at a grocery store or
any other kind of store on a Sunday.


Good on you, Doug.  According to the Old Testament, the Sabbath is the 
primary way the Lord keeps track of who his people are, or to be more 
precise, the way he lets his people be known as his people among the rest 
of his children.  The Brethren have repeatedly asked us not to shop on 
Sunday's.  Our family hasn't done it for years.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Jerry Pournelle
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RE: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Jim Cobabe
 
Perhaps the motivation behind liberal rhetoric reacting to the 
Republican domination in US politics is more instructive than all the 
supposedly moderate and centrist Democrat voices urging respect and 
tolerance for their views.  Perhaps Bill Moyers editorial gives a better 
picture of what these people believe about the Republican majority.


http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers15.html;

Bill Moyers
on Election 2002

Way back in the 1950's when I first tasted politics and journalism, 
Republicans briefly controlled the White House and Congress. With the 
exception of Joseph McCarthy and his vicious ilk, they were a reasonable 
lot, presided over by that giant war hero, Dwight Eisenhower, who was 
conservative by temperament and moderate in the use of power.   

That brand of Republican is gone. And for the first time in the memory 
of anyone alive, the entire federal government — the Congress, the 
Executive, the Judiciary — is united behind a right-wing agenda for 
which George W. Bush believes he now has a mandate. 

That mandate includes the power of the state to force pregnant women to 
give up control over their own lives. 

It includes using the taxing power to transfer wealth from working 
people to the rich. 

It includes giving corporations a free hand to eviscerate the 
environment and control the regulatory agencies meant to hold them 
accountable. 

And it includes secrecy on a scale you cannot imagine. Above all, it 
means judges with a political agenda appointed for life. If you liked 
the Supreme Court that put George W. Bush in the White House, you will 
swoon over what's coming. 

And if you like God in government, get ready for the Rapture. These 
folks don't even mind you referring to the GOP as the party of God. Why 
else would the new House Majority Leader say that the Almighty is using 
him to promote 'a Biblical worldview' in American politics? 

So it is a heady time in Washington — a heady time for piety, profits, 
and military power, all joined at the hip by ideology and money. 

Don't forget the money. It came pouring into this election, to both 
parties, from corporate America and others who expect the payback. 
Republicans outraised democrats by $184 million dollars. And came up 
with the big prize — monopoly control of the American government, and 
the power of the state to turn their ideology into the law of the land. 
Quite a bargain at any price. 

That's it for this week.

For NOW, I'm Bill Moyers. 


 

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
We hicks out here in the stayx don't shop on Sundays (speaking for me and my
house, anywho). I won't even put gas in the car on Sunday. We always make sure
there's enough gas in the cars on Saturday so that whoever is taking a vehicle
into Edmonton Monday morning has enough.

Doug McGee wrote:

 Yup, us bad old Utah Mormons..

 Gosh, I haven't been to the Mall on a Sunday yet.  I must just not know what
 I'm missing.  Do they have free entertainment on Sundays???

 Thinking back, I don't recall the last time I was even at a grocery store or
 any other kind of store on a Sunday.

 I did go to a restaurant on a Sunday back in June.  We were on vacation and
 figured we had to eat something.

 Doug

 On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:42:27 -0500 Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  Then I think that ALL Utah Mormons should be
  ex'ed.  Hmmm - good bye
  President Hinckley.
 
  OK, so that won't work.  How about this?  Set
  up a booth in the malls which
  will give $100 to anyone with a temple
  recommend.  Collect the names. After
  a few weeks, ex them all!
 
  Yes!
 
  By the way, when I get a few minutes, I'll post
  some thoughts on the Sabbath
  that come from (1) the only place in the
  Doctrine and Covenants that the
  Sabbath is referenced (anyone know where that
  is?) and (2) the actions of
  the Pharisees at the time of Christ.  (Be care
  when messin' with a Seminary
  teacher/supervisor :-)
 
  Jon
 
  John W. Redelfs wrote:
   Those Utah Mormons don't seem to mind defying
  the Brethren when it comes
  to
   shopping at the mall on Sunday, why should
  they pay any attention to the
   Brethren when it comes to being Republican or
  Democrat?
 
 
 //
  ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
  ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
  ///
 
 /
 
 
 

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himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stacy Smith
I think what everyone means by socialists are the people informally who 
believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone 
regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to 
the Communist party or groups thereof.  I think this needs to be clarified 
somewhat.

Stacy.

At 10:31 AM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:

Hello, my name is Irwin Delay. I recently joined the list. Although I am not
a Latter-day Saint, I have been reading LDS literature for the past three
years. Also, I am engaged to a Latter-day Saint.

I must respond to the statements of Gerald Smith. Let me first say I am an
unapologetic, flaming liberal. I do not think the Democratic party is
controlled by the socialist. Also, the problem I have with the idea of
states' rights is the fact of what happened to African Americans forty years
ago. Were blacks in the south expected to migrate en masse to the north to
escape segregation? A strong federal government is a must in order to
protect the rights of the minority.
Irwin

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Irwin Delay
In a previous post, Stacy Smith wrote, I think what everyone means by
socialists are the people informally who
believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone
regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to
the Communist party or groups thereof.  I think this needs to be clarified
somewhat.

Stacy.

Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be
corrected. (grin)

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 09:42 11/12/2002 -0800, Stacy wrote:

I think what everyone means by socialists are the people informally who 
believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone 
regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong 
to the Communist party or groups thereof.  I think this needs to be 
clarified somewhat.


Here in Ithaca it means that the government will rock everybody's cradle to 
put them to sleep.  That is as long as you don't say anything against their 
little pet agendae, such as reproductive rights or s**ual preference 
rights.  Actually, not only that, you need to chant their mantra with them 
as they sing the lullaby.

Till the disgusted  who will not carry this discussion any further down 
this path

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Irwin Delay favored us with:

Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be
corrected. (grin)


After you are married, you will get all the correction you need. grin  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Gary Smith wrote:

 I think the problem in a one party system is shown historically. The
 South became polarized to the Democratic party in the 1850s, with other
 parties being totally squeezed out (Republicans, Whigs, Know-Nothings,
 etc)

Well, actually the Know-Nothings became known as Southern Baptists, but that's
another story ;-)

 . This one party system then allowed a gradual radicalization of the
 one system.  Without balance, they ended up driving a wedge between
 themselves and the Union (I recognize the Union wasn't perfect, either.
 However one didn't see secession efforts by disgruntled states in the
 north).

 We see this in France's Revolution, also. They started with a wide
 variety of parties, from kingmen to jacobins (and a few parties even more
 radical than they). But the right wing was eliminated over a couple
 years, after which the centrists (Garondians) were wiped out, leaving
 only the one side to run amok.


And you probably know the term radical did not have the same meaning then as
now. It comes from Latin radix, meaning root, and meant those who tried to get
at the root of a problem.


 The Democrats are in trouble, because many of them have become
 socialists. Utah doesn't need a socialist party. It does need a two party
 system, which means either they need to revive and recover the Democratic
 party, or they need to quickly get behind a second party. A one party
 system gives too much power to a small cadre of politicians. This opens
 the door to abuse of power.

 It is okay if one party is conservative and the other is
 moderate/centrist.


Or even better yet, two open tent parties which are indistinguishable
ideologically. We really do live in a post-ideology world, and ideology-based
politics will not succeed. People need to learn the hard lesson that politics is
about how to broker power. And politicians are like underwear: they need to be
changed periodically.

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Yeah, fundamentalists are taking control all over the place. Pretty sad, isn't it?

Jim Cobabe wrote:


 Perhaps the motivation behind liberal rhetoric reacting to the
 Republican domination in US politics is more instructive than all the
 supposedly moderate and centrist Democrat voices urging respect and
 tolerance for their views.  Perhaps Bill Moyers editorial gives a better
 picture of what these people believe about the Republican majority.

 http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers15.html;

 Bill Moyers
 on Election 2002

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RE: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Irwin-
 Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and
 I need to be corrected. (grin)

-John-
 After you are married, you will get all the correction you need.

That's what I thought at first, but Michelle informs me that this is a 
slanderous falsehood.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stacy Smith
In my opinion the more parties the better.

Stacy.

At 07:00 AM 11/12/2002 -0900, you wrote:


After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

I think the problem in a one party system is shown historically. The
South became polarized to the Democratic party in the 1850s, with other
parties being totally squeezed out (Republicans, Whigs, Know-Nothings,
etc). This one party system then allowed a gradual radicalization of the
one system.  Without balance, they ended up driving a wedge between
themselves and the Union (I recognize the Union wasn't perfect, either.
However one didn't see secession efforts by disgruntled states in the
north).


I've been thinking of becoming a Democrat.  I can't see a nickle's worth 
of difference between Democrats and Republicans except in their 
rhetoric.  They both vote the same wrong way on the issues that matter to 
me.  And since I never vote for the candidate of either party, why not be 
a Democrat?  Who knows, it might help me get along with Marc. grin

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Well said, and welcome to the list, Irwin.

Irwin Delay wrote:

 Hello, my name is Irwin Delay. I recently joined the list. Although I am not
 a Latter-day Saint, I have been reading LDS literature for the past three
 years. Also, I am engaged to a Latter-day Saint.

 I must respond to the statements of Gerald Smith. Let me first say I am an
 unapologetic, flaming liberal. I do not think the Democratic party is
 controlled by the socialist. Also, the problem I have with the idea of
 states' rights is the fact of what happened to African Americans forty years
 ago. Were blacks in the south expected to migrate en masse to the north to
 escape segregation? A strong federal government is a must in order to
 protect the rights of the minority.
 Irwin

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 11:42 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:


And politicians are like underwear: they need to be
changed periodically.




And dunked in suds and hung out to dry.   (or would taken to the cleaners 
be better?    no, that's what they do to us)


Till the ever watchful

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 11:00 11/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:

In my opinion the more parties the better.



YES!!!  the more the merrier.  Now who's bringing the cookies?   the 
green jello



Till the party animal

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler


John W. Redelfs wrote:

  For instance, to me a socialist is anyone who advocates government
 redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who
 don't.  Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely controlled
 by socialists.  But then using that definition, the Republicans are also
 controlled by socialists.  So what's the difference except in rhetoric?


Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds robbed
by the big brass
(sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree).

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Paul Osborne
What I read into Elder Jensen's article is if the Democratic party isn't
what we want it to be, then perhaps if enough of us were to switch over
to it, we could change it for the better. We'd kick the socialists out
of
it and into the Green Party (or other socialist party of one's choice),
and create a moderate Democratic party.


This sounds like a very good idea to me. 

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Paul Osborne
Thinking back, I don't recall the last time I was even at a grocery
store or
any other kind of store on a Sunday.


I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty.
But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my
conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those
loopholes. ;-)

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stacy Smith
Well, I had a rather different idea about what kind of parties to have.  Lol.

Stacy.

At 02:18 PM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:


At 11:00 11/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:

In my opinion the more parties the better.



YES!!!  the more the merrier.  Now who's bringing the cookies?   the 
green jello



Till the party animal

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Paul Osborne
I've been thinking of becoming a Democrat.  I can't see a nickle's worth
of 
difference between Democrats and Republicans except in their 
rhetoric.  They both vote the same wrong way on the issues that matter
to 
me.  And since I never vote for the candidate of either party, why not
be a 
Democrat?  Who knows, it might help me get along with Marc. grin


My wife and I are thinking about it too. Maybe we can work to change some
of the issues and make it a better party. I'm serious about this. I
really don't like politics but maybe there is something I can do to
contribute to the cause. Let me know what *you* decide John. 

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Paul Osborne

Irwin wrote,

A strong federal government is a must in order to
protect the rights of the minority.


I agree, just so long as they don't step on my right while in the process
of protecting others. ;-)

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Stacy Smith
I would refrain from making such comments on the list in case certain 
persons come on this list that are known between us.  I wasn't trying to 
correct you but only giving my views on the subject for the list.  Do I 
believe everyone should have free health care?  Too expensive in my 
opinion.  The disabled should have it insofar as they are able to live in a 
free society and having liberty.  Everyone?  No.

Stacy.

At 12:36 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:

In a previous post, Stacy Smith wrote, I think what everyone means by
socialists are the people informally who
believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone
regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to
the Communist party or groups thereof.  I think this needs to be clarified
somewhat.

Stacy.

Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be
corrected. (grin)

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Geoff FOWLER
 Paul wrote: 
I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel
guilty.
But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my
conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love
those
loopholes. ;-)

I don't consider them loopholes at all. When I started working for an
Internet-based company in early 2000, I was alone responsible for
their entire IT operation. There was a time when I worked 6 days a week,
and then had to come in by 1:00 AM onMonday mornings to complete my work
before my colleagues arrived later that morning. I didn't want to be the
one holding things up, and we were growing rapidly.
 
With my wife's encouragement I was able to get them to hire a few
more people so that I could go back to a normal work week. I believe
that I was blessed for not working on Sunday, even though I had to come
in pretty early those few Mondays. :). While the company itself inflated
and deflated with the rest of the dot-bombs, I was not laid off and left
of my own free will only a couple of months ago. Given the number of
people who were let go (many of whom were much more qualified than I
was), I consider this a tremendous blessing and am very grateful for
it.
 
Geoff


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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 12:46 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:

This is a concept we're well acquainted with in Canada, where we separate 
the Head
of State from Head of Government. The Head of State (the husband) is purely
ceremonial and only really needed in times of crisis ;-)



You mean Red was giving me bad advice, about the handsome/handy relationship.


Till the disillusioned

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Dan R Allen



Irwin wrote,

A strong federal government is a must in order to
protect the rights of the minority.


Paul:
I agree, just so long as they don't step on my right while in the process
of protecting others. ;-)

Dan:
A strong federal government is also a must in order to eliminate the rights
of all.

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Paul Osborne
JWR said:
I am opposed to the concept of legal plunder which is 
using the law to steal from one man and give it to another.  And the 
Democrats have pretty much built their party on that concept.


Plunder?? Can we read about this in the DC? Consecration? United Order?
Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul
Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in
wealth. Right? 

I'll take a bucket of wheat please.

grin

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension 
funds robbed
by the big brass (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John 
would actually agree).

You bet I do.  That's called corporate welfare, and is just as disgusting 
as any other kind, even more so because the big weenies already sleep in 
nice beds and beautiful homes.  Brigham Young had some interesting things 
to say about the distribution of wealth in a corrupt society.  We happened 
to go over them last night in our Family Home Evening.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must NOT be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with:

Plunder?? Can we read about this in the DC? Consecration? United Order?
Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul
Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in
wealth. Right?


If you need anything, just let me know Paul, and I'll do what I 
can.  Besides, using the power of government to steal from the rich and 
give to the poor is a bit different from the United Order.  The United 
Order was voluntary, socialism isn't.  That is a pretty big difference in 
my book.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to
me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Well, you'll note how most of his projects end up.

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 At 12:46 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:
 This is a concept we're well acquainted with in Canada, where we separate
 the Head
 of State from Head of Government. The Head of State (the husband) is purely
 ceremonial and only really needed in times of crisis ;-)

 You mean Red was giving me bad advice, about the handsome/handy relationship.

 Till the disillusioned


--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which
allow for unlawful transfer of property.

Dan R Allen wrote:

 John W. Redelfs wrote:

   For instance, to me a socialist is anyone who advocates government
  redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who
  don't.  Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely
 controlled
  by socialists.  But then using that definition, the Republicans are also
  controlled by socialists.  So what's the difference except in rhetoric?
 

 Marc:
 Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds
 robbed
 by the big brass
 (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree).

 Dan:
 But weren't those laws modified under Clinton's watch? The robberies
 certainly were...

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which
allow for unlawful transfer of property.


Speaking of unlawful transfer of property, a couple of days ago my son made 
an interesting observation.  He said that the USA provides a national 
defense for Canada and gets Canada to pay for it by abusing trade 
regulations.  I'm not sure you would agree with the first half of the 
statement, but I'm sure you'd agree that the USA finds ways of sucking 
Canada dry with lopsided tariffs and such.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals --Uncle Bob
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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Jon Spencer
But how do you know that then is not now?

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote:

Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the
counsel
we're given now.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early
 Church leaders.  There will be only one party that follows the Lord.
 Everyone else will follow the adversary.  Ultimately this is the only
 partisan association that matters.  While this may not be the pattern
 for this day, the time is near at hand.


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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Jon Spencer
Party animal!

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

 In my opinion the more parties the better.
 

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Rick Mathis
At 07:25 AM 11/12/2002 -0800, Doug wrote:

Yup, us bad old Utah Mormons..


Don't be redundant.

Rick Mathis

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Jon Spencer
I have heard that one of the most profitable times for Dominos in Provo is
the 12 am shift on Monday morning.

Jon

Paul Osborne wrote:

 I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty.
 But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my
 conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those
 loopholes. ;-)

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Re: [ZION] One party rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
In effect we've struck a devil's bargain -- raw materials and geography in turn
for huddling under your nuclear umbrella, so your son's actually not far off the
mark.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
 I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which
 allow for unlawful transfer of property.

 Speaking of unlawful transfer of property, a couple of days ago my son made
 an interesting observation.  He said that the USA provides a national
 defense for Canada and gets Canada to pay for it by abusing trade
 regulations.  I'm not sure you would agree with the first half of the
 statement, but I'm sure you'd agree that the USA finds ways of sucking
 Canada dry with lopsided tariffs and such.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
 intellectuals --Uncle Bob
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

 //
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-12 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I give up. You have indeed trapped me in a time warp. Just don't mess up the 31st
century, where I come from.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 But how do you know that then is not now?

 Jon

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:

 Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the
 counsel
 we're given now.

 Jim Cobabe wrote:

  One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early
  Church leaders.  There will be only one party that follows the Lord.
  Everyone else will follow the adversary.  Ultimately this is the only
  partisan association that matters.  While this may not be the pattern
  for this day, the time is near at hand.
 

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after all. This
is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been sent out
to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One
party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

[emphasis added in bold red]

Salt Lake Tribune
Types: Utah On-Line
Published: 05/03/1998
Page: A1
Keywords: Web Edition; UT; Mormon Church General Authorities;
Politics-Politicians; Social Issues; Communities
Transcript of Marlin Jensen Interview
Byline: Salt Lake Tribune
 Editor's Note: The following is a transcript of a Salt Lake Tribune
interview, conducted on April 23, 1998, with Marlin Jensen of the 1st Quorum of
the Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Marlin is also a
member of the LDS church's Public Affairs Committee.
  (Jensen's comments have been transcribed verbatim. The Tribune's questions
were edited for clarity
  and concision.)
   The Salt Lake Tribune: Earlier this year, the Mormon Church First
Presidency issued a statement encouraging  members not only to actively
participate in politics, but to run for elected office. What was the motivation?

   Marlin Jensen: ``I think the letter went to stake presidents, I believe
just in the United States. But we even gave some thought and it was discussed how
to do something on a worldwide basis because I think the perception that our
leaders had is that as individual church members we're maybe not quite living up
to our obligation to be good citizens. Not just voting, but actually participating
in the functions of government on an appointed and an elected basis.

 So I think the letter reflects a general concern worldwide that it is really
part of our religion to be good citizens and to do our share in the community. And
its probably related doctrinally in a way to the idea that we're not just to build
up the kingdom of God but we're also to establish his righteousness.

 So that there's a need in order for the gospel to be preached and carried off
to all the world to have an environment of righteousness in which that can occur.
And, in a word, without a good neighborhood and a good community it's very
difficult to have a good family. So good government is very much in the best
interests of us as a church and in the work we have to preach the gospel. So that
I think would have been the general concern.

  But I think frankly there was a more specific concern related to the state
of Utah as well that prompted the initial discussion of this.

 It seems like historically -- and maybe it had to do with our more rural
character at the time, but it seems (and I have thought about this in the little
community where I was raised in Huntsville) that the people of the church, the
main leaders, the main people in the church in that period maybe 40 or 50 years
ago, were people of affairs. They were people who did lead the community as well
as the church. Of course, there was a much greater homogeneity in those days and
we're much more diverse now. But I think there's just a feeling that we need to be
more active and more visible and reach out more in a civic way than we've been
doing.

  Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic
Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a
factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling that that
is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But
certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the
democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run.

  We are locally and I think there is a feeling that even nationally as a
church, it's not in our best interest to be known as a one-party church. The
national fortunes of the parties ebb and flow. Whereas the Republicans may clearly
have the upper hand today in another 10 years they may not. So there are just so
many reasons I think to have a Picturerobust multi-party systemPicture going
locally and nationally for us, as well as the international responsibilities we
feel -- that's at the heart of this as well.''

  Tribune: Democrats, only half-jokingly, say it may be time for the LDS
Church to once again draw a line down the middle of ward houses and assign
parties.

  Jensen: ``I think if you look at the letter you'll notice that there's a
reference here to urging men and women to be willing to serve -- as you were
mentioning -- on school boards, in city and county councils and commissions, state
legislatures and other high offices of either election or appointment, including
involvement in the political party of their choice. I think that really was an
attempt, is an attempt on the part of the First Presidency to indicate that part
of being a good Latter-day Saint would be to be politically active in a party of
our choice. That we just can't sit 

Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote:


  Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the 
Democratic
Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is 
almost not a
factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling 
that that
is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But
certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the
democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run.

Political parties come and go.  Shortly after the U.S. was founded there 
were the Whigs and the Federalists. So now we have Republicans and 
Democrats--so what? The main point Elder Jensen was making imo is the 
dialogue. If the Democratic party goes by the wayside there will always 
be another party willing to step in and take its place.


  We are locally and I think there is a feeling that even nationally as a
church, it's not in our best interest to be known as a one-party church. The
national fortunes of the parties ebb and flow. Whereas the Republicans may 
clearly
have the upper hand today in another 10 years they may not. So there are 
just so
many reasons I think to have a Picturerobust multi-party systemPicture 
going
locally and nationally for us, as well as the international 
responsibilities we
feel -- that's at the heart of this as well.''

Note here he states, multi-party system, not necessarily the elitist two 
party system we have now. The point is the Democratic Party is losing 
because they've lost touch with the common voter. I don't like a one-party 
dominance either--let all parties participate and give them equal chances, 
but don't worship before the altar of Democratic Party politics.


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stacy Smith
Very good!

Stacy.

At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:


I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after 
all. This
is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been 
sent out
to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One
party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

[emphasis added in bold red]

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RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc-
 One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. 
Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? The 
leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS 
Republicans? Please clarify your accusation, so I can tell whether I and 
my family are included in it.

 Tribune: What is the attitude of church leaders toward the
 lingering sentiment among some Mormons -- apparently stemming
 back to comments made by former LDS President Ezra Taft Benson
 -- that it is difficult to be a good LDS member and a Democrat?

I recall that statement as being liberal Democrat, though of course I 
could be mistaken. But even if I am correct, this is after all the 
Tribune we're talking about, so it's rather naive to expect truth or 
balance.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe

One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early 
Church leaders.  There will be only one party that follows the Lord.  
Everyone else will follow the adversary.  Ultimately this is the only 
partisan association that matters.  While this may not be the pattern 
for this day, the time is near at hand.

Excerpt from Proclamation of the Twelve, April 6, 1845

As this work progresses in its onward course, and becomes more and more 
an object of political and religious interest and excitement, no king, 
ruler, or subject, no community or individual, will stand neutral. All 
will at length be influenced by one spirit or the other; and will take 
sides either for or against the kingdom of God, and the fulfillment of 
the prophets, in the great restoration and return of his long dispersed 
covenant people.

Some will act the part of the venerable Jethro, the father-in-law of 
Moses; or the noble Cyrus; and will aid and bless the people of God; or 
like Ruth, the Moabitess, will forsake their people and their kindred 
and country, and will say to the Saints, or to Israel: This people 
shall be my people, and their God my God. While others will walk in the 
footsteps of a Pharaoh, or a Balak, and will harden their hearts, and 
fight against God, and seek to destroy his people. These will commune 
with priests and prophets who love the wages of unrighteousness; and 
who, like Balaam, will seek to curse, or to find enchantments against 
Israel.

You cannot therefore stand as idle and disinterested spectators of the 
scenes and events which are calculated in their very nature to reduce 
all nations and creeds to one political and religious standard, and thus 
put an end to Babel forms and names, and to strife and war. You will, 
therefore, either be led by the good Spirit to cast in your lot, and to 
take a lively interest with the Saints of the Most High, and the 
covenant people of the Lord, or on the other hand, you will become their 
inveterate enemy, and oppose them by every means in your power.


 (James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church 
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City: 
Bookcraft, 1965-75), 1: 257.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

I guess I should repost the interview with Pres. Marlin K. Jensen after 
all. This
is the interview where he discusses and clarifies a letter that had been 
sent out
to stake presidents to be read in all wards in at least the United States. One
party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

Those Utah Mormons don't seem to mind defying the Brethren when it comes to 
shopping at the mall on Sunday, why should they pay any attention to the 
Brethren when it comes to being Republican or Democrat?


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote:

Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the
  Democratic
 Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is
 almost not a
 factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling
 that that
 is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But
 certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the
 democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run.

 Political parties come and go.  Shortly after the U.S. was founded there
 were the Whigs and the Federalists. So now we have Republicans and
 Democrats--so what? The main point Elder Jensen was making imo is the
 dialogue. If the Democratic party goes by the wayside there will always
 be another party willing to step in and take its place.


And that's fair enough. It was the lack of creative tension you have when there's
more than one party, and also the fact that the Church needs to spread its bets,
so to speak, that I think are their main concerns.  I don't think this is about
Democrats and Repubs. per se.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -Marc-
  One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren.

 Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals.
 Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren?

Well, for starters the Republican congressman who publicly criticized Pres.
Jensen for his remarks. Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my
sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies that belief in x is
in defiance of y. I think that's pretty standard English.

 The
 leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS
 Republicans? Please clarify your accusation, so I can tell whether I and
 my family are included in it.

  Tribune: What is the attitude of church leaders toward the
  lingering sentiment among some Mormons -- apparently stemming
  back to comments made by former LDS President Ezra Taft Benson
  -- that it is difficult to be a good LDS member and a Democrat?

 I recall that statement as being liberal Democrat, though of course I
 could be mistaken. But even if I am correct, this is after all the
 Tribune we're talking about, so it's rather naive to expect truth or
 balance.


And I trust you read Pres. Jensen's answer to the question?

I think the reason Pres. Jensen was assigned to talk to the Trib and not the D.N.
was precisely because of the Trib's reputation; it was sending Daniel into the
lion's den, and is all the more useful, politically, for that reason. That is, no
one can accuse him of taking only soft ball lob shots.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

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Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the counsel
we're given now.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early
 Church leaders.  There will be only one party that follows the Lord.
 Everyone else will follow the adversary.  Ultimately this is the only
 partisan association that matters.  While this may not be the pattern
 for this day, the time is near at hand.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc-
 [Previously] One party domination is in direct defiance of the
 Brethren.
 [Now] Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my
 sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies
 that belief in x is in defiance of y.

Okay, that's reasonable. I don't agree with it, but it's much different 
from (and more inoffensive than) the meaning I originally inferred from 
your words.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?

2002-11-11 Thread Jim Cobabe

I understand that the Church does not endorse any political policy, 
except in cases where a moral issue is involved.  There is a strong 
effort to avoid the suggestion that the platform of a particular 
political party represents or has the unilateral backing of the Church.  
This has been the policy of the Church as long as I have been aware.

I do not recall any general Church statments from the First Presidency 
that have mentioned any particular concern or direction with regard to 
partisan politics.  It has long been my impression that we should 
deliberate on important political matters independent of any partisan 
considerations.  To fulfill this directive Church members are encouraged 
to be personally involved in local politics.  That has been the extent 
of the counsel.

Elder Jensen, a Church General Authority and Utah Democrat, in a 
statement to the media, reemphasized this point.  He also shared a 
personal concern of some of the brethren about the possible unwanted 
ill effects stemming from lack of political diversity in the Utah 
political scene.  He expressed the thought that it was unfortunate for 
Church members to have unjustified negative impressions of the 
Democratic party, since some good people choose to affiliate therein.h 
He did not, however, suggest in any way for members to support 
Democratic partisan policy, split themselves evenly between parties, 
join the Democrats, or vote for Democrat candidates, since that would 
have contradicted other points of his statement, and the long-standing 
general counsel.  Elder Jensen did not elaborate about which brethren 
he was referring to, nor did he develop this thought much further, and I 
don't recall any other statements from the Church augmenting his brief 
reference.

What I got from his statement was that it's just fine for Church members 
to be Democrats, if they so choose.  And it's also fine if they choose 
something else.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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